Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[DnD 5E] You can't triple stamp a double stamp!

1757678808194

Posts

  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    wildwood wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    I think what I'm ultimately getting at is my disdain for daily combat resources. I think the PCs should have all their toys to play with in every fight, unless you're running through the part of the superhero movie (a part which I usually hate) where the hero loses their powers for a while and learns a new appreciation for what they had right before they get them back (but better this time).

    You know, reading through what I just wrote, I think it's probably just a style difference. I see D&D as fundamentally a power fantasy, and I like it like that. If I wanted like a character drama, or to explore the danger of unchecked power, or trying to be a hero in a world that doesn't care about heroes, I'd probably play a different game.
    1045357283_GCxg2-2100x20000.jpg

    Yeah that's basically it. I really do think Gamma World is the best edition of D&D. The PbP that I ran here is still one of my all-time favorite games.

    webguy20PowerpuppiesElvenshaeToxXagarwildwoodMahnmut
  • KadokenKadoken see what me tell you, seen Registered User regular
    My gnoll monk with loneliness issues asked an augur statue if she’d ever find love. The statue said, “you will find woe”. The table laughed at that and then laughed at the very sad face I made.

    (They’re not dicks and I was in on the joke too. Just damn on the account of the augur given her history. She wants to know what love is.)

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • KadokenKadoken see what me tell you, seen Registered User regular
    Also we had a guest on another game and he played a kobold bard.

    I offered up the name “Thin Lizzy” and he took it.

    JoJo’s Bizarre adventure was the best thing to ever happen to me in inspiring me to name things based off of music references.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
    Rhesus PositiveGlalElvenshaewebguy20Fry
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited July 21
    Glal wrote: »
    The moment you need to roll there's a 5% chance you'll fail regardless of how skilled you are. Which is fine in combat and stressful situations, it adds to the tension, but it feels real bad when you're a player and you basically fail to cross the street because of it.

    Unless your answer to "are you okay with the worst possible outcome if they keep rolling 1s?" is "yes" then don't make them roll. I had a Rogue in our 4th Ed game and she had the worst bloody luck. Which was annoying, because it was the one time I decided to make a more serious character that wasn't all jokes, but that doesn't really work when multiple times per session you fail something you're technically a grandmaster at because 5%.

    almost losing my character in a skill challenge while having full health and all of my spells in a recent saltmarsh game has really soured me on things like this, things that shouldnt need to be rolls:

    I rolled 2 ones so I failed to go up stairs, and I couldnt find which way the stairs were with a nat 1 perception after falling in the watter, so I just told the DM "I'm going to find a corner thats unlikely to be destroyed and wait for the ship to take on enough water that I can just swim out, I can't actually drown and I have 60 feet of swim speed.

    "Well this is a skill challenge to survive you have to keep making checks or you die"

    cool! I don't know if skill challenges of 4e just remove your ability to use abilities and spells but I don't like it

    I ended up holding the game up until I could cast a spell and did expeditious retreat and just ran out the side of the ship and engaged my outboard motor legs to swim away, I got knocked unconscious from full health by debris and the kraken attacking the ship (but ignoring us) party barely managed to fish me out of the water

    override367 on
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    I dunno man.... rolling all those nat1's sucks, but being asked to roll a few checks to see if you can escape a ship that's being tossed around by a kraken seems pretty legit.

    SleepMoridin889SmrtnikTynnanNarbusToxFry
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited July 21
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I dunno man.... rolling all those nat1's sucks, but being asked to roll a few checks to see if you can escape a ship that's being tossed around by a kraken seems pretty legit.

    Well have the kraken attack me and kill me, just having me auto die because I lose the ability to climb stairs (the stair climb check *was before the kraken actually had made contact with the ship*) is rough, or throwing random damage at me for trying to wait out the skill check, or telling me I cant cast spells or use class abilities

    I see why everyone hated fourth edition, it turns off the roleplaying game even more than combat and says "the commoners on the ship are better at surviving monster than you because of random luck now". Naturally all the required skill checks I was terrible at too, none of the skills that I have ludicrous bonuses in (and as an artificer, its a loooot) could be used

    I think I only survived because I had to ask the DM flat out once I had decided to go through a damaged section into the ocean if the kraken was actually attacking us or the ship, and told that it wasnt interested in us at all, so I swam away at 180 feet with expeditious retreat and took my max health in damage from an unspecified source with no save before being fished up by the crew, because I didn't pass the skill challenge

    I guess its designed to automatically kill wizards because after game asking the DM about the DCs, a wizard with -1 athletics and +3 acrobatics would have had something like a 30% chance of surviving that skill challenge. My character has 18 constitution and a pile of health and I barely made it, and only did so by just not doing the skill challenge (I'm not good at athletics! why do I have to keep trying to climb stairs)

    edit: I'm not sure I like the whole concept of skill monkeys essentially auto-succeeding, bards and rogues having a near 100% survival chance in challenges where druids, wizards, and the like have a very low chance of survival feels like shitty punishment for them picking spellcasters

    override367 on
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I dunno man.... rolling all those nat1's sucks, but being asked to roll a few checks to see if you can escape a ship that's being tossed around by a kraken seems pretty legit.

