I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes
And 100% fair dos, but at the same time, the movie uses ranks and the chain of command for plotting.
Its also pretty fair for someone with even basic leadership training, never mind military experience, or in fact just a natural understanding of such, to say "this is a really poor example of leadership and its kind of scuppering my enjoyment of the movie"
I am not saying it is not valid criticism (I know nothing about rank, I agree with you on leadership), I'm just saying that it's not like they were trying to get it right
A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.
Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.
It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).
However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.
I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.
The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.
Not really and yes, when that entire part of the plot revolves around secrecy, we kinda need to know why it’s secret. Throw away lines to explain why are kinda needed. Like, how did the rebels get the Death Star plans in A New Hope? Vader tells us in the very beginning that, “Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies.” Bam, done, all explained.
How did the Rebels find out about the Death Star in ROTJ? Several bothans died. Explanation done, let’s get t9 the plot.
So why is Holdo’s plan a secret? No, it’s not “so obvious.” Please don’t make your counter argument into some implication that I lack observation. If you think I’m wrong, show me why in the movie. Don’t insinuate that I can’t see the obvious. What part of any of TFA or TLJ implies that there are spies working against the Resistance? What part of the OT?
The movie spells out in painful detail that there is not a tracker on board, but something new that the First Order has. I assume Leiah and Holdo got that information somehow. Was it bothans? Who knows? How did Holdo know they were only tracking larger ships? Is there a spy on board Snoke’s ship beaming transmissions?
Did they ever mention how Rose and Finn know so much about brand new tracker tech? How did they know it’d be offline for six minutes? How did they know only one ship was using it? Finn says once it’s offline, the other ships will start tracking, which implies the other First Order ships can track too, how did he know that? Did he read how it works while mopping as a brainwashed janitor? Why does the First Order only use one ship to track at a time if they can all do it?
It's the exact opposite. The entire plot makes as much sense as plots from a dozen and more other movies that are also commercially and culturally successful. Which leads to the question of why it matters so damn much to some people here, with this movie, and no with any other movie. There's more then enough reasons for Holdo not to tell Poe everything and people have gone over them endlessly in these threads but none of them matter because they don't actually address whatever the real issue people have is.
Also Holdo likes Poe because, like Leai, she clearly sees him as a young hot head but one with potential. And both their reactions to his mutiny are the same. He's doing something stupid and needs to learn to be better but that doesn't mean they don't like him or think he's got a bright future. They are grooming him for command. This is a very classic character arc.
I’m not talking about “other movies” I’m talking about this movie. Other movies being good or bad and wether it’s deserved or not isn’t a defense. If I start comparing this to Infinity War or Fury Road or Aliens or Crimson Tide we can use that defense. The OT and TFA is allowed because TLJ is a sequel.
If there’s more than enough reasons for why Poe is kept in the dark, what are they and what part of the movie tells us this? If it’s Poe’s early fuckup and getting people killed is the reason, cool, but be consistent. If Holdo starts off disliking Poe, I fail to see how almost getting more people killed after publicly accusing her of cowardice and treason and then threatening her and undermining her authority, made her like him all of a sudden. Also, what is this “real issue” you are talking about?
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I find it very strange that there's even an argument that espionage could be a problem, when the whole reason that Finn and Rose's plan nearly dooms the rebellion is because they gave information to someone untrustworthy. Like that moment is Poe showing in spectacular fashion that he shouldn't be given information (since he essentially "outranked" both Rose and Finn and told them to go do what they did).
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I find it very strange that there's even an argument that espionage could be a problem, when the whole reason that Finn and Rose's plan nearly dooms the rebellion is because they gave information to someone untrustworthy. Like that moment is Poe showing in spectacular fashion that he shouldn't be given information (since he essentially "outranked" both Rose and Finn and told them to go do what they did).
I mean, they had to go out and find a traitor. If there was one already on the ship, you solve three issues: You wouldn’t need to make up some new tracker that everyone knows about somehow. You have a reason for secrecy. And you don’t need planet Casino Filler.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I find it very strange that there's even an argument that espionage could be a problem, when the whole reason that Finn and Rose's plan nearly dooms the rebellion is because they gave information to someone untrustworthy. Like that moment is Poe showing in spectacular fashion that he shouldn't be given information (since he essentially "outranked" both Rose and Finn and told them to go do what they did).
Poe being bad with espionage is a consistent flaw, in his first scene in TFA his spy mission against the First Order is completely blown which he doesn't catch onto until the last second. Then gets captured. The plan failing was not solely Fuin and Rose's fault, it was Poe blabbing classified information out loud without considering outsiders may not be trusted with that information. He's a great pilot, but a horrible spy.
one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo
My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.
If Poe had been anywhere close to command he would have been on the other side of the room. Not in the audience.
You mean the people behind her here?
I dunno man, who the hell even are those guys? I thought they were also just the audience and D'Acy
No. He would have been sitting next to D’acy and been in the conversation about who the next leader would be. He would not have been shocked to learn it was not him from the peanut gallery
...did anyone else get the impression he was shocked it wasn't him? He would know the captain of the other ship is the designated successor.
Seriously one of the guys literally right behind Holdo's seat there is a random pilot, the seating arrangement is meaningless dude
okay hold on new information
the next highest ranking starfighter guy is Lt. Cdr. Nien Nunb
who is... sitting next to Poe and also had no input apparently? god, the starfighter corps is just getting totally shafted by these arrogant fleet motherfuckers. It's not even their ship!
So either he wasn't briefed or Poe never asked him to find out, either of which reflects implausibly badly on either Holdo or Poe
Does anyone remember Nunb being in any other scenes besides the ending? prior to learning his rank i thought he was in the mutiny but maybe I'm editing him in next to that other alien pilot in my head
in case anyone thinks I'm ragging on the movie just for its own sake: learning the military ranks of side characters is how i have fun
my appreciation of this film has increased substantially now that i know who is supposed to salute who
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.
Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.
It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).
However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.
I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.
The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.
Not really and yes, when that entire part of the plot revolves around secrecy, we kinda need to know why it’s secret. Throw away lines to explain why are kinda needed. Like, how did the rebels get the Death Star plans in A New Hope? Vader tells us in the very beginning that, “Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies.” Bam, done, all explained.
How did the Rebels find out about the Death Star in ROTJ? Several bothans died. Explanation done, let’s get t9 the plot.
So why is Holdo’s plan a secret? No, it’s not “so obvious.” Please don’t make your counter argument into some implication that I lack observation. If you think I’m wrong, show me why in the movie. Don’t insinuate that I can’t see the obvious. What part of any of TFA or TLJ implies that there are spies working against the Resistance? What part of the OT?
The movie spells out in painful detail that there is not a tracker on board, but something new that the First Order has. I assume Leiah and Holdo got that information somehow. Was it bothans? Who knows? How did Holdo know they were only tracking larger ships? Is there a spy on board Snoke’s ship beaming transmissions?
Did they ever mention how Rose and Finn know so much about brand new tracker tech? How did they know it’d be offline for six minutes? How did they know only one ship was using it? Finn says once it’s offline, the other ships will start tracking, which implies the other First Order ships can track too, how did he know that? Did he read how it works while mopping as a brainwashed janitor? Why does the First Order only use one ship to track at a time if they can all do it?
The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.
This argument or discussion or whatever you want to call it has been done here before. I'm not really interested in doing it again. I feel like my thoughts on the matter are pretty clear from the above statement. If you feel like something has to be explicitly shown or addressed in some way to be considered then there is no real back and forth to be had here. I disagree, let's just leave it at that.
