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Debate ad Infinitum: A [Star Wars] Thread

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Posts

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Wasn't Lucas notoriously infuriated by Spaceballs? Or something like that.
    I don't remember ever having read about Lucas being angry about Spaceballs.
    The story I heard was that Brooks went to Lucas and got the thumbs up for the parody before they started filming it, and Lucas gave them the thumbs up with the requirement that there not be any merchandise made for the movie (which gave rise to Yogurt's Merchandising bit).

    Ah. I'm still waiting for The Search for More Money©...

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
    see317OrcaElvenshaeKruiteAbsoluteZeroMild ConfusionJazzSynthesisShadowenDonnictonNightslyr
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Lucas is pretty big on parodies. he loved hardware wars, gave Express permission for family guy and robot chicken star wars specials

    He was in the first Robot Chicken special.

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Wasn't Lucas notoriously infuriated by Spaceballs? Or something like that.
    I don't remember ever having read about Lucas being angry about Spaceballs.
    The story I heard was that Brooks went to Lucas and got the thumbs up for the parody before they started filming it, and Lucas gave them the thumbs up with the requirement that there not be any merchandise made for the movie (which gave rise to Yogurt's Merchandising bit).

    Ah. I'm still waiting for The Search for More Money©...

    I've given up hope for Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money.
    Now, I'm waiting for Spaceballs 3: The Quest for: Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    ElvenshaeAbsoluteZeroMild ConfusionJazzDark Raven XDonnictonNightslyr
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I won’t make any excuses for them. Even when they were new I wasn’t fond of the Plinkett moments because they interrupted the actual criticism. And honestly I find the whole facade tiresome at the very least. Lessons From the Screenplay and Every Frame a Painting are able to communicate without using a character. I can’t fault people who won’t watch them or simply refuse to listen to their arguments. It’s not good enough to be right: you need to also be respectful if you want to deliver a message. Still I did a complete rewatch over the last two weekends as I was painting up some Warhammer. I think their most powerful criticisms are at the beginning and ending where they talk about the blandness of the characters and the failings of Lucas’s digital directing style. A lot of their videos focus on plot holes, and while I think there’s merit in Plinkett’s refrain of “You may have not noticed it, but your brain did” I’ll defer instead to Mr Hitchcock philosophy:
    screenwriter Richard Maibaum discusses working with Alfred Hitchcock on Foreign Correspondent (1940). He says, “I was writer number thirty... primarily I rewrote the... part of the old statesman who was kidnapped. (Hitchcock) said to me, ‘Did you read what we’ve got?’ Which was half a screenplay. I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘What do you think about it?’ I replied, ‘It’s not very logical.’ He grimaced and said, ‘Oh, dear boy, don’t be dull. I’m not interested in logic, I’m interested in effect. If the audience ever thinks about logic, it’s on their way home after the show, and by that time, you see, they’ve paid for their tickets.’”

    They don't use a character because they need to, they use one because they want to. Because they are having fun. And, at least originally, as a sort meta-commentary/joke on the whole idea of nitpicking a piece of "nerd fiction". (it started with their Star Trek reviews after all) It's a fun little bit that they eventually just take too far but there's nothing disrespectful (??) about it.

    LanlaornAtlas in Chains
  • HybridHybrid South AustraliaRegistered User regular
    This might be a total stretch, but as I think about it right this very second it is interesting to think of the gross, creepy, unstable character of the Plinkett reviews in the context of the past few years of gross, creepy men being utter psychopaths in these kind of internet fan communities.

    SarahBlasko_WTSWTSWH_sig2new.jpg
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hybrid wrote: »
    This might be a total stretch, but as I think about it right this very second it is interesting to think of the gross, creepy, unstable character of the Plinkett reviews in the context of the past few years of gross, creepy men being utter psychopaths in these kind of internet fan communities.

    I want to spin this out into some sort of like obvious bit of accidental insight on their part but given the way in which the Plinkett character is a complete psychopath I think it's ultimately just a strange coincidence.

    HybridShadowen
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    At least the EU had a better hook than the Disney trilogy, with the empire being a group of assorted rabble and the Republic being stuck as an established power unable to properly respond.