    Well have the kraken attack me and kill me, just having me auto die because I lose the ability to climb stairs (the stair climb check *was before the kraken actually had made contact with the ship*) is rough, or throwing random damage at me for trying to wait out the skill check, or telling me I cant cast spells or use class abilities

    I see why everyone hated fourth edition, it turns off the roleplaying game even more than combat and says "the commoners on the ship are better at surviving monster than you because of random luck now". Naturally all the required skill checks I was terrible at too, none of the skills that I have ludicrous bonuses in (and as an artificer, its a loooot) could be used

    I think I only survived because I had to ask the DM flat out once I had decided to go through a damaged section into the ocean if the kraken was actually attacking us or the ship, and told that it wasnt interested in us at all, so I swam away at 180 feet with expeditious retreat and took my max health in damage from an unspecified source with no save before being fished up by the crew, because I didn't pass the skill challenge

    I guess its designed to automatically kill wizards because after game asking the DM about the DCs, a wizard with -1 athletics and +3 acrobatics would have had something like a 30% chance of surviving that skill challenge. My character has 18 constitution and a pile of health and I barely made it, and only did so by just not doing the skill challenge (I'm not good at athletics! why do I have to keep trying to climb stairs)

    That's not how skill challenges worked in 4E. Whatever this new 5E version is is not what the 4E version was.

    Not allowing your PC's abilities to work sounds like a personal choice of the DM which I very strongly don't agree with. I can't imagine any of the 5E books would encourage that.

    In fact in 4E, the right ability could basically give you an auto-success if it was relevant to the challenge. Now granted this was all somewhat dependent on who was writing the skill challenge, but the precedent was there in official materials.

    Moridin889SmrtnikDarkPrimusSteelhawkRhesus PositiveGlalTynnanElvenshaePhoenix-Dwebguy20Hexmage-PAToxJustTeeNips
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited July 21
    I'm not sure if she got it from the module or is just doing skill challenges, but I asked "well, since I'm a shipwright and an expert carpenter can I check for the least vulnerable part of the ship? I'm faster in water than out if I can find a safe place until it fills with water I'll have an easier time" and was told that I had to make an athletics, acrobatics, or perception check, because those were the skills for this challenge. All 3 I'm balls, and had to argue quite a bit to be allowed to cast a spell

    she ended up relenting and letting me cast spells and said "fine this is how skill challenges work we just won't do them anymore". I feel like I've seen Matt Mercer do them in critical roll and he doesn't tell the players what skills to roll, that's shit, their participation isn't even necessary if it's just going to be a few rolls in a predetermined sequence. In Critical Roll skill challenges always involve the players being asked how they want to contribute to getting out of this mess, it's always questions and not commands from the DM - I feel like that might be pretty good

    I really like my salt marsh DM but she has a tendency to get boxed in by her notes and plans

    override367 on
    destroyah87
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Yeah i read saltmarsh that's not how that's supposed to work at all.

    The kraken sinks the ship, if you are in it when he does chances are you die because the so ship sinks faster than most swim speeds and the Easter is deep. You don't just take mistery damage and die, that's your DM being obtuse and mad you byoassed what she had in mind (book didn't mention the possibility of the player good though the hull instead of climbing the stairs so therefore your DM panicked/got mad instead of leaning into it).

    steam_sig.png
    AldoElvenshaewebguy20ToxJustTeeMoridin889
  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I dunno man.... rolling all those nat1's sucks, but being asked to roll a few checks to see if you can escape a ship that's being tossed around by a kraken seems pretty legit.

    Well have the kraken attack me and kill me, just having me auto die because I lose the ability to climb stairs (the stair climb check *was before the kraken actually had made contact with the ship*) is rough, or throwing random damage at me for trying to wait out the skill check, or telling me I cant cast spells or use class abilities

    I see why everyone hated fourth edition, it turns off the roleplaying game even more than combat and says "the commoners on the ship are better at surviving monster than you because of random luck now". Naturally all the required skill checks I was terrible at too, none of the skills that I have ludicrous bonuses in (and as an artificer, its a loooot) could be used

    I think I only survived because I had to ask the DM flat out once I had decided to go through a damaged section into the ocean if the kraken was actually attacking us or the ship, and told that it wasnt interested in us at all, so I swam away at 180 feet with expeditious retreat and took my max health in damage from an unspecified source with no save before being fished up by the crew, because I didn't pass the skill challenge

    I guess its designed to automatically kill wizards because after game asking the DM about the DCs, a wizard with -1 athletics and +3 acrobatics would have had something like a 30% chance of surviving that skill challenge. My character has 18 constitution and a pile of health and I barely made it, and only did so by just not doing the skill challenge (I'm not good at athletics! why do I have to keep trying to climb stairs)

    That's not how skill challenges worked in 4E. Whatever this new 5E version is is not what the 4E version was.

    Not allowing your PC's abilities to work sounds like a personal choice of the DM which I very strongly don't agree with. I can't imagine any of the 5E books would encourage that.

    In fact in 4E, the right ability could basically give you an auto-success if it was relevant to the challenge. Now granted this was all somewhat dependent on who was writing the skill challenge, but the precedent was there in official materials.
    This. In fact, our 4th Ed DM would go out of their way to let us use our abilities even when their mechanical portion didn't fit if the fluff portion did.

    And 4th abilities usually have really fun fluff, so there was a lot to work with.

