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[DnD 5E] No! Sleep! Till quests end!

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Posts

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    I don't know but I'd guess instead of using a static number that grows with character level you use a die that grows with character lvl (coinflip, d4, d6, d8, etc...) but averages to what the static one would have been. It's an extra die to roll each time and introduces more randomness into anything affected by proficiency.

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  • NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Sleep wrote: »
    4d6, reroll 1s once, roll two arrays. If you're still sitting on an array with a combined bonus less than 9 after racial bonuses factor in and you can repeat the whole process.

    I also use rolled proficiency which changes the game considerably.

    Roll 2d4 and add 8d13 then subtract your birthday, then travel to those coordinates. You'll meet a woman wearing a red hat reading last month's Vogue. She's your contact. Count the diamonds in her brooch. She'll give you a matchbook.The four digit address is your first two stats, the last four of the phone number minus the number of diamonds in her brooch (you did count, didn't you?) are the next two. Convert the name of the bar on the matchbook into numerals using the onetime pad the Russian gave you, but remember to first convert the letters in ROT13. Those are the last two stats.

    Or just use point buy or a standard array for Christ's sake.

    Reroll if the moon is in Saturn.

    Narbus on
    ElvenshaeAldoRhesus PositiveTerrendosDarkPrimusMahnmutMrVyngaardJustTeeTynnan
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    4d6, reroll 1s once, roll two arrays. If you're still sitting on an array with a combined bonus less than 9 after racial bonuses factor in and you can repeat the whole process.

    I also use rolled proficiency which changes the game considerably.

    How do you do rolled proficiency?

    It's a mod in the back of the DMG

    Take the proficiency bonus multiply by 2 thats the die to use.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

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    JustTee
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

    It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

    It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.

    No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.

    steam_sig.png
    JustTee
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

    It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.

    No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.

    1 probabilities don't actually work like that

    2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.

    I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.

    Sleep on
  • GlaziusGlazius Registered User regular
    I think there need to be a rule that if you dont get a Point Buy Equivalent of X, you get to reroll.

    I'm probably putting to much though in this and should just enjoy the game. But still.

    Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.

    Sleep
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    Glazius wrote: »
    I think there need to be a rule that if you dont get a Point Buy Equivalent of X, you get to reroll.

    I'm probably putting to much though in this and should just enjoy the game. But still.

    Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.

    Huh?

    discrider
  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    I find people just really dislike the 8.
    The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
    If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    SmrtnikIvellius
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    I know I've said it before because point buy vs rolled stats is one of the thread's default conversation topics, but I always love hearing all the elaborate rolling methods people use to protect themselves from the actual dice.

    The greatest evidence that most people don't actually like rolled stats is that most of the people who do like rolled stats only like rolling in a way that games the probabilities involved enough that the 'rolls' can only produce arrays that are better than what you get through point buy.

    It always feels like some sort of cargo cult thing - announcing your 40-point-buy-equivalent array with a starting 20 primary is munchkiny powergaming unless you have completed the ritual rolling of the dice first. The shape of the act of rolling the dice gives the stats legitimacy, even if the dice themselves are entirely rigged and basically disconnected from the actual outcome.

    A campaign I played in years ago, the other players scoffed at the idea of point buy as being for munchkin casuals who couldn't handle playing flawed characters and weren't real enough DnD players to deal with the randomness of rolled stats

    and then told me that their house rule for rolling stats was 5d6, reroll 1s, drop the two lowest, roll 7 stats and drop the lowest again.

    SmrtnikMoridin889AldoZonugalwebguy20AnialosElvenshaenever dieMrVyngaardJustTeeIvelliusTynnan
  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! Registered User regular
    At this point I have to ask if you were sure you were playing an RPG, and not some kind of proto-Yahtzee Legacy.

    GNU Terry Pratchett
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    ElvenshaeMrVyngaard
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    I find people just really dislike the 8.
    The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
    If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.

    I was not expecting this personal of an attack on this Sunday morning :P

    Elvenshae
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    My players like rolling dice, i just played with it till they would result in characters that generally at least meet if not exceed the standard array.

    Some of my players were surprised we were doing anything beyond straight down the array 3d6.

    Sleep on
  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    I find people just really dislike the 8.
    The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
    If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.

    I personally love the 8 in the standard array!

    I love my character having a definite flaw or deficiency in something.

    2mw6ukw.jpg
    webguy20NipsMahnmutJustTeeIvelliusTynnan
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Abbalah wrote: »
    and then told me that their house rule for rolling stats was 5d6, reroll 1s, drop the two lowest, roll 7 stats and drop the lowest again.

