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[DnD 5E] You can't triple stamp a double stamp!

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Posts

  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    Thanks for the tips guys, good choices all around!

  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    edited February 7
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I'm playing a Tranquility Monk in a new campaign. The other players are an Open Hand Monk, a Shadow Monk, a Sun Soul Monk, and a Champion Fighter.

    Are there any neat Tranquility Monk multiclass tricks I could try, or should I just stick to one class?

    I'm preparing to also play a Tranquility Monk in my D&D game!

    Right now the trick he is using is I had him pick up Magic Initiate (Druid) for access to Magic Stone & Shillelagh (so all of his attacks are keyed off of Wisdom) as well as Goodberry.

    I'm also, after five levels in Tranquility Monk, steering him into Life Cleric. You certainly don't have to do the same but if you grab Goodberry via Magic Initiate and couple it with the Disciple of Life 1st-level feature of Life Clerics, each of your ten Goodberries can heal 4 hit-points (and sustain a creature for a day).

    And then you are basically Korin from Dragon Ball Z.

    Zonugal on
    2mw6ukw.jpg
    see317
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    For a warlock? I like Rod of the pact keeper (DMG).
    While holding this rod, you gain a bonus to spell attack rolls and to the saving throw DCs of your warlock spells. The bonus is determined by the rod’s rarity.

    In addition, you can regain 1 warlock spell slot as an action while holding the rod. You can’t use this property again until you finish a long rest.

    Notes: Bonus: Warlock Spell Attacks, Bonus: Warlock Spell Save DC, uncommon (+1), rare (+2), or very rare (+3), Warlock, Buff

    Regaining a spell slot is huge for a warlock, since even at 20 you've only got 4 (not counting your Arcanums). And the bonus to attack rolls is really nice too.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    ZonugalSleepElvenshaeTurambarwebguy20Nyht
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Yeah I totally forgot rod of the pact keeper, that's a pretty dope little power increase for a warlock.

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Yeah I totally forgot rod of the pact keeper, that's a pretty dope little power increase for a warlock.

    I misread it once and spent a session adding +1 to all my cantrip damage.
    Turns out, "Spell Attack" rolls are not the same as "Spell Damage" rolls. Oops.

    Made for a nasty surprise when the Grave Cleric did his Channel Divinity thing, then my warlock crit with an Eldritch Blast +charisma +rod damage, doubled dice for the crit, then doubled again for the Vulnerability.

    Said the GM "Are you sure that's a cantrip?"

    Even without that +1 damage though, that's a hard hit for a cantrip.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    SleepSmrtnik
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Yeah I totally forgot rod of the pact keeper, that's a pretty dope little power increase for a warlock.

    I misread it once and spent a session adding +1 to all my cantrip damage.
    Turns out, "Spell Attack" rolls are not the same as "Spell Damage" rolls. Oops.

    Made for a nasty surprise when the Grave Cleric did his Channel Divinity thing, then my warlock crit with an Eldritch Blast +charisma +rod damage, doubled dice for the crit, then doubled again for the Vulnerability.

    Said the GM "Are you sure that's a cantrip?"

    Even without that +1 damage though, that's a hard hit for a cantrip.

    I mean a crit with eldritch blast should rarely exceed 2d10+2d6(hex if you put it up)+cha mod (assuming agonizing blast) for a damage roll. Shooting on a vulnerable target that can still end up over 65 damage.


    Eldritch blast is weird cause unlike all other cantrips it forces multiple attack rolls at higher levels, so even at 5th level an eldritch blast crit is still only 2d10 base. Unlike something like firebolt which at level 5 crits for 4d10 base.

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Yeah I totally forgot rod of the pact keeper, that's a pretty dope little power increase for a warlock.

    I misread it once and spent a session adding +1 to all my cantrip damage.
    Turns out, "Spell Attack" rolls are not the same as "Spell Damage" rolls. Oops.

    Made for a nasty surprise when the Grave Cleric did his Channel Divinity thing, then my warlock crit with an Eldritch Blast +charisma +rod damage, doubled dice for the crit, then doubled again for the Vulnerability.

    Said the GM "Are you sure that's a cantrip?"

    Even without that +1 damage though, that's a hard hit for a cantrip.

    I mean a crit with eldritch blast should rarely exceed 2d10+2d6(hex if you put it up)+cha mod (assuming agonizing blast) for a damage roll. Shooting on a vulnerable target that can still end up over 65 damage.


