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Debate ad Infinitum: A [Star Wars] Thread

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Posts

  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    I think the sequels were hurt by everything happening in a long weekend.
    I think every single other star wars movie has covered a longer period of time than of the sequels combined.

    Atlas in ChainsFencingsax
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Bloods End wrote: »
    I think the sequels were hurt by everything happening in a long weekend.
    I think every single other star wars movie has covered a longer period of time than of the sequels combined.

    Both Star Wars and Empire cover roughly 24 hours in real time. Its just edited in such a way its hard to tell.

    TLJ is edited in the same way but there was a casual drop of the exact amount of hours of fuel that was left; which was unfortunate. TFA was edited so that hours of downtime felt like seconds

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
    BloodySloth
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    In space no one can tell your day night cycle

    I Do Design | I PSN- Subtle_Ties | 3DS: 3840-5210-2008 (Subtle)
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Empire covers months. The trip from Hoth to Bespin isn't very well conveyed, which is something Ivan Kirshner has said himself if I'm not mistaken.

    In either case, time passes between movies, too. The ST hasn't had this. We've seen a very exciting weekend in Rey's life, up to this point.

    SteelhawkDoodmannCommander ZoomTheColonel
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Yes. The reason I'm cranky at Rey learning to be a Jedi in a day is that Yoda trained Luke over a matter of months. The Falcon limped across space on its backup hyperdrive from Hoth to Bespin.

    It doesn't matter what it looks like on the screen, space travel takes time. Jumping across the galaxy is not instantaneous.

    RchanenAtlas in Chainssee317Commander Zoom
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    From what we see in Empire, Luke spends at best 3 nights on Dagobah.

    Meets Yoda on first night.
    The Cave is the end of Day 1.
    The X-Wing is the end of Day 2.
    Luke leaves on the third day.

    Yes, we could put more time in there, but why?

  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Because it's hard to learn anything in 3 days?

    SteelhawkElvenshaeAtlas in ChainsHefflingTomantaLanlaornTheColonel
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Empire covers months. The trip from Hoth to Bespin isn't very well conveyed, which is something Ivan Kirshner has said himself if I'm not mistaken.

    In either case, time passes between movies, too. The ST hasn't had this. We've seen a very exciting weekend in Rey's life, up to this point.

    There is just as much indication of time passing between ANH and Empire as there is between TFA and TLJ and space travel has never taken “time” in star wars. The same inconsistencies arise in ESB if you assume it does in TLJ

    Luke flies to dagobah and then to cloud city. He crosses the galaxy twice and gets back before his friends get to one place which is relatively close? And he spends months there? Goose feet.

    Not only is it not conveyed in the film but its also not conveyed in an analysis either.

    wbBv3fj.png
    The_Infidel
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Because it's hard to learn anything in 3 days?
    The force doesnt work like that. It isnt a skill you can train. Its literally the power of good vibrations and plot. You dont need to learn to control it you learn that you do not.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Because it's hard to learn anything in 3 days?
    The force doesnt work like that. It isnt a skill you can train. Its literally the power of good vibrations and plot. You dont need to learn to control it you learn that you do not.

    That is stupid and counter to literally everything about star wars.
    Yoda literally screams you need to learn control

    ObiFettFencingsaxElvenshaeRchanenAtlas in ChainsitalianranmaGONG-00ThisHefflingLanlaornTheColonel
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Because it's hard to learn anything in 3 days?
    The force doesnt work like that. It isnt a skill you can train. Its literally the power of good vibrations and plot. You dont need to learn to control it you learn that you do not.

    We had three movies full of scenes of background characters learning to harness the Force throughout their childhood and entering into apprenticeships in their teens and early adulthood.

    Luke may have had focused instruction from (arguably) the best teacher in the galaxy. It didn't take three days to get the level of skill that he managed. It took weeks, at least.

    If a viewer thinks it took only 3 days because there are three different scenes, maybe they are watching the movie with too much of a literal mind.

    Atlas in Chains
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Because it's hard to learn anything in 3 days?
    The force doesnt work like that. It isnt a skill you can train. Its literally the power of good vibrations and plot. You dont need to learn to control it you learn that you do not.

