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[DnD 5E] You can't triple stamp a double stamp!

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Posts

  • KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Nealneal wrote: »
    Because when you cast the spell, you weren't visible. When you release the spell as a reaction to "stepping out of cover" there is nothing for the opposing spellcaster to counter, the spell has been cast. It does cost both your action, move, and reaction though so it's pretty rough on an already tight action economy.

    That's such ruleslawyer-y bullshit that I'd never personally allow.

    You do everything but pronounce the last syllable and release the magic flavour-wise, sure. But then the spell is cast and I can damn well counterspell your possible cantrip blindly, thanks.

    Tell you what, I'll even provoke an opportunity attack on my turn, and use my reaction on my turn to cast Shield. Because you can do that!

    Kay on
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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I weirdly feel guilty for not using the lich to his fullest potential...

    I feel like this all the time. Every time one of my cool bosses gets curbstomped by my players a feel terrible. Not just that "I got beat up" but that my choice of challenge was correct, but I just went easy on them, or played poorly or whatever.

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    I
    Kay wrote: »
    Nealneal wrote: »
    Because when you cast the spell, you weren't visible. When you release the spell as a reaction to "stepping out of cover" there is nothing for the opposing spellcaster to counter, the spell has been cast. It does cost both your action, move, and reaction though so it's pretty rough on an already tight action economy.

    That's such ruleslawyer-y bullshit that I'd never personally allow.

    You do everything but pronounce the last syllable and release the magic flavour-wise, sure. But then the spell is cast and I can damn well counterspell your possible centripetal blindly, thanks.

    Tell you what, I'll even provoke an opportunity attack on my turn, and use my reaction on my turn to cast Shield. Because you can do that!

    I'm with you, but you asked how it worked and that's how what Override367 was describing works.

  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    Kay wrote: »
    Keep in mind you can have an enemy spellcaster walk behind cover, hold an action to cast a spell, and then walk back out of cover and release the spell and it cannot be counterspelled.

    Why does it work this way? I don't get why holding an action makes the spell uncounterable.

    Because when you cast the spell, you weren't visible. When you release the spell as a reaction to "stepping out of cover" there is nothing for the opposing spellcaster to counter, the spell has been cast. It does cost both your action, move, and reaction though so it's pretty rough on an already tight action economy.

    I suppose the question then becomes whether you can step out of cover. RAW says no.
    You cannot use your reaction to do something AND move; it's either or.
    If you've spent your ready action to cast the spell, and you're completely behind cover to avoid the counterspell then you cannot move out of cover to release.
    The spell is lost as soon as your next turn begins, so you cannot move here to trigger.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    Anialos
  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    But, and I'm definitely leaning towards the "That's bullshit" camp, but you can use your reaction on your own turn (Counterspelling a counterspell being the classic example).

    So you ready your spell (action) behind cover with trigger being "When I step out of cover", step out of cover (move), trigger the spell (reaction), then probably finish your movement to get back in cover. From a Rules Lawyer point of view its pretty solid.

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    You can split your movement over your turn though.

    Move behind cover.
    Cast Spell. Readying it to cast on the trigger of stepping out of cover.
    Step out of cover.
    Reaction is triggered, completing spell.

    Nealneal on
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    It's counterspell it is doing what it is supposed to do. You can cast a spell while out of sight to circumvent the counterspell, or in the very least make it require 2 casters to expend spells so that the lich counters the counterspell and a second caster counters that counterspell. It's a wacky wizard battle that's nuked at least 3 3rd level spells just to resolve a single round of casting... that's mission accomplished right there. Yeah in the end the spell is countered but the players are laying down spell resources to solve that problem.

    Every time you have a big monster fight you think you've botched, prod the group for feedback. You'll find they saw tension in situations where you knew they were fine the entire time after they very ably but unknowingly shut down your power move that would have represented the only true danger here. The biggest thing to do when players do that is to not give away that they totally fucked your plan. Keep selling the danger even after you're well aware there is none.

