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[DnD 5E] You can't triple stamp a double stamp!

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Posts

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Since I mentioned minis earlier, can I say how the 5E WotC minis kinda annoy me with their liberal interpretations of sizes larger than Medium? I got a wyvern yesterday because it looks cool, but it dwarfs the Large-sized base it came with. Similarly, many of the giants look like they should be Gargantuan.

    Similarly, I bought two "Huge" female giants from Reaper minis recently and discovered that they were a good bit smaller than I expected, with the WotC giant minis being nearly twice the size. Now I'm not certain what to do with them.

    Giant children? There is some in SKT.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 25
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Since I mentioned minis earlier, can I say how the 5E WotC minis kinda annoy me with their liberal interpretations of sizes larger than Medium? I got a wyvern yesterday because it looks cool, but it dwarfs the Large-sized base it came with. Similarly, many of the giants look like they should be Gargantuan.

    Similarly, I bought two "Huge" female giants from Reaper minis recently and discovered that they were a good bit smaller than I expected, with the WotC giant minis being nearly twice the size. Now I'm not certain what to do with them.

    Giant children? There is some in SKT.

    Uhh, they're too "developed" for that...

    lwq492yfuhzg.jpg

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  • GlalGlal Registered User regular
    Glue a small magnifying glass on them.

    Elvenshae
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Since I mentioned minis earlier, can I say how the 5E WotC minis kinda annoy me with their liberal interpretations of sizes larger than Medium? I got a wyvern yesterday because it looks cool, but it dwarfs the Large-sized base it came with. Similarly, many of the giants look like they should be Gargantuan.

    Similarly, I bought two "Huge" female giants from Reaper minis recently and discovered that they were a good bit smaller than I expected, with the WotC giant minis being nearly twice the size. Now I'm not certain what to do with them.

    I feel like the wotc giant minis are about right for their size

    its hard to convey through description just how goddamned big the giants are, cloud giants are 2 stories tall and could throw a car

    Sleep
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Since I mentioned minis earlier, can I say how the 5E WotC minis kinda annoy me with their liberal interpretations of sizes larger than Medium? I got a wyvern yesterday because it looks cool, but it dwarfs the Large-sized base it came with. Similarly, many of the giants look like they should be Gargantuan.

    Similarly, I bought two "Huge" female giants from Reaper minis recently and discovered that they were a good bit smaller than I expected, with the WotC giant minis being nearly twice the size. Now I'm not certain what to do with them.

    Giant children? There is some in SKT.

    Uhh, they're too "developed" for that...

    lwq492yfuhzg.jpg

    Errr my 12yo niece is that "developed" and she's half her father's height.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Since I mentioned minis earlier, can I say how the 5E WotC minis kinda annoy me with their liberal interpretations of sizes larger than Medium? I got a wyvern yesterday because it looks cool, but it dwarfs the Large-sized base it came with. Similarly, many of the giants look like they should be Gargantuan.

    Similarly, I bought two "Huge" female giants from Reaper minis recently and discovered that they were a good bit smaller than I expected, with the WotC giant minis being nearly twice the size. Now I'm not certain what to do with them.

    I feel like the wotc giant minis are about right for their size

    its hard to convey through description just how goddamned big the giants are, cloud giants are 2 stories tall and could throw a car

    Those are massive from their 3rd edition heights. Like Hill Giants used to be around 10' tall. That is still really really huge but now they're crazy.

    Also googling apparently they were pretty big in 2nd as well. I'm not kinda curious how it's changed over the years.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited August 25
    in storm kings thunder the sorcerer got nabbed by the cloud giant children, who had a doll house that was almost the right size, they dressed her in doll clothes and made her play tea time

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    So I went and did my first AL game yesterday at Fanexpo in toronto, and high points for the module included playing up a big, good natured paladin (who I named Ched Bar because these are actual random names you can generate), seeing some people trying RPG's for the first time... and literally dragging the ranger along on the adventure (he was really determined to break into a bar to get some booze).

    Oh also I got to do a powerstrike GWM cleave, wherein the second zombie took more damage then the first and prompted me to suggest that the first zombie (a little girl) had one of those hotwheels track accelerators in her body much to the amusement of the GM.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    SteelhawkRhesus PositiveElvenshae
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Since I mentioned minis earlier, can I say how the 5E WotC minis kinda annoy me with their liberal interpretations of sizes larger than Medium? I got a wyvern yesterday because it looks cool, but it dwarfs the Large-sized base it came with. Similarly, many of the giants look like they should be Gargantuan.