    Eldritch blast is weird cause unlike all other cantrips it forces multiple attack rolls at higher levels, so even at 5th level an eldritch blast crit is still only 2d10 base. Unlike something like firebolt which at level 5 crits for 4d10 base.

    Yeah, we were rolling lvl 3 characters (GM was, perhaps, overly generous letting us pick out magic gear at such a level), so that was a pretty considerable nuke against the beast in question, especially after having us roll stats.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Sleep
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    there are very few items that change spell save DC, ROTPK does that, is also a supercharged pearl of power, and is a wand of the war mage. It's 3 solid items duct taped together.

    SleepElvenshaeIvelliusJustTee
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Yeah, Rod of the Pact Keeper is (at minimum) a Very Rare-quality item that gets to be an uncommon solely because it's for warlocks only, which isn't really how item rarity should actually work. If you're a warlock, it's the best uncommon item in the game, hands down.

    The spell save DC increase alone is nuts - I can only think of two other items off the top of my head that give you a spell save DC boost, and they're both Legendary. (Robe of the Archmage and Ioun Stone of Mastery - Robe does it directly, and the Stone does it indirectly by bumping your proficiency bonus by one, which is incidentally also an insane bonus to hand out).

    IvelliusJustTee
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Abbalah wrote: »
    Yeah, Rod of the Pact Keeper is (at minimum) a Very Rare-quality item that gets to be an uncommon solely because it's for warlocks only, which isn't really how item rarity should actually work. If you're a warlock, it's the best uncommon item in the game, hands down.

    The spell save DC increase alone is nuts - I can only think of two other items off the top of my head that give you a spell save DC boost, and they're both Legendary. (Robe of the Archmage and Ioun Stone of Mastery - Robe does it directly, and the Stone does it indirectly by bumping your proficiency bonus by one, which is incidentally also an insane bonus to hand out).

    Sure, but as a warlock you've sold your soul to some Power in exchange for a handful of spells. Least they could do is toss a rod into the deal for you.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Moridin889IvelliusJustTee
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    So what are generally considered the best magic items for each class?

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    I told my curse of strahd DM that I figured out what I want to do with the brown mold I collected earlier and she said "what?"

    and I sent her this

    eLp6tR4.png

    She said "I dont get it" and I said "look up what brown mold does"
    And I kept seeing "..." in the chat window, and then it would disappear and then it would reappear, and she said "I am very happy with this"

    For those who don't know:
    Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it. Its temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes the mold to instantly double in size.

    RingoSteelhawkwebguy20DarkPrimus
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    I am DMing a Curse of Strahd game, but currently taking a little break while the group plays the new Waterdeep adventure. We'll go back and forth every few sessions.

    In it, I play a gnome wizard who wants to be the next Elminster or equivalent "some day". Anywho, the DM for it wants to have my gnome build his own magical staff over the course of the adventure, as asked me for essentially "if your gnome could have a magic staff what did it be". At lvl 2 i specialized into school if invention from UA. So here is what i sent him and he seemed to like it:
    Ok, some thoughts, feel free to modify.

    Multiple "tiers", starting with something basic Gimble cobbles together and adds parts to over time. Feel free to rearrange these or alter whatever. Materials plus some gold, some downtime, some spell slot expenditure.

    Tier 1: Channeling Staff +1 to rolls on attack spells. Requires attunement. Wood, iron.

    Tier 2: t1 + x temp hp (recharges on long rest), x could be something like int modifer times wizard level. Or something you like better. Maybe that halved and upgrade at a later tier. Appears as a transparent bubble. Need to add "spellbound capacitor" to staff, copper, some gems (your choice), some rubber, a body part of appropriate CR creature that has electrical attacks.

    Tier 3: t2 + Gimble can use action to detonate the shield. Does force dmg equal to current shield temp hp to all targets in 15ft radius, half that in 30 ft radius (including to Gimble!). Every target hit is pushed back 5ft, Gimble is proned. Need to add "unstable isotope injector" to staff, some glass, different gems, body parts of an abberation.