    SteelhawkDarkPrimusElvenshae
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Glal wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I dunno man.... rolling all those nat1's sucks, but being asked to roll a few checks to see if you can escape a ship that's being tossed around by a kraken seems pretty legit.

    Well have the kraken attack me and kill me, just having me auto die because I lose the ability to climb stairs (the stair climb check *was before the kraken actually had made contact with the ship*) is rough, or throwing random damage at me for trying to wait out the skill check, or telling me I cant cast spells or use class abilities

    I see why everyone hated fourth edition, it turns off the roleplaying game even more than combat and says "the commoners on the ship are better at surviving monster than you because of random luck now". Naturally all the required skill checks I was terrible at too, none of the skills that I have ludicrous bonuses in (and as an artificer, its a loooot) could be used

    I think I only survived because I had to ask the DM flat out once I had decided to go through a damaged section into the ocean if the kraken was actually attacking us or the ship, and told that it wasnt interested in us at all, so I swam away at 180 feet with expeditious retreat and took my max health in damage from an unspecified source with no save before being fished up by the crew, because I didn't pass the skill challenge

    I guess its designed to automatically kill wizards because after game asking the DM about the DCs, a wizard with -1 athletics and +3 acrobatics would have had something like a 30% chance of surviving that skill challenge. My character has 18 constitution and a pile of health and I barely made it, and only did so by just not doing the skill challenge (I'm not good at athletics! why do I have to keep trying to climb stairs)

    That's not how skill challenges worked in 4E. Whatever this new 5E version is is not what the 4E version was.

    Not allowing your PC's abilities to work sounds like a personal choice of the DM which I very strongly don't agree with. I can't imagine any of the 5E books would encourage that.

    In fact in 4E, the right ability could basically give you an auto-success if it was relevant to the challenge. Now granted this was all somewhat dependent on who was writing the skill challenge, but the precedent was there in official materials.
    This. In fact, our 4th Ed DM would go out of their way to let us use our abilities even when their mechanical portion didn't fit if the fluff portion did.

    And 4th abilities usually have really fun fluff, so there was a lot to work with.
    Glal wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I dunno man.... rolling all those nat1's sucks, but being asked to roll a few checks to see if you can escape a ship that's being tossed around by a kraken seems pretty legit.

    Well have the kraken attack me and kill me, just having me auto die because I lose the ability to climb stairs (the stair climb check *was before the kraken actually had made contact with the ship*) is rough, or throwing random damage at me for trying to wait out the skill check, or telling me I cant cast spells or use class abilities

    I see why everyone hated fourth edition, it turns off the roleplaying game even more than combat and says "the commoners on the ship are better at surviving monster than you because of random luck now". Naturally all the required skill checks I was terrible at too, none of the skills that I have ludicrous bonuses in (and as an artificer, its a loooot) could be used

    I think I only survived because I had to ask the DM flat out once I had decided to go through a damaged section into the ocean if the kraken was actually attacking us or the ship, and told that it wasnt interested in us at all, so I swam away at 180 feet with expeditious retreat and took my max health in damage from an unspecified source with no save before being fished up by the crew, because I didn't pass the skill challenge

    I guess its designed to automatically kill wizards because after game asking the DM about the DCs, a wizard with -1 athletics and +3 acrobatics would have had something like a 30% chance of surviving that skill challenge. My character has 18 constitution and a pile of health and I barely made it, and only did so by just not doing the skill challenge (I'm not good at athletics! why do I have to keep trying to climb stairs)

    That's not how skill challenges worked in 4E. Whatever this new 5E version is is not what the 4E version was.

    Not allowing your PC's abilities to work sounds like a personal choice of the DM which I very strongly don't agree with. I can't imagine any of the 5E books would encourage that.

    In fact in 4E, the right ability could basically give you an auto-success if it was relevant to the challenge. Now granted this was all somewhat dependent on who was writing the skill challenge, but the precedent was there in official materials.
    This. In fact, our 4th Ed DM would go out of their way to let us use our abilities even when their mechanical portion didn't fit if the fluff portion did.

    And 4th abilities usually have really fun fluff, so there was a lot to work with.

    And that's how it should work in 5e too.

    ElvenshaeTynnanoverride367JustTeeMoridin889NipsNyhtZonugal
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited July 21
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Yeah i read saltmarsh that's not how that's supposed to work at all.

    The kraken sinks the ship, if you are in it when he does chances are you die because the so ship sinks faster than most swim speeds and the Easter is deep. You don't just take mistery damage and die, that's your DM being obtuse and mad you byoassed what she had in mind (book didn't mention the possibility of the player good though the hull instead of climbing the stairs so therefore your DM panicked/got mad instead of leaning into it).