    ArcanisTheImpotentMalakaiusDaenrisoverride367Moridin889ElvenshaeAldoAnialos
  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Actually, thinking about it, I ran an AL game recently where four players had Counterspell (And three of them had Staff of the Magi - yay Season 08 rules >_< ) and I didn't get a spell off once. They were mostly Counterspelling mooks trying to cast Darkness, but had I considered this tactic I probably would have started using it.

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    You can split your movement over your turn though.

    Move behind cover.
    Cast Spell. Readying it to cast on the trigger of stepping out of cover.
    Step out of cover.
    Reaction is triggered, completing spell.

    Nah thats trying to bend the rules to circumvent the very simple execution of counterspell. Unless you complete the process out of sight then counterspell can always be cast as a reaction to a spell getting cast. There's no cast the fireball then step out from cover up finish it up and actually toss it or something. Finishing it up and tossing it is the thing that triggers counterspell.

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    That's exactly how the rules read though. I think it's bullshit too, but there it is.

    "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but
    hold its energy, which you release with your reaction
    when the trigger occurs."

    "Counterspell
    Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see
    a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

    Nealneal on
    IvelliusElvenshae
  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    it's not really a "good" answer to the counterspell war question, but it is worth noting it has a somatic component

    if you somehow get the Restrained (or similar) counterspell isn't an option

    not to mention, it's always triggered off of sight, so if you invoke an environmental effect that breaks visibility then bob's your uncle (cloudkill is good at this)

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    That's exactly how the rules read though. I think it's bullshit too, but there it is.

    "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but
    hold its energy, which you release with your reaction
    when the trigger occurs."

    "Counterspell
    Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see
    a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

    Which at best means you can round the corner to be out of sight, then end your turn in wait for the trigger to occur. I suppose the trigger could be, "when I finish casting the spell" but that seems awfully bullshit to make the trigger a thing you do on your own turn by readying the action.

    destroyah87
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    RAW it might be legal but you really don't want your lich doing that because it requires concentration. And no concentration kills almost any defensive buff the lich has.

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    Sleep
  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    Not only that, but the fact that it eats your movement, action, and reaction on top of preventing any concentration buffs. It's not a great tactic, and before today when I read the rules in depth on it, I would absolutely have called BS the first time a DM tried it on me.

    Hell, I researched the rules so I could call BS on Override367. I gladly admit that I was wrong on RAW and that is how it works. I still think it's BS.

  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    What are the rules for copying a spell from spell book to spell book. The DM and I seem to agree that it's the same cost and time, but the old book stays the same.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Soooooo after re-reading the rules on counterspell I'm pretty sure a few of his spells should have been able to go through, because he was invisible at the time...

    Oh well!

    I thought having foresight, mirror image, and shield all at once would have been enough to defend him, but I guess I need to throw globe of invulnerability and fly on him, too. He'll just have to make some spell glyphs in his lair he can trigger for those buffs so he won't have to use his own concentration on them.

    Hexmage-PA on
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    Kay wrote: »
    Keep in mind you can have an enemy spellcaster walk behind cover, hold an action to cast a spell, and then walk back out of cover and release the spell and it cannot be counterspelled.

    Why does it work this way? I don't get why holding an action makes the spell uncounterable.

    Because when you cast the spell, you weren't visible. When you release the spell as a reaction to "stepping out of cover" there is nothing for the opposing spellcaster to counter, the spell has been cast. It does cost both your action, move, and reaction though so it's pretty rough on an already tight action economy.

    Yes this exactly, you cast the spell when you hold it, it also kills any ongoing concentration spells because holding a spell requires concentration

  • ToothyToothy Registered User regular
    I mean, could always do something fun like have a big pit in the middle of the room that fills with magic every time a spell is being cast (including counterspells.) Then you have Mr. Lich eat the magic and become a demigod the next turn or get multiple turns or heal or whatever. Make it a Boss battle.

    Elvenshae
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    I think I broke Curse of Strahd

    We're level 9, we just went in and for-real killed the night hag coven at old bonegrinder. We walk outside and who is there but the devil himself.