What is the painful detail that the film uses to spell out that there isn't a tracker on board?
Rose and Finn were both theorizing about how the tracker tech would work. Both of them being so knowledgeable about tech that had only been theoretical to this point was a bit absurd to me, and one area that I've never liked in the film.
She doesn't tell Poe her plan because it needs to be kept to need-to-know.
What does Poe do one he does figure out her plan? He goes blabbing about it to other people, and DJ is one of those people who hears the plan, and he tells the First Order about it.
Holdo's plan would have worked had Poe not interfered by sending Rose and Finn off and then blabbing about the plan to them. Everyone would have evacuated to the planet and the First Order would have assumed that they had destroyed all of the Resistance and left.
If it’s so easy to see, where was it show to put a token effort to look for a spy or tracker? Where is it mentioned?
Yes, they should have had a small comment on a possible spy, or somehow a tracker on board, or display an effort to look for either on the ship. It’s not even glossed over. If it’s so obvious that there could be a spy, shouldn’t it be equally obvious effort is taken to counter it. Like, maybe have someone mention that? Or maybe have someone looking for a spy or tracking device? Perhaps when Poe, Rose, and Finn are discussing the tracker and finding a hacker, Poe off handidly says why they aren’t looking for a spy and why their best effort would be to take a light speed capable craft that could potentially be used to help the rest of the Resistance to escape?
The painful detail, as I put it, was the complete lack of mentioning a tracker on the Raddus and how much dialog was spent on the First Order having one. At no point is it ambiguous to how they are being tracked. No mystery. No suspicion. The First Order has a new tracker. Period.
Instead we get a new light speed tracker that doesn’t need to be on the ship that Holdo knows about somehow and an adventure to Casino Planet.
Lastly, if you don’t wanna have the discussion with me, then just don’t have the discussion. I want to have it, you don’t. That’s fine. But don’t tell me I’m wrong, then refuse to engage. If I’m wrong, tell me why. If you don’t want to tell me why, then please don’t be condescending about it.
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If you're looking for a spy, you don't just tell everyone "hey, seen any spies around?"
You seem to be of a mind that if it isn't explicitly stated by a character, it doesn't happen, which means that one cannot even assume basic competence from a character unless they say "I know how to do my job." Otherwise, one can assume that since spies and trackers are how they could be following them, they are looking for them even if they don't tell Poe they are looking for them - because remember, Holdo just fucking said to Poe that she doesn't have to tell him their plan!
But Poe is hot-headed enough that he thinks he knows best.
Frankly, I don't like the "it was tracking through lightspeed somehow" explanation for how they followed the fleet, either. I would have preferred some other method that somehow discoverable but not reversible. But neither Holdo nor Poe knowing for sure how they were being tracked doesn't automatically mean Holdo and Poe are stupid. If one can assume that Holdo is smart enough to vet for spies, then her plan to hide out is going to work even if they don't figure out how exactly the capital ships were being tracked.
If Poe had been read onto the plan to begin with he would not have been forced to fill in the gaps himself. It's not like Leia revoked his clearance when she demoted him.
There was no valid reason for Holdo to withhold this information from the Starfighter Corps, especially because she evidently told the Army commander. Either Poe or Nunb definitely needed to be told about this, if for no other reason than to reassure their own subordinates that there is in fact a plan. Refusing to do so served no OPSEC purpose - does she think Poe or Nunb, who between them have killed two Imperial planetkillers, are traitors? - and was such a bizarre breach of the norm - a new commander refusing to brief the fighter wing on the basic outline of her operational plan for a fleet battle? - that they made a logical conclusion based on the info they had and took action to save the ship.
There are two reasons the starfighter corps command needed to know:
1. They are a highly experienced branch, the elite of the Resistance, and may have vital tactical input.
2. The entire ship has suffered a series of huge morale shocks and needs the officers to steady the men. The officers themselves need to be given tasks and made useful.
Don't pretend morale wasn't collapsing either - they had to post Rose at the escape pods with a taser. The commanders of each branch absolutely needed to be read onto the op plan. There is no excuse for failing to do so.
If you're looking for a spy, you don't just tell everyone "hey, seen any spies around?"
not everyone, just the audience
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
yknow, its kind of weird nobody suspected the ex-stormtrooper who is literally carrying a tracking beacon
It would have been interesting if the First Order followed Finn to Canto Bight because it was him they were tracking somehow, but that would have been an entirely different film with entirely different character arcs for many of the characters.
one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo
My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.
If Poe had been anywhere close to command he would have been on the other side of the room. Not in the audience.
You mean the people behind her here?
I dunno man, who the hell even are those guys? I thought they were also just the audience and D'Acy
No. He would have been sitting next to D’acy and been in the conversation about who the next leader would be. He would not have been shocked to learn it was not him from the peanut gallery
...did anyone else get the impression he was shocked it wasn't him? He would know the captain of the other ship is the designated successor.
Seriously one of the guys literally right behind Holdo's seat there is a random pilot, the seating arrangement is meaningless dude
I think you're misunderstanding @Goumindong. He's not talking about the scene in the film (where seating arrangement is meaningless, as you point out).
He's talking to the off-camera event just before (that presumably happened), when the senior brass decided who's in charge now, where Poe was not given a seat at the table.
(Or at leas, that's how I interpreted Goumindong. Correct me if I'm wrong )
I think the Holdo-Poe arc is dumb and only exists to give Poe something to do. My feelings are that Poe should of respected his commanders authority but Holdo was really dumb for not realizing her command's moral was collapsing and needed hope.
If you're looking for a spy, you don't just tell everyone "hey, seen any spies around?"
You seem to be of a mind that if it isn't explicitly stated by a character, it doesn't happen, which means that one cannot even assume basic competence from a character unless they say "I know how to do my job." Otherwise, one can assume that since spies and trackers are hwo they could be following them, they are looking for them even if they don't tell Poe they are looking for them - because remember, Holdo just fucking said to Poe that she doesn't have to tell him their plan!
But Poe is hot-headed enough that he thinks he knows best.
If you are looking for a spy in a movie, you communicate that to the audience either visually or through dialog.
The point I’m still getting at is that there is no in movie justification for Holdo’s secrecy. I suggested a spy that plants a tracker. There is no spy (until they actively find one). The characters don’t know if there is a spy or not, nor do they mention the possibility. There is no tracker on the ship. The characters do know about the First Order tracker. There is no mention of a possible tracker on the Resistance ship.
Remember in A New Hope when Vader has a tracking device on the Millenium Falcon, how Leia discusses it, then it’s later confirmed by Tarkin? If we take that away, is it still so obvious?
When Vader says Rebel spies sent Leia the Death Star plans. Shouldn’t that be obvious since they got the plans somehow?
When we visually see the probe find the Hoth base. Why can’t we not have that and it be “obvious” the Empire found them.
When Lando tells us that the Empire got to Cloud City first. Did we really need that line? Or to visually see Bobba Fett follow them? Shouldn’t it be obvious by Vader being there that they were followed somehow?
When Mon Mothma says many Bothan spies died to get the location of the Death Star 2, did we really need to know that? Shouldn’t it be obvious that the Rebels found out somehow just by discussing attacking its location?
When Palpatine reveals he knows about the impending Rebel attack, did we need to know that it was his plan to provide the information to lure the Rebels into a trap, wouldn’t that be obvious?
Obviously I’m being sarcastic. A movie needs to justify its logic, either visually or through dialog. We are directly told of the First Order’s tracker. No point of discussion or visuals is spent on a tracker placed on the Raddus. Same with a spy. No visuals, no dialog, so it’s not obvious.