    As an artificer, I have a cap of water breathing AND a cloak of the manta ray, so it doesn't really matter how deep it is. I feel like my desire to just hunker down and wait for the ship to start sinking before going out a hull breech was a sound one. Anyway we're going to talk with her about it when she finishes her summer overtime and starts hosting games again

    Spoiler for more ranty bullshit that I just have to get off my chest
    I haven't been having a lot of enjoyable sessions as a player lately. In my other game we detoured from out of the abyss to do a random Dungeon of the Mad Mage dungeon, we searched the bottom of the dark lake and found a temple. Thing's got nothing but undead in demons, which are all immune or resistant to all my spore druid's class features and domain spells. At the end we're prepping for fighting the undead archmage, I give a potion of speed to the fighter and cast prot from poison, longstrider, jump, freedom of movement, and prot from good and evil on the fighter. Open the door and the fighter is immediately forcecaged. Every single round in that fight the lich counterspelled me, letting the NPC vampire allies (they were an encounter but we talked them into leaving with a natural 20 with a promise of freedom) cast whatever they wanted

    I ended up getting frustrated and on my turn just said "I just get in his face and take the dodge action". Dm: you sure you dont want to cast something? Me: whats the point, DM: I dunno but you dont know. Me: Okay. I cast moonbeam. Him: Counterspelled. Me: thanks

    post session had a bit of an argument in private with the DM. I never want to tell another DM "well, I would do it this way", because he said "Sorry that wasnt a satisfying fight for you or fighter but he has force cage am I not supposed to use it?" I reminded him that as the DM he has the ability to both set which spells the villain has and controls when and if they use them and he got increasingly upset with me. I asked him how much longer this dungeon is going to be and he said "you're the one who wanted to search the underwater tomb", I reminded him "your history check tells you water weirds guard great treasure so there's probably something down there" and now it seems like he's running a dungeon he doesn't want to that we are't enjoying because he has to and I'm trying to convey to him the DM doesn't HAVE to do anything

    hope I can cool that one off by next week and we can get back to out of the abyss, throwing a 15th level megadungeon at the bottom of the dark lake seems like a questionable replacement for a random encounter

    override367 on
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    In regards to the spoiler.

    It makes complete sense for that Bad guy to have those abilities, and use them! BUT. When you are using a powerful creature like that I'm of the believe that their abilities should be foreshadowed, and potential work around's be discoverable as well. Also what is this big bad doing down there? Are there not things that they care about and are potentially willing to protect or otherwise use their reactions and actions on?

    I don't like random boss fights. There should be a build up.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    override367
  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    I've a vague memory of counterspell being a "this should primarily be used by players, because it gets really frustrating for players when NPCs use it" spell. Actions that make your players skip a turn should be used very sparingly, especially in large groups where it can take 10+ minutes to get a turn.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Glal wrote: »
    I've a vague memory of counterspell being a "this should primarily be used by players, because it gets really frustrating for players when NPCs use it" spell. Actions that make your players skip a turn should be used very sparingly, especially in large groups where it can take 10+ minutes to get a turn.

    yeah going 90 minutes of purely being counterspelled is...

    well demoralizing is a word

    especially when the lich never even attacked me, apparently im such a threat that I have to be counterspelled (sure i was the strongest spellcaster there) but not so much of a threat that he should attack me or make me withdraw or anything

    We had two vampire *lords* allied and I suggested to the DM that the lich could have forcaged them instead, and his reply was "but they deliberately hid to avoid being crowd controlled at the start of the fight".... sure but... they're your npcs, you had them hide, because you knew that they would be forcecaged if they went in first. Given the party level of 10 and 11, we have absolutely no counters to force cage, no counterspell, it cant be dispelled, it just removed the fighter from the battle.

    Just a sour taste

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Counterspell is not automatically successful if the countered spell if higher lvl, the counter speller had to roll to succeed with dc going up the more the spell levels deviate.

    steam_sig.png
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    Override I just want to say your instincts are correct and if the DM listened to some of these things you're saying she would be doing a better job.

    sig.gif
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited July 22
    Counterspell is definitely tricky. Some things to keep in mind:

    - Xanathar's Guide to Everything has rules on identifying spells that are being cast. Doing so takes a reaction, same as counterspell. This means that someone casting counterspell can't identify what spell they are counterspelling themselves and would have to rely on an ally using their reaction to identify it for them. Further, the identifier must succeed on an Arcana check with a DC equal to 15 plus the spell's level. Designer Jeremy Crawford has stated that this is intended to reduce the potency of counterspell.
    - A spell can only be counterspelled if the caster can be seen.
    - Spells can be cast and held as a readied action, meaning you could cast and hold the spell behind cover and then release it out of cover. A spell can only be counterspelled when it is cast, meaning it has no effect on readied and released spells.
    - Counterspell can itself be counterspelled!

    Hexmage-PA on
    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
    webguy20SmrtnikTynnanJustTeeMoridin889DaenrisIvelliusNyhtZonugal
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    I feel pretty good about how my session today went! The PCs had to defend against a horde of demons, culminating in them battling an obscure demon lord (represented with a modified kraken statblock) riding a colossal four-clawed crab. The Oath of Vengeance Paladin started to sweat after the crab grappled him and kept him from attacking the demon lord, whose reach was superior. The Paladin eventually decided to break the claw he was being grappled in before finally making it to the demon lord and finishing him. The party wizard dealt with the crab itself by using polymorph (after first waiting for the crab to use up its legendary resistances).

    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
    Ivellius
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    I'm not sure how 'you can't identify AND counter the same spell' is supposed to be a meaningful limit of the power level of Counterspell.

    A)The important benefit of Counterspell, generally, is not countering a specific spell or their best spell or whatever, it's that you get to spend a reaction to eat a powerful enemy's action. The action economy advantage is what's actually important and you only lose that by not identifying the spell if you accidentally hit them casting a bonus action spell - in which case they still can't cast another non-cantrip on the same turn so any full wizardy type who can't follow the bonus action spell up with melee attacks has mostly burned his whole turn regardless.