    I tell the paladin to flip on the sunsword and put Strahd in a wall of force. Strahd casts Teleport, I counterspell - portent dice to auto-succeed.

    Strahd charmed the warlock, who has a +5 bow that does +2d8 necrotic damage because the DM went fucking nuts with magic items for some reason in the last 2 sessions, and as a consequencely my 50hp wizard threw herself at strahd and broke her Staff of Power over her knee, doing 240 points of damage to strahd and herself.

    DM had a look like "how could you" on her face but.... the warlock/fighter does, if he smites, and sharpshoots, which he would while charmed, 1d8 (pierce) + 2d8 (necrotic) + 5d8 (force) + 6 (cha) +5 (bow) +10 (ss). And since while sharpshooting he still has +12 to hit or something like that.... it's instant death for my character to get shot by him, so I had no choice but to suicide

    Paladin has the holy symbol blaring, strahd dies, campaign over.

    Roll d100, im still alive. DM announced strahd doesn't die, he mutates into a gargantuan monster and ends the session. My character is magically returned to the battle. Charm ends on the warlock. We get a free short rest (?).

    I don't actually want to do next session.... this feels... I mean, this was my favorite campaign ever until the DM started showering us with magic items, the two martials have weapons far superior to anything in the DMG... the sunsword is only worth turning on and using as a fashion accessory...

    This all the sudden does't feel like curse of strahd anymore, which is exactly why we kicked our last DM for our current one. I told her my concerns but she said "Sorry I thought I would add my own flavor, if you don't want any magic items I wont give them anymore"... which is missing the point. Letting us buy a wand of web or +1 armor from the vistani would be fine, throwing out a bard weapon that automatically psychic blades, gives the bard extra attack, is +3, and does 3d8 extra psychic on hit is ... just crazy

    also it makes me borderline worthless as a wizard, only good for being a suicide bomber as it happens

    override367 on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    What are the rules for copying a spell from spell book to spell book. The DM and I seem to agree that it's the same cost and time, but the old book stays the same.

    This is correct. Note also there is nothing preventing a wizard from having more than one book

    Goumindong on
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    Elvenshae
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    Why give your players a suicide bomb if you don't think they're going to use it.

    Moridin889JusticeforPlutoElvenshaeAnialosRhesus Positive
  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    I tell the paladin to flip on the sunsword and put Strahd in a wall of force. Strahd casts Teleport, I counterspell - portent dice to auto-succeed.

    Another instance of the DM not playing the NPC to the max.
    Legendary resistance, boom, teleport succeeded.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    italianranmaNarbusSmrtnikMoridin889Anialos
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Well the Staff of Power is a lot more than a suicide bomb.

    Even if it didnt have the bomb properties then it would probably be the strongest weapon in the game. Its a +2 quarterstaff that gives +2 to AC and Saves and also grants, on average, 13 spell level slots of spells per day. (Up to 5th level spells)

    wbBv3fj.png
    SmrtnikElvenshae
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    I tell the paladin to flip on the sunsword and put Strahd in a wall of force. Strahd casts Teleport, I counterspell - portent dice to auto-succeed.

    Another instance of the DM not playing the NPC to the max.
    Legendary resistance, boom, teleport succeeded.

    legendary resistance doesn't work against counterspell

    however, if the DM wanted it to, I wouldn't have argued

    I'm arguing with her, pleading with her, to have strahd reform in his castle. the book gives you cover for this, ive run this campaign, it says "strahd can only be killed in his place of rest" despite what his statblock says

    she doesn't want to do that though and it's making me feel pretty terrible, nobody is happy about how this is going down, players or DM

    Ken O
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    All Vampires explicitly mist if you kill them and return to reform in their place of rest. So you cannot kill Vlad like that (unless youre in a different plane as his place of rest)

    Also charmed players view the vampire as a friend but not necessarily their friends as enemies. So you werent at risk of getting blowing up by your friend

    Goumindong on
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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    I tell the paladin to flip on the sunsword and put Strahd in a wall of force. Strahd casts Teleport, I counterspell - portent dice to auto-succeed.

