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Debate ad Infinitum: A [Star Wars] Thread

2456733

Posts

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 4
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    Well, again: It worked for Jellico. Jellico is explicitly sworn in as Captain, with Picard saying "I stand relieved", and he still very easily comes across as an outsider and rubs against the grain of everyone on board. There's enough inherent in the baseline character to get across that she's the outsider. To borrow from another trope, she can still be the by-the-book sergeant if we establish her first as the sergeant before she demands your badge and gun. And the overturning of the expectation still exists, because it turns out she was right to take your badge and gun all along.

    I'm not sure what the difference is between what we got and what you are imagining then that isn't some way to normalize the character which is explicitly the opposite of what they want to do with her.

    It's just a question of establishing the character, it's something movies do all the time. It's the difference between someone saying, "we're inside a space station now!" vs having an outside establishing shot of space and a planet you're orbiting, then just showing people in a futuristic room and everyone in the audience says to themselves "this is the inside of a space station." It's odd for her to have never existed inside the world before that moment, that's all. I think it would have felt better if she had existed, yet not been important before that moment. It's a very movie thing I'm asking for, I guess. But establishing things tends to work in the movie's favor, unless you overdo it in a way that feels patronizing.
    Aistan wrote: »
    I haven't seen that episode but did the crew of the Enterprise try to lead a mutiny against him? That's an important part of how far Poe goes, and we're supposed to be on his side right up to the point where Leia walks in the door and knocks him out. If we know Holdo has Leia's active support beforehand that kind of goes out the window because we'll be thinking that Poe is going too far.

    The Enterprise crew does not mutiny, no, but in TNG the sense is of everyone here is a professional adult and are trying to deal with change in as emotionally mature a manner as possible. There were not any hotshot know-it-alls on the TNG crew. It is, however, very clear to the audience that Jellico is not the guy we're rooting for, that the situation is uncomfortable, and if there were the type of person on the crew to punch-first-ask-questions-later then Jellico would have been punched.

    Cambiata on
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    Well, again: It worked for Jellico. Jellico is explicitly sworn in as Captain, with Picard saying "I stand relieved", and he still very easily comes across as an outsider and rubs against the grain of everyone on board. There's enough inherent in the baseline character to get across that she's the outsider. To borrow from another trope, she can still be the by-the-book sergeant if we establish her first as the sergeant before she demands your badge and gun. And the overturning of the expectation still exists, because it turns out she was right to take your badge and gun all along.

    This kind of made me realize that J.J. Abrams turned Star Trek into Star Wars and Rian Johnson turned Star Wars into Star Trek. Star Trek absolutely wants to have subtle and controversial arguments about realistic scenarios of high concept conflict, and Star Wars wants to be a whirlwind of pure dramatic emotion.

    Captain Jellico works because the purpose of Star Trek is to challenge our way of thinking and give us complex moral and philosophical problems to solve. It often doesn't cut clean and makes loads of exceptions because that's how things are in reality. Star Wars is a science and philosophical fantasy as it tries to give the purest and most unambiguous representation of an idea or a way of thinking and actually rejects the complexity of moral dilemmas - Luke's reductivist take on the Jedi is seen as superior to Obi-Wan's more nuanced view because it is purer and lends itself to higher emotional stakes.

    I could absolutely see the Poe-Holdo story as being a particularly good epsiode of Star Trek, albeit too similar to Chain of Command Part I. On the other hand, Spock having a fight with Kirk on the bridge and jettisoning him into a nearby ice planet would have made a horrible episode of Voyager.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
    italianranmaObiFettMatev
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    Well, again: It worked for Jellico. Jellico is explicitly sworn in as Captain, with Picard saying "I stand relieved", and he still very easily comes across as an outsider and rubs against the grain of everyone on board. There's enough inherent in the baseline character to get across that she's the outsider. To borrow from another trope, she can still be the by-the-book sergeant if we establish her first as the sergeant before she demands your badge and gun. And the overturning of the expectation still exists, because it turns out she was right to take your badge and gun all along.