    As a proponent of dice rolling for stats... that method is a giant pile of munchkin-y bullshit.

    Steelhawk on
    destroyah87ElvenshaeJustTee
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    evilthecat wrote: »
    I find people just really dislike the 8.
    The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
    If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.

    I personally love the 8 in the standard array!

    I love my character having a definite flaw or deficiency in something.

    I agree. Since everyone is probably playing with a different Primary stat, everyone having a bad stat allows the other people to shine in that skill.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    ZonugalNipsJustTee
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

    It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.

    No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.

    1 probabilities don't actually work like that

    2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.

    I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.

    Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)

    Re rolling stats:

    There is only one correct way.

    Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.

    wbBv3fj.png
    webguy20Elvenshae
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

    It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.

    No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.

    1 probabilities don't actually work like that

    2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.

    I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.

    Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)

    Re rolling stats:

    There is only one correct way.

    Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.

    Hahaha I might do this for my westmarches game I run.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Most of my DMing is done in Adventurers League at my FLGS so point-buy is mandated (rightfully), and my current two home games were with complete beginners so for simplicity sake I went with point-buy, but... I really prefer rolling, mostly due to seeing the same race/class combos time after time. Your gnome-fighters or your half-orc wizards just aren't viable in point-buy, but rolling for stats can give you that freedom.

    I like the usual 4d6 drop one, but I am a just god and allow an optional reroll if there isn't at least one 15 or above or if the total of all stats is under 60 (e.g. worse than a commoner), I also don't allow a score of 19 or 20 at level 1. If you roll an 18, you can put it somewhere you don't get a racial bonus, or ignore the bonus.

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
    ArcanisTheImpotent
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Ever since I ran it purely as a one-off experiment, I've been a huge fan of "18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8; no stat bumps from race or class"

    Especially in something like 4e where you have a lot of super niche feats, shit gets weird in some of the best ways.

    Tox on
    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
    webguy20
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Ok yeah so an extra die to roll

    It's almost like we're playing a dice game or something.

    No no, it's totes cool to have a lvl 20 character be equal or worse at just about anything they do than a lvl 1 character one out of 6 times.

    1 probabilities don't actually work like that

    2 Thankfully because you're also rolling a d20 it doesn't really present itself super concretely or frequently. It actually bell curves performance pretty well for DCs that shouldn't really move too much, and for those with expertise it results in far better than usual performance.

    I find that, if anything it boosts overall performance throughout the game.

    Variance of sums does not bell curve. It explodes. Average effect will be slightly better since E(dice) will be +.5 over E(Proficiency)

    Re rolling stats:

    There is only one correct way.

    Roll 4d6 drop one, in order, after doing all other character creation.

    Yeah i was pretty sure bell curve was the wrong description of its distribution i just know that 1 out of 6 times thing was super duper wrong.

  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    What does munchkin-y mean?

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.

    Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?

    Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.

    Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?

    Smrtnik on
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    JustTee
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    What does munchkin-y mean?

    power gamer beyond a standard min/maxer. Looks to exploit loopholes and edge cases in the rules to increase their overall power in game.

    webguy20 on
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    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    ZonugalMrVyngaardJustTee
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    What does munchkin-y mean?

    power gamer beyond a standard min/maxer. Looks to exploit loopholes and edge cases in the rules to increase their overall power in game.

    The tvtropes definition is pretty accurate.

    steam_sig.png
    ElvenshaeMrVyngaardJustTeeSleep
  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    I think the balance I always struck as a D&D optimizer during the 3.5E days was if I was going to go all out & build a powerful character I had to lock it away behind a really niche focus.

    So instead of building a super powerful wizard, I'd build a super powerful ice-mage.

    I felt that was an appropriate concession.

    2mw6ukw.jpg
    Sleep
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    I think the balance I always struck as a D&D optimizer during the 3.5E days was if I was going to go all out & build a powerful character I had to lock it away behind a really niche focus.

    So instead of building a super powerful wizard, I'd build a super powerful ice-mage.

    I felt that was an appropriate concession.

    Yea, I always have tried to min/max into one area. I've never tried to be god king of everything. Like Amazing melee, or charisma man in my current game.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    Sleep
  • KhildithKhildith Registered User regular
    In the SKT game I'm DMing I told the players they could all roll and if they really hated their stats take the point buy or the normal array. One of the players ended up with an insane array (17/16/16/15/12/11 iirc, rolled via Roll20 so everyone could see it was legit) but the rest basically took the normal array.