    Similarly, I bought two "Huge" female giants from Reaper minis recently and discovered that they were a good bit smaller than I expected, with the WotC giant minis being nearly twice the size. Now I'm not certain what to do with them.

    I feel like the wotc giant minis are about right for their size

    its hard to convey through description just how goddamned big the giants are, cloud giants are 2 stories tall and could throw a car

    It feels like with 5E they really decided to change the scale of Large and bigger minis. Before they were more constrained by their base, whereas now the base (which represents their size in-game) has little relation to the size of many minis. It's even more apparent comparing a 4E young dragon mini with a 5E one.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    So I'm planning my next campaign and want to heavily feature yuan-ti. The yuan-ti all have access to Suggestion, so now I'm trying to figure out how to best have them use it against PCs. Problem is, it needs to be a "reasonable" suggestion, and I'm sure different players would have different ideas of what is "reasonable".

    So, of these, which Suggestions sound reasonable, and which wouldn't fly?

    - "It's noisy out here and your wizard friend needs to concentrate. You should cast Silence near him."
    - "The next time you enter combat you should drop prone to give your ranger friend a clearer shot."
    - "You should use your longbow instead of your sword".
    - "Enemies can ambush from behind. Next time you enter combat you should go look behind your allies for enemies approaching from behind."
    - "I don't think your allies truly appreciate your magical power. I think you should use your strongest spell on that lone goblin over there to show them how powerful you are."
    - "It's dangerous here! Follow me to safety."

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    For traditional levels of power for Suggestion in D&D?

    All of them.

    ElvenshaeSteelhawkwebguy20TynnanSmrtniksee317override367DecatusDaenrisMrVyngaardAnialosIvellius
  • AustinP0027AustinP0027 Registered User regular
    The only one that seems like it might be borderline is the "Cast Silence" one.

    In general, you would think that party members would know that Silence to their own Wizard is (potentially) deadly for the party, so that seems like it would be a bit unreasonable for them to take an action that they associate with potential party death.

    The rest all sound fine, as they are simple things you are pairing with "This will help you live!" and they don't contradict that.

    Ivellius
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    - "You should use your longbow instead of your sword. Hand me your sword while you get your longbow ready".

    This is two suggestions.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Two more:

    - "You should stir the contents of this vial into the food you're cooking. It's very flavorful!"
    - "If you see a door marked with a skull and crossbones symbol you should rush in right away!"

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  • KadokenKadoken see what me tell you, seen Registered User regular
    "I have this bridge to sell you and I think it's a very good investment!"

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
    Hexmage-PAFryZonugalwebguy20TynnanAnialos
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    What's that magic item called that lets you change a letter in a spell's name?

    Because I want to play somebody that can cast Cause Hounds.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    Another Suggestion:

    - "Go to Waterdeep. It's more comfortable there!" The PC is in Chult at the moment.
    - "It's dangerous here. Flee from this battle!"
    - "Your fighter ally is a traitor! Keep him still with Hold Person as long as you can so I can incapacitate him for you."
    - "Come listen to my eight hour recruitment drive presentation!"

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  • KadokenKadoken see what me tell you, seen Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    Are these Yuan-Ti the kidnap folk type to turn them into more Yuan-Ti?

    Because they kind of sound like a riot

    Also until recently I thought all Yuan-Ti were nagas.

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    Hexmage-PA
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    - "Your fighter ally is a traitor! Keep him still with Hold Person as long as you can so I can incapacitate him for you."

    Ramp up the irony on this one.

    "Your fighter ally has been victim to magical manipulation. Keep him still with Hold Person as long as you can so I can incapacitate him for you."

    If it isn't the first group of Yuan-Ti they've encountered it becomes even more plausible!

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Are these Yuan-Ti the kidnap folk type to turn them into more Yuan-Ti?

    Because they kind of sound like a riot

    Also until recently I thought all Yuan-Ti were nagas.

    Yeah, I didn't realize it before, but there's lots of opportunities for trickery with the yuan-ti. As far as I can tell Suggestion doesn't let the target know it was magically influenced, so a yuan-ti pureblood could probably just stroll into a village and use Suggestion to tell the community's leader "you should advise your people to work with the yuan-ti rather than oppose them". Then even after the spell ends the community leader thinks he agreed with the idea of his own free will and may stick with it. The pureblood could even be a transformed member of the village!