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one reason we know that that Poe was not near command was that he was on the outside looking in at the decision to appoint Holdo
My read of D'Acy's statement was that Holdo, as a vice admiral and commander of the only other capital ship, was the default next in line to the admiral. D'Acy was the one making this procedural decision because she was last surviving bridge officer of the Raddus. It does not reflect on Poe's relative rank.
If Poe had been anywhere close to command he would have been on the other side of the room. Not in the audience.
You mean the people behind her here?
I dunno man, who the hell even are those guys? I thought they were also just the audience and D'Acy
No. He would have been sitting next to D’acy and been in the conversation about who the next leader would be. He would not have been shocked to learn it was not him from the peanut gallery
...did anyone else get the impression he was shocked it wasn't him? He would know the captain of the other ship is the designated successor.
Seriously one of the guys literally right behind Holdo's seat there is a random pilot, the seating arrangement is meaningless dude
I think you're misunderstanding @Goumindong. He's not talking about the scene in the film (where seating arrangement is meaningless, as you point out).
He's talking to the off-camera event just before (that presumably happened), when the senior brass decided who's in charge now, where Poe was not given a seat at the table.
(Or at leas, that's how I interpreted Goumindong. Correct me if I'm wrong )
I meant his earlier comment about "other side of the room" rather than in the audience. As I said, I don't think Poe expected a seat at the table, nor that there was even a major deliberative process on this, for several reasons:
1. D'Acy says she "followed the chain of command," meaning Holdo is the default choice. The Vice Admiral succeeds the Admiral. This is the least controversial decision she could reach. Arguably D'Acy did not even need to make a decision, because Holdo is the highest ranking fleet officer left and therefore is automatically in command - technically the flag would have transferred to Ninka when Ackbar died. If D'Acy gave command to somebody else, that would be mutiny.
2. Fleet command is a fleet matter. Poe is not in the Fleet, he's the Starfighter guy. He would not normally have a seat at the table deciding who takes the flag.
3. Nien Nunb, who as far as I can tell should be Poe's successor, is also not sitting with the big boys (assuming it does signify anything), so as a matter of procedure it does not seem anyone in his branch was expected to be involved in transferring command.
4. Poe did not seem surprised by the announcement that the task force's Vice Admiral (who he knows of by reputation) is the new commander. He is surprised that she is dressed for a dinner party instead of combat.
This makes perfect sense. The fighter command people don't have a say in who takes command of the cruiser. What they should have had visibility on was the operational plans being made involving their personnel.
e: I've seen some people elsewhere suggest Poe was surprised Holdo was a woman but that seems incredibly unlikely. The Resistance Fleet is tiny, he had to know basic biographical details about her even if he had somehow never met her in person (did she never fight a battle with either squadron of the starfighter corps present?)
This is new to me, so sorry if I’m posting old news, but I guess Tom Hardy as well as both Prince Harry and Williams were in the deleted elevator scene.
I don’t know why that amuses me so much, but I think it’s because I’m entertained by the idea of high profile actors and people being given roles where their face is completely covered and you don’t know it’s them.
It kinda reminds me of early South Park, where they’d give guest stars roles as the cat or chicken number 7 or whatever.
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I think the Holdo-Poe arc is dumb and only exists to give Poe something to do. My feelings are that Poe should of respected his commanders authority but Holdo was really dumb for not realizing her command's moral was collapsing and needed hope.
It "gives Poe something to do" in the sense that that's the point of every character arc in fiction ever.
Poe's arc across the film, including the section where he's dealing with Holdo, exists to showcase his growth as a leader. From brash and reckless fighter pilot to resistance leader.
A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.
Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.
It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).
However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.
I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.
It's the exact opposite. The entire plot makes as much sense as plots from a dozen and more other movies that are also commercially and culturally successful. Which leads to the question of why it matters so damn much to some people here, with this movie, and no with any other movie. There's more then enough reasons for Holdo not to tell Poe everything and people have gone over them endlessly in these threads but none of them matter because they don't actually address whatever the real issue people have is.
Also Holdo likes Poe because, like Leai, she clearly sees him as a young hot head but one with potential. And both their reactions to his mutiny are the same. He's doing something stupid and needs to learn to be better but that doesn't mean they don't like him or think he's got a bright future. They are grooming him for command. This is a very classic character arc.
I’m not talking about “other movies” I’m talking about this movie. Other movies being good or bad and wether it’s deserved or not isn’t a defense. If I start comparing this to Infinity War or Fury Road or Aliens or Crimson Tide we can use that defense. The OT and TFA is allowed because TLJ is a sequel.
If there’s more than enough reasons for why Poe is kept in the dark, what are they and what part of the movie tells us this? If it’s Poe’s early fuckup and getting people killed is the reason, cool, but be consistent. If Holdo starts off disliking Poe, I fail to see how almost getting more people killed after publicly accusing her of cowardice and treason and then threatening her and undermining her authority, made her like him all of a sudden. Also, what is this “real issue” you are talking about?
Of course we are talking about other movies. Because the question of "Why is it a problem in this movie but not that movie?" is really very clear in illuminating what the issues are. People have already pointed out perfectly good reasons for it. (eg - it's above his pay grade, they are keeping the plan underwraps to avoid leaks, etc, etc) The question is why aren't they good enough? Which is exactly the point of considering other movies where these kind of explanations just sail by without complaint.
Also, she doesn't go from disliking to liking Poe. Like Leia, she thinks he's an overly brash young man who needs to learn some lessons to develop into the leader she thinks he can be and she treats him as such.
I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes
The Rebels/Resistance in Star Wars have never given a shit about that in general. Or rather, only so far as to have someone who is I guess the leader. Hell, TLJ seems to care about this more then most in that they explicitly seem to have a chain of command and someone to take over from the last leader being dead/incapacitated.
But this time, for some reason, it was a problem.
I mean, fucking Lando is a general in ROTJ because, well, because the filmmakers needed a familiar face leading the Death Star attack.
It isn’t meaningless where Poe was seated in the scene. That there was a gallery behind the command staff seating is irrelevant. Poe would have been seated next to D’acy if he had any part in command.
He was also not “surprised Holdo was wearing a dress” as we see D’acy speak he gets shots of anticipation and then immediately after the announcement we get a shock reaction then we cut to Holdo.
But like, if you were going to read some real super anti-MRA stuff into the film you could have gone with that
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes
The Rebels/Resistance in Star Wars have never given a shit about that in general. Or rather, only so far as to have someone who is I guess the leader. Hell, TLJ seems to care about this more then most in that they explicitly seem to have a chain of command and someone to take over from the last leader being dead/incapacitated.
But this time, for some reason, it was a problem.
I mean, fucking Lando is a general in ROTJ because, well, because the filmmakers needed a familiar face leading the Death Star attack.
Well also his little maneuver at the battle of tanaab
I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes
The Rebels/Resistance in Star Wars have never given a shit about that in general. Or rather, only so far as to have someone who is I guess the leader. Hell, TLJ seems to care about this more then most in that they explicitly seem to have a chain of command and someone to take over from the last leader being dead/incapacitated.
But this time, for some reason, it was a problem.
I mean, fucking Lando is a general in ROTJ because, well, because the filmmakers needed a familiar face leading the Death Star attack.
Well also his little maneuver at the battle of tanaab
A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.
Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.
It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).
However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.
I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.
It's the exact opposite. The entire plot makes as much sense as plots from a dozen and more other movies that are also commercially and culturally successful. Which leads to the question of why it matters so damn much to some people here, with this movie, and no with any other movie. There's more then enough reasons for Holdo not to tell Poe everything and people have gone over them endlessly in these threads but none of them matter because they don't actually address whatever the real issue people have is.
