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Debate ad Infinitum: A [Star Wars] Thread

italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
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STAR WARS

The debate rages on! No side can convince the other as to whether THE LAST JEDI is a cinematic masterpiece or a terrible fan betrayal. As MODERATOR patience runs out, the thread must look for new content...

A new hope appears in the form of STAR WARS RESISTANCE, an animated tv show about a RESISTANCE pilot tasked to spy on the growing threat of the FIRST ORDER. Will the 3D computer animation deliver a thrilling story, or it turn fans away? But wait, there is another...

Season 7 of CLONE WARS is set to premier on a new DISNEY streaming service in late 2019. In the mean-time SOLO: A STAR WARS STORY will be digitally released on September 14th with a physical release the following week. How will the thread react to these offerings...
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Everything up to Solo: A Star Wars Story is OPEN SPOILERS in this thread. Proceed at your own risk.

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Posts

  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    edited August 28
    As per the last thread:
    Bogart wrote:
    Anyway, the last Star Wars thread was, on a regular basis, absolutely awful. I mean just downright terrible. Bad-tempered, endlessly rehashing old and tedious arguments, constantly taking what is a fun franchise about space wizards more seriously than, say, anything else. It was awful both to read and to be a part of. This thread may well go the same way, in which case it'll probably go on a break, just like Ross and Rachel, if you catch my hepcat cultural references. But I would urge you to not be a part of that decline into spittle-flecked yelling. If you catch yourself writing with a frown on your face, take a moment to ask yourself if, in fact, you wouldn't be better off not posting the long, detailed and enraged screed about why someone is wrong, and instead shrug and say oh well it doesn't really matter anyway.

    I believe we earned a reprieve by being allowed a new thread, but I will always assume that this edict is in effect. To help steer the arguments I'd like to link a few videos that were by and large well received by the thread:

    Movies With Mickey: How we view Star Wars:


    Just Write's Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi & Character Arcs


    Lessons From The Screenplay:

    Wisecrack's What Went Wrong, and other videos critical of the movie:


    The Mr. Plinkett review dropped today, should it go on this list?

    Sick of talking about The Last Jedi? Who isn't! Post about something else and hopefully the thread will follow! For example there's that new STAR WARS RESISTANCE trailer:


    I'm sure we'll all start talking about how great Solo: A Star Wars story is once people have actually seen it...

    italianranma on
    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • LegacyLegacy SCP Of The Digital Frontier The Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Star Wars is pretty okay.

    Can we get the chemicals in. 'Cause anything's better than this.
    FencingsaxitalianranmaAistan
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    They seriously dropped solo at the worst time

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  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited August 28
    My love of Star Wars comes from the video games, not the movies.
    Too bad they haven't made a good Star Wars video game in a while.

    RT800 on
    italianranmaMatev
  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    Any movie after the Last Jedi was gonna take a hit, but making it fight for air with a bunch of other blockbusters was a less than ideal strat. Should’ve stuck to the December release schedule.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
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  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    I mean the movies are alright. I was born too late for the OT to wow me on any sort of technical level, but it's a neat story.
    The prequels had their problems, but at least I remember them.
    These last few movies have just been... really kinda forgettable for me.
    I go see them and I walk out of the theater just kinda... "meh" and have no desire to rewatch them ever.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 14
    However you feel about The Last Jedi, I think we can all agree that it's the best star wars movie.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I think I bought all of the Star Wars games on a Steam Sale some years back, and in regular Steam backlog fashion haven't played any of them yet. I did however play the Super Star Wars games during the SNES era:

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    I generally really like RLM, but with both this and their Half in the Bag review of TLJ, I almost feel like I saw a different movie than they did. It's the first Plinkett review I didn't finish watching. In the end, a lot of it is subjective, and they clearly have a different opinion on the film than I do, and that's okay.
    I still find it weird just how much they disliked the movie though.
    That's sort of the TLJ experience in a nutshell, isn't it?

    Harry DresdenMatevkimeRhan9
  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    One thing that the whole TLJ discussion clarified for me, was something that perhaps should have been immediately obvious but was not obvious until much later.

    It’s that I simply have a fundamental disagreement with a lot of people on the matter of What Star Wars is ultimately about. And I have no idea how to reach people like that.

    Fuck Firearm Fetishism
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Matev wrote: »
    Any movie after the Last Jedi was gonna take a hit, but making it fight for air with a bunch of other blockbusters was a less than ideal strat. Should’ve stuck to the December release schedule.

    Why?