    B)Even if you care a lot about Counterspelling the opponent's best spell - congratulations! You succeeded in that goal, because whatever he was casting was his best spell, because that's why he was casting it. 5e fights are short. Actions are precious. No wizards are sitting around spending whole turns trying to bait out counterspells by casting cantrips first so they can bust out a Disintegrate at the last second, they're casting their best shit up-front because its their best shit and they either cast it now or not at all. Counterspell it.

    Casting behind cover and remembering you can counterspell a counterspell (and he can't re-counter your counter-counter because his reaction is already spent) are much more relevant ways to deal with a counterspell-happy opponent than pretending it matters what spell was originally being cast.

    Either way, counterspell (and hard CC like forcecage) are definitely effects I would use sparingly as a DM, mostly on enemies I either want to emphasize as real threats or want the players to really hate, because regularly losing your turns while everyone else gets to play is a pretty classic un-fun experience.

    GlalSleepElvenshae
  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    On top of that it's ridiculous for the DM to play the vampire allies when he has two players available to play them

    sig.gif
    Toxwebguy20BullheadElvenshaeMoridin889
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    I ended up getting frustrated and on my turn just said "I just get in his face and take the dodge action". Dm: you sure you dont want to cast something? Me: whats the point, DM: I dunno but you dont know. Me: Okay. I cast moonbeam. Him: Counterspelled.

    Nah but this is table-flip worthy. Goading you into casting just to counter? I would have had a very real in real life meltdown.

    An ugly one.

    I would never speak to that DM again.

    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
    KadokenSmrtnikElvenshaeMoridin889JPantsPhoenix-D
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    On top of that it's ridiculous for the DM to play the vampire allies when he has two players available to play them

    Since they were running the vampires it would have been perfect TO force cage them, because then it lets the DM show that this is a powerful caster, AND it lets the party itself shine!

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    SmrtnikAldoTynnanGlalNarbusRhesus PositiveBullheaddestroyah87ElvenshaeMoridin889override367FryNips
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited July 22
    Abbalah wrote: »
    I'm not sure how 'you can't identify AND counter the same spell' is supposed to be a meaningful limit of the power level of Counterspell.

    A)The important benefit of Counterspell, generally, is not countering a specific spell or their best spell or whatever, it's that you get to spend a reaction to eat a powerful enemy's action. The action economy advantage is what's actually important and you only lose that by not identifying the spell if you accidentally hit them casting a bonus action spell - in which case they still can't cast another non-cantrip on the same turn so any full wizardy type who can't follow the bonus action spell up with melee attacks has mostly burned his whole turn regardless.

    B)Even if you care a lot about Counterspelling the opponent's best spell - congratulations! You succeeded in that goal, because whatever he was casting was his best spell, because that's why he was casting it. 5e fights are short. Actions are precious. No wizards are sitting around spending whole turns trying to bait out counterspells by casting cantrips first so they can bust out a Disintegrate at the last second, they're casting their best shit up-front because its their best shit and they either cast it now or not at all. Counterspell it.

    Casting behind cover and remembering you can counterspell a counterspell (and he can't re-counter your counter-counter because his reaction is already spent) are much more relevant ways to deal with a counterspell-happy opponent than pretending it matters what spell was originally being cast.

    Either way, counterspell (and hard CC like forcecage) are definitely effects I would use sparingly as a DM, mostly on enemies I either want to emphasize as real threats or want the players to really hate, because regularly losing your turns while everyone else gets to play is a pretty classic un-fun experience.

    I've just found another big flaw with the idea of limiting counterspell with this identification rule.

    PC: (thinking) I'm going to try casting fireball.
    PC: I'm casting a spell. Any reactions?
    DM: The lich casts a spell as a reaction. Any reactions?
    PCs: No reactions.
    DM: The lich casts counterspell level 3.
    PC: (lie) You counter a magic missile.

    Next turn:

    PC: (thinking) I'm going to try casting fireball again.
    PC: I'm casting a spell. Any reactions?
    DM: No reactions.
    PC: I cast fireball.

    EDIT: However, I just saw this, which suddenly makes me like the idea of the ID rule a lot more.
    The Spell Identification rule also highlights the importance of a Familiar. A Familiar acts independently, and can communicate Telepathically with it's Summoner when it is within 100ft. This means Spell-casters with a Familiar have an important advantage when using Counterspell, versus Spell-casters without one. The Familiar can use its Reaction to identify the Spell & Telepathically communicate the Identification, at which point the Spell-caster can decide if it's a Spell that's worth Counterspelling...

    Is there a way to salvage the concept?

    Hexmage-PA on
    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Abbalah wrote: »
    I'm not sure how 'you can't identify AND counter the same spell' is supposed to be a meaningful limit of the power level of Counterspell.

    A)The important benefit of Counterspell, generally, is not countering a specific spell or their best spell or whatever, it's that you get to spend a reaction to eat a powerful enemy's action. The action economy advantage is what's actually important and you only lose that by not identifying the spell if you accidentally hit them casting a bonus action spell - in which case they still can't cast another non-cantrip on the same turn so any full wizardy type who can't follow the bonus action spell up with melee attacks has mostly burned his whole turn regardless.