    That is stupid and counter to literally everything about star wars.
    Yoda literally screams you need to learn control

    Its basically explicit text in the old and new movies

    Youre also misinterpreting that scene. Yoda wants Luke to control his emotions. He is distracted by the pain of his friends and yoda wants him to shut it out. And well yoda was wrong in this instance. Which is why Luke succeeds in turning Vader

    But otherwise yes. “You fail because you think the force is a skill. That things can be too big or more or less difficult to move”. “Reach out with your feelings”. Training is about confronting what you could become (the cave) and not about a technical mastery of the material.

    Another example. After facing Vader the first time Luke goes back to Yoda to get more training and Yoda says “you dont need anymore your training is complete” without giving him anymore training and its not because Luke got a bunch of instruction into how to use the force, or because one lightsaber duel where the other guy is toying with you contains thousands of hours of practice worth of skill. Its because Luke did not fall to adversity and become the villain and that was the only test that mattered.

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
    Shadowen
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Because it's hard to learn anything in 3 days?
    The force doesnt work like that. It isnt a skill you can train. Its literally the power of good vibrations and plot. You dont need to learn to control it you learn that you do not.

    We had three movies full of scenes of background characters learning to harness the Force throughout their childhood and entering into apprenticeships in their teens and early adulthood.

    Luke may have had focused instruction from (arguably) the best teacher in the galaxy. It didn't take three days to get the level of skill that he managed. It took weeks, at least.

    If a viewer thinks it took only 3 days because there are three different scenes, maybe they are watching the movie with too much of a literal mind.

    The literal mind thinks that the old Jedi Order is teaching mastery of a skill. They are not. They want young students because they think that making robots without emotional ties is less likely to produce villains.

    And then they get swept aside by a whole three people. Clearly they are the most best authority on how to train jedi.

    The Prequels are not subtle in their criticism of the order and its lack of emotion. It is indeed why they fail.

    If you want an authorial understanding then consider Lucases influences in the 60s and 70s. Hippies and film language which then produce a modern fairy tale

    wbBv3fj.png
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Empire covers months. The trip from Hoth to Bespin isn't very well conveyed, which is something Ivan Kirshner has said himself if I'm not mistaken.

    In either case, time passes between movies, too. The ST hasn't had this. We've seen a very exciting weekend in Rey's life, up to this point.

    There is just as much indication of time passing between ANH and Empire as there is between TFA and TLJ and space travel has never taken “time” in star wars. The same inconsistencies arise in ESB if you assume it does in TLJ

    Luke flies to dagobah and then to cloud city. He crosses the galaxy twice and gets back before his friends get to one place which is relatively close? And he spends months there? Goose feet.

    Not only is it not conveyed in the film but its also not conveyed in an analysis either.

    I think there is way more indication of time between 4 and 5 than 7 and 8

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    Atlas in Chains
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Had to have been at least a few months. Rey and chewie get all the way out into the unknown regions ;p

    Edit: for real though ending TFA with. Rey finding Luke was a mistake. Even if this is supposed to take no time the assumtion of the transport happening off screen would make it feel like it was a longer time. The indeterminate-ness of it lets your imagination fill in whatever value for the trip makes most sense for you. This is also what the traveling conversations do in ANH and ESB. Even though time isnt passing it feels like it because the stature of the characters makes it seem like it is

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
    see317
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    The OT is hard to pin down, time wise, just by watching. I think ANH takes place over the course of about a week, but it could be as low as 2 days. We don't know how long it was between ANH and ESB, but one could assume that scouring the galaxy with probes is not quick. I'm pretty sure it's canon that it took 6 months for the Falcon to limp to Bespin. No, it's not shown at all. Then Han spends about a year frozen. Again, nothing in the films indicates this. It's just left up to you to guess. But the intention was that time passed.

    The ST is not hard to figure. Finn goes on a night raid for the map, then he's AWOL by morning. He's picked up by Han before lunch. There is some fuzzy time here, can't really say how long it takes to get to Maz. Another day to blow up Starkiller, then under 18 hours for TLJ.

    Commander Zoom
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    The longer it takes between ESB and ROTJ, it makes it more odd that Luke waits and waits to go back to Dagobah.

    Or maybe that fits real well with a Luke who would run off to Ach-To and cut himself off from the Force.