    I'm not sure what the difference is between what we got and what you are imagining then that isn't some way to normalize the character which is explicitly the opposite of what they want to do with her.

    It's just a question of establishing the character, it's something movies do all the time. It's the difference between someone saying, "we're inside a space station now!" vs having an outside establishing shot of space and a planet you're orbiting, then just showing people in a futuristic room and everyone in the audience says to themselves "this is the inside of a space station." It's odd for her to have never existed inside the world before that moment, that's all. I think it would have felt better if she had existed, yet not been important before that moment. It's a very movie thing I'm asking for, I guess. But establishing things tends to work in the movie's favor, unless you overdo it in a way that feels patronizing.

    But the point is to not establish her before hand. That our conception of her comes entirely from Poe's POV because we meet her at the same time and in the same context as him and have similar reactions.

    She never existed outside that moment in the same sense that every character doesn't exist until the first time the movie mentions and/or shows them on screen.

    Elvenshaeitalianranma
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    Well, again: It worked for Jellico. Jellico is explicitly sworn in as Captain, with Picard saying "I stand relieved", and he still very easily comes across as an outsider and rubs against the grain of everyone on board. There's enough inherent in the baseline character to get across that she's the outsider. To borrow from another trope, she can still be the by-the-book sergeant if we establish her first as the sergeant before she demands your badge and gun. And the overturning of the expectation still exists, because it turns out she was right to take your badge and gun all along.

    I'm not sure what the difference is between what we got and what you are imagining then that isn't some way to normalize the character which is explicitly the opposite of what they want to do with her.

    It's just a question of establishing the character, it's something movies do all the time. It's the difference between someone saying, "we're inside a space station now!" vs having an outside establishing shot of space and a planet you're orbiting, then just showing people in a futuristic room and everyone in the audience says to themselves "this is the inside of a space station." It's odd for her to have never existed inside the world before that moment, that's all. I think it would have felt better if she had existed, yet not been important before that moment. It's a very movie thing I'm asking for, I guess. But establishing things tends to work in the movie's favor, unless you overdo it in a way that feels patronizing.

    But the point is to not establish her before hand. That our conception of her comes entirely from Poe's POV because we meet her at the same time and in the same context as him and have similar reactions.

    She never existed outside that moment in the same sense that every character doesn't exist until the first time the movie mentions and/or shows them on screen.

    I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Simply establishing her in the universe is not going to ruin the lesson in my view. Clearly it would in yours. There doesn't seem to be anything more to say about that.

    shryke
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.

    Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.

    It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).

    However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.

    I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.

    Mild Confusion on
    steam_sig.png

    Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
    italianranmaMatevCaedwyrTheColoneltbloxham
  • KetarKetar My autocomplete is a tad agressive today.Registered User regular
    A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.

    Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.

    It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).

    However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.

    I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.

    The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.

    CambiataElvenshaekimeDoodmannpablo_priceFoolOnTheHillN1tSt4lkerDarkPrimusAistanbrynhrtmnLeeks
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    cckerberosLanlaorn
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.

    Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.

    It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).

    However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.

    I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.

    The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.

    I dunno, if there's one thing that Star Wars has taught us, it's that counterintelligence is crap and will always fail

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
    Dongs Galore
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.

    Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.

    It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).

    However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.

    I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.

    It's the exact opposite. The entire plot makes as much sense as plots from a dozen and more other movies that are also commercially and culturally successful. Which leads to the question of why it matters so damn much to some people here, with this movie, and no with any other movie. There's more then enough reasons for Holdo not to tell Poe everything and people have gone over them endlessly in these threads but none of them matter because they don't actually address whatever the real issue people have is.