    Tier 4: t3 + Gimble can use a reason to absorb into the staff a single target spell directly targeting him. He takes no effect from spell, and temp hp on staff goes up by spell level of the absorbed spell. Can do this y times per day (twice per long or short rest? More later?). Any temp HP over the x cap (defined in t1) are lost on long rest. "Weave Inverter" added to staff, different gems, gold worked by a specialist artisan, maybe something from a Nishruu (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Nishruu) or similar.

    Tier 5: t4 + when rolling on reckless casting table spend one spell slot lower (lvl 1 reckless become cantrips effectively). 5% chance the target becomes Gimble. "RN-G Booster" added to staff, need to melt down some luck affecting magic item.

    Thoughts?

    Additional bonuses that could come into play:
    - activation of shield explosion via bonus action "increasingly convenient button"
    - more + to got with spells
    - + to Gimble's DC
    - ability to use staff provided temp HP at some specific conversion rate to restore Gimble spell slots in between rests

    steam_sig.png
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Oh and the Wizard has con 10 and 14 AC from the school of Invention armor.

    steam_sig.png
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    So what are generally considered the best magic items for each class?

    Hard to say an overall best magic item. An item that is great for a combat encounter might not help at all for a more diplomatic encounter. Also, are you looking for specific levels of rarity? Rarer items are almost always going to be better.

    If you're looking for straight up murder hobo gear, you can't get much better than the Rod of Lordly Might. It's a veritable Swiss army knife of destruction.
    This rod has a flanged head, and it functions as a magic mace that grants a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. The rod has properties associated with six different buttons that are set in a row along the haft. It has three other properties as well, detailed below.

    Six Buttons. You can press one of the rod's six buttons as a bonus action. A button's effect lasts until you push a different button or until you push the same button again, which causes the rod to revert to its normal form.

    If you press button 1, the rod becomes a flame tongue, as a fiery blade sprouts from the end opposite the rod's flanged head (you choose the type of sword).

    If you press button 2, the rod's flanged head folds down and two crescent-shaped blades spring out, transforming the rod into a magic battleaxe that grants a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it.

    If you press button 3, the rod's flanged head folds down, a spear point springs from the rod's tip, and the rod's handle lengthens into a 6-foot haft, transforming the rod into a magic spear that grants a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it.

    If you press button 4, the rod transforms into a climbing pole up to 50 feet long, as you specify. In surfaces as hard as granite, a spike at the bottom and three hooks at the top anchor the pole. Horizontal bars 3 inches long fold out from the sides, 1 foot apart, forming a ladder. The pole can bear up to 4,000 pounds. More weight or lack of solid anchoring causes the rod to revert to its normal form.

    If you press button 5, the rod transforms into a handheld battering ram and grants its user a +10 bonus to Strength checks made to break through doors, barricades, and other barriers.

    If you press button 6, the rod assumes or remains in its normal form and indicates magnetic north. (Nothing happens if this function of the rod is used in a location that has no magnetic north.) The rod also gives you knowledge of your approximate depth beneath the ground or your height above it.

    Drain Life. When you hit a creature with a melee attack using the rod, you can force the target to make a DC 17 Constitution saving throw. On a failure, the target takes an extra 4d6 necrotic damage, and you regain a number of hit points equal to half that necrotic damage. This property can't be used again until the next dawn.

    Paralyze. When you hit a creature with a melee attack using the rod, you can force the target to make a DC 17 Strength saving throw. On a failure, the target is paralyzed for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on a success. This property can't be used again until the next dawn.

    Terrify. While holding the rod, you can use an action to force each creature you can see within 30 feet of you to make a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw. On a failure, a target is frightened of you for 1 minute. A frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. This property can't be used again until the next dawn.
    Any melee focused character would love this item, but it is legendary so don't expect it to be easy to find one.

    Some other rods that are fun, but less combat focused: Rod of Security
    While holding this rod, you can use an action to activate it. The rod then instantly transports you and up to 199 other willing creatures you can see to a paradise that exists in an extraplanar space. You choose the form that the paradise takes. It could be a tranquil garden, lovely glade, cheery tavern, immense palace, tropical island, fantastic carnival, or whatever else you can imagine. Regardless of its nature, the paradise contains enough water and food to sustain its visitors. Everything else that can be interacted with inside the extraplanar space can exist only there. For example, a flower picked from a garden in the paradise disappears if it is taken outside the extraplanar space.