    B)Even if you care a lot about Counterspelling the opponent's best spell - congratulations! You succeeded in that goal, because whatever he was casting was his best spell, because that's why he was casting it. 5e fights are short. Actions are precious. No wizards are sitting around spending whole turns trying to bait out counterspells by casting cantrips first so they can bust out a Disintegrate at the last second, they're casting their best shit up-front because its their best shit and they either cast it now or not at all. Counterspell it.

    Casting behind cover and remembering you can counterspell a counterspell (and he can't re-counter your counter-counter because his reaction is already spent) are much more relevant ways to deal with a counterspell-happy opponent than pretending it matters what spell was originally being cast.

    Either way, counterspell (and hard CC like forcecage) are definitely effects I would use sparingly as a DM, mostly on enemies I either want to emphasize as real threats or want the players to really hate, because regularly losing your turns while everyone else gets to play is a pretty classic un-fun experience.

    I've just found another big flaw with the idea of limiting counterspell with this identification rule.

    PC: (thinking) I'm going to try casting fireball.
    PC: I'm casting a spell. Any reactions?
    DM: The lich casts a spell as a reaction. Any reactions?
    PCs: No reactions.
    DM: The lich casts counterspell level 3.
    PC: (lie) You counter a magic missile.

    Next turn:

    PC: (thinking) I'm going to try casting fireball again.
    PC: I'm casting a spell. Any reactions?
    DM: No reactions.
    PC: I cast fireball.

    If you're playing with a cheater you're going to have a bad time regardless of the situation.

    Steelhawkoverride367DarkPrimusDaenrisToxNyhtZonugal
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Spell cards face down, flipped when the bad guy decides whether or not to counterspell

    ElvenshaeFryNyhtNipsZonugal
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited July 22
    To illustrate how tough my players are at 18th-level, in yesterday's session they defeated eight skeletons, three shadow demons, two armanites, two goristros, two wastriliths, three allips, a glabrezu, a barlgura, a purple worm, and a demon lord represented by a modified kraken statblock. This took place in three fights connected back to back with no time to rest.

    The party is made up of a paladin, a wizard, and a druid/ranger with two dire wolf companions (I allowed this because we're low on players). The druid/ranger true polymorphed into a bronze dragon and used frightful presence to keep everything away from her and split the enemy group in two, then the dire wolves and wizard mowed down one group of enemies while the paladin took down another.

    The skeletons and goristros (who were initially manning oversized siege weapons) were SUPPOSED to pepper the party with projectiles from a distance, but they all missed with every shot! I had one goristro get so frustrated that he destroyed his mangonel. The paladin effortlessly mowed down the skeletons while flying over them on a nightmare with spirit guardians activated, causing them to crumble immediately.

    Hexmage-PA on
    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
    Bullhead
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    The other thing about counterspell is that it eats that target's reaction, which is not always a trivial thing. Maybe it's just the 5e DMs I've had, but caster bosses often have other great things to do with that reaction (spells like Shield, for example, which can cripple the party's DPS for a turn, or opportunity attacks) so there's still value there.

    I recall one specific instance where my group baited a counterspell from our enemy so that my Paladin and the Fighter could both nova him right after. Doesn't seem like that would have helped much in this situation, but that action economy cuts both ways. A single enemy fight means the entire enemy side gets 1 action and 1 bonus action. Under the circumstances, a Wizard's action might be less valuable than the enemy's bonus action.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited July 22
    Identifying the spell wasn't really an issue for the lich with me being the only PC spellcaster in the room who was casting spells, me being an 11th level spellcaster the lich will run me dry of all spells before it runs out of counterspells

    Anyway I explained to him that in my Storm King's Thunder game, how would he feel if his cleric's entire list of domain spells and channel divinity were ineffective for the entirety of a dungeon - a dungeon that isn't part of the module, that I inserted into the module, and given that that party has no answer to counterspell either, gave the final boss counterspell

    His answer was that he didn't "give" the lich counterspell and I cut him off and corrected him that he can *pick which spells the lich has prepared* and he said he didn't have time. Me and fighter both agreed we'd rather the DM take a 5 minute break and realign an enemy's spell list than run an unfun fight, perhaps he has chain lightning or time stop instead? WE dont have counterspell either, so its an opportunity to go nuts with a lich, and he agreed that would have been better

    override367 on
    ElvenshaeDarkPrimus
  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    Finally getting to play D&D again soon. I'm going to play a Half Elf Knowledge domain Cleric of Deneir with the Archaeologist background. All about unearthing lost civilizations and collecting ancient texts in order the preserve them. My goal is to find a lost city rumored to have an unparalleled library of ancient knowledge.

    I have quite a few skills because of Half Elf Skill Versatility and the Knowledge Domain, and my skill choices are mainly to fit into my archaeology motif. Arcana, History and Religion as well as Perception, Investigation and Insight. I also took Persuasion to take advantage of a Half Elf's natural Charisma, but I might swap it for Medicine, I'm not sure. Background gave me the Survival skill too.

    I even took Mending as one of my cantrips in case I find damaged books or texts. I'm pretty excited for it.

    RiusElvenshaeSteelhawkdavidsdurionsKadokenKen Ooverride367JPantsIvelliushlprmnkyNyhtZonugal
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    "It belongs in a temple!"

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
    KadokenFryoverride367hlprmnkyMoridin889Zonugal
  • KadokenKadoken see what me tell you, seen Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    Does Cats Grace give +4 to the characteristic or the modifier?