    Also Holdo likes Poe because, like Leai, she clearly sees him as a young hot head but one with potential. And both their reactions to his mutiny are the same. He's doing something stupid and needs to learn to be better but that doesn't mean they don't like him or think he's got a bright future. They are grooming him for command. This is a very classic character arc.

    OrcaElvenshaeAistanKristmas KthulhuCobell
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.

    Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.

    It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).

    However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.

    I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.

    The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.

    And also more than enough to justify Poe not trusting the new commander who was so conveniently positioned to assume command after the murder of Admiral Ackbar. Why did the Ninka's point defenses mysteriously fail to stop Kylo Ren as he flew away...?

    Seriously, if the breakdown of discipline were due to legitimate paranoia in a locked-room style situation the plot might have been good. But even then, refusing to trust the guy in charge of an entire branch of the resistance is stupid.

    And like, if it's a traitor with a tracking beacon, how the hell would her plan have worked at all? They couldn't hide on the planet if some asshole is gonna sneak into the comms array and broadcast their location or something.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    CambiataKetarElvenshaeDarkPrimusKristmas KthulhuAbsoluteZeroShadowen
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    From the spoiler
    one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo

    wbBv3fj.png
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Dongs Galore on
    italianranmaLanlaorn
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    From the spoiler
    one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo

    My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.

    Lanlaorn
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    From the spoiler
    one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo

    My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.

    If Poe had been anywhere close to command he would have been on the other side of the room. Not in the audience.

    wbBv3fj.png
    KetarshrykeHarry DresdenCambiataElvenshae
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    CambiataElvenshaeKristmas KthulhuShadowen
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    A little mutiny of the entire senior staff is actually a big mutiny when successful

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
    italianranma
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    They should feed Poe to one of them giant asteroid worms and make everybody watch

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    From the spoiler
    one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo

    My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.

    If Poe had been anywhere close to command he would have been on the other side of the room. Not in the audience.

    You mean the people behind her here?
    1*fmaE5juMvx9bTmoPWcyG6w.png
    I dunno man, who the hell even are those guys? I thought they were also just the audience and D'Acy

    Lanlaorn
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Man that guy on the left should be the one in a gown, they look severely fucking uncomfortable crammed into those garments

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    A little mutiny of the entire senior staff is actually a big mutiny when successful

    The senior staff are the ones being held at gun point. The mutiny is composed of what seems like the 4 other pilots he didn't get killed at the start of the film.

    kimeKristmas KthulhuShadowen
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Poe's mutiny is at least one bridge officer and the fighter pilots, which are basically an entire branch of the depleted Resistance military, and arguably its most combat effective branch by a hige margin. It's D'Acy's troops who side with Holdo, we don't see anyone else interfere in the hangar. When the mutiny is being led by the guy who leads one of your three military services, you probably fucked up somewhere.

    Lanlaorn
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Poe's mutiny is at least one bridge officer and the fighter pilots, which are basically an entire branch of the depleted Resistance military, and arguably its most combat effective branch by a hige margin. It's D'Acy's troops who side with Holdo, we don't see anyone else interfere in the hangar. When the mutiny is being led by the guy who leads one of your three military services, you probably fucked up somewhere.

    Yeah, you screwed up letting Poe lead so that one branch of your military was so destroyed that it was made up of five people :P

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    ElvenshaeKristmas Kthulhu
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    A little mutiny of the entire senior staff is actually a big mutiny when successful

    The senior staff are the ones being held at gun point. The mutiny is composed of what seems like the 4 other pilots he didn't get killed at the start of the film.

    If 5 guys can successfully hijack the entire alliance then you need to inspire confidence in at least one of those guys for there not to be a big mutiny

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
    Dongs Galore
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    kime wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Poe's mutiny is at least one bridge officer and the fighter pilots, which are basically an entire branch of the depleted Resistance military, and arguably its most combat effective branch by a hige margin. It's D'Acy's troops who side with Holdo, we don't see anyone else interfere in the hangar. When the mutiny is being led by the guy who leads one of your three military services, you probably fucked up somewhere.