    Wasn't Lucas notoriously infuriated by Spaceballs? Or something like that.
    Igpx407 wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Thrawn showing up in Rebels as the main antagonist was a perfect way to make him canon.

    The universe gets to offically use an excellent character and the rabid fans of said character get that delicious bone to gnaw on.

    I was super happy with it

    They also have Zahn writing new Thrawn novels. I’ve only read the first one, but I liked it.

    The Hand of Thrawn duology was pretty bad, I felt.

    Synthesis wrote: »
    Kneel wrote: »
    TIE-Fighter...

    *eyes glaze over in nostalgic bliss*

    I am very annoyed that suddenly TIE Fighter (1998) doesn't work with Windows 10...at least on my gaming PC. No explanation, the GOG version just up and stopped working.

    Which I could figure out why. Especially since I've learned there are HOTAS profiles that might make them usable in game.
    I'm glad my desktop has 8, I was just playing it last week.


    Hand of Thrawn duology was weighed down by multiple book trilogies between heir and then that didn't progress Luke and Mara at all, threw in superfluous love interests for Luke and a pile of gimmicks without progressing the universe

    Honestly with NJO coming after the whole thing could have benefited from the duology being a soft reset but they kept the whole original unplanned timeline which was a lot of stupid baggage to carry into the much more plotted njo (which had its own issues).

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
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    CaedwyrThe_InfidelRchanenNightslyr
  • KneelKneel Ten thick coats Registered User regular
    Outbound Flight was pretty good too. It tied together the prequels and the Heir trilogy nicely.

    Want to see more of Kneel's slapdash slatherings?
    Visit him at Monstrous Pigments' Instagram and Facebook pages!
    3EnCIQg.jpg
    ElvenshaeDoctor DetroitCaedwyrSteelhawk
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Whomever decided the default fligh5 controls for battlefront 2 is a bad person and should feel bad

    Elvenshae
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited December 4
    Anyone else doing the Lego Star Wars Advent Calendar this year?

    If so, Day 3 question:
    Is this supposed to be the Shadow Caster?

    It's a bit, uh, nosy.

    Elvenshae on
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  • KetarKetar My autocomplete is a tad agressive today.Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Anyone else doing the Lego Star Wars Advent Calendar this year?

    If so, Day 3 question:
    Is this supposed to be the Shadow Caster?

    It's a bit, uh, nosy.

    I don't think so.
    Not at home, and we just did the first 4 days all at once since we were on vacation for days 1-3, but I think day 3 is Padme's ship. Day 1 was the land speeder and day 2 was Rose, right?

    Elvenshae
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited December 4
    Ketar wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Anyone else doing the Lego Star Wars Advent Calendar this year?

    If so, Day 3 question:
    Is this supposed to be the Shadow Caster?

    It's a bit, uh, nosy.

    I don't think so.
    Not at home, and we just did the first 4 days all at once since we were on vacation for days 1-3, but I think day 3 is Padme's ship. Day 1 was the land speeder and day 2 was Rose, right?

    TBB says it's the Arrowhead, from the Freemaker Adventures.
    More info regarding the ship: Arrowhead
    Full sized kit
    faggijde4v1l.jpg

    see317 on
    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • KetarKetar My autocomplete is a tad agressive today.Registered User regular
    edited December 4
    Yeah, was about to come back and post that. Took my son's word for what it was originally. In spoilers and all though...

    Ketar on
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    edited December 5
    Wait, hold the fucking phone. Star Wars Lego advent calendar? I can assemble them while I watch an episode each day! Thank you Disney execs!

    late edit: I'm not sure how my tone came off here: I am 100% serious about buying a calendar and catching up on Rebels.

    italianranma on
    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Thanks, all!

    @italianranma Yeah, it's been going on for years. Kind of a tradition in my household! I put a new one together each day with my guys. :D

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    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    It'll be another superweapon ,
    see317 wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Anyone else doing the Lego Star Wars Advent Calendar this year?

    If so, Day 3 question:
    Is this supposed to be the Shadow Caster?

    It's a bit, uh, nosy.

    I don't think so.
    Not at home, and we just did the first 4 days all at once since we were on vacation for days 1-3, but I think day 3 is Padme's ship. Day 1 was the land speeder and day 2 was Rose, right?