    Rchanen
  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Empire covers months. The trip from Hoth to Bespin isn't very well conveyed, which is something Ivan Kirshner has said himself if I'm not mistaken.

    In either case, time passes between movies, too. The ST hasn't had this. We've seen a very exciting weekend in Rey's life, up to this point.

    There is just as much indication of time passing between ANH and Empire as there is between TFA and TLJ and space travel has never taken “time” in star wars. The same inconsistencies arise in ESB if you assume it does in TLJ

    Luke flies to dagobah and then to cloud city. He crosses the galaxy twice and gets back before his friends get to one place which is relatively close? And he spends months there? Goose feet.

    Not only is it not conveyed in the film but its also not conveyed in an analysis either.

    I think there is way more indication of time between 4 and 5 than 7 and 8

    Opening crawl of ESB says they had enough time to build an entirely new base on Hoth after destroying the Death Star. At the end of TFA, the First Order already knows the location of the rebel base because they tracked their scout ship back. So TLJ likely starts however long it took for the First Order to muster their fleet to attack. Since there's apparently no travel time in the new series, that could be a short time indeed. Regardless, the time between 7 & 8 is limited to the duration Rey was on the island, which could have been as short as a few days.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
    Fencingsax
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    The time discrepancy between the two main plots in the middle of ESB struck me as the Falcon didn't take all that long to limp to Bespin - a couple of days, maybe? - but that the time the gang spent in Vader's clutches, imprisoned and being tortured, was longer. This accounts for Luke's time on Dagobah being noticeably longer than the Falcon's trip time, and the cuts between the two plotlines aren't necessarily chronological relative to each other, only rejoining chronology when Luke gets to Bespin. Vader's using the gang as bait for Luke, obviously, so he knows exactly how long to keep them there...

    I could be completely wrong about this, of course. It's just one idea that occurred to me a while back that I haven't seen repeated much, if ever.

  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Finally going through all of rebels
    A-Wings and their pilots are amazingly bad at staying alive

    Y-Wings get the job done.



    I had totally forgotten a Y-Wing got a terrain kill on a goddamn TIE Defender.

    Great. Now I have to watch the end battle of Rogue One again.

    Welp, might as well watch the whole thing.

    JazzFencingsaxRchanenElvenshaeHefflingFoolOnTheHill
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Finally going through all of rebels
    A-Wings and their pilots are amazingly bad at staying alive

    Y-Wings get the job done.



    I had totally forgotten a Y-Wing got a terrain kill on a goddamn TIE Defender.

    Great. Now I have to watch the end battle of Rogue One again.

    Welp, might as well watch the whole thing.

    Not that much of a sacrifice, is it :)

    Rchanen
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Nah, I'm pretty sure TLJ was the antithesis of absurd convoluted EU level unnecessary backstory for everything.

    Jokes on them, merchandising is a more powerful force than silly things like artistic integrity.

  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    Nah, I'm pretty sure TLJ was the antithesis of absurd convoluted EU level unnecessary backstory for everything.

    Jokes on them, merchandising is a more powerful force than silly things like artistic integrity.

    rhxhdavqso7f.jpg

    The kids love this one.

    Commander ZoomitalianranmamanwiththemachinegunElvenshaeNightslyrAbsoluteZeroKruiteHeffling
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm still salty that they reset the universe for the sequel trilogy, instead of making the trilogy about the difficulties of rebuilding a galactic republic after decades of war.

    Um, getting the capital blown up by neo-fascists seems to be exactly about “the difficulties of rebuilding a galactic republic after decades of war.”

    That completely annihilated the Republic, removing it from the narrative, resetting the universe to the state of "plucky fighters led by Leia and Luke are the last hope for the galaxy."

    Yeah. It felt like a attempted reboot but no real leg work was done to earn the set up.

    Yeah, I feel like the whole thing was a big reset so they wouldn't have to change the core of what Star Wars was in the OT. Set up a new war very much like the last one and now you can do all the same kind of stories. It feels a little too slavishly devoted to the originals but not in an interesting way.

    I like what they did with the original characters given that constraint though. It hurts but it's also an interesting choice that gives the new trilogy something to do with them.

    Commander ZoomFencingsaxElvenshaeNightslyrkimeLanlaorn
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    When we talk about the same conflict in Star Wars are we talking about the sequel trilogy or KOTOR?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    When we talk about the same conflict in Star Wars are we talking about the sequel trilogy or KOTOR?

