It's why I feel like A1 is such an inconsequential film in the series.
It feels like a cartoon, and not a great one but one that is currently getting dated quickly. Even AoU managed some kind of sense of threat and dire conditions, and that was furthered by Civil War really hitting home that they didn't save everyone.
The way Marvel was trying to construct things seemed fundamentally at odds with Whedon glossing over the bad shit that happened in typical superhero fashion. It's why I feel the Russo's just do it better than Whedon did it with their 2 films. You get that sense of danger out of the things happening that felt visceral as opposed to tacked on.
Whedon wasn't glossing over bad shit, though. There was no casualty count at the end of the film. It was everything after that mentioned it that adjusted the death toll down a ridiculous amount. (I think Daredevil season 1 said that since The Incident, a little over 300 people were dead; it wasn't until Civil War that you get that laugh-worthy number of 74.)
What's the specific wording on that stuff anyway? I wonder if it might be explained causulties/deaths being different. Or maybe the Civil War stats are just the ones that can be directly connected to the Avengers. Like, there's only six of them so if some Chitauri murdered somebody on teh other side of town, they really can't pin that one on the Avengers.
I really can't think that Avengers would have been any better of a movie if like, it spent more time dwelling on largescale civilian casualties
Like, the movie is fun. It's meant to be fun. It's OK for it to be fun! Thousands of dead civilians littering a ruined cityscape? Not fun!
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I dunno, thinking about it again, the Avengers spend an awful lot of time saving people, I can see how maybe those super low numbers make sense.
Did any buildings actually even fall in A1? I think maybe they didn't have any NYC buildings fall for both obvious reasons and because the Avengers beat the shit out of every giant worm thing they could find before that happened.
I dunno, thinking about it again, the Avengers spend an awful lot of time saving people, I can see how maybe those super low numbers make sense.
Did any buildings actually even fall in A1? I think maybe they didn't have any NYC buildings fall for both obvious reasons and because the Avengers beat the shit out of every giant worm thing they could find before that happened.
I think the last active giant worm thing fell on top of a mid-size building when Tony blew the mothership?
I dunno, thinking about it again, the Avengers spend an awful lot of time saving people, I can see how maybe those super low numbers make sense.
Did any buildings actually even fall in A1? I think maybe they didn't have any NYC buildings fall for both obvious reasons and because the Avengers beat the shit out of every giant worm thing they could find before that happened.
I think the last active giant worm thing fell on top of a mid-size building when Tony blew the mothership?
It does, but other than ruining their air conditioning and facade, I don't know if it does much more than that, the building seemed to hold it up.
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
It'd drop a bunch of rubble onto the streets below, which seemed to be happening pretty consistently with the Leviathans clipping buildings and the Hulk jumping through em...
Oh brilliant
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I dunno, thinking about it again, the Avengers spend an awful lot of time saving people, I can see how maybe those super low numbers make sense.
Did any buildings actually even fall in A1? I think maybe they didn't have any NYC buildings fall for both obvious reasons and because the Avengers beat the shit out of every giant worm thing they could find before that happened.
I think the last active giant worm thing fell on top of a mid-size building when Tony blew the mothership?
It'd drop a bunch of rubble onto the streets below, which seemed to be happening pretty consistently with the Leviathans clipping buildings and the Hulk jumping through em...
They blow up a shit-ton of cars, too, but there doesn't seem to be anybody in them. Like, that's kinda the thing with A1, after Cap orders the NYPD around, NYC is suddenly super vacant.
If giant flying alien dragons invaded New York City there'd be ten thousand dead from heart attacks and strokes and broken necks from slipping and falling in all the terror piss
to be fair, Rogers specifically had the police focus on evacuating civilians pretty quick, so at least the effort was made by both the writer/director to show the Avengers care. It was also part of Rogers plan to keep the chitauri focused on them.
I’d say at least a few hundred deaths though.
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If giant flying alien dragons invaded New York City there'd be ten thousand dead from heart attacks and strokes and broken necks from slipping and falling in all the terror piss
New Yorkers have a legit claim to being able to keep their heads together and survive while horrible shit happens in their city.
Thank you for the 9/11 terror attack reference, it's not a fun jokey chat about superheroes until someone brings up the 9/11 terror attack, like when the X-men have fun with the holocaust
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I really can't think that Avengers would have been any better of a movie if like, it spent more time dwelling on largescale civilian casualties
Like, the movie is fun. It's meant to be fun. It's OK for it to be fun! Thousands of dead civilians littering a ruined cityscape? Not fun!