    Another instance of the DM not playing the NPC to the max.
    Legendary resistance, boom, teleport succeeded.

    legendary resistance doesn't work against counterspell

    however, if the DM wanted it to, I wouldn't have argued

    I'm arguing with her, pleading with her, to have strahd reform in his castle. the book gives you cover for this, ive run this campaign, it says "strahd can only be killed in his place of rest" despite what his statblock says

    she doesn't want to do that though and it's making me feel pretty terrible, nobody is happy about how this is going down, players or DM

    Dang.You are correct.

    Still, the DM really should have thought it through a bit more.
    Had Strahd charmed someone before in the campaign?

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Nealneal wrote: »
    Not only that, but the fact that it eats your movement, action, and reaction on top of preventing any concentration buffs. It's not a great tactic, and before today when I read the rules in depth on it, I would absolutely have called BS the first time a DM tried it on me.

    Hell, I researched the rules so I could call BS on Override367. I gladly admit that I was wrong on RAW and that is how it works. I still think it's BS.

    It's absolutely not BS, it's giving up concentration to get around a spell that has precious few counters, and it even works mechanically, they're literally holding onto the spell (for a maximum of 6 seconds). They could trigger a greater invisibility contingency and then cast whatever they wanted, get out of range and just sit in a globe of darkness (which they can see through), sit in a globe of invulnerability, have mooks focus the wizard who counterspells them as they do not have shield

    Another great option is for the lich's lair to have Glyph's of Warding.

    Glyph: Spell Store
    Spell Stored: Counterspell
    Triggering condition: A living creature casts counterspell

    A lich is a hyper intelligent entity and shouldn't sit within 60 feet and get his good shit counterspelled, a lich knows what counterspell is, and how to avoid it happening to them

    override367 on
    Smrtnikwebguy20Nyht
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Goumindong wrote: »
    All Vampires explicitly mist if you kill them and return to reform in their place of rest. So you cannot kill Vlad like that (unless youre in a different plane as his place of rest)

    Also charmed players view the vampire as a friend but not necessarily their friends as enemies. So you werent at risk of getting blowing up by your friend
    The Charmed target regards the vampire as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. Although the target isn't under the vampire's control, it takes the vampire's requests or Actions in the most favorable way it can, and it is a willing target for the vampire's bit Attack.

    The DM interprets this as, since we were trying to kill him, that he had to do what he could to take us out because his character doesn't even like the party

    The thing that's filling me with consternation is now we have a phase 2 boss the DM promises will be "appropriately difficult"

    Okay well, I'm a wizard, so my damage output is already most of the way down the list of "classes that do damage to one target", and my to hit is +8.... the warlock is+15 to hit and the bard is +13, and both of them squeeze about a good disintegrate's worth of damage per round

    I'm basically there as window dressing at this point, so I'm trying to justify not just dimension dooring away

    override367 on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Do you have spell slots left? A wizard is never really window dressing unless theyre out of slots

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Yeah I supposed if the fight lasts long enough the wizard can gradually work away an opponent's legendary resistances, but fights usually don't last long enough for a single caster to do that (ignoring that bosses are pretty good at resisting without those!) and nobody else is going to be doing anything other than wrecking his shit for hundreds of damage a turn

    If I had a single area of effect spell I could at least help against the wolves but I was kitted out for taking out 3 night hags not an army of wolves and a strahd-tarrasque... regardless I got one 3rd and one 4th so I'm good for casting dimension door and hoofing it back to town at this point lol

    override367 on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Your allies will have to do damage through the vampires defenses... like improved invisibility. So your party will need you to counter those with things like see invisibility.

    Also invisibility snd legendary actions are hella strong together.

    On turn the monster goes invisible. End of turn right before his he attacks then goes invisible on his turn.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    That's really kind of dumb.

    The whole point of Is the last fight being a run and gun in the castle while he throws at you all the servants you haven't killed yet. Him laughing the whole time at the best time he's had in centuries.