    Yes.

    RchanenElvenshaeNightslyr
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    KOTOR:II did deconstruction better than TLJ.

    Yes it was RPG length, but it was also a more interesting set up and execution.

    RchanenCaedwyrMild ConfusionLanlaorn
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    Nah, I'm pretty sure TLJ was the antithesis of absurd convoluted EU level unnecessary backstory for everything.

    Jokes on them, merchandising is a more powerful force than silly things like artistic integrity.

    rhxhdavqso7f.jpg

    The kids love this one.

    Tbf... I also want that one to, uh, show my fandom

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    shrykeJazzElvenshaeNightslyr
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    KOTOR:II did deconstruction better than TLJ.

    Yes it was RPG length, but it was also a more interesting set up and execution.


    KOTOR II is overrated. The first one is better.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm still salty that they reset the universe for the sequel trilogy, instead of making the trilogy about the difficulties of rebuilding a galactic republic after decades of war.

    Um, getting the capital blown up by neo-fascists seems to be exactly about “the difficulties of rebuilding a galactic republic after decades of war.”

    That completely annihilated the Republic, removing it from the narrative, resetting the universe to the state of "plucky fighters led by Leia and Luke are the last hope for the galaxy."

    Yeah. It felt like a attempted reboot but no real leg work was done to earn the set up.

    Yeah, I feel like the whole thing was a big reset so they wouldn't have to change the core of what Star Wars was in the OT. Set up a new war very much like the last one and now you can do all the same kind of stories. It feels a little too slavishly devoted to the originals but not in an interesting way.

    I like what they did with the original characters given that constraint though. It hurts but it's also an interesting choice that gives the new trilogy something to do with them.

    Luke made TLJ for me. The rest of the movie is flawed, but that Luke was exactly what I wanted.

    PSN/XBL/Nintendo/Origin/Steam: Nightslyr 3DS: 1607-1682-2948
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 13
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    Jephery wrote: »
    I'm still salty that they reset the universe for the sequel trilogy, instead of making the trilogy about the difficulties of rebuilding a galactic republic after decades of war.

    Um, getting the capital blown up by neo-fascists seems to be exactly about “the difficulties of rebuilding a galactic republic after decades of war.”

    That completely annihilated the Republic, removing it from the narrative, resetting the universe to the state of "plucky fighters led by Leia and Luke are the last hope for the galaxy."

    Yeah. It felt like a attempted reboot but no real leg work was done to earn the set up.

    Yeah, I feel like the whole thing was a big reset so they wouldn't have to change the core of what Star Wars was in the OT. Set up a new war very much like the last one and now you can do all the same kind of stories. It feels a little too slavishly devoted to the originals but not in an interesting way.

    I like what they did with the original characters given that constraint though. It hurts but it's also an interesting choice that gives the new trilogy something to do with them.

    Luke made TLJ for me. The rest of the movie is flawed, but that Luke was exactly what I wanted.

    The problem with TLJ is absolutely not the actors, and some were given a great part. Luke was absolutely one of them.

    Fencingsax on
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    RchanenitalianranmaNightslyrTheColonel
  • CristovalCristoval Registered User regular
    Been going back and fourth but I'm more than confident in casting my chips in the "The Last Jedi was awesome" camp.

    After re-watching the complete fan-service that was Force Awakens (still fun!) I'm glad TLJ is the movie we got. I'll take that version of Luke over anything that could have been. And Kylo and Rey are MVP and I want them to kiss and rule the Galaxy.

    [Expletive deleted]davidsdurionsElvenshaeDark Raven XDoctor DetroitThe_InfidelkimeNightslyrDiplominator
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    Time passes at a different rate on Ach Too so Rey was actually training for years or something. Might be a good place to stop worrying about realistic physics in the space wizards vs space nazis movies?

    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    That could be fun to just like disregard all sensible human reality, like every character is Billy Pilgriming through a universe where up is mustard and gravity is hot and nourishing

    Fencingsax
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Time passes at a different rate on Ach Too so Rey was actually training for years or something. Might be a good place to stop worrying about realistic physics in the space wizards vs space nazis movies?
    On “realistic” conceptions of what training is for a space wizard

    wbBv3fj.png
    AbsoluteZero
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    Time passes at a different rate on Ach Too so Rey was actually training for years or something. Might be a good place to stop worrying about realistic physics in the space wizards vs space nazis movies?