    Yeah, you screwed up letting Poe lead so that one branch of your military was so destroyed that it was made up of five people :P

    Ackbar's K:D in TLJ is worse

    Dongs Galore on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Again, Mon Mothma is clearly running the fucking show in ROTJ. And, if I remember correctly, Rogue One. In a dress. Wasn't a problem.

    The point being that these things are referencing already existing ideas within the Star Wars films. Nothing here is unusual or out of place.

    shryke on
    Harry DresdenElvenshaeKristmas KthulhuShadowen
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Again, Mon Mothma is clearly running the fucking show in ROTJ. And, if I remember correctly, Rogue One. In a dress. Wasn't a problem.

    She was not an admiral. Did you see her on the bridge of Home One during the Battle of Endor? She's in the room for the same reason Obama was in the situation room for the Bin Laden Raid. If Mon Mothma had been the one ordering green group to stick close to holding sector MG-7, yes, it would have been stupid for her to be dressed in civilian formal wear.

    italianranmaLanlaornAssuran
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    A little mutiny of the entire senior staff is actually a big mutiny when successful

    Poe was the closest thing in his tiny group to a leader, the rest sided with Holdo - including the senior staff. His second was implied to be a communications officer, played by Carrie Fisher’s daughter. Nor was his mutiny successful.

    Edit: They all got taken out by a single woman with a blaster! She didn’t even bother using her powers aside from Making a her cool entrance, that’s how small they were on a tiny ship which had the last of the Resistance on it.

    Harry Dresden on
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    A little mutiny of the entire senior staff is actually a big mutiny when successful

    Poe was the closest thing in his tiny group to a leader, the rest sided with Holdo - including the senior staff. His second was implied to be a communications officer, played by Carrie’s daughter. Nor was his mutiny successful.

    Who on the senior staff was original Raddus crew? My impression was besides D'Acy they were Holdo's crew from the Ninka. I don't remember seeing pretty boy on the bridge before she showed up anyway.

    e: my basis for this is Dacy says the entire bridge crew were killed. Also that it would make sense for Holdo to use her familiar staff if they were brought aboard with her.

    Dongs Galore on
    Harry DresdenElvenshaeLanlaorn
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4

    Edit: They all got taken out by a single woman with a blaster! She didn’t even bother using her powers aside from Making a her cool entrance, that’s how small they were on a tiny ship which had the last of the Resistance on it.

    There is no basis to suppose they were all taken out by Holdo, she's just the first to draw a gun before it cuts to black. Everyone else had a sidearm (of which for some reason nobody disarmed them), and, again, D'Acy is the one who has the jackboots under her command. (there really should have been a scene where Poe tries to convince D'Acy, although this would have forced them to explain why nobody told HER the plan, or why she won't give Poe some reassurance)

    edit: sorry for replying to the same post twice. Thought the edit was a new post.

    Dongs Galore on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Again, Mon Mothma is clearly running the fucking show in ROTJ. And, if I remember correctly, Rogue One. In a dress. Wasn't a problem.

    The point being that these things are referencing already existing ideas within the Star Wars films. Nothing here is unusual or out of place.

    She was not an admiral. Did you see her on the bridge of Home One during the Battle of Endor? She's in the room for the same reason Obama was in the situation room for the Bin Laden Raid. If Mon Mothma had been the one ordering green group to stick close to holding sector MG-7, yes, it would have been stupid for her to be dressed in civilian formal wear.

    We don't know what the fuck she is in that movie (it's never explained), nor does it matter. She's a lady, in a dress and she's in charge.