As is demonstrated by many a movie, i.e. Raiders of the Lost Ark, Back to the Future,
Fun doesn't have to be toothless. You don't need to show strewn corpses among the streets to have a sense of actual stakes. But going out of your way to sanitize it makes it feel hollow.
Major conflicts in dense urban areas and the likely massive death tolls they can inflict is one of the reasons why I've always really admired Parasite Eve 1 when the authorities evacuate New York city in response to what goes down before there is any attempt to escalate the conflict. Sure, it isn't practical to do so in many movies but having a major urban center being turned into what is effectively a warzone not infrequently in superhero/villain conflicts is the type of thing that one would expect a massive reaction to in how they are handled and how people choose to live.
Thank you for the 9/11 terror attack reference, it's not a fun jokey chat about superheroes until someone brings up the 9/11 terror attack, like when the X-men have fun with the holocaust
to be fair, Rogers specifically had the police focus on evacuating civilians pretty quick, so at least the effort was made by both the writer/director to show the Avengers care. It was also part of Rogers plan to keep the chitauri focused on them.
I’d say at least a few hundred deaths though.
Not just that but he told them to specifically get people out by underground routes, away from the airborne attackers. Also, if you pay attention, he tells the police how far out to set their perimeter, and then sets Tony's "turn it back or turn it to ash" radius shorter to keep the police out of the fight, and the main objective was to keep the fight focused on the Avengers, be it by containment, disruption, evacuation, or just racking up body counts and being the only plausible threats in the area. The strategy was built around minimizing casualties.
I mean, yeah, if the death toll wasn't in the thousands I'd call bullshit, but "thousands of people died," is not the same thing as, "thousands of people died because of the Avengers," it's the same as, "tens of thousands didn't die because of the Avengers."
I don't think the movie needed more destruction or would have been better with it. I also don't necessarily need to have the movie even offhandedly mention it. But at the same time, hearing that apparently only 70 people died in all of that mayhem, it pulls me out of the universe a little bit. Just... woah that's it?!
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I don't think the movie needed more destruction or would have been better with it. I also don't necessarily need to have the movie even offhandedly mention it. But at the same time, hearing that apparently only 70 people died in all of that mayhem, it pulls me out of the universe a little bit. Just... woah that's it?!
Yeah that mistake is on the Civil War script, not Avengers. I'm guessing they suppressed the other numbers because it might be weird if 3,000 people died in New York, 600 in DC, another 800 in Sokovia, and then it's the 12 people in Lagos that finally pushed the Accords to the table.
I don't think the movie needed more destruction or would have been better with it. I also don't necessarily need to have the movie even offhandedly mention it. But at the same time, hearing that apparently only 70 people died in all of that mayhem, it pulls me out of the universe a little bit. Just... woah that's it?!
Not the original movie's fault just Marvel overreacting to Man of Steel commentary.
I don't think that's true. Maybe the Punisher, because his stories are about violence as much as they feature it, but Widow and the Winter Soldier? They're super-spies or super-soldiers, there's no obvious need for making their adventures bloodier than a James Bond movie. You don't need to make the movies gory to 'dig into their stories'. The point of their superhero movie story doesn't have to be to shock the audience with horrible depictions of violence and the REALNESS of violence. They're escapist fun.
Wolverine is one of those characters where you can do either way. You can do Logan or you can do him as he is in X-2. He works great in both movies. X-23 I dunno.
After "Wolverine" I just got tired of seeing Logan stab and slice yet never get a drop of blood on his claws, and it never creating lasting effects of the bodies. It just really pulled me out of my suspension of disbelief.
That reminds me of how I got pulled out of the first Avengers when the city got attacked, my suspension of disbelief took a blow when the civilians were seemingly all somehow avoiding dying on screen. It doesn't make the movie a worse film for me, just doesn't make it a better one for me by showing some harrowing scenes that would have been more up my dark alley.
Civil War later says a bunch of people died but we just didn't really see that. Later Marvel movies do so much more dark stuff than the first that really sell for me that their world is a ridiculously dangerous place, especially for the civilians, that bring my suspension of disbelief right back to the height of the human stakes that are involved in the super hero fights. Frankly, I am rather surprised the violence in The Snap didn't get Infinity War an R rating.