Also Holdo likes Poe because, like Leai, she clearly sees him as a young hot head but one with potential. And both their reactions to his mutiny are the same. He's doing something stupid and needs to learn to be better but that doesn't mean they don't like him or think he's got a bright future. They are grooming him for command. This is a very classic character arc.
I’m not talking about “other movies” I’m talking about this movie. Other movies being good or bad and wether it’s deserved or not isn’t a defense. If I start comparing this to Infinity War or Fury Road or Aliens or Crimson Tide we can use that defense. The OT and TFA is allowed because TLJ is a sequel.
If there’s more than enough reasons for why Poe is kept in the dark, what are they and what part of the movie tells us this? If it’s Poe’s early fuckup and getting people killed is the reason, cool, but be consistent. If Holdo starts off disliking Poe, I fail to see how almost getting more people killed after publicly accusing her of cowardice and treason and then threatening her and undermining her authority, made her like him all of a sudden. Also, what is this “real issue” you are talking about?
Of course we are talking about other movies. Because the question of "Why is it a problem in this movie but not that movie?" is really very clear in illuminating what the issues are. People have already pointed out perfectly good reasons for it. (eg - it's above his pay grade, they are keeping the plan underwraps to avoid leaks, etc, etc) The question is why aren't they good enough? Which is exactly the point of considering other movies where these kind of explanations just sail by without complaint.
Also, she doesn't go from disliking to liking Poe. Like Leia, she thinks he's an overly brash young man who needs to learn some lessons to develop into the leader she thinks he can be and she treats him as such.
Who is talking about other movies? I know I am not. I don’t need to compare to other movies, outside of Star Wars, to be critical of a Star Wars movie. I just have to look at the premise, Holdo has secrets and isn’t telling anyone, including the audience, for reasons. So what is the reason she can’t tell?
It’s never elaborated. The other movies in Star Wars had spies and traitors and trackers, it was elaborated in the plot. Nor was it assumed at every moment. In ROTJ, when there is a huge plan to make a surprise attack on the Death Star 2, when they specifically mention Rebels spying on the Empire, do we get a scene of Mon Mothma telling Lando or Han to just follow orders and not tell him the plan?
Of course not! Loyalty was never an issue among the Rebels, so secrecy never became a plot point.
TLJ in not a spy thriller. Has there ever been a spy issue among the Rebels/Resistance at any point in these movies? And whatever real militaries would do as a justification for this doesn’t fly. If this was “real”, Poe would have been tossed in the brig the absolute moment he went on the bridge and undermined the commanding officer, calling her a coward and a traitor. And he’s lucky he wasn’t executed after attempted mutiny in time of war.
But I don’t think a movie has to always act like “real life” to be enjoyed, but I do expect it to work within its own internal logic. In order for a spy or secrecy or compartmentalism to be used as an excuse, the premise has to be set up. Holdo doesn’t give one and the audience never learns later, it’s just, “Do what you’re told.”
She treats him with disdain the entire movie, then literally says, “I like him,” an actual line Holdo says to Leia after Poe undermines her authority, insults her courage and loyalty in front of her subordinates, then holds her at gun point and mutinies.
A story has to be internally consistent. If the audience has to fill in for inconsistencies in the plot, it’s bad writing, or at least that part is.
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I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes
The Rebels/Resistance in Star Wars have never given a shit about that in general. Or rather, only so far as to have someone who is I guess the leader. Hell, TLJ seems to care about this more then most in that they explicitly seem to have a chain of command and someone to take over from the last leader being dead/incapacitated.
But this time, for some reason, it was a problem.
I mean, fucking Lando is a general in ROTJ because, well, because the filmmakers needed a familiar face leading the Death Star attack.
The Rebel Alliance in the OTS had a chain of command, it just was never a central plot point. It is a problem in TLJ precisely because they made it a central plot point but didn't think it through enough for it to make sense.
The OTS didn't always pay a lot of attention to the military details. iirc, Empire and ROTJ's costumers used totally inconsistent rank insignia for the Imperials, for example. Luke is allowed to be a combat pilot at Yavin just because Biggs was his childhood friend or something. They were able to skate by on this because pulling rank isn't a major plot point for anyone. Leia and Luke are generals in Empire, but don't really have command of large forces for most of the film. Luke (I think?) commanded the Snowspeeders at Hoth, Leia briefs the transport crews and Han in ROTJ gets promoted to general just so he can lead a suicide mission to Endor.
Lando is a general because of his maneuver at the Battle of Taanab, which is probably a higher qualification than the other three have. He is actually shown making important tactical decisions for huge forces in the Battle of Endor. Significantly, there is a clear delineation of command between General Calrissian and Admiral Ackbar - Lando cannot order the capital ships to do things, and he actually has to argue with Admiral Ackbar about moving the fleet in closer to the Star Destroyers in order to screen the cruisers from the Death Star's fire. At one point Admiral Ackbar orders the fleet to withdraw, but is talked down by General Calrissian. They have a dialog which kind of makes sense for two senior officers commanding a joint task force.
There is another critical omission which makes Holdo stick out. In all three OTS films, prior to major military operations (Yavin, Hoth, Endor), there is a briefing scene of some kind:
-General Dodonna explains to the X-Wing and Y-Wing crews what the Death Star mission is. Several pilots ask questions and receive answers.
-General Organa briefs the transport crews on the firing pattern of the Ion Cannon and their launch schedule. A pilot expresses concern about the weakness of their escort, and receives answers.
-Admiral Ackbar and General Madine brief the command staff of the Alliance Fleet on the various operations about to be launched over Endor, including assigning the commanding officers of the task forces. I don't think anyone asks any questions in this one.
This is how Holdo briefs her assembled officers: "We are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic. That spark, this Resistance, must survive. That is our mission. Now to your stations, and may the Force be with us."
That's it. Their mission is "survive." The Admiral offers no operational guidance on how to achieve this mission. Nobody asks questions, or asks her to give them something more concrete than a platitude about brushfires. After this laughably inadequate debut, Poe asks for clarification, but is told to fuck off and stand his post.
Do you really, honestly not see a difference in the plausible military aspects of these two scenes? In the deportment of the OTS command staff and the deportment of Admiral Holdo?
Even Mon Mothma (btw she's referred to as "Senator" not "General" in Rogue One so don't tell me she's a military leader) in ROTJ offers concrete background information as an introduction to Ackbar's speech, not just a hollow platitude. Holdo is a huge downgrade even from the OTS' admittedly flimsy standard of command.
It isn’t meaningless where Poe was seated in the scene. That there was a gallery behind the command staff seating is irrelevant. Poe would have been seated next to D’acy if he had any part in command.
He was also not “surprised Holdo was wearing a dress” as we see D’acy speak he gets shots of anticipation and then immediately after the announcement we get a shock reaction then we cut to Holdo.
But like, if you were going to read some real super anti-MRA stuff into the film you could have gone with that
It's frustrating because there doesn't seem to be a clip of this scene on youtube but I don't remember these cuts of Poe's anticipation at all
If she'd have told everyone, she could have probably settled a lot of nerves and stabilised morale a lot
What makes it a total joke is that Leia explains the plan in a single sentence and Poe's reaction is just "oh ok that works"
man, imagine the Battle of Hoth only the "two X-Wings against a Star Destroyer!?" guy gets totally shut down by Leia for questioning her orders so he embarks on a zany plot to assassinate Captain Needa using three wampas and a tauntaun
then we cut to him standing on the gore-soaked bridge of the star destroyer and he sees the ion cannon go off and is like "oooooh"
I think all of this stems from TLJ(and Star Wars in general, really) not giving a shit about military protocol if it got in the way of the film's themes
The Rebels/Resistance in Star Wars have never given a shit about that in general. Or rather, only so far as to have someone who is I guess the leader. Hell, TLJ seems to care about this more then most in that they explicitly seem to have a chain of command and someone to take over from the last leader being dead/incapacitated.