    Again, this is all just circling around the actual point, which is that a women in a position of authority in a dress is not some weird new thing for the movies. It's a Star Wars thing and the movie is imo fairly clearly using it as a reference for the character in question. It's taking a thing from previous movies and then changing our viewpoint on the situation (to Poe's specifically) in order to get the viewer to make certain assumptions. Bad ones but ones that make a sort of sense in the context of Poe's POV and our assumptions about the narrative form at work. Even though the film has already made it real clear at the start in his scenes with Leia, we still think of Poe as the hero and not the student here.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    re: Holdo (spoilered for people tired of arguing about Holdo)
    A lot of the argument around Holdo on both sides seems to center on her sex, so let's pretend for a second that this was a male role, named Vice Admiral Garylus Broldo. Try to imagine how Admiral Broldo's establishing character scenes with Poe would have come off. The impression that keeps coming into my mind is either Lieutenant Gorman from Aliens or Captain Stobel from Band of Brothers: kind of an asshole, possibly an incompetent asshole, who the hero is totally right to second guess. Garylus would probably have been punched in the face by the end of that first scene on the bridge. Poe is also acting like an asshole fighter jock in that scene, of course. But I don't think his attitude would have been any more deferential towards Admiral Broldo, and I'm not convinced it really should have been (especially if Admiral Broldo is also, for some reason, not wearing a uniform).

    Also spoilered for people tired o' this
    This made me think back to a male character that takes command and none of the cast regulars know who he is and don't like him much: Captain Jellico from ST:TNG. For those that don't recognize the name (I had to look him up, I only remembered his face and what he did in the episode!) here's a pic:

    QUoicm3.jpg

    I feel like Jellico fulfilled a very similar role to Holdo, in that he was in command in a place where no one really wanted him to be, the cast regulars were pretty uncomfortable with it, he insisted on things the regular crew thought were wrong, and withheld information from his crew. The funny thing is, I loved Jellico. I was extremely satisfied with him shutting people down who were clearly not used to being shut down. Obviously, I love Picard and wouldn't have wanted him permanently replaced, but I liked seeing the crew uncomfortable and being made to go against what they think their gut is telling them.

    Holdo is not quite as good as Jellico... but I think they could have fixed any problem I had with her just by having a scene with her and Leia before she takes over.

    Having the tough guy hotshot punch his annoying superior is a lesson a lot of movies reinforce, but I'd argue it's not a good lesson.

    They don't want to have a scene like that with Holdo because the entire point is to play into your assumptions and preconceptions. Poe is your POV character here and the film wants to bring you along with his journey.

    While it's definitely possible to over play that so that Holdo becomes trusted to the audience, I think there's a happy medium between "don't show her at all" and "show her as besties with Leia." A single scene between them of strictly military procedure would have been enough.

    I think that still undermines the whole idea here because it shows her as some sort of non-outsider. And the movie wants you to make that assumption about her. That she is an outsider. The movie is telling you flat out who she is via dialogue and the people around her but is using point of view and culturally-based assumptions (biggest one being she's a woman) to make you not believe what it's saying. And part of that is having her just kinda walk on stage at the appropriate point as a complete stranger to us.

    I'm convinced the main thing that makes people reject her isn't that she's a woman, but that she isn't wearing a uniform. This is still partly a gender bias thing - a man wearing a classy tux might get more respect than a woman wearing a formal gown. But if Admiral Gary Broldo waltzed onstage wearing a tweed suit with elbow pads like some liberal arts professor, the audience would still be confused and irritated by his unmilitary bearing just like many are by Holdo. We would be much more inclined to accept Holdo pulling rank on Poe if she would just wear her fucking rank tabs.

    I'm sure the costuming choice was deliberate, but I don't think this was a valid way to fakeout the audience, because her mode of dress is something she as a character is supposed to have chosen, and is an insight into who she is: she's the kind of admiral who wears a cocktail dress in battle. The rest of the bridge crew are wearing uniforms, but she decided regulations don't apply to her. The ornate hairpiece is even worse. This doesn't make her look unprofessional, it outright makes her unprofessional. Her failure to inspire confidence in her new command proceeds directly from her bizarre refusal to act her rank.
    I'm almost positive Poe is wearing his orange flight uniform when he talks to her the first time, but I admit I could be applying a double standard here if he wasn't. On the other hand, he had also just been blown up.