I've read this take before and honestly, I find it pretty ridiculous
I mean I guess everything about verisimilitude of a film is ultimately fairly subjective but like, the thing that brings you out of the scene is the lack of a bunch of civilians getting offed? I for one don't need a full treatment of a dude like, burning to death in his car or a woman getting her guts shot out; they aren't necessary to the story and I'm sure if you're the type to care to imagine them you have the ability to do so
the end of infinity war is kinda the same thing; they don't really need to show like, planes falling out of the sky or children suddenly without parents or pedestrians getting maimed by driverless automobiles to communicate the horror of the experience.
graphic violence is important to the story of some films and that's fine, but if it's not important to the story it's just pornography
Uh, did you not stay till after the credits? Infinity War did show that. It was a helicopter, some driverless automobiles, and civilians dusting IIRC. It was pretty horrifying seeing Fury and Hill running down that street.
You're taking what I said to some extreme of gore I didn't even suggest, Avengers 1 did not convey to me the civilian deaths that General Ross later cites in Civil War and I recognized that upon first watch. There are some cut scenes from that movie involving a lady that Captain America meets that would have conveyed the danger posed by the invasion in a much more visceral way than the what I first saw, for instance.
well I dunno man, you either see people dying or you don't. I dunno how you show a bunch of civilians getting killed in a conflict without... showing them getting killed.
it's kinda implied in the whole scene where the aliens have rounded the people up in that building; obviously they intend on killing them but get stopped from doing it with this particular group. I don't really think there's a need to see another, more successful round of killings to make the point clear
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
also isn't the 70 person figure from the helicarrier conversation before the new york battle? Those are just the dudes loki killed on the way to building the portal, not the death toll from the actual attack
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
If 70, Kingpin possibly killed more people.
Frank is confirmed to have killed more people.
It’s all dead and although Punisher hasn’t been cancelled yet (it might be getting MAX’d to stay on Netflix). Until my dying day, I shall keep this going.
A sentence! A poster! A one second cameo! It would have been so cool to connect the Netflixverse to the MCU on the movies’ side. My brain would have been like “yeah!” and it would increase my enjoyment of both sides.
I'm still sad how poorly handled the TV side of MCU stuff has been so far. Like, the actual quality of the shows varies so greatly that it may be for the best; some things the shows have established I don't want to be canon tbh. But, yeah Defenders at the very least should have had a nod in Infinity War.
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
I wish they just did something in Civil War where they're flipping through available defense lawyers and a picture of Charlie Cox pops up.
Simple, nothing else needed. None of these guys are really up to Avengers level, at most if they're going to be in a film, just do a quick montage shot of them fighting in New York as a little nod and move on.
But the complete blackout from the movie side is irritating.
also isn't the 70 person figure from the helicarrier conversation before the new york battle? Those are just the dudes loki killed on the way to building the portal, not the death toll from the actual attack
I wish they just did something in Civil War where they're flipping through available defense lawyers and a picture of Charlie Cox pops up.
Simple, nothing else needed. None of these guys are really up to Avengers level, at most if they're going to be in a film, just do a quick montage shot of them fighting in New York as a little nod and move on.
But the complete blackout from the movie side is irritating.
Nah.
Because then you have random person fighting for random reason that will never be touched on again.
In some ways Marvel made a rod for their own back with talk of a shared universe that takes in both the movies and various TV continuities. Aside from the first season of Agents of SHIELD that hasn't been the case. If the shared universe aspect was important to you, then you might be feeling annoyed.
AND it's also the case that whenever this topic comes up people usually say something like hey why not a two second insert that doesn't affect the movie in any noticeable way? I'm not sure what need this would fulfil. Is it the case that without this kind of reference someone who watches the TV shows thinks that the show doesn't matter? That only by the movie recognising that the shows exist will they gain legitimacy? If the Avengers never mention Matt Murdock does he really exist? If they don't, do viewers of the Daredevil show think they've wasted their time? Does watching Daredevil by itself confer no pleasure?
There's a ton of crossover within the six Netflix shows. But apparently this isn't enough, because sempai movies haven't noticed them. I don't really get it, but I know more than a few people feel this way.
In some ways Marvel made a rod for their own back with talk of a shared universe that takes in both the movies and various TV continuities. Aside from the first season of Agents of SHIELD that hasn't been the case. If the shared universe aspect was important to you, then you might be feeling annoyed.
AND it's also the case that whenever this topic comes up people usually say something like hey why not a two second insert that doesn't affect the movie in any noticeable way? I'm not sure what need this would fulfil. Is it the case that without this kind of reference someone who watches the TV shows thinks that the show doesn't matter? That only by the movie recognising that the shows exist will they gain legitimacy? If the Avengers never mention Matt Murdock does he really exist? If they don't, do viewers of the Daredevil show think they've wasted their time? Does watching Daredevil by itself confer no pleasure?