    No offense to you personally, but I hate seeing this argument come up all the time. Yes there is space magic, and space ships banking, and space English, and all sorts of other unrealistic provisions made for the sake of making a fun space opera movie. That's not carte blanche for the writers to throw out any and all realism or internal consistency. That being said I didn't really have a problem with the timeline in TLJ aside from the fact that I can't quite figure out if the First Order arrives within a few hours of Starkiller base exploding or a few days/weeks/etc. It's not a big deal, but I think it ties into a larger problem of scope throughout the sequel trilogy (so far).

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Time passes at a different rate on Ach Too so Rey was actually training for years or something. Might be a good place to stop worrying about realistic physics in the space wizards vs space nazis movies?

    No offense to you personally, but I hate seeing this argument come up all the time. Yes there is space magic, and space ships banking, and space English, and all sorts of other unrealistic provisions made for the sake of making a fun space opera movie. That's not carte blanche for the writers to throw out any and all realism or internal consistency. That being said I didn't really have a problem with the timeline in TLJ aside from the fact that I can't quite figure out if the First Order arrives within a few hours of Starkiller base exploding or a few days/weeks/etc. It's not a big deal, but I think it ties into a larger problem of scope throughout the sequel trilogy (so far).

    ESB has the same issue. Neither movie has a time scale that really feels longer then a day or two based on what we see on film, except maybe it also should cause training montage and it's all just whatever and we all move on.

    I actually think TFA's seemingly instant travel to everywhere timescale feels more jarring.

    [Expletive deleted]ShadowenElvenshaeNightslyrJazzhonovere
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Time passes at a different rate on Ach Too so Rey was actually training for years or something. Might be a good place to stop worrying about realistic physics in the space wizards vs space nazis movies?

    No offense to you personally, but I hate seeing this argument come up all the time. Yes there is space magic, and space ships banking, and space English, and all sorts of other unrealistic provisions made for the sake of making a fun space opera movie. That's not carte blanche for the writers to throw out any and all realism or internal consistency. That being said I didn't really have a problem with the timeline in TLJ aside from the fact that I can't quite figure out if the First Order arrives within a few hours of Starkiller base exploding or a few days/weeks/etc. It's not a big deal, but I think it ties into a larger problem of scope throughout the sequel trilogy (so far).

    ESB has the same issue. Neither movie has a time scale that really feels longer then a day or two based on what we see on film, except maybe it also should cause training montage and it's all just whatever and we all move on.

    I actually think TFA's seemingly instant travel to everywhere timescale feels more jarring.

    For that, I think you can blame Abrams and his utter disregard for distance whenever it gets in the way of of what he wants to happen or see. (I certainly do.)

    FencingsaxSteelhawkShadowenkimeElvenshaeNightslyrJazzCaedwyrKetarhonovere
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Cristoval wrote: »
    Been going back and fourth but I'm more than confident in casting my chips in the "The Last Jedi was awesome" camp.

    After re-watching the complete fan-service that was Force Awakens (still fun!) I'm glad TLJ is the movie we got. I'll take that version of Luke over anything that could have been. And Kylo and Rey are MVP and I want them to kiss and rule the Galaxy.

    The interesting thing to me is that both TFA and TLJ are love-letters to the OT but in completely different ways. Abrams shows his love via a ridiculous to the point of occasionally being counter-productive devotion to recreating bits from the OT. TFA is a film that's trying to be like a mirror of ANH, showing you the same thing again in the new setting. Johnson has allusions to elements of ESB and ROTJ but he mixes them up and often goes off on his own tangents. The love for the OT is really in the themes and ideas of the movie itself right up to the very last scene which is basically as direct a love-letter to the very brand being used as I've ever seen on film.

    OrcaSteelhawk[Expletive deleted]Doctor DetroitShadowenpablo_pricekimeElvenshaeNightslyrJazz
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    I read a line that said the sequels are very much movies about star wars rather than star wars movies, which feels very right to me

    Atlas in ChainsitalianranmaNightslyrDoodmannBloodySloth
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