    TBB says it's the Arrowhead, from the Freemaker Adventures.
    More info regarding the ship: Arrowhead
    Full sized kit
    faggijde4v1l.jpg

    Freemaker is a pretty fun show but very for kids.
    It's kids running a junkyard and they have a reprogrammed clone wars droid as a butler.

    His name is R0-GR and he is the best

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
    ElvenshaeNightslyr
  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    edited December 5
    Interesting article here by the former head of Amazon Studies, Matthew Ball, about the supposed fatigue of Star Wars fans and why it is a myth.

    edit: It's possible this was posted prior given the June publishing date, but I don't remember seeing it. If it is a repost, I apologize.

    Assuran on
    jdarksunThis
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I didn't realize how quickly they put out TFA after the purchase of of the IP.

    italianranma
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    All I know is I got my.tickets to celebration and I am hyped as fuck.
    And I will prop down all the monies for fucking Disney's streaming shit for my star wars tv.
    NOW ANNOUNCE ROGUE SQUADRON SERIES YOU COWARDS

    davidsdurionsKneelNightslyr
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    It'll be another superweapon ,
    see317 wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Anyone else doing the Lego Star Wars Advent Calendar this year?

    If so, Day 3 question:
    Is this supposed to be the Shadow Caster?

    It's a bit, uh, nosy.

    I don't think so.
    Not at home, and we just did the first 4 days all at once since we were on vacation for days 1-3, but I think day 3 is Padme's ship. Day 1 was the land speeder and day 2 was Rose, right?

    TBB says it's the Arrowhead, from the Freemaker Adventures.
    More info regarding the ship: Arrowhead
    Full sized kit
    faggijde4v1l.jpg

    Freemaker is a pretty fun show but very for kids.
    It's kids running a junkyard and they have a reprogrammed clone wars droid as a butler.

    His name is R0-GR and he is the best

    The show has given me one of my favorite Star Wars moments, so I'm definitely a fan.
    In Season 2 they build the aforementioned Arrowhead. It's a starfighter that is also part giant lightsaber.
    In the episode where they complete this ship they take it into combat against a Star Destroyer. Or, more accurately, through a Star Destroyer.
    The pilot character and the kid just stare in wander as they tear through the Star Destroyer from bow to stern.
    Kid: "Wow, these ships are big...
    Pilot: "Yup.

    I tried to find the clip on YouTube, but have been stymied by the fact that the entire series is apparently there.[/qpoiler]
    Yeah, it's definitely for kids, but it's entertaining to watch. I like how they're careful to get close to the canon events, but not to actually show up in the canon events by just a bit.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited December 5
    see317 wrote: »
    It'll be another superweapon ,
    see317 wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Anyone else doing the Lego Star Wars Advent Calendar this year?

    If so, Day 3 question:
    Is this supposed to be the Shadow Caster?

    It's a bit, uh, nosy.

    I don't think so.
    Not at home, and we just did the first 4 days all at once since we were on vacation for days 1-3, but I think day 3 is Padme's ship. Day 1 was the land speeder and day 2 was Rose, right?

    TBB says it's the Arrowhead, from the Freemaker Adventures.
    More info regarding the ship: Arrowhead
    Full sized kit
    faggijde4v1l.jpg

    Freemaker is a pretty fun show but very for kids.
    It's kids running a junkyard and they have a reprogrammed clone wars droid as a butler.

    His name is R0-GR and he is the best

    The show has given me one of my favorite Star Wars moments, so I'm definitely a fan.
    In Season 2 they build the aforementioned Arrowhead. It's a starfighter that is also part giant lightsaber.
    In the episode where they complete this ship they take it into combat against a Star Destroyer. Or, more accurately, through a Star Destroyer.
    The pilot character and the kid just stare in wander as they tear through the Star Destroyer from bow to stern.
    Kid: "Wow, these ships are big...
    Pilot: "Yup.

    I tried to find the clip on YouTube, but have been stymied by the fact that the entire series is apparently there.
    Yeah, it's definitely for kids, but it's entertaining to watch. I like how they're careful to get close to the canon events, but not to actually show up in the canon events by just a bit.