    For each hour spent in the paradise, a visitor regains hit points as if it had spent 1 Hit Die. Also, creatures don't age while in the paradise, although time passes normally. Visitors can remain in the paradise for up to 200 days divided by the number of creatures present (round down).

    When the time runs out or you use an action to end it, all visitors reappear in the location they occupied when you activated the rod, or an unoccupied space nearest that location. The rod can't be used again until ten days have passed.

    Rod of Rulership
    You can use an action to present the rod and command obedience from each creature of your choice that you can see within 120 feet of you. Each target must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or be charmed by you for 8 hours. While charmed in this way, the creature regards you as its trusted leader. If harmed by you or your companions, or commanded to do something contrary to its nature, a target ceases to be charmed in this way. The rod can't be used again until the next dawn.
    In case you need to convince a local village to take up arms as your loyal army, but don't want to have to pay them for it.

    Of course, everyone will benefit from having a Bag of Holding, so much so that many GMs just give them out so they don't have to track encumbrance.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • GrobianGrobian What's on sale? Pliers!Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I'm playing a Tranquility Monk in a new campaign. The other players are an Open Hand Monk, a Shadow Monk, a Sun Soul Monk, and a Champion Fighter.

    Are there any neat Tranquility Monk multiclass tricks I could try, or should I just stick to one class?

    I'm preparing to also play a Tranquility Monk in my D&D game!

    Right now the trick he is using is I had him pick up Magic Initiate (Druid) for access to Magic Stone & Shillelagh (so all of his attacks are keyed off of Wisdom) as well as Goodberry.

    I'm also, after five levels in Tranquility Monk, steering him into Life Cleric. You certainly don't have to do the same but if you grab Goodberry via Magic Initiate and couple it with the Disciple of Life 1st-level feature of Life Clerics, each of your ten Goodberries can heal 4 hit-points (and sustain a creature for a day).

    And then you are basically Korin from Dragon Ball Z.

    Fwiw as a DM I wouldn't necessarily allow Disciple of Life to work on Goodberries. Disciple says "use a spell to heal" and the spell is just the creation of the berries to me.

    IBHz8.png1dUCx.png
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    Ivellius
  • GrobianGrobian What's on sale? Pliers!Registered User regular
    Sage Advice says it works, though:
    If I’m a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does
    the goodberry spell benefit from the feature? Yes. The
    Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4
    hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a
    1st-level spell slot.

    IBHz8.png1dUCx.png
    PoGo friend code: 7835 1672 4968
    Zonugal
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Sage Advice is so bad.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
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    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
    SleepNarbusDenadaSCREECH OF THE FARGitalianranmaMrVyngaard
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    I told my curse of strahd DM that I figured out what I want to do with the brown mold I collected earlier and she said "what?"

    and I sent her this

    eLp6tR4.png

    She said "I dont get it" and I said "look up what brown mold does"
    And I kept seeing "..." in the chat window, and then it would disappear and then it would reappear, and she said "I am very happy with this"

    For those who don't know:
    Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it. Its temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes the mold to instantly double in size.

    What is the benefit of having 6 flasks instead of just one? Seems wasteful. The idea is magnificent! But if you are looking to have the mold grow six times instead of once then, as a DM, I'd put a limit on that.

    Throwing subsequent flasks on separate turns? That, I'd allow.

  • IvelliusIvellius Registered User regular
    Grobian wrote: »
    Sage Advice says it works, though:

    I knew that and still agree that it shouldn't work. Eating a Goodberry doesn't line up with the time defined of "whenever you use a a spell slot."

    Me elsewhere:
    Steam, various fora: Ivellius
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  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Ivellius wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Sage Advice says it works, though:

    I knew that and still agree that it shouldn't work. Eating a Goodberry doesn't line up with the time defined of "whenever you use a a spell slot."

    Eh. That's not actually the time defined, though. The trigger is "whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature". Using a spell to make a magic doodad that restores hit points to a creature fits that description even if the actual HP gain is delayed from the time of spellcasting. I mean, consider a healing spell that works like Sacred Flame: You cast the spell and light up your hand, and then sometime later you can use an action to touch someone and heal them - should that spell work with Disciple of Life? It's functionally got the same relationship to the expenditure of the spell slot as Goodberry.