    Also, good ways, spells, scrolls, etc to ground a dragon?

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Does Cats Grace give +4 to the characteristic or the modifier?

    Also, good ways, spells, scrolls, etc to ground a dragon?

    The characteristic. Do not this is 3.5 only. Cats Grace was removed in 5e in favor of enhanced ability which gives you advantage on skill checks regarding the skill

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • KadokenKadoken see what me tell you, seen Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Does Cats Grace give +4 to the characteristic or the modifier?

    Also, good ways, spells, scrolls, etc to ground a dragon?

    The characteristic. Do not this is 3.5 only. Cats Grace was removed in 5e in favor of enhanced ability which gives you advantage on skill checks regarding the skill

    Can you get that in potion form? I'm trying to give my monk all the advantages she can get.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    I think so yes. Ask your dm

    wbBv3fj.png
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Alright these are pretty much my homebrew rules currently. Note that every character at level 1 starts with 2 hit dice now, and gain 1 per level as normal after that. Both these hit dice are at the max value, as per the normal at level 1. Also that I've set everything to recharge on a short rest, so that's why the spell slots are halved. This is still very much in testing.

    "Ways to Spend Hit Dice
    - Gain advantage on an attack, saving throw or skill check, this is declared before the roll is made.

    - Reroll any number of dice, once, that are part of the current damage roll.

    - Cause an enemy to have disadvantage on an attack or saving throw. This is declared before the roll is made.

    - Regain a level of exhaustion.

    - Make a healing check of 10+, on success spend a hit dice and the creature you performed a check on regains one of their expended hit dice.

    - Regain your proficiency worth of spell slots back. "



    "Healing Changes
    - When a Creature is healed through a Magical spell, they expend a hit dice. This healing is maximized.

    - When a hit dice is expended during healing, any healing over a creatures max HP (up to 10HP) is converted to Temp HP.

    - If a creature is out of hit dice and is healed by a Magical spell, they regain 1HP.

    - Hit Dice regained at the end of a long rest equal a character's proficiency modifier. "



    "Misc. Rules
    - Instead of Abilities/Spells being defined as short rest and long rest for recharging, everything resets on a short rest.

    - A Short Rest is now 15 minutes instead of an hour

    - All spell casters, except for warlocks, how have half the amount spell slots as listed in class selection, rounded up. Cantrips remain unchanged. "

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    Kadoken
  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    interesting stuff

    I'll keep an eye on this, I like the healing/hit dice mechanic you got here. my DMing style would benefit from this in a lot of ways, as I seldom have multiple combat encounters in one session; I tend to really enjoy the "smoke em if you got em" explosiveness of using everything in big explosive setpiece battles rather than the "grind em down with many pointless fights of little consequence", and so my party just doesn't use their Hit Dice that much

    hell, if I adopted something like this I'd probably just say "per encounter recharge it all", leave all those mechanics the same (spells and all) and turn hit dice back into the Healing Surge of yore

    probably not a good idea if you aren't REALLY good at the game's math on an instinctual level though because you will innately have to tune up your encounters and make sure your party is relatively equal in their potency (no one playing 15 mainstat for example)

    ArcanisTheImpotent on
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    interesting stuff

    I'll keep an eye on this, I like the healing/hit dice mechanic you got here. my DMing style would benefit from this in a lot of ways, as I seldom have multiple combat encounters in one session; I tend to really enjoy the "smoke em if you got em" explosiveness of using everything in big explosive setpiece battles rather than the "grind em down with many pointless fights of little consequence", and so my party just doesn't use their Hit Dice that much

    hell, if I adopted something like this I'd probably just say "per encounter recharge it all", leave all those mechanics the same (spells and all) and turn hit dice back into the Healing Surge of yore

    probably not a good idea if you aren't REALLY good at the game's math on an instinctual level though because you will innately have to tune up your encounters and make sure your party is relatively equal in their potency (no one playing 15 mainstat for example)

    yea, I also adopt an 18, 16, 14, 10, 10, 8 array with no inherent ability bonuses due to race, but everyone gets a free feat (that can't bump ability scores) to start. I like to run big heroic games, so I'm trying to tune the game to that.

    webguy20 on
    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Alright these are pretty much my homebrew rules currently. Note that every character at level 1 starts with 2 hit dice now, and gain 1 per level as normal after that. Both these hit dice are at the max value, as per the normal at level 1. Also that I've set everything to recharge on a short rest, so that's why the spell slots are halved. This is still very much in testing.

    "Ways to Spend Hit Dice
    - Gain advantage on an attack, saving throw or skill check, this is declared before the roll is made.

    - Reroll any number of dice, once, that are part of the current damage roll.

    - Cause an enemy to have disadvantage on an attack or saving throw. This is declared before the roll is made.

    - Regain a level of exhaustion.

    - Make a healing check of 10+, on success spend a hit dice and the creature you performed a check on regains one of their expended hit dice.

    - Regain your proficiency worth of spell slots back. "



    "Healing Changes
    - When a Creature is healed through a Magical spell, they expend a hit dice. This healing is maximized.

    - When a hit dice is expended during healing, any healing over a creatures max HP (up to 10HP) is converted to Temp HP.

    - If a creature is out of hit dice and is healed by a Magical spell, they regain 1HP.