    Oh I never mean it in a bad way when I say it's for kids , I more mean it's a show not afraid to undercut a moment with a dumb fart joke. it's more it's for kids first, adults enjoying it too is just a bonus rather than a directive.

    WiseManTobes on
    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    Assuran wrote: »
    Interesting article here by the former head of Amazon Studies, Matthew Ball, about the supposed fatigue of Star Wars fans and why it is a myth.

    edit: It's possible this was posted prior given the June publishing date, but I don't remember seeing it. If it is a repost, I apologize.

    That’s a good article, and I think several of his insights have merit, but there was one point on which he was wrong:
    George Lucas and Lucasfilm spent more than a decade developing and producing the first Star Wars trilogy, and even longer on the second.

    As you guys read from my summary, while Lucas did indeed develop A New Hope over the course of 4+ years, the rest of the films had significantly shorter development periods; usually starting immediately following the previous film’s release. Moreover Lucas never had a firm vision of the entire trilogy, and retroactively changed plot elements and the viewer’s previous interpretations with each new film. That’s not to say that was a strength of the Lucas era, I think Bell’s comparisons with Marvel and Feige are apt. As are his criticism of Disney. But credit where credit is due and all.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Assuran wrote: »
    Interesting article here by the former head of Amazon Studies, Matthew Ball, about the supposed fatigue of Star Wars fans and why it is a myth.

    edit: It's possible this was posted prior given the June publishing date, but I don't remember seeing it. If it is a repost, I apologize.

    That’s a good article, and I think several of his insights have merit, but there was one point on which he was wrong:
    George Lucas and Lucasfilm spent more than a decade developing and producing the first Star Wars trilogy, and even longer on the second.

    As you guys read from my summary, while Lucas did indeed develop A New Hope over the course of 4+ years, the rest of the films had significantly shorter development periods; usually starting immediately following the previous film’s release. Moreover Lucas never had a firm vision of the entire trilogy, and retroactively changed plot elements and the viewer’s previous interpretations with each new film. That’s not to say that was a strength of the Lucas era, I think Bell’s comparisons with Marvel and Feige are apt. As are his criticism of Disney. But credit where credit is due and all.

    He's wrong on more then one point. This one jumped out at me right away:
    The Force Awakens (TFA, or Episode VII), writer-director J.J. Abrams set up three major antagonists: Supreme Leader Snoke, Captain Phasma and The Knights of Ren. However, Rian Johnson’s The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) quickly killed the first two and ignored the third.

    Like, no? He killed the first one like 3/4s of the way into the film, the other is probably dead and that was still around that same time (can't remember if it's before or after Snoke gets offed honestly) and the third is ignored but then it was barely setup in the first film.

    I'm also curious about how TLJ "fell short of expectations". I don't really agree with his take on what is going on with the film, or with Lucas to whom he is trying to compare the approach to. It doesn't gel with what I've ever read of how Star Wars and it's sequels were made.

    I agree with his general ideas here about needing more time to develop stuff but I don't think a lot of the examples he gives are accurate or actually support his point. And some of it is just strange.

    And I can't get over that it's yet another person not understanding Kylo Ren's apparently now famous line.

    ElvenshaedavidsdurionsNightslyrphysi_marc
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I bet if you asked people who watched both movies who the Knights of Ren even are maybe 95% of them would have no idea what youre talking about.

    shrykeRchanenFencingsaxDonnictonOrcaElvenshaeAbsoluteZeroknitdanNightslyrKetarphysi_marcMild Confusion
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    If so many people misunderstood the line, perhaps the fault is not with the viewer.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    italianranmaSolarMild Confusion
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    If so many people misunderstood the line, perhaps the fault is not with the viewer.

    Nah. Tons of people quote things without understanding the context all the time.

    "Lowest common denominator" is rarely a complement when it comes to filmmaking after all.

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    What quote are we referring to?

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 6
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    What quote are we referring to?
    Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.

    Specifically used here:
    The way to solve this is to tell new stories, not expanded versions of old ones. This is the great irony of The Last Jedi’s most popular and meta line: “Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.” Even though Disney mandated that Episode VII focus on new Star Wars heroes, rather than the original trilogy trio of Luke, Leia and Han, the studio has largely refused to let the past die – even in spinoffs.