    Anyway, the problem with Solo is probably more that it's both not a very exciting or compelling premise and not a very good movie and so isn't gonna change anyone's mind on the first point.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    And now for something completely different - Star Wars: The Musical!

    Elvenshae
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I’m still waiting on KOTOR2 to come out on mobile. It’s been years since KOTOR1 was released on mobile, what gives?

    I need me some snarky Kreia!

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    Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Sorry about the double post, but I'm watching Dark City, a movie that I haven't watched in over 15 years and it got me thinking: This would be a ballin Star Wars story!

    Like, imagine if it was the origin of human Force users? The movie starts near the end of the Rakata Empire and they are struggling to stave off the end of their civilization. Their research into humans leads to the main character of Dark City accidentally accessing the Force, but inadvertently leads to not only the creation of Jedi, but the final end to the Rakata as the dominant species of the galaxy.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Even for a property such as Star Wars, which notoriously over-explains everything that shows up on-screen... I feel like that's going way too far.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Even for a property such as Star Wars, which notoriously over-explains everything that shows up on-screen... I feel like that's going way too far.

    Yeah, but Dark City is a great movie. Imagine! Star Wars future noir!

    /swoons

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Even for a property such as Star Wars, which notoriously over-explains everything that shows up on-screen... I feel like that's going way too far.

    Yeah, but Dark City is a great movie. Imagine! Star Wars future noir!

    /swoons

    Dark noir yes! Explaining origins of the galaxy no!

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Even for a property such as Star Wars, which notoriously over-explains everything that shows up on-screen... I feel like that's going way too far.

    Yeah, but Dark City is a great movie. Imagine! Star Wars future noir!

    /swoons

    Dark noir yes! Explaining origins of the galaxy no!

    Even though it's non-canon now, they already did in KOTOR and TOR and it was fine. At least, in broad strokes.

    I don't want an explanation, so much as a story set there. Watch Dark City and imagine if John is the first Jedi, it just works.

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  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    Matt Smith will be in the next Star Wars. Hopefully, as a scene stealer.

    Sleepkime
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    However you feel about The Last Jedi, I think we can all agree that it's a star wars movie that is the second part of a new trilogy of films and stars several people.

    No, its the eighth part of an existing ennealogy

    :razz:

    ElvenshaeSynthesisFencingsaxDongs GaloreMatevShadowenJoolander
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    I was reading the Jabberjaw/Aquaman comic earlier, and it made me wish we could get crossover comics of Star Wars/Looney Tunes

    Imagine Yoda and Bugs Bunny just trolling the hell out of Vader and Elmer.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited August 29
    Nvm

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    I feel there is too much trauma in the past of Anakin Skywalker for him to share a screen with the lighthearted and relatively carefree denizens of the 'Looney Tunes' universe, he might be mugging with Daffy Duck now but before he was rolling around in the dirt all bugeyed with his arms and legs chopped off and on fire, that kind of thing just doesn't occupy space in your mind when you watch Elmer Fudd try and fuck Bugs Bunny

    Matev
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Krathoon wrote: »
    Matt Smith will be in the next Star Wars. Hopefully, as a scene stealer.
    As Skynet. Star Wars was a Terminator sequel all along!

    MrVyngaardDoodmannKneel
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    One of my favorite Youtube channels, Pop Culture Detective, has weighed in on The Last Jedi:

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    edited September 3
    I would like to take everything in that video and agree with it so hard.

    Edit: all of the things it identifies are things that I liked about the movie. I enjoyed the way it methodically pulled the rug out from under me again and again. Each time I thought I knew how things were going to turn out due to being genre savvy and the movie's deliberate reflections of the original scenes ended up being turned on their head. That very novelty I greatly enjoyed. And it was a bit like Sucker Punch in that segments of the movie are deliberately designed to turn a mirror on the viewer--especially those scenes where Poe is repeatedly rebuked for his actions that we-as-the-viewer expect to be the right thing.

    Orca on
    evilthecat wrote: »
    "Bioware I want to suck on your teets of gamingness".

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Ehhh. It's another piece that boils down to "boys are mad because girls do stuff in this one," and I find it super gross that criticisms of TLJ frequently get reduced to that.

    (A pet peeve of mine: Luke doesn't go out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order himself. He projects an illusion. I know a lot of people see that as the same thing, or even more super inspiring; I'm not among those people.)

    One thing that stands out to me at the end of the video is when the author states that the "male heroes are not being diminished or erased in this movie - in fact, a lot of time and effort is devoted to giving men transformative arcs." I think that statement conflicts with its initial thesis of where it puts Luke - so consumed with guilt, he's cut himself off from the Force and retired as a hermit. That's necessarily diminished from where we last see him at the end of Return of the Jedi.