But this time, for some reason, it was a problem.
I mean, fucking Lando is a general in ROTJ because, well, because the filmmakers needed a familiar face leading the Death Star attack.
Well also his little maneuver at the battle of tanaab
Also, dat cape.
It's a common misconception that Lando was promoted to General, when, in fact, it was his wardrobe.
Lando is just along for the ride.
Basically that narrative arc is based on the idea that Poe is dumb and stupid for expecting that he, a mere commander of the entire embarked starfighter wing, would expect there to be some sort of plan beyond "stand around and good luck" and maybe feel like this is not exactly good enough from the brand new CO who basically seems to have no plan whatsoever. Unfortunately Poe comes off like a whiny piss-baby, which kind of sucks, because it basically looks like Holdo is vaguely incompetent and Poe is hugely unprofessional and then we learn that the Resistance has a big desertion and problem and wow, these guys actually kind of suck at this...
If she'd have told everyone, she could have probably settled a lot of nerves and stabilised morale a lot
Not the worst plan ever. Though I’d be remiss to not to point out that the First Order had a de-cloaking function the entire time, *but didn’t keep that on a constant loop for some reason*? Not that the Resistance would have reason to know that, so it’s fine I guess. (Even though the Resistance has full knowledge of the tracker and its capabilities and limitations.)
Although, they were also close enough for Snoke’s throne room to see them with a literal magnifying glass.
*Ya know, thinking about it, it would have been a fantastic plot point that the reason the First Order is so comically incompetent or immature at times is a side effect of the brainwashing they give to all the kidnapped children. (I’m looking at you Phamsa with space-ax execution and Huxley falling for “can you hear me now/yo momma” jokes). Shame that hasn’t been explored further.
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A lot of the issues with Holdo really have little to do with Holdo, but the nonsensical writing of the situation. She's just a focus of the ire because her plot point is unnecessary.
Why keep the secret at all? She never gives a reason for not telling anyone nor does the movie present one. It's just because she says so in order to manufacture drama.
It would have been much better for the movie if the First Order didn't have some silly tracking system and just remember that A New Hope exists and that the Millennium Falcon had a tracker on it. So in TLJ, a spy places a tracker on the Resistance ship, justifying secrecy, also cutting out that waste of time casino planet. Poe, Finn, and Rose would still have something to do. You can even add Benicio in some manner and we'll be wondering who is the spy between them. It justifies Holdo's secrecy, we don't have to write why only one of the First Order's ship's can track at a time (even though Finn says the other ships can if the main one is disabled).
However, what really sealed it for me not liking Holdo's character was how easily she forgave Poe after what he did. The entire movie, she's antagonistic to him and shows no reason to like, trust, or respect him. Later, Poe walks in and calls her a coward and a traitor in front of every single subordinate on the bridge, then he mutinies and holds Holdo at gun point. After all that is said and done, Holdo "likes" Poe despite that he insulted her, threatened her, and put the lives of every person on the ship in danger.
I'm sorry, but that's both poor character and plot writing for the sake of drama that wasn't needed.
It's the exact opposite. The entire plot makes as much sense as plots from a dozen and more other movies that are also commercially and culturally successful. Which leads to the question of why it matters so damn much to some people here, with this movie, and no with any other movie. There's more then enough reasons for Holdo not to tell Poe everything and people have gone over them endlessly in these threads but none of them matter because they don't actually address whatever the real issue people have is.
Also Holdo likes Poe because, like Leai, she clearly sees him as a young hot head but one with potential. And both their reactions to his mutiny are the same. He's doing something stupid and needs to learn to be better but that doesn't mean they don't like him or think he's got a bright future. They are grooming him for command. This is a very classic character arc.
I’m not talking about “other movies” I’m talking about this movie. Other movies being good or bad and wether it’s deserved or not isn’t a defense. If I start comparing this to Infinity War or Fury Road or Aliens or Crimson Tide we can use that defense. The OT and TFA is allowed because TLJ is a sequel.
If there’s more than enough reasons for why Poe is kept in the dark, what are they and what part of the movie tells us this? If it’s Poe’s early fuckup and getting people killed is the reason, cool, but be consistent. If Holdo starts off disliking Poe, I fail to see how almost getting more people killed after publicly accusing her of cowardice and treason and then threatening her and undermining her authority, made her like him all of a sudden. Also, what is this “real issue” you are talking about?
Of course we are talking about other movies. Because the question of "Why is it a problem in this movie but not that movie?" is really very clear in illuminating what the issues are. People have already pointed out perfectly good reasons for it. (eg - it's above his pay grade, they are keeping the plan underwraps to avoid leaks, etc, etc) The question is why aren't they good enough? Which is exactly the point of considering other movies where these kind of explanations just sail by without complaint.
Also, she doesn't go from disliking to liking Poe. Like Leia, she thinks he's an overly brash young man who needs to learn some lessons to develop into the leader she thinks he can be and she treats him as such.
Who is talking about other movies? I know I am not. I don’t need to compare to other movies, outside of Star Wars, to be critical of a Star Wars movie. I just have to look at the premise, Holdo has secrets and isn’t telling anyone, including the audience, for reasons. So what is the reason she can’t tell?
It’s never elaborated. The other movies in Star Wars had spies and traitors and trackers, it was elaborated in the plot. Nor was it assumed at every moment. In ROTJ, when there is a huge plan to make a surprise attack on the Death Star 2, when they specifically mention Rebels spying on the Empire, do we get a scene of Mon Mothma telling Lando or Han to just follow orders and not tell him the plan?
Of course not! Loyalty was never an issue among the Rebels, so secrecy never became a plot point.
TLJ in not a spy thriller. Has there ever been a spy issue among the Rebels/Resistance at any point in these movies? And whatever real militaries would do as a justification for this doesn’t fly. If this was “real”, Poe would have been tossed in the brig the absolute moment he went on the bridge and undermined the commanding officer, calling her a coward and a traitor. And he’s lucky he wasn’t executed after attempted mutiny in time of war.
But I don’t think a movie has to always act like “real life” to be enjoyed, but I do expect it to work within its own internal logic. In order for a spy or secrecy or compartmentalism to be used as an excuse, the premise has to be set up. Holdo doesn’t give one and the audience never learns later, it’s just, “Do what you’re told.”
She treats him with disdain the entire movie, then literally says, “I like him,” an actual line Holdo says to Leia after Poe undermines her authority, insults her courage and loyalty in front of her subordinates, then holds her at gun point and mutinies.
A story has to be internally consistent. If the audience has to fill in for inconsistencies in the plot, it’s bad writing, or at least that part is.
People have already given you explanations for exactly the issues you are talking about. The plot is as coherent as a hundred other perfectly good movies in Star Wars, in genre film and anywhere. So why aren't they good enough? Why is it a problem here and not there?
The movie is pretty clear about the whole thing. She literally outright tells him he's too impulsive, she points out his actions already cost them their entire bombing fleet and then tells him exactly what everyone keeps telling you: you don't need to know. He's not high enough on the chain of command to be in on it. All of which are perfectly valid reasons. And are established in a dialogue scene, so there's your "premise" being "set up". She actually tells him more then she needs to since "Follow your orders" is more then enough technically. That elaboration mostly in service of characterization and clarity for the audience. Also, you don't see Han or Lando getting told the same because they don't question their orders the way Poe does.