There's a ton of crossover within the six Netflix shows. But apparently this isn't enough, because sempai movies haven't noticed them. I don't really get it, but I know more than a few people feel this way.
Yeah, I am one of those people you're mocking with the "senpai movies" nonsense.
Its fairly simple, its the concession that they exist in the same narrative setting and allows for some wonderful moments like the one I experienced at the end of Infinity War, where a bunch of viewers in the theatre were all puzzled at why it was so important for Fury to press a button and have that symbol pop up, only to have some one in the crowd be amazed and blurt out "Holy shit, that's Captain Marvel's symbol!" I had no idea who Captain Marvel was, it was just a horrifying scene for me, but for that comic book reader it was an amazing moment that they shared with the audience, I was happy for them to have that moment.
There are all kinds of characters with Marvel's universe in which the readers and watchers of Marvel would like to have such easter egg moments for and we get a kick out of sharing them with each other. Its a part of their cross overs that is enjoyable and then you act surprised that we want more of these enjoyable moments? That someone would get a bit of joy at seeing a performer/character with a role that was enjoyed be a part of the scene is enough for many of us to experience a bit of joy in the likes of Wreck It Ralph even though it doesn't have some huge impact on the overall story when we recognize Bowser for a brief second or pausing a screen to try to name all the characters in Ready Player One, it would be no less enjoyable in a Marvel film to see Jessica Jones as one of the civilians looking up into a New York skyline at Thanos Acolyte's ship despite being far from the fight.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited February 2019
As far as I've heard, it's Ike Perlmutter being his usual self that has caused the rift between the MCU films and the shows. There have been actual crossovers, but those died after The Winter Soldier.
If I was Feige, I wouldn't want to deal with his ass either.
I imagine that didn’t help, and I also guess the logistics of any meaningful crossover got pretty difficult, and the will to do meaningless nods evaporated.
It's kind of like, why bother going out of the way to acknowledge things like the Battle of NY so heavily in Daredevil and the rest of the Netflix shows.
Things like Hammer Tech showing up in Luke Cage are nifty but hardly substantial enough to please fans of the MCU movies. That's always part of the fun of the solo movies, seeing what other characters from the wider universe pop up, however briefly.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It's kind of like, why bother going out of the way to acknowledge things like the Battle of NY so heavily in Daredevil and the rest of the Netflix shows.
Cynical me thinks "coattail riding."
Technically they're all in the same universe, kinda, but it really feels like the shows are banking on the popularity of the films to boost their own stock.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
With the new batch of Marvel TV shows coming to Disney upcoming streaming service staring people from the movies, I fully expect there to be some pretty meaningful crossover events in the future.
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What's the specific wording on that stuff anyway? I wonder if it might be explained causulties/deaths being different. Or maybe the Civil War stats are just the ones that can be directly connected to the Avengers. Like, there's only six of them so if some Chitauri murdered somebody on teh other side of town, they really can't pin that one on the Avengers.
Like, the movie is fun. It's meant to be fun. It's OK for it to be fun! Thousands of dead civilians littering a ruined cityscape? Not fun!
That was enough for me.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Did any buildings actually even fall in A1? I think maybe they didn't have any NYC buildings fall for both obvious reasons and because the Avengers beat the shit out of every giant worm thing they could find before that happened.
I think the last active giant worm thing fell on top of a mid-size building when Tony blew the mothership?
It does, but other than ruining their air conditioning and facade, I don't know if it does much more than that, the building seemed to hold it up.
Nah they drop about 2.
They blow up a shit-ton of cars, too, but there doesn't seem to be anybody in them. Like, that's kinda the thing with A1, after Cap orders the NYPD around, NYC is suddenly super vacant.
I’d say at least a few hundred deaths though.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
New Yorkers have a legit claim to being able to keep their heads together and survive while horrible shit happens in their city.
As is demonstrated by many a movie, i.e. Raiders of the Lost Ark, Back to the Future,
Fun doesn't have to be toothless. You don't need to show strewn corpses among the streets to have a sense of actual stakes. But going out of your way to sanitize it makes it feel hollow.
What?
Not just that but he told them to specifically get people out by underground routes, away from the airborne attackers. Also, if you pay attention, he tells the police how far out to set their perimeter, and then sets Tony's "turn it back or turn it to ash" radius shorter to keep the police out of the fight, and the main objective was to keep the fight focused on the Avengers, be it by containment, disruption, evacuation, or just racking up body counts and being the only plausible threats in the area. The strategy was built around minimizing casualties.