    People get hung up on Goodberry+Disciple not because the rules don't let it work, or even because it's actually too good - it just 'feels' like an exploit because you're starting with a small number and making it several times bigger. But it's not! It's not even the most powerful thing to do with Disciple of Life - consider that while Goodberry heals 1 person for 10 and Disciple boosts that to 40, Disciple+Healing Spirit heals everyone for 10d6+40 for only a marginally larger cost (2nd-level slot instead of 1st). Instead of getting 30 HP out of disciple, you're getting 40 HP times the number of people you're able to heal - easily 3-5 times the return on a spell that's already got like 12 times the base return. And spirit scales (in both base healing AND Disciple boost) and spirit can be used in combat; Goodberry can't do either of those things.

    And it's not just a healing spirit problem, either - any spell that breaks its healing up into multiple packets interacts that way (Notably, Aura of Life and Aura of Vitality), and most have a much more efficient interaction with Disciple than Goodberry does. I don't think there's any reason to be draconian about the interaction; there's no rules justification for why it doesn't work (aside from 'I don't like it') and there's no game balance reason to disallow it. It's a cute trick, and pretty good, but it's not even in the top 5 most powerful ways to use Disciple, it's just the one you get access to first. At best, shutting it down just narrows build variety by forcing someone who wants to leverage Disciple of Life to play a Druid/Paladin/Bard with a Cleric dip instead of letting them play a Cleric with a feat, which leaves you in the same place you started in except now you've got a counterintuitive situation where all the best Life Clerics are actually Druids instead of Clerics - probably not a net gain.

    italianranma
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Semi related to the Goodberry discussion...
    A Sorcerer with Draconic Bloodline origin casts Dragon's Breath on a party member (of a like elemental type to the bloodline).
    When the party member uses the effect, does it gain the Charisma bonus damage from Elemental Affinity?

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    edited February 8
    see317 wrote: »
    Semi related to the Goodberry discussion...
    A Sorcerer with Draconic Bloodline origin casts Dragon's Breath on a party member (of a like elemental type to the bloodline).
    When the party member uses the effect, does it gain the Charisma bonus damage from Elemental Affinity?
    No, the dragon bloodline feature applies to spells you cast that deal damage. Dragon's Breath doesn't deal damage, it gives the target the ability to deal damage. They don't have your CHA mod to give the bonus in the first place, even.

    Here's a corollary question, is the Dragon's Breath action used by the target spell damage at all? I'd say it probably is, even though breath weapons are not spells.

    Xagar on
    ZonugalMrVyngaard
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Abbalah wrote: »
    Ivellius wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Sage Advice says it works, though:

    I knew that and still agree that it shouldn't work. Eating a Goodberry doesn't line up with the time defined of "whenever you use a a spell slot."

    Eh. That's not actually the time defined, though. The trigger is "whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature".

    What if you summoned a creature that has either CLW as a spell-like ability or actual spell, or some other healing ability? Are the creature's spells / abilities enhanced?

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  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Abbalah wrote: »
    Ivellius wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Sage Advice says it works, though:

    I knew that and still agree that it shouldn't work. Eating a Goodberry doesn't line up with the time defined of "whenever you use a a spell slot."

    Eh. That's not actually the time defined, though. The trigger is "whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature".

    What if you summoned a creature that has either CLW as a spell-like ability or actual spell, or some other healing ability? Are the creature's spells / abilities enhanced?

    No, they are their own creature and don't have your feature that increases healing.

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Xagar wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Abbalah wrote: »
    Ivellius wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Sage Advice says it works, though:

    I knew that and still agree that it shouldn't work. Eating a Goodberry doesn't line up with the time defined of "whenever you use a a spell slot."

    Eh. That's not actually the time defined, though. The trigger is "whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature".

    What if you summoned a creature that has either CLW as a spell-like ability or actual spell, or some other healing ability? Are the creature's spells / abilities enhanced?

    No, they are their own creature and don't have your feature that increases healing.

    But, Goodberries aren't even creatures at all, so they can't have your class features that increase healing.

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited February 8
    Doesnt make them not a summon.

    Goodberry should not get +3. Both for balance and thematics/logic.

    10 HP for a forst level slot is already a lot. 40 is absurd.

    Alternatively only the first goodberry that you consume gets the +3

    Goumindong on
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    ElvenshaeNarbusMrVyngaard
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I told my curse of strahd DM that I figured out what I want to do with the brown mold I collected earlier and she said "what?"

    and I sent her this

    eLp6tR4.png

    She said "I dont get it" and I said "look up what brown mold does"
    And I kept seeing "..." in the chat window, and then it would disappear and then it would reappear, and she said "I am very happy with this"

    For those who don't know:
    Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it. Its temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes the mold to instantly double in size.