And this is all kinda the point right. Why should Poe be told? He's just a newly demoted Captain (I think it was captain at that point). He has some "right to know" based on his status within as a protagonist I guess? He's not calling the shots. You make the assumption that because he's the brash male hero protagonist, he should be in on it. Despite their being no reason for it.
PS - The whole thing about her "I like him" line is pretty interesting too in that it's an extremely typical example of a very common trope. The whole strict instructor/commander/etc character who secretly likes the student protagonist but is hard on them because it's what they need to grow and learn. The whole scene where said character walks up to another character or similar or higher rank and goes "I like him/her" is practically a cliche. And yet here, it's a plot hole or something? Why now?
...Holdo's plan would have worked had Poe not interfered by sending Rose and Finn off and then blabbing about the plan to them. Everyone would have evacuated to the planet and the First Order would have assumed that they had destroyed all of the Resistance and left.
I agree with Mr. Plinkett on this one. Holdo's plan would have worked if Poe had not interfered yes, but it also relied on the First Order not looking out of their giant windows, neglecting to do any scanning, assuming that the entire Resistance stayed on their ship until the very end, and not taking any logical steps like using evacuation pods.
I think you could make an argument that based off of what we're shown in The Last Jedi that yes the First Order is staffed entirely by idiots who wouldn't be able to find work aboard Dark Helmet's ship. I personally don't find this level of incompetence to be particularly interesting outside of a comedy.
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I am not saying it is not valid criticism (I know nothing about rank, I agree with you on leadership), I'm just saying that it's not like they were trying to get it right
Not really and yes, when that entire part of the plot revolves around secrecy, we kinda need to know why it’s secret. Throw away lines to explain why are kinda needed. Like, how did the rebels get the Death Star plans in A New Hope? Vader tells us in the very beginning that, “Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies.” Bam, done, all explained.
How did the Rebels find out about the Death Star in ROTJ? Several bothans died. Explanation done, let’s get t9 the plot.
So why is Holdo’s plan a secret? No, it’s not “so obvious.” Please don’t make your counter argument into some implication that I lack observation. If you think I’m wrong, show me why in the movie. Don’t insinuate that I can’t see the obvious. What part of any of TFA or TLJ implies that there are spies working against the Resistance? What part of the OT?
The movie spells out in painful detail that there is not a tracker on board, but something new that the First Order has. I assume Leiah and Holdo got that information somehow. Was it bothans? Who knows? How did Holdo know they were only tracking larger ships? Is there a spy on board Snoke’s ship beaming transmissions?
Did they ever mention how Rose and Finn know so much about brand new tracker tech? How did they know it’d be offline for six minutes? How did they know only one ship was using it? Finn says once it’s offline, the other ships will start tracking, which implies the other First Order ships can track too, how did he know that? Did he read how it works while mopping as a brainwashed janitor? Why does the First Order only use one ship to track at a time if they can all do it?
I’m not talking about “other movies” I’m talking about this movie. Other movies being good or bad and wether it’s deserved or not isn’t a defense. If I start comparing this to Infinity War or Fury Road or Aliens or Crimson Tide we can use that defense. The OT and TFA is allowed because TLJ is a sequel.
If there’s more than enough reasons for why Poe is kept in the dark, what are they and what part of the movie tells us this? If it’s Poe’s early fuckup and getting people killed is the reason, cool, but be consistent. If Holdo starts off disliking Poe, I fail to see how almost getting more people killed after publicly accusing her of cowardice and treason and then threatening her and undermining her authority, made her like him all of a sudden. Also, what is this “real issue” you are talking about?
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I mean, they had to go out and find a traitor. If there was one already on the ship, you solve three issues: You wouldn’t need to make up some new tracker that everyone knows about somehow. You have a reason for secrecy. And you don’t need planet Casino Filler.
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Poe being bad with espionage is a consistent flaw, in his first scene in TFA his spy mission against the First Order is completely blown which he doesn't catch onto until the last second. Then gets captured. The plan failing was not solely Fuin and Rose's fault, it was Poe blabbing classified information out loud without considering outsiders may not be trusted with that information. He's a great pilot, but a horrible spy.
...did anyone else get the impression he was shocked it wasn't him? He would know the captain of the other ship is the designated successor.
Seriously one of the guys literally right behind Holdo's seat there is a random pilot, the seating arrangement is meaningless dude
the next highest ranking starfighter guy is Lt. Cdr. Nien Nunb
who is... sitting next to Poe and also had no input apparently? god, the starfighter corps is just getting totally shafted by these arrogant fleet motherfuckers. It's not even their ship!
So either he wasn't briefed or Poe never asked him to find out, either of which reflects implausibly badly on either Holdo or Poe
Does anyone remember Nunb being in any other scenes besides the ending? prior to learning his rank i thought he was in the mutiny but maybe I'm editing him in next to that other alien pilot in my head
I'm pretty sure that's the most militarily accurate thing going on in the movie, based on conversations with my Dad and brother (Naval aviators each).
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my appreciation of this film has increased substantially now that i know who is supposed to salute who
The mere possibility that a tracker may have been placed on one of the ships, or that a spy of some sort may be sending the First Order their location, is more than enough to justify Holdo's secrecy. And those possibilities are so obvious they didn't even need to be explicitly spelled out on screen.
This argument or discussion or whatever you want to call it has been done here before. I'm not really interested in doing it again. I feel like my thoughts on the matter are pretty clear from the above statement. If you feel like something has to be explicitly shown or addressed in some way to be considered then there is no real back and forth to be had here. I disagree, let's just leave it at that.
What is the painful detail that the film uses to spell out that there isn't a tracker on board?
Rose and Finn were both theorizing about how the tracker tech would work. Both of them being so knowledgeable about tech that had only been theoretical to this point was a bit absurd to me, and one area that I've never liked in the film.
What does Poe do one he does figure out her plan? He goes blabbing about it to other people, and DJ is one of those people who hears the plan, and he tells the First Order about it.
Holdo's plan would have worked had Poe not interfered by sending Rose and Finn off and then blabbing about the plan to them. Everyone would have evacuated to the planet and the First Order would have assumed that they had destroyed all of the Resistance and left.
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If it’s so easy to see, where was it show to put a token effort to look for a spy or tracker? Where is it mentioned?
Yes, they should have had a small comment on a possible spy, or somehow a tracker on board, or display an effort to look for either on the ship. It’s not even glossed over. If it’s so obvious that there could be a spy, shouldn’t it be equally obvious effort is taken to counter it. Like, maybe have someone mention that? Or maybe have someone looking for a spy or tracking device? Perhaps when Poe, Rose, and Finn are discussing the tracker and finding a hacker, Poe off handidly says why they aren’t looking for a spy and why their best effort would be to take a light speed capable craft that could potentially be used to help the rest of the Resistance to escape?
The painful detail, as I put it, was the complete lack of mentioning a tracker on the Raddus and how much dialog was spent on the First Order having one. At no point is it ambiguous to how they are being tracked. No mystery. No suspicion. The First Order has a new tracker. Period.
Instead we get a new light speed tracker that doesn’t need to be on the ship that Holdo knows about somehow and an adventure to Casino Planet.
Lastly, if you don’t wanna have the discussion with me, then just don’t have the discussion. I want to have it, you don’t. That’s fine. But don’t tell me I’m wrong, then refuse to engage. If I’m wrong, tell me why. If you don’t want to tell me why, then please don’t be condescending about it.