    Except it's a line spoken by the villain in a movie that is absolutely in love with Star Wars and who's narrative serves to reaffirm the value in the past on multiple occasions and as a culmination of it's arcs. For that above quote from the article to work though, you have to take the line as being endorsed by the film. (at least, imo)

    shryke on
    ElvenshaedavidsdurionsjdarksunN1tSt4lkerNightslyrphysi_marc
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    What quote are we referring to?
    Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.

    Specifically used here:
    The way to solve this is to tell new stories, not expanded versions of old ones. This is the great irony of The Last Jedi’s most popular and meta line: “Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.” Even though Disney mandated that Episode VII focus on new Star Wars heroes, rather than the original trilogy trio of Luke, Leia and Han, the studio has largely refused to let the past die – even in spinoffs.

    Except it's a line spoken by the villain in a movie that is absolutely in love with Star Wars and who's narrative serves to reaffirm the value in the past on multiple occasions and as a culmination of it's arcs. For that above quote from the article to work though, you have to take the line as being endorsed by the film. (at least, imo)

    I gathered Rian Johnson is just a Suda51 fan.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Assuran wrote: »
    Interesting article here by the former head of Amazon Studies, Matthew Ball, about the supposed fatigue of Star Wars fans and why it is a myth.

    edit: It's possible this was posted prior given the June publishing date, but I don't remember seeing it. If it is a repost, I apologize.

    That’s a good article, and I think several of his insights have merit, but there was one point on which he was wrong:
    George Lucas and Lucasfilm spent more than a decade developing and producing the first Star Wars trilogy, and even longer on the second.

    As you guys read from my summary, while Lucas did indeed develop A New Hope over the course of 4+ years, the rest of the films had significantly shorter development periods; usually starting immediately following the previous film’s release. Moreover Lucas never had a firm vision of the entire trilogy, and retroactively changed plot elements and the viewer’s previous interpretations with each new film. That’s not to say that was a strength of the Lucas era, I think Bell’s comparisons with Marvel and Feige are apt. As are his criticism of Disney. But credit where credit is due and all.

    He's wrong on more then one point. This one jumped out at me right away:
    The Force Awakens (TFA, or Episode VII), writer-director J.J. Abrams set up three major antagonists: Supreme Leader Snoke, Captain Phasma and The Knights of Ren. However, Rian Johnson’s The Last Jedi (Episode VIII) quickly killed the first two and ignored the third.

    Like, no? He killed the first one like 3/4s of the way into the film, the other is probably dead and that was still around that same time (can't remember if it's before or after Snoke gets offed honestly) and the third is ignored but then it was barely setup in the first film.

    I'm also curious about how TLJ "fell short of expectations". I don't really agree with his take on what is going on with the film, or with Lucas to whom he is trying to compare the approach to. It doesn't gel with what I've ever read of how Star Wars and it's sequels were made.

    I agree with his general ideas here about needing more time to develop stuff but I don't think a lot of the examples he gives are accurate or actually support his point. And some of it is just strange.

    And I can't get over that it's yet another person not understanding Kylo Ren's apparently now famous line.

    "Quickly killed" doesn't refer to the time stamp in the movie where they died. It refers to the abrupt nature of their ends. Neither of them had much of their storytelling potential tapped. Snoke has been talked about ad nauseam, so I won't bother beyond saying that I didn't like it. Phasma on the other hand, was killed off almost as soon as it was revealed she was alive. Bringing her back should have amounted to something interesting, but one lame fight was all she mustered.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I mean the Ren line made sense in the trailer and made the same sense in the movie. I don't think there's really that much confusion.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    I mean the Ren line made sense in the trailer and made the same sense in the movie. I don't think there's really that much confusion.

    The problem is that people take it as a thesis for the movie rather than an antithesis. Though I think the first part is probably right it’s the second part that is giving Ren problems.

    You cannot let the past die if you have to kill it. If you have to kill it then the past is controlling you. You haven’t moved on.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I mean, part of the problem is that it's the strongest ethos expressed of the new series. The only thing that comes close is Rose's protect rather than sacrifice, and Rogue One puts the lie to that

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    Atlas in Chainsjdarksun
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I mean Yoda has a whole scene where he sits the audience down and tells them what the thesis is.