    What is the benefit of having 6 flasks instead of just one? Seems wasteful. The idea is magnificent! But if you are looking to have the mold grow six times instead of once then, as a DM, I'd put a limit on that.

    Throwing subsequent flasks on separate turns? That, I'd allow.

    She'll let it multiply 3 times, and on the next round I cast wall of fire from a safe distance

  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    Do you ever come up on the start of a campaign you expected to never get off the ground and it's just too surreal to take seriously?

    Like I'm two Sundays from this game and ill believe it when it happens

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    SleepIvelliusMrVyngaard
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Xagar wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Abbalah wrote: »
    Ivellius wrote: »
    Grobian wrote: »
    Sage Advice says it works, though:

    I knew that and still agree that it shouldn't work. Eating a Goodberry doesn't line up with the time defined of "whenever you use a a spell slot."

    Eh. That's not actually the time defined, though. The trigger is "whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature".

    What if you summoned a creature that has either CLW as a spell-like ability or actual spell, or some other healing ability? Are the creature's spells / abilities enhanced?

    No, they are their own creature and don't have your feature that increases healing.

    But, Goodberries aren't even creatures at all, so they can't have your class features that increase healing.

    I didn't opine on Goodberries yet, but I would say that that's correct - Goodberry summons objects that heal, it's not a direct healing spell. I read the feature to only affect those.

    Some simple clarifying text would go a long way here, one way or the other, e.g. "This feature affects healing caused by objects and creatures that you create through 1st spells."

    Ivellius
  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Doesnt make them not a summon.

    Goodberry should not get +3. Both for balance and thematics/logic.

    Care to expand on this?

    2mw6ukw.jpg
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    I mean there's no justification whatsoever for 'only the first goodberry gets the bonus' - rider text that limits stat bonuses to 1 'instance' per spell is common, but nothing like it is present here. You could build an argument based on the text that the bonus either applies or doesn't apply, but 'the bonus applies, but only once' is a straight-up houserule.

    Again, though: why force the bonus not to apply? There's no clear reason it shouldn't and the designers have come out and said that it does, so if you're going to deviate from that there should be a reason. What's the goal? If the goal is to limit the most abusively powerful ways of healing people, there's a bunch of other stuff that's way more of a balance concern than a feat that lets you get good value out of an otherwise marginally useful low-level out-of-combat healing spell, so it's hard to argue that we're shutting goodberry down for balance reasons if we're not also banning Healing Spirit and screwing with the Aura spells and so on. So what's the reason?

    ZonugalNyht
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    I mean, if I was ever to run 5e I would allow pretty much any kind of arbitrage-esque balance-related stuff my players wanted to do, because that's fun and the players get to feel like badasses and since I'm the DM I can do literally anything I want to ensure the game remains challenging (or not if they want a power fantasy).

    SleepTynnanSmrtnikElvenshaeNipsCarnarvonGrobianNyhtJustTee
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited February 8
    Eh i'm either way on it.

    The whole point of disallowing the interaction is so that folks aren't just dipping life cleric to use druid spells more effectively. Allowing it to happen definitely creates the situation where you can dip cleric for 1 level then go circle of the Sheppard druid with an incentive to stay druid after that (unicorn spirit) to create the best healer.

    However the bonus is kinda negligible in that build cause after about level 8 they are already a bonkers healer because healing word becomes a mass cure light wounds so what are we really trying to prevent by implementing the restriction... even without the bonus from disciple of life the Shepard druid is the better healer. Allowing your cleric with a feat to use it just makes their feat investment more of a payoff, and restricting it doesn't really make anything balance out.

    From a more metaphysical vantage on why to ban it for some spells and not others:

    The berries are a thing you created with a spell. The spell isn't healing, the spell is bringing items into existence.

    The healing spirit is a thing you summon. The spell is summoning a spirit not healing things

    The auras are spells that do healing directly on their own it creates no intermediary you aren't summoning a thing that heals or creating an item that heals, you just exude the healing or protective energy till your concentration breaks, that's the spell.