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You seem to be of a mind that if it isn't explicitly stated by a character, it doesn't happen, which means that one cannot even assume basic competence from a character unless they say "I know how to do my job." Otherwise, one can assume that since spies and trackers are how they could be following them, they are looking for them even if they don't tell Poe they are looking for them - because remember, Holdo just fucking said to Poe that she doesn't have to tell him their plan!
But Poe is hot-headed enough that he thinks he knows best.
Frankly, I don't like the "it was tracking through lightspeed somehow" explanation for how they followed the fleet, either. I would have preferred some other method that somehow discoverable but not reversible. But neither Holdo nor Poe knowing for sure how they were being tracked doesn't automatically mean Holdo and Poe are stupid. If one can assume that Holdo is smart enough to vet for spies, then her plan to hide out is going to work even if they don't figure out how exactly the capital ships were being tracked.
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There was no valid reason for Holdo to withhold this information from the Starfighter Corps, especially because she evidently told the Army commander. Either Poe or Nunb definitely needed to be told about this, if for no other reason than to reassure their own subordinates that there is in fact a plan. Refusing to do so served no OPSEC purpose - does she think Poe or Nunb, who between them have killed two Imperial planetkillers, are traitors? - and was such a bizarre breach of the norm - a new commander refusing to brief the fighter wing on the basic outline of her operational plan for a fleet battle? - that they made a logical conclusion based on the info they had and took action to save the ship.
There are two reasons the starfighter corps command needed to know:
1. They are a highly experienced branch, the elite of the Resistance, and may have vital tactical input.
2. The entire ship has suffered a series of huge morale shocks and needs the officers to steady the men. The officers themselves need to be given tasks and made useful.
Don't pretend morale wasn't collapsing either - they had to post Rose at the escape pods with a taser. The commanders of each branch absolutely needed to be read onto the op plan. There is no excuse for failing to do so.
not everyone, just the audience
It would have been interesting if the First Order followed Finn to Canto Bight because it was him they were tracking somehow, but that would have been an entirely different film with entirely different character arcs for many of the characters.
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I think you're misunderstanding @Goumindong. He's not talking about the scene in the film (where seating arrangement is meaningless, as you point out).
He's talking to the off-camera event just before (that presumably happened), when the senior brass decided who's in charge now, where Poe was not given a seat at the table.
(Or at leas, that's how I interpreted Goumindong. Correct me if I'm wrong
If you are looking for a spy in a movie, you communicate that to the audience either visually or through dialog.
The point I’m still getting at is that there is no in movie justification for Holdo’s secrecy. I suggested a spy that plants a tracker. There is no spy (until they actively find one). The characters don’t know if there is a spy or not, nor do they mention the possibility. There is no tracker on the ship. The characters do know about the First Order tracker. There is no mention of a possible tracker on the Resistance ship.
Remember in A New Hope when Vader has a tracking device on the Millenium Falcon, how Leia discusses it, then it’s later confirmed by Tarkin? If we take that away, is it still so obvious?
When Vader says Rebel spies sent Leia the Death Star plans. Shouldn’t that be obvious since they got the plans somehow?
When we visually see the probe find the Hoth base. Why can’t we not have that and it be “obvious” the Empire found them.
When Lando tells us that the Empire got to Cloud City first. Did we really need that line? Or to visually see Bobba Fett follow them? Shouldn’t it be obvious by Vader being there that they were followed somehow?
When Mon Mothma says many Bothan spies died to get the location of the Death Star 2, did we really need to know that? Shouldn’t it be obvious that the Rebels found out somehow just by discussing attacking its location?
When Palpatine reveals he knows about the impending Rebel attack, did we need to know that it was his plan to provide the information to lure the Rebels into a trap, wouldn’t that be obvious?
Obviously I’m being sarcastic. A movie needs to justify its logic, either visually or through dialog. We are directly told of the First Order’s tracker. No point of discussion or visuals is spent on a tracker placed on the Raddus. Same with a spy. No visuals, no dialog, so it’s not obvious.
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I meant his earlier comment about "other side of the room" rather than in the audience. As I said, I don't think Poe expected a seat at the table, nor that there was even a major deliberative process on this, for several reasons:
1. D'Acy says she "followed the chain of command," meaning Holdo is the default choice. The Vice Admiral succeeds the Admiral. This is the least controversial decision she could reach. Arguably D'Acy did not even need to make a decision, because Holdo is the highest ranking fleet officer left and therefore is automatically in command - technically the flag would have transferred to Ninka when Ackbar died. If D'Acy gave command to somebody else, that would be mutiny.
2. Fleet command is a fleet matter. Poe is not in the Fleet, he's the Starfighter guy. He would not normally have a seat at the table deciding who takes the flag.
3. Nien Nunb, who as far as I can tell should be Poe's successor, is also not sitting with the big boys (assuming it does signify anything), so as a matter of procedure it does not seem anyone in his branch was expected to be involved in transferring command.
4. Poe did not seem surprised by the announcement that the task force's Vice Admiral (who he knows of by reputation) is the new commander. He is surprised that she is dressed for a dinner party instead of combat.
This makes perfect sense. The fighter command people don't have a say in who takes command of the cruiser. What they should have had visibility on was the operational plans being made involving their personnel.
e: I've seen some people elsewhere suggest Poe was surprised Holdo was a woman but that seems incredibly unlikely. The Resistance Fleet is tiny, he had to know basic biographical details about her even if he had somehow never met her in person (did she never fight a battle with either squadron of the starfighter corps present?)
I don’t know why that amuses me so much, but I think it’s because I’m entertained by the idea of high profile actors and people being given roles where their face is completely covered and you don’t know it’s them.
It kinda reminds me of early South Park, where they’d give guest stars roles as the cat or chicken number 7 or whatever.
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It "gives Poe something to do" in the sense that that's the point of every character arc in fiction ever.
Poe's arc across the film, including the section where he's dealing with Holdo, exists to showcase his growth as a leader. From brash and reckless fighter pilot to resistance leader.
Of course we are talking about other movies. Because the question of "Why is it a problem in this movie but not that movie?" is really very clear in illuminating what the issues are. People have already pointed out perfectly good reasons for it. (eg - it's above his pay grade, they are keeping the plan underwraps to avoid leaks, etc, etc) The question is why aren't they good enough? Which is exactly the point of considering other movies where these kind of explanations just sail by without complaint.
Also, she doesn't go from disliking to liking Poe. Like Leia, she thinks he's an overly brash young man who needs to learn some lessons to develop into the leader she thinks he can be and she treats him as such.
The Rebels/Resistance in Star Wars have never given a shit about that in general. Or rather, only so far as to have someone who is I guess the leader. Hell, TLJ seems to care about this more then most in that they explicitly seem to have a chain of command and someone to take over from the last leader being dead/incapacitated.
But this time, for some reason, it was a problem.
I mean, fucking Lando is a general in ROTJ because, well, because the filmmakers needed a familiar face leading the Death Star attack.
He was also not “surprised Holdo was wearing a dress” as we see D’acy speak he gets shots of anticipation and then immediately after the announcement we get a shock reaction then we cut to Holdo.
But like, if you were going to read some real super anti-MRA stuff into the film you could have gone with that
Well also his little maneuver at the battle of tanaab
Also, dat cape.
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Who is talking about other movies? I know I am not. I don’t need to compare to other movies, outside of Star Wars, to be critical of a Star Wars movie. I just have to look at the premise, Holdo has secrets and isn’t telling anyone, including the audience, for reasons. So what is the reason she can’t tell?