    - Hit Dice regained at the end of a long rest equal a character's proficiency modifier. "



    "Misc. Rules
    - Instead of Abilities/Spells being defined as short rest and long rest for recharging, everything resets on a short rest.

    - A Short Rest is now 15 minutes instead of an hour

    - All spell casters, except for warlocks, how have half the amount spell slots as listed in class selection, rounded up. Cantrips remain unchanged. "

    This seems... i dont know what the intention is.

    Wizards cannot have all their spells back on a short rest and also have “halved spells”. You only ever get 1 7th 8th and 9th level spell per day so this like... quadruples their budget (since its easier to get short rests)

    Long rests now make a significnatly reduced HP budget. I have a feeling this heavily breaks at higher levels. Even though healing from HD is maxed at higher levels youre probably going to chew through a lot of healing from a lot of sources. Classes that get bonus healing are significantly hilariously buffed. (Paladins especially... i lay on hands for 1 pt...)

    The “solution” seems to be that you heal as big as possible (using up all those high level slots for healing... yeaaaaa!) or not at all. Heal check transfering HD means that damage is amazingly transferable.

    With the new way lower budget of HP letting people spend HD to give an attack advantage/disadvantage seems... weak

    Edit: i am thinking that maybe you should convince your group to play 4e. It feels like it does what you want it to do better (essentials if not full)

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
    Ivellius
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Alright these are pretty much my homebrew rules currently. Note that every character at level 1 starts with 2 hit dice now, and gain 1 per level as normal after that. Both these hit dice are at the max value, as per the normal at level 1. Also that I've set everything to recharge on a short rest, so that's why the spell slots are halved. This is still very much in testing.

    "Ways to Spend Hit Dice
    - Gain advantage on an attack, saving throw or skill check, this is declared before the roll is made.

    - Reroll any number of dice, once, that are part of the current damage roll.

    - Cause an enemy to have disadvantage on an attack or saving throw. This is declared before the roll is made.

    - Regain a level of exhaustion.

    - Make a healing check of 10+, on success spend a hit dice and the creature you performed a check on regains one of their expended hit dice.

    - Regain your proficiency worth of spell slots back. "



    "Healing Changes
    - When a Creature is healed through a Magical spell, they expend a hit dice. This healing is maximized.

    - When a hit dice is expended during healing, any healing over a creatures max HP (up to 10HP) is converted to Temp HP.

    - If a creature is out of hit dice and is healed by a Magical spell, they regain 1HP.

    - Hit Dice regained at the end of a long rest equal a character's proficiency modifier. "



    "Misc. Rules
    - Instead of Abilities/Spells being defined as short rest and long rest for recharging, everything resets on a short rest.

    - A Short Rest is now 15 minutes instead of an hour

    - All spell casters, except for warlocks, how have half the amount spell slots as listed in class selection, rounded up. Cantrips remain unchanged. "

    This seems... i dont know what the intention is.

    Wizards cannot have all their spells back on a short rest and also have “halved spells”. You only ever get 1 7th 8th and 9th level spell per day so this like... quadruples their budget (since its easier to get short rests)

    Long rests now make a significantly reduced HP budget. I have a feeling this heavily breaks at higher levels. Even though healing from HD is maxed at higher levels you're probably going to chew through a lot of healing from a lot of sources. Classes that get bonus healing are significantly hilariously buffed. (Paladins especially... i lay on hands for 1 pt...)

    The “solution” seems to be that you heal as big as possible (using up all those high level slots for healing... yeaaaaa!) or not at all. Heal check transfering HD means that damage is amazingly transferable.

    With the new way lower budget of HP letting people spend HD to give an attack advantage/disadvantage seems... weak

    That's why it's a work in progress. I completely expect it to break at high levels, the halving of the spell slots is a temporary fix because yes, they get a lot of spells, I haven't come up with a satisfactory solution for 7th and up level spells. On the flip side, most campaigns don't go that high already, so it's less of an issue. We're starting at level 2. I might move all spell casters to the warlock progression. We'll see.

    Paladins can be super useful, getting their stock of lay on hands back at every short rest, but it is somewhat balanced by the fact that spending hit dice on a short rest isn't a very good value proposition. As far as not getting as many hit dice back at levels past 12, that's as intended. There might be times where the adventuring party needs a down time day to rest and recuperate after an adventure. No big difference than between burning under half their hit dice and not getting them all back after a long rest as per the regular rules.

    Getting it to the table at all to play with was more important than figuring out how a character at level 13 works, at least at the start.

    The goal is to give the party fun things to do with their hit dice, balanced by the fact that hit dice are the daily resource they have to manage. Most days won't see them burning down to the quick, but every now and then there is the time sensitive "Oh shit we gotta get this done!" adventure that sees lots of big combat in a day and at that point they have to decide how to spend their resources. Players might be close to death and at that point it doesn't matter how many hit dice they have left, because if they don't land this hit to kill the big bad it doesn't matter, so better to spend that dice on advantage on the attack, or re-rolling the damage dice on a crit smite because you rolled 1s. Who knows what interesting situations the players might find themselves in.

    That's what I'm working on now, what kinds of situations may the players find themselves in, with the playstyle I use. Are these rules fun at the table? Will they actually get used? I think they will but playtesting will prove them out. While we're at low levels I'll also be digging into the spell lists and trying to figure out how high powered spells fit in. Wizards break everything it seems.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Sign In or Register to comment.