    For instance if the cleric casts conjure celestial and summons a couatl that couatl's cure spells wouldn't benefit from disciple of life.

    Sleep on
    ElvenshaeIvellius
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Eh i'm either way on it.

    The whole point of disallowing the interaction is so that folks aren't just dipping life cleric to use druid spells more effectively. Allowing it to happen definitely creates the situation where you can dip cleric for 1 level then go circle of the Sheppard druid with an incentive to stay druid after that (unicorn spirit) to create the best healer.

    I think the effect here is basically the opposite: You can pick up Goodberry with Magic Initiate, so by donking the goodberry/life cleric interaction specifically, you are stopping your hypothetical healer player from playing straight cleric with the Goodberry feat, and instead incentivizing them to do exactly what what you describe: Take a 1-level Cleric dip and then level as a druid/lore bard instead, because life cleric still applies to Healing Spirit and/or Aura of Vitality etc.

    Unless you decide that it doesn't, but if someone's going to go so far as to arbitrarily make Disciple of Life not apply to half a dozen different spells because they think it's too good with all of them, then ultimately it sounds like that person's problem is with Disciple of Life, not any particular spell, and they'd be better served by changing Disciple of Life directly rather than trying to rules-lawyer it into not applying anywhere it might matter on a spell-by-spell basis.

    But nobody wants to do that because nobody actually thinks Disciple of Life itself is overpowered or needs to be nerfed, which just circles us back around to 'why are we trying to fuck with a thoroughly average class feature just because it creates a satisfying but non-disruptive A/B combo with a specific class of spells?'

    Let people make their senzu beans. Your game's not gonna break because a player figured out how to give the party pseudo-short rests for cheap. They'll get an extra encounter or two in before they have to stop and rest to recharge spell slots and class features anyway, and you'll have that many fewer rests breaking up the flow of your dungeon. Everybody wins!

    ZonugalitalianranmaNyht
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    edited February 8
    EDIT: Maybe that post needed more time in the oven.

    I think having yet another discussion about balance issues is kinda pointless, but I am interested in talking about how feats that give bonuses apply to buffs and summons and such.

    Xagar on
  • RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Or just "Ron" Registered User regular
    So with this cheat is healing spirit 10d6 + 40 for a second level spell slot? Because mein gott.

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited February 8
    Honestly healing spirit is the bigger problem. Like if you think I'm not allowing it to work on goodberry, but i'm gonna let it work on healing spirit I gotta question your reasoning abilities. I'd generally say if you're not letting it work for good berry, healing spirit should be right out for the exact same reasoning (the spell is summoning a thing that does healing, not directly healing on its own). Even more concretely in the healing spirit instance as it is a straight up conjuration spell that summons a spirit that does healing. Like using conjure celestial, summoning a cuoatl, and having it use its cure spells.

    The auras don't seem like they should run afoul, but no matter how you're getting at them you've gotta split between wisdom and charisma just to hit the multiclass requirements, if you're on a point buy that means you're gonna have a weaker character for it which dissuades use of the combo.

    Also messing with rests like that, so that the party never takes a short rest, is great for your daily spell rechargers, but it leaves your short rest rechargers (fighters monks warlocks) high and dry with nothing to use after 2 to 3 encounters at best. With those 2 to 3 encounters being mostly boring resource conservation snoozfests.

    Also lookin at the spell list there are exactly 2 healing spells where this can be an issue, where the healing isn't a direct immediate result of a spell cast. Goodberry and healing spirit

    Sleep on
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    So with this cheat is healing spirit 10d6 + 40 for a second level spell slot? Because mein gott.

    For each person, yeah. 20d6+50 if you cast it out of a level 3 slot, in case you for some reason need to heal every party member for ~120 with a level 3 spell.

    Of course, if you decide that Disciple of Life doesn't work for that either, then the same level 3 spirit only heals everyone for about 70 each, likely full-healing anybody below level 10 or so, so perhaps Disciple of Life isn't the problem there.

    Elvenshae
  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    I honestly don't have too much a problem with Disciple of Life making Life Clerics really good at healing.

    It's healing, an activity not a lot of players really enjoy fulfilling.

    My character is a 'Way of Tranquility' Monk 5/'Life' Cleric X, so I built him to be a dedicated healer.

    2mw6ukw.jpg
    IvelliusSCREECH OF THE FARGMoridin889Nyhtoverride367
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