    The transformation ritual into a yuan-ti pureblood is detailed in Tomb of Annihilation's Fane of the Night Serpent chapter. It doesn't require consent, but may be fatal as it bestows 1d6 levels of exhaustion.

    EDIT: BTW, Volo's Guide to Monsters actually sets up nagas as enemies of the yuan-ti who helped destroy the first yuan-ti empire alongside dragons. No other details are given, though.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Old rules, like 3.x era, were that if you succeeded at a saving throw you knew something was up. Otherwise, yeah.

  • AustinP0027AustinP0027 Registered User regular
    Yeah I was just looking the spell up because I was surprised it didn't have that, and sure enough, it doesn't.

    I know there are other spells in 5e that still have it, so it's a little surprising that a save doesn't let you know something was happening here.

  • TynnanTynnan seldom correct, never unsure Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    So I'm planning my next campaign and want to heavily feature yuan-ti. The yuan-ti all have access to Suggestion, so now I'm trying to figure out how to best have them use it against PCs. Problem is, it needs to be a "reasonable" suggestion, and I'm sure different players would have different ideas of what is "reasonable".

    So, of these, which Suggestions sound reasonable, and which wouldn't fly?

    - "It's noisy out here and your wizard friend needs to concentrate. You should cast Silence near him."
    - "The next time you enter combat you should drop prone to give your ranger friend a clearer shot."
    - "You should use your longbow instead of your sword".
    - "Enemies can ambush from behind. Next time you enter combat you should go look behind your allies for enemies approaching from behind."
    - "I don't think your allies truly appreciate your magical power. I think you should use your strongest spell on that lone goblin over there to show them how powerful you are."
    - "It's dangerous here! Follow me to safety."

    Will this be taking place in Chult? You could also have the Suggester establish credibility by having the players bet on certain dino racers in Port Nyanzaru, or give them some other low-stakes "win" before turning the tables on them later.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    For traditional levels of power for Suggestion in D&D?

    All of them.

    Keep in mind, things should be consistent in that it works the same for players too.

    My old DM got mad at me when i cast it on a spellcaster in a tomb that was behind a line of beefy minions telling him "the tomb feels really stuffy and you want to get some fresh air from outside" to make him get out of his protected position and also eat opportunity attacks from us as he strolled past.

    He said he'd let me do it that one time only and never again.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I was more surprised it was pushed to 2nd level. That level does start the "Save or Suck it!" spell levels but typically with continual saves to break the effect. Not hours of irrelevance.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    My old DM got mad at me when i cast it on a spellcaster in a tomb that was behind a line of beefy minions telling him "the tomb feels really stuffy and you want to get some fresh air from outside" to make him get out of his protected position and also eat opportunity attacks from us as he strolled past.

    He said he'd let me do it that one time only and never again.

    That's where the subjectivity of "reasonable" comes in. The spellcaster could have decided the request was unreasonable because he'd have to stroll by multiple enemies.

    Also, Suggestion states "If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends."

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    So I'm planning my next campaign and want to heavily feature yuan-ti. The yuan-ti all have access to Suggestion, so now I'm trying to figure out how to best have them use it against PCs. Problem is, it needs to be a "reasonable" suggestion, and I'm sure different players would have different ideas of what is "reasonable".

    So, of these, which Suggestions sound reasonable, and which wouldn't fly?

    - "It's noisy out here and your wizard friend needs to concentrate. You should cast Silence near him."
    - "The next time you enter combat you should drop prone to give your ranger friend a clearer shot."
    - "You should use your longbow instead of your sword".
    - "Enemies can ambush from behind. Next time you enter combat you should go look behind your allies for enemies approaching from behind."
    - "I don't think your allies truly appreciate your magical power. I think you should use your strongest spell on that lone goblin over there to show them how powerful you are."
    - "It's dangerous here! Follow me to safety."

    “These enemies are weak. You dont need to waste and spell slots on them”

    wbBv3fj.png
  • NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    Re: Suggestion. Even with buy-in from the players, Suggestion is one of the most frustrating spells a DM can break out. Anecdotally, it causes a lot of action breaks, if not outright fights, as players and DMs argue back and forth over "reasonable". All mind control spells have this issue, and it's why I almost universally use them on NPCs, never PCs.

    If you're going to use it, then I'd use "reasonable" to mean something that it is unlikely the player would do, but not impossible. If you have your players do the "bond/ideal/flaw" thing then it'll be easier to set these up. Maybe rework Suggestion so that the save DC