    Mon Momtha is wandering around in a similar outfit. So is Leai, and both at key briefing scenes in the OT. Shit, even Leai ain't in a real uniform for TLJ. Holdo's outfit is almost certainly a deliberate choice to mirror them as well. Right down, I would suspect, to the grey pallet instead of the white.

    She seems to inspire confidence in most of the crew just fine as well.

    Mon Mothma was a senator, not a military officer. Nobody ever refers to her by rank in the Endor briefing, and in the EU iirc she was always described as the political leadership of the Alliance. Leia wears a rank insignia in that same Endor briefing scene (her clothes also seem to be a female cut of the blue-and-tan uniform other officers are wearing). Leia also wears rank tabs on her white jumpsuit in ESB, only losing them when she changes into eveningwear on Bespin.

    Holdo didn't seem to inspire confidence in any crewmen with names besides D'Acy, and really D'Acy just seemed kind of tired and unhappy most of the time.

    Mon Mothma was some leader of the rebellion in the movies and that's it. She's clearly in charge. And she wears a dress. Leia is also wearing a dress in ANH during the briefing. Holdo does not seem out of place in the slightest and this is almost certainly, again, deliberate. Her wardrobe is designed to echo previous instances.

    And you'll note that Poe's little mutiny is just that: little. A handful of people. Technically, I think there's like 5 of them shown. He's definitely holding what seems to be the entire senior staff at gunpoint.

    Leia is a princess/senator in ANH also. Whoever decided to have her wardrobe echo non military characters was an idiot.

    Again, Mon Mothma is clearly running the fucking show in ROTJ. And, if I remember correctly, Rogue One. In a dress. Wasn't a problem.

    The point being that these things are referencing already existing ideas within the Star Wars films. Nothing here is unusual or out of place.

    She was not an admiral. Did you see her on the bridge of Home One during the Battle of Endor? She's in the room for the same reason Obama was in the situation room for the Bin Laden Raid. If Mon Mothma had been the one ordering green group to stick close to holding sector MG-7, yes, it would have been stupid for her to be dressed in civilian formal wear.

    We don't know what the fuck she is in that movie (it's never explained), nor does it matter. She's a lady, in a dress and she's in charge.

    Again, this is all just circling around the actual point, which is that a women in a position of authority in a dress is not some weird new thing for the movies. It's a Star Wars thing and the movie is imo fairly clearly using it as a reference for the character in question. It's taking a thing from previous movies and then changing our viewpoint on the situation (to Poe's specifically) in order to get the viewer to make certain assumptions. Bad ones but ones that make a sort of sense in the context of Poe's POV and our assumptions about the narrative form at work. Even though the film has already made it real clear at the start in his scenes with Leia, we still think of Poe as the hero and not the student here.

    An admiral in an evening dress absolutely is a weird new thing in this series. It was a slipshod and thoughtless attempt to call back to another "woman in authority" character rather than actually make her look like a damn Vice Admiral. It was not a smart way to play on our assumptions when we already know that female officers wear rank insignia.

    e: yes yes Leia isnt wearing a uniform in TLJ either, but she has an exceptional position as founder of the Resistance. I actually thought her rank was her old alliance rank, except then she bizarrely decides to do Ackbar's job for him, and gets ignored for breaking the chain of command while Poe is busy saving the fleet with the full support of his loyal pilots, all of whom were fully briefed on his plan and accepted the risks and accomplished the mission with a stellar 0% mutiny rate.

    Dongs Galore on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 4
    Admiral (or was it General?) Solo also never had a uniform. Neither did any of the Jedi generals. Neither did General Calrissian. Nevermind looked it up, Calrissian DID wear the uniform.

    Cambiata on
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Master of the House of Lust Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Admiral (or was it General?) Solo also never had a uniform. Neither did any of the Jedi generals. Neither did General Calrissian.