    ElvenshaeShadowenGoumindongshrykedavidsdurionsJazzKruiteDarkPrimusN1tSt4lkerNightslyrphysi_marc
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I mean, part of the problem is that it's the strongest ethos expressed of the new series. The only thing that comes close is Rose's protect rather than sacrifice, and Rogue One puts the lie to that

    I mean, it primarily shows that Rose doesn't understand what she's going on about. By FAR the greatest hero of the Disney era is Jyn Erso, and she is the literal embodiment of the heroic sacrifice.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
    italianranmaFencingsaxSolarJazzjdarksunSynthesisphysi_marc
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I think the side movies and the main trilogy kind of exist in their separate universes morally.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Except no, that's exactly wrong.

    First, Rose was specifically talking about dying to destroy what you hate, as opposed to trying to save what you care about. Finn's attempted suicide run on the miniaturized Death Star gun was unlikely to work, and even if it did, it wouldn't have gotten the surviving Resistance out of there. All it means is they would have had more time to await death as the First Order dropped more troops and materiel to blast their away in. Finn was desperate to do something, anything, to lash out at the First Order after what he'd seen over the course of the film. Rose had to point out that that's not the point. The Resistance doesn't exist to punish the First Order, but to protect the galaxy from them.

    Meanwhile, Jyn didn't die to destroy something. You can argue that ultimately they were trying to destroy the Death Star, but no--their mission was to retrieve the plans; even if they hadn't lost a single team member and got back to Yavin I doubt they would have been put in fighters. And even then, they died not to destroy the Death Star, but to protect the galaxy (and Rebellion) from it. Even the movie makes this clear: the most important thing the Rogues did was inspire hope, not destroy anything.

    None of the Rogue One mission was actually about destroying anything. I mean, Cassian and his team of wetwork operators pitched in because helping the Rebellion survive was an unambiguous good, as opposed to the morally gray or even dark actions they'd taken to that point. It also wasn't about dying to destroy anything. Indeed, the notable deaths of most of the team were largely random, not heroic at all. K2 and Chirrut are the only two who really count as heroic sacrifice. Baze died avenging Chirrut...pointlessly, it would turn out. Bodhi died from a random grenade. The one nameless trooper who volunteered to go hit the switch that Chirrut would eventually throw, stood up, and was immediately shot, needn't have gone at all. This is not to say they were stupid for doing the things or not anticipating the random events that would lead to their deaths, but heroic sacrifice, while a possibility they accepted, was a. not the mission and b. not what most of them actually achieved.

    Even Jyn's death wasn't a sacrifice; she just chose to gracefully accept a death she couldn't do anything to avoid. She might have been able to escape after completing her mission if the Empire hadn't decided to blow up the continent she was standing on.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited December 6
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I mean, part of the problem is that it's the strongest ethos expressed of the new series. The only thing that comes close is Rose's protect rather than sacrifice, and Rogue One puts the lie to that

    I mean, it primarily shows that Rose doesn't understand what she's going on about. By FAR the greatest hero of the Disney era is Jyn Erso, and she is the literal embodiment of the heroic sacrifice.

    No. And her being right is both integral both to Finns arc and to the structure of the force in a super big way (I am pretty sure I have already expressed it in the thread). The short of it is that Finn starts the movie sitting on the fence, gets off the fence because he sees what kind of people fence sitters are, and then has to be reminded by Rose that you fight for a side and not against a side.

    Edit: to expand so we don’t have to search through old posts. Rose is not saying “protect, don’t sacrifice”. She is saying “act with the correct emotional reasoning”. Which is good because the movie(s) tell us in a lot of ways that proper emotional reasoning leads to good results and this is irrespective of sacrifice.

    Logically sacrifice is only something you should do if you’re going to succeed or there is no other choice. The films don’t do final calculus and suggest “he succeeded and he died” > “he succeeded and he survived”. There is never a post-hoc reflection where the choice doesn’t matter but the outcome does. Which is good because that would be insane. Death isn’t valuable.

    The movie(s) simply tell you to trust your feelings and to not hate. It’s “reach out with your feelings” not “reach out with your utility calculus”

    Rose is simply reminding the audience and Finn.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Trust your feelings that Magical Space Jesus will descend in the next 30 seconds, at least.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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