    At least that's what i intend to do for the group in DMing when they get there.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Your allies will have to do damage through the vampires defenses... like improved invisibility. So your party will need you to counter those with things like see invisibility.

    Also invisibility snd legendary actions are hella strong together.

    On turn the monster goes invisible. End of turn right before his he attacks then goes invisible on his turn.

    I mean dispel magic and counterspell alone make me worthwhile against a spellcasting boss, see invisibility is pointless in this campaign as both our damage dealers have truesight from the amber temple, the bard has mind blank and can't be charmed, I can't remove vampire charm as a wizard nor can I cast protection from good and evil.

    Hasting one of the people who does damage and firing magic missiles out of a wand is my best bet if I'm going to stand and fight

  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    All Vampires explicitly mist if you kill them and return to reform in their place of rest. So you cannot kill Vlad like that (unless youre in a different plane as his place of rest)

    Vampires can't turn back into mist while around the Sunsword. That pesky true sunlight thing.

  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    Not only that, but the fact that it eats your movement, action, and reaction on top of preventing any concentration buffs. It's not a great tactic, and before today when I read the rules in depth on it, I would absolutely have called BS the first time a DM tried it on me.

    Hell, I researched the rules so I could call BS on Override367. I gladly admit that I was wrong on RAW and that is how it works. I still think it's BS.

    It's absolutely not BS, it's giving up concentration to get around a spell that has precious few counters, and it even works mechanically, they're literally holding onto the spell (for a maximum of 6 seconds). They could trigger a greater invisibility contingency and then cast whatever they wanted, get out of range and just sit in a globe of darkness (which they can see through), sit in a globe of invulnerability, have mooks focus the wizard who counterspells them as they do not have shield

    Another great option is for the lich's lair to have Glyph's of Warding.

    Glyph: Spell Store
    Spell Stored: Counterspell
    Triggering condition: A living creature casts counterspell

    A lich is a hyper intelligent entity and shouldn't sit within 60 feet and get his good shit counterspelled, a lich knows what counterspell is, and how to avoid it happening to them

    Yea part of the challenge of fighting a Lich is either figuring out the tools required to fight them in their place of power, or finding a powerful enough artifact to lure them from it to face you on your terms.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Moridin889 wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    All Vampires explicitly mist if you kill them and return to reform in their place of rest. So you cannot kill Vlad like that (unless youre in a different plane as his place of rest)

    Vampires can't turn back into mist while around the Sunsword. That pesky true sunlight thing.

    Ahh then Vlad was boned and stupid and the players should have won.

    wbBv3fj.png
    destroyah87Smrtnik
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Moridin889 wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    All Vampires explicitly mist if you kill them and return to reform in their place of rest. So you cannot kill Vlad like that (unless youre in a different plane as his place of rest)

    Vampires can't turn back into mist while around the Sunsword. That pesky true sunlight thing.

    Ahh then Vlad was boned and stupid and the players should have won.

    Vlad would have (should have) known the players have the sunsword given his constant spying on the party by means magical and otherwise.

    All in all, sounds like the DM in question wanted to accelerate the end by handing out loot that's not even in the module.

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    Narbus
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Is the sunsword not in the module?

    wbBv3fj.png
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    edited March 26
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Is the sunsword not in the module?

    It is.

    But staff of power is not, not most of the other high end items @override367 mentioned earlier (i.e. +5 weapons mentioned, wtf).

    Smrtnik on
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    Moridin889
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    A lich is a hyper intelligent entity and shouldn't sit within 60 feet and get his good shit counterspelled, a lich knows what counterspell is, and how to avoid it happening to them

    Yeah, I gotta figure out some reason why my lich was being such a dumbass here...

    Hubris, maybe? He's so sure of himself that he thought he could curb stomp everyone. Plus the original party wizard had been gone for a bit and not only just reappeared through a gate but also brought a new wizard ally with him, so that could have blindsided him.

    Either way, he's gonna be especially pissed at those wizards now and ready to fuck them over big time.

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