It’s never elaborated. The other movies in Star Wars had spies and traitors and trackers, it was elaborated in the plot. Nor was it assumed at every moment. In ROTJ, when there is a huge plan to make a surprise attack on the Death Star 2, when they specifically mention Rebels spying on the Empire, do we get a scene of Mon Mothma telling Lando or Han to just follow orders and not tell him the plan?
Of course not! Loyalty was never an issue among the Rebels, so secrecy never became a plot point.
TLJ in not a spy thriller. Has there ever been a spy issue among the Rebels/Resistance at any point in these movies? And whatever real militaries would do as a justification for this doesn’t fly. If this was “real”, Poe would have been tossed in the brig the absolute moment he went on the bridge and undermined the commanding officer, calling her a coward and a traitor. And he’s lucky he wasn’t executed after attempted mutiny in time of war.
But I don’t think a movie has to always act like “real life” to be enjoyed, but I do expect it to work within its own internal logic. In order for a spy or secrecy or compartmentalism to be used as an excuse, the premise has to be set up. Holdo doesn’t give one and the audience never learns later, it’s just, “Do what you’re told.”
She treats him with disdain the entire movie, then literally says, “I like him,” an actual line Holdo says to Leia after Poe undermines her authority, insults her courage and loyalty in front of her subordinates, then holds her at gun point and mutinies.
A story has to be internally consistent. If the audience has to fill in for inconsistencies in the plot, it’s bad writing, or at least that part is.
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The Rebel Alliance in the OTS had a chain of command, it just was never a central plot point. It is a problem in TLJ precisely because they made it a central plot point but didn't think it through enough for it to make sense.
The OTS didn't always pay a lot of attention to the military details. iirc, Empire and ROTJ's costumers used totally inconsistent rank insignia for the Imperials, for example. Luke is allowed to be a combat pilot at Yavin just because Biggs was his childhood friend or something. They were able to skate by on this because pulling rank isn't a major plot point for anyone. Leia and Luke are generals in Empire, but don't really have command of large forces for most of the film. Luke (I think?) commanded the Snowspeeders at Hoth, Leia briefs the transport crews and Han in ROTJ gets promoted to general just so he can lead a suicide mission to Endor.
Lando is a general because of his maneuver at the Battle of Taanab, which is probably a higher qualification than the other three have. He is actually shown making important tactical decisions for huge forces in the Battle of Endor. Significantly, there is a clear delineation of command between General Calrissian and Admiral Ackbar - Lando cannot order the capital ships to do things, and he actually has to argue with Admiral Ackbar about moving the fleet in closer to the Star Destroyers in order to screen the cruisers from the Death Star's fire. At one point Admiral Ackbar orders the fleet to withdraw, but is talked down by General Calrissian. They have a dialog which kind of makes sense for two senior officers commanding a joint task force.
There is another critical omission which makes Holdo stick out. In all three OTS films, prior to major military operations (Yavin, Hoth, Endor), there is a briefing scene of some kind:
-General Dodonna explains to the X-Wing and Y-Wing crews what the Death Star mission is. Several pilots ask questions and receive answers.
-General Organa briefs the transport crews on the firing pattern of the Ion Cannon and their launch schedule. A pilot expresses concern about the weakness of their escort, and receives answers.
-Admiral Ackbar and General Madine brief the command staff of the Alliance Fleet on the various operations about to be launched over Endor, including assigning the commanding officers of the task forces. I don't think anyone asks any questions in this one.
This is how Holdo briefs her assembled officers: "We are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic. That spark, this Resistance, must survive. That is our mission. Now to your stations, and may the Force be with us."
That's it. Their mission is "survive." The Admiral offers no operational guidance on how to achieve this mission. Nobody asks questions, or asks her to give them something more concrete than a platitude about brushfires. After this laughably inadequate debut, Poe asks for clarification, but is told to fuck off and stand his post.
Do you really, honestly not see a difference in the plausible military aspects of these two scenes? In the deportment of the OTS command staff and the deportment of Admiral Holdo?
Even Mon Mothma (btw she's referred to as "Senator" not "General" in Rogue One so don't tell me she's a military leader) in ROTJ offers concrete background information as an introduction to Ackbar's speech, not just a hollow platitude. Holdo is a huge downgrade even from the OTS' admittedly flimsy standard of command.
It's frustrating because there doesn't seem to be a clip of this scene on youtube but I don't remember these cuts of Poe's anticipation at all
If she'd have told everyone, she could have probably settled a lot of nerves and stabilised morale a lot
man, imagine the Battle of Hoth only the "two X-Wings against a Star Destroyer!?" guy gets totally shut down by Leia for questioning her orders so he embarks on a zany plot to assassinate Captain Needa using three wampas and a tauntaun
then we cut to him standing on the gore-soaked bridge of the star destroyer and he sees the ion cannon go off and is like "oooooh"
It's a common misconception that Lando was promoted to General, when, in fact, it was his wardrobe.
Lando is just along for the ride.
Not the worst plan ever. Though I’d be remiss to not to point out that the First Order had a de-cloaking function the entire time, *but didn’t keep that on a constant loop for some reason*? Not that the Resistance would have reason to know that, so it’s fine I guess. (Even though the Resistance has full knowledge of the tracker and its capabilities and limitations.)
Although, they were also close enough for Snoke’s throne room to see them with a literal magnifying glass.
*Ya know, thinking about it, it would have been a fantastic plot point that the reason the First Order is so comically incompetent or immature at times is a side effect of the brainwashing they give to all the kidnapped children. (I’m looking at you Phamsa with space-ax execution and Huxley falling for “can you hear me now/yo momma” jokes). Shame that hasn’t been explored further.
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People have already given you explanations for exactly the issues you are talking about. The plot is as coherent as a hundred other perfectly good movies in Star Wars, in genre film and anywhere. So why aren't they good enough? Why is it a problem here and not there?
The movie is pretty clear about the whole thing. She literally outright tells him he's too impulsive, she points out his actions already cost them their entire bombing fleet and then tells him exactly what everyone keeps telling you: you don't need to know. He's not high enough on the chain of command to be in on it. All of which are perfectly valid reasons. And are established in a dialogue scene, so there's your "premise" being "set up". She actually tells him more then she needs to since "Follow your orders" is more then enough technically. That elaboration mostly in service of characterization and clarity for the audience. Also, you don't see Han or Lando getting told the same because they don't question their orders the way Poe does.
And this is all kinda the point right. Why should Poe be told? He's just a newly demoted Captain (I think it was captain at that point). He has some "right to know" based on his status within as a protagonist I guess? He's not calling the shots. You make the assumption that because he's the brash male hero protagonist, he should be in on it. Despite their being no reason for it.
PS - The whole thing about her "I like him" line is pretty interesting too in that it's an extremely typical example of a very common trope. The whole strict instructor/commander/etc character who secretly likes the student protagonist but is hard on them because it's what they need to grow and learn. The whole scene where said character walks up to another character or similar or higher rank and goes "I like him/her" is practically a cliche. And yet here, it's a plot hole or something? Why now?
I agree with Mr. Plinkett on this one. Holdo's plan would have worked if Poe had not interfered yes, but it also relied on the First Order not looking out of their giant windows, neglecting to do any scanning, assuming that the entire Resistance stayed on their ship until the very end, and not taking any logical steps like using evacuation pods.
I think you could make an argument that based off of what we're shown in The Last Jedi that yes the First Order is staffed entirely by idiots who wouldn't be able to find work aboard Dark Helmet's ship. I personally don't find this level of incompetence to be particularly interesting outside of a comedy.
Did you read the thread title?