    After 8 or so sessions some people felt like they were noticeably weaker (they were) and were dissatisfied with the way they felt like sidekicks and I just declared that everyone should switch to the insane array. Its actually worked out pretty well, the party is clearly heroic and high-powered but it feels pretty natural due to the nature of SKT.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Ever since I ran it purely as a one-off experiment, I've been a huge fan of "18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 18; no stat bumps from race or class"

    Especially in something like 4e where you have a lot of super niche feats, shit gets weird in some of the best ways.

    Do you mean "level" because otherwise many races will noticeably weaker. Getting rid of level up stats seems more reasonable than getting rid of racial stats

    wbBv3fj.png
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    Dnd is fun. Keep little mirrors as part of a shaving kit to reflect against medusas.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
    Shawnasee
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Ever since I ran it purely as a one-off experiment, I've been a huge fan of "18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8; no stat bumps from race or class"

    Especially in something like 4e where you have a lot of super niche feats, shit gets weird in some of the best ways.

    Do you mean "level" because otherwise many races will noticeably weaker. Getting rid of level up stats seems more reasonable than getting rid of racial stats

    No, I meant race or class. So if you want to play an Elf Fighter with 18 Str/16 Con/ 8 Int, you can.

    Or, to use an actual example from the group, a Gnome Thief (4e essentials) with 18 Str. Funny thing about all the Thief stuff in 4e. It says you may use Dex instead of Str, not that you must.

    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
    Elvenshae
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    Just in case anyone was curious, I check and both of my friends present and backup players have at least an 18 and a 17 and not one stat under 10.

    Hmmmmm...

    Elvenshae
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.

    Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?

    Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.

    Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?

    While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.

    Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.

    *
    essentially look at their main attack and get the difference between its attack ability bonus and the attack bonus. Saves and skill bonuses help this too. If its dex save is 5 and its dex is 16 it has a +2 proficiency bonus

  • GlaziusGlazius Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Glazius wrote: »
    I think there need to be a rule that if you dont get a Point Buy Equivalent of X, you get to reroll.

    I'm probably putting to much though in this and should just enjoy the game. But still.

    Roll to split 25. 4d6 3 times, and subtract each of those from 25 to get your other 3 scores. That's more or less standard point buy there, and even in the most freakishly average case you've still got a +1 to everything.

    Huh?

    Geth, roll 3#4d6k3 for example

    13, 14, 7.

    25 - 13 = 12.
    25 - 14 = 11.
    25 - 7 = 18.

    18, 14, 13, 12, 11, 7.

    Every good roll means you also have a bad roll, and you have three evens and three odds.

    example:
    3#4d6k3 3 # 14 [4d6k3=[6, 4, 4], 2] 7 [4d6k3=[3, 2, 2], 1] 13 [4d6k3=[6, 4, 3], 1]

    Glazius on
    SleepElvenshaeJPants
  • never dienever die Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.

    Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?

    Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.

    Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?

    While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.

    Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.

    *
    essentially look at their main attack and get the difference between its attack ability bonus and the attack bonus. Saves and skill bonuses help this too. If its dex save is 5 and its dex is 16 it has a +2 proficiency bonus

    Also, and I don't know how consistent the Monster Manual is for this, in the DMG its essentially CR is the same as character levels for determining proficiency bonus.

    So:

    CR 0-4: +2
    CR 5-8: +3
    CR 9-12: +4
    CR 13-16: +5
    CR 17-20: +6
    CR 21-24: +7
    CR 25-28: +8
    CR 29-30: +9

    Which, other than CR going higher than character levels, matches up to the character level chart.

    SleepZonugalJustTee
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    never die wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Under the regular rules the lvl 1 bonus is +2 and the lvl 20 is +6. Under the new rules the lvl 20 bonus is 1d12. 1d12 is going to be a 1 (worse than a 2) 1/12 times. 1d12 is going to be a 2 (equal to a 2) 1/12 times. 1/12 + 1/12 = 1/6, which is exactly what i said.

    Under the new rules, the lvl 1 is using a d4, so 1/4 worse, 1/4 equal, 1/2 better. For the lvl 20 it's 5/12 worse, 1/12 equal, 6/12 better. In all levels, therefore, on average the rolled proficiency gives a "better" result (character hits more often, make skill checks more often, proficient saves more often). But the high level characters also sometimes perform worse than a low level one. A d20 is supposed to account for randomness of any given situation. Rolled proficiency sometimes means the lvl 20 brewer, what, had a brain fart, forgot 19 levels of experience and training, and made shitty beer because of that?