    Lando is wearing a uniform at the Endor briefing, he just has a cape. He has a rank tab on the left breast and the color scheme is the same blue-tan as Leia and Crix Madine's uniform. (god, Lando is so cool. i wish i was lando.)

    The Jedi do not wear a military uniform, but they were part of a totally different army where the regulation was that the Jedi officer corps do not wear any standard uniform (unless you consider those dumb tatooine robes a uniform). In TLJ we clearly see the fleet officer corps wear uniforms.

    It is correct that Han is the only guy in the room not wearing a rank tab or a uniform. You may recall that General Solo is an unprofessional nerf herder and that nobody liked him when they met him either.

    Dongs Galore on
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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    TLJ wants Poe to be the awesome maverick breaks rules all the time fighter jock going on solo missions and the Commander of the Resistance Starfighter Corps, which is kind of an incongruous overlap now I think of it.

    I still think his arc of challenging his leadership style should have come in the form of a rivalry arc with that other Starfighter Officer, who was cool and then got knocked off in 20 minutes to be replaced by Holdo as Poe's chief foil.

    Dongs Galore
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    I think Holdo's entire role in the story could have been done by Leia. She already has basically the same conflict with Poe (doesn't like his command style, just demoted him). She's left in command when Ackbar dies and the crew, even though they respect her leadership, are worried that she has never really commanded a warship. Poe gets increasingly upset that she won't tell him her plan and does his dumb thing. Leia's a long-established character, so people wouldn't be turned off by this random new person, and also she isn't a career admiral, so her falling out with Poe would be more of a personal drama than a weird crisis of command.

    In a way it pretty much was. Leia made it clear to Poe and everyone else that she didn't want Poe in charge at the moment. Holdo taking command over Poe was therefore essentially an extension of Leia's judgement. Poe couldn't bring himself to rebel against Leia personally, but in her absence Holdo was an easier target to justify to himself.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    From the spoiler
    one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo

    My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.

    If Poe had been anywhere close to command he would have been on the other side of the room. Not in the audience.

    You mean the people behind her here?
    1*fmaE5juMvx9bTmoPWcyG6w.png
    I dunno man, who the hell even are those guys? I thought they were also just the audience and D'Acy

    No. He would have been sitting next to D’acy and been in the conversation about who the next leader would be. He would not have been shocked to learn it was not him from the peanut gallery

    wbBv3fj.png
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    jothki wrote: »
    I think Holdo's entire role in the story could have been done by Leia. She already has basically the same conflict with Poe (doesn't like his command style, just demoted him). She's left in command when Ackbar dies and the crew, even though they respect her leadership, are worried that she has never really commanded a warship. Poe gets increasingly upset that she won't tell him her plan and does his dumb thing. Leia's a long-established character, so people wouldn't be turned off by this random new person, and also she isn't a career admiral, so her falling out with Poe would be more of a personal drama than a weird crisis of command.

    In a way it pretty much was. Leia made it clear to Poe and everyone else that she didn't want Poe in charge at the moment. Holdo taking command over Poe was therefore essentially an extension of Leia's judgement. Poe couldn't bring himself to rebel against Leia personally, but in her absence Holdo was an easier target to justify to himself.
    There's also that the audience is likely to go along with Poe when he does his teenage rebellion, which they'd be much less likely if he went against Leia personally. It's not just Poe that's taught a lesson, it's the audience too, at least those who instinctively side with the cocky, brash (male) hero over the calm, collected, reasoned (female) stick-in-the-mud.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited September 4
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes

    And 100% fair dos, but at the same time, the movie uses ranks and the chain of command for plotting.

    Its also pretty fair for someone with even basic leadership training, never mind military experience, or in fact just a natural understanding of such, to say "this is a really poor example of leadership and its kind of scuppering my enjoyment of the movie"

    Solar on
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