I mean, yeah, if the death toll wasn't in the thousands I'd call bullshit, but "thousands of people died," is not the same thing as, "thousands of people died because of the Avengers," it's the same as, "tens of thousands didn't die because of the Avengers."
Yeah that mistake is on the Civil War script, not Avengers. I'm guessing they suppressed the other numbers because it might be weird if 3,000 people died in New York, 600 in DC, another 800 in Sokovia, and then it's the 12 people in Lagos that finally pushed the Accords to the table.
Not the original movie's fault just Marvel overreacting to Man of Steel commentary.
Uh, did you not stay till after the credits? Infinity War did show that. It was a helicopter, some driverless automobiles, and civilians dusting IIRC. It was pretty horrifying seeing Fury and Hill running down that street.
You're taking what I said to some extreme of gore I didn't even suggest, Avengers 1 did not convey to me the civilian deaths that General Ross later cites in Civil War and I recognized that upon first watch. There are some cut scenes from that movie involving a lady that Captain America meets that would have conveyed the danger posed by the invasion in a much more visceral way than the what I first saw, for instance.
You've got some nerve saying I am being ridiculous if that's the extent of your objection.
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it's kinda implied in the whole scene where the aliens have rounded the people up in that building; obviously they intend on killing them but get stopped from doing it with this particular group. I don't really think there's a need to see another, more successful round of killings to make the point clear
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Frank is confirmed to have killed more people.
It’s all dead and although Punisher hasn’t been cancelled yet (it might be getting MAX’d to stay on Netflix). Until my dying day, I shall keep this going.
A sentence! A poster! A one second cameo! It would have been so cool to connect the Netflixverse to the MCU on the movies’ side. My brain would have been like “yeah!” and it would increase my enjoyment of both sides.
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Simple, nothing else needed. None of these guys are really up to Avengers level, at most if they're going to be in a film, just do a quick montage shot of them fighting in New York as a little nod and move on.
But the complete blackout from the movie side is irritating.
Looking it up, 74 is what’s stated in Civil War.
Nothing exciting about that all for me. The music is extra generic. Jackson looks great though.
Nah.
Because then you have random person fighting for random reason that will never be touched on again.
AND it's also the case that whenever this topic comes up people usually say something like hey why not a two second insert that doesn't affect the movie in any noticeable way? I'm not sure what need this would fulfil. Is it the case that without this kind of reference someone who watches the TV shows thinks that the show doesn't matter? That only by the movie recognising that the shows exist will they gain legitimacy? If the Avengers never mention Matt Murdock does he really exist? If they don't, do viewers of the Daredevil show think they've wasted their time? Does watching Daredevil by itself confer no pleasure?
There's a ton of crossover within the six Netflix shows. But apparently this isn't enough, because sempai movies haven't noticed them. I don't really get it, but I know more than a few people feel this way.
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It's a little underwhelming.
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Yeah, I am one of those people you're mocking with the "senpai movies" nonsense.
Its fairly simple, its the concession that they exist in the same narrative setting and allows for some wonderful moments like the one I experienced at the end of Infinity War, where a bunch of viewers in the theatre were all puzzled at why it was so important for Fury to press a button and have that symbol pop up, only to have some one in the crowd be amazed and blurt out "Holy shit, that's Captain Marvel's symbol!" I had no idea who Captain Marvel was, it was just a horrifying scene for me, but for that comic book reader it was an amazing moment that they shared with the audience, I was happy for them to have that moment.
There are all kinds of characters with Marvel's universe in which the readers and watchers of Marvel would like to have such easter egg moments for and we get a kick out of sharing them with each other. Its a part of their cross overs that is enjoyable and then you act surprised that we want more of these enjoyable moments? That someone would get a bit of joy at seeing a performer/character with a role that was enjoyed be a part of the scene is enough for many of us to experience a bit of joy in the likes of Wreck It Ralph even though it doesn't have some huge impact on the overall story when we recognize Bowser for a brief second or pausing a screen to try to name all the characters in Ready Player One, it would be no less enjoyable in a Marvel film to see Jessica Jones as one of the civilians looking up into a New York skyline at Thanos Acolyte's ship despite being far from the fight.
If I was Feige, I wouldn't want to deal with his ass either.
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Things like Hammer Tech showing up in Luke Cage are nifty but hardly substantial enough to please fans of the MCU movies. That's always part of the fun of the solo movies, seeing what other characters from the wider universe pop up, however briefly.
Cynical me thinks "coattail riding."
Technically they're all in the same universe, kinda, but it really feels like the shows are banking on the popularity of the films to boost their own stock.