    Furthermore though they both benefit (on average) from the rolled proficiency, the lvl one benefits much more.

    Lastly, the published monsters don't list generic proficiency iirc, just the final to hit (by attack type) and proficient skills and saves if applicable. Does the DM then attenpt to derive what the static proficiency would have been (from CR??) and convert to rolled instead? Or not bother, making the player characters that much more powerful than everyone else (on average)?

    While deriving proficiency is pretty easy*, i don't do rolled for NPC or monsters just for brevity of play reasons.

    Like I said, the issue you're predicting doesn't present itself super concretely in gameplay. I've been using the mod for years at this point and while the issue you're describing, where you can accidentally end up only getting a +1 from your proficiency, is totally a possibility, it doesn't really matter frequently enough because the d20 obfuscates the deficit by being enough to carry the player to victory on its own and more often than not a high roll on the proficiency die will rescue a garbage d20 roll.

    *
    essentially look at their main attack and get the difference between its attack ability bonus and the attack bonus. Saves and skill bonuses help this too. If its dex save is 5 and its dex is 16 it has a +2 proficiency bonus

    Also, and I don't know how consistent the Monster Manual is for this, in the DMG its essentially CR is the same as character levels for determining proficiency bonus.

    So:

    CR 0-4: +2
    CR 5-8: +3
    CR 9-12: +4
    CR 13-16: +5
    CR 17-20: +6
    CR 21-24: +7
    CR 25-28: +8
    CR 29-30: +9

    Which, other than CR going higher than character levels, matches up to the character level chart.

    You can mess with this a little in the building of monsters to push their final cr higher than their proficiency would generally indicate but you almost have to aim for it by giving it a really over the top ability score to its main attack stat.

    never die
  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    since people started throwing shade around i also like to point out my game also had to roll their stats in order, and they only got their classes after the first session, and it was determined by their actions in that prologue

    so yeah, no, “just use point buy” isn’t relevant to me. i wanted some old school randomness in there, but i wanted to smooth out the probabilities a little bit, because I needed the characters to potentially perform in a wide variety of classes since we had no idea how these characters would come out before the end of session 0.5

    ArcanisTheImpotent on
  • NyhtNyht Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Yeah I've read a lot of pretty condescending remarks about people's rolling methods and I'm not sure I get why exactly that those things bother people enough to pick at them.

    People do whatever feels right or is fun for their table, you know? It's a group of friends (or co-workers or whatever) getting together to have a good time. Why does it matter to other people how they get their stats?

    "But they claim it's rolling to be random but there are so many failsafes, it's not REALLY random!"

    Eh, it's still random but it's a pretty "safe" random, admittedly. And I get why people do it. A lot of people like the feeling of winning at something or just feeling powerful. There's something satisfying in rolling for stats still for a lot of people (guilty) but also not wanting to still be weak in a game about heroic fantasy (also probably guilty but I don't get to be a player usually).

    I've played anywhere from standard array to 4d6 drop the lowest, to just saying 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 or 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. In general, I've found my group likes the stronger characters but even having the stats higher on the paper, it doesn't really change the game at all. As the DM I can easily just make small adjustments on my end. Often times I'll give monsters more HP or max hp instead of whats recommended but they players don't care and are having a blast.

    I just don't know if some of you people realize how condescending you sound when you pick at how other people "roll their characters". It's very borderline the "you're having your fun wrong" situation.

    Nyht on
    SleepSteelhawkdavidsdurionsDaenrisSchadenfreudeJusticeforPluto
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    What does munchkin-y mean?

    power gamer beyond a standard min/maxer. Looks to exploit loopholes and edge cases in the rules to increase their overall power in game.
    webguy20 wrote: »
    What does munchkin-y mean?

    power gamer beyond a standard min/maxer. Looks to exploit loopholes and edge cases in the rules to increase their overall power in game.
    evilthecat wrote: »
    I find people just really dislike the 8.
    The standard array is already a superior human, but then players see that 8 and they're like "but I'll be subaverage at something!".
    If you're truely the sort of power gaming munchkin that can't bear to have a flaw anywhere (some people consider that roleplaying but EH) then just ask your DM nicely if you can upgrade the 8 to a 10 and that other 10 to an 11.

    Flaws are fun, one of the most fun and shortest lived characters I ever had had 7 dexterity

    davidsdurions
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