    But I'm more of a fan of Just Write's Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi, Wisecrack's What Went Wrong, and Red Letter Media's Plinkett Review.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I find that a lot of the reviews of TLJ focus on the themes rather than the actual movie you're seeing on the screen, the dialogue, pacing etc.

    I like a lot of the themes, but the actual movie is poor IMO, that's the issue. I'd be more interested in these interwoven arcs if they were interwoven better

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Ehhh. It's another piece that boils down to "boys are mad because girls do stuff in this one," and I find it super gross that criticisms of TLJ frequently get reduced to that.

    To be fair, he explicitly refers to the people who aren't just critics of the film, but who feel personally enraged and affronted at the film, in a way that causes lashing out (helpfully using Kylo Ren's violent lash out scene to underscore who he's talking about)

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  • CoinageCoinage dance all crazy, whip my hair around all crazy Registered User regular
    I don't want to kick off another multi-page argument, but watching TLJ videos crystallized what I think is the reason everyone can't stop arguing about Admiral Holdo: the movie wants to have it both ways. It wants to show the problem with going off half-cocked and subvert the evil admiral trope, but Poe is on the dang poster.

    If Holdo had said "that's on a need to know basis", then Poe flying off the handle makes him just a huge asshole, not a flawed hero. It's even worse if she tells him the plan, and then he goes behind her back because he thinks it's a bad idea for [insert 2 hour nitpicking Youtube video]. So we get the good admiral rallying the troops by giving an inspiring speech about having no plan but hoping for the best, just so Poe doesn't look like a total dipshit. Some people can overlook the questionable logic (and I'm not saying you're wrong if you can), and others can't.

    I don't even know how you could tweak it while maintaining the logic, other than just cutting the entire Rose and Finn adventure. And maybe they should have, but I'm not here to tell people 30 minutes of their movie should have been edited out.

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    A lot of the Holdo arguments also hinge on technicalities about rank and chain of command. We do not know exactly what the Resistance's rank structure actually is, so I will try to use the film and sometimes the wiki to work through my reasoning on why the chain of command does not adequately explain Holdo's conduct towards Poe:

    Poe Dameron is a Commander in the Starfighter Corps. We don't know how far that is below Vice Admiral, or even if the Starfighter Corps is part of the Fleet. We see on-screen that Commander Dameron has operational control of three squadrons (Red, Blue, Cobalt). Blue and Cobalt are the Raddus' fighter and strike wing, Red is the ground-based X-Wing squadron. Are the cruiser's wings part of the Starfighter Corps, or is Poe just assuming control ad hoc? Regardless, he is the most senior starfighter officer we're shown.

    According to secondary sources, Poe is actually the most senior officer in the entire Corps, which consists of just the two Red and Blue Squadrons shown on screen. That would imply that the commanders of Red and Blue squadrons are immediately below him in the chain of command - except the wiki says Poe was also Red Squadron commander? So Blue Squadron commander - Tallisan Lintra, the A-Wing pilot - is the next most junior officer to Dameron.

    Then General Organa (where is she relative to an Admiral? who knows) demotes him to Captain Dameron. How many grades is that? Lintra is apparently a Lieutenant so Captain Dameron still outranks her. We may be able to assume based on this demotion that the Starfighter Corps doesn't use the Fleet's rank structure, because otherwise Captain Dameron would be equivalent rank to the late Captain Gawat, the officer in command of the Raddus. At any rate, when they jump into hyperspace, Captain Dameron is apparently still the highest-ranking fighter pilot and probably still has command of the wing by default.

    Then Kylo Ren shows up. Admiral Ackbar, Captain Gawat and everyone else on the bridge die. Lieutenant Lintra dies. General Organa is incapacitated. The only surviving bridge officer on the Raddus is Commander D'Acy, who is in command of the ground forces. (I had to look this up) How does an Army Commander compare to a Starfighter Corps Commander? She evidently outranks Captain Dameron, but maybe not Commander Dameron.

    So, what we have left is the highest-ranking Army officer and the highest-ranking Starfighter Corps officer both on the same ship with no Fleet officers left above them. Commander D'Acy outranks Captain Dameron, but she is a soldier. Poe is the most senior officer we know of with space combat expertise. He is absolutely entitled to discuss strategy with the incoming Admiral. At the very least he would be present at the new commander's briefing.

    Holdo has just replaced the former Admiral of the Fleet in extremis. Her new command is a freshly-decapitated cruiser, with no high-ranking Fleet personnel left. The Army commander is deferential to her, but the Starfighter Corps commander urgently wants to discuss strategy - so she mocks him for being demoted (despite still being the most senior officer in his branch) and tells him to get off her bridge. This is a serious breakdown of command. It's like Admiral Nimitz refusing to brief the commander of the Enterprise air wing on his operational plan before Midway. What did she think would happen? Did she not realize her new command was on the verge of moral collapse? Does she make a habit of treating her staff officers like shit?

    Now, to be fair, probably there are other junior Raddus officers alive. Maybe Holdo had a nice, professional briefing with them offscreen, and just specifically excluded Poe. It's possible that Poe was throwing a huge tantrum and never privately asked Commander D'acy or any of his fellow officers what Holdo had told them. In this case, it would genuinely be all Poe's fault. But the information we have doesn't suggest that she did, or that there's anyone else besides D'acy left above or equal to Poe's rank.

    That said, I rewatched TLJ the other day, and y'know what? I actually changed my opinion. I like it significantly more than Force Awakens. Now, I didn't really like TFA that much, so this is kind of faint praise, but here are some parts which on reflection I liked quite a lot:
    -Luke is a cranky hermit
    -Luke being back on the Falcon
    -Luke fishing and milking sea cows like a cranky ascetic
    -Rey's parents are nobody important (her being a Skywalker would have been fucking terrible)
    -Rey and Kylo's force conversations (I liked how these were shot)
    -Snoke fucking around with Rey
    -actually I kind of enjoyed Snoke in general this time, which surprised me
    -the cinematography in the throne room
    -Captain Phasma actually doing something kind of badass instead of jobbing laughably

    Dongs Galore on
    LanlaornCaedwyr
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 4
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    Cambiata on
    OrcaElvenshaeN1tSt4lker
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Ehhh. It's another piece that boils down to "boys are mad because girls do stuff in this one," and I find it super gross that criticisms of TLJ frequently get reduced to that.

    Not all criticisms of TLJ fit that description, but a sizeable portion of critics arguing in bad faith do.

    ElvenshaeitalianranmaAistanN1tSt4lkerMatevShadowen
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    Coinage wrote: »
    I don't even know how you could tweak it while maintaining the logic, other than just cutting the entire Rose and Finn adventure. And maybe they should have, but I'm not here to tell people 30 minutes of their movie should have been edited out.
    I think Holdo's entire role in the story could have been done by Leia. She already has basically the same conflict with Poe (doesn't like his command style, just demoted him). She's left in command when Ackbar dies and the crew, even though they respect her leadership, are worried that she has never really commanded a warship. Poe gets increasingly upset that she won't tell him her plan and does his dumb thing. Leia's a long-established character, so people wouldn't be turned off by this random new person, and also she isn't a career admiral, so her falling out with Poe would be more of a personal drama than a weird crisis of command.
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    Don't remember that episode, but the synopsis sounds pretty good. I'll give it a watch.

    Dongs Galore on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    kimeElvenshaeitalianranmaAistanN1tSt4lkerAbsoluteZeroShadowen
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    shryke on
    OrcaCouscousElvenshaekimeN1tSt4lkeritalianranmaDarkPrimus
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 4
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    Well, again: It worked for Jellico. Jellico is explicitly sworn in as Captain, with Picard saying "I stand relieved", and he still very easily comes across as an outsider and rubs against the grain of everyone on board. There's enough inherent in the baseline character to get across that she's the outsider. To borrow from another trope, she can still be the by-the-book sergeant if we establish her first as the sergeant before she demands your badge and gun. And the overturning of the expectation still exists, because it turns out she was right to take your badge and gun all along.

    Cambiata on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    Well, again: It worked for Jellico. Jellico is explicitly sworn in as Captain, with Picard saying "I stand relieved", and he still very easily comes across as an outsider and rubs against the grain of everyone on board. There's enough inherent in the baseline character to get across that she's the outsider. To borrow from another trope, she can still be the by-the-book sergeant if we establish her first as the sergeant before she demands your badge and gun. And the overturning of the expectation still exists, because it turns out she was right to take your badge and gun all along.

    I'm not sure what the difference is between what we got and what you are imagining then that isn't some way to normalize the character which is explicitly the opposite of what they want to do with her.

  • AistanAistan Registered User regular
    I haven't seen that episode but did the crew of the Enterprise try to lead a mutiny against him? That's an important part of how far Poe goes, and we're supposed to be on his side right up to the point where Leia walks in the door and knocks him out. If we know Holdo has Leia's active support beforehand that kind of goes out the window because we'll be thinking that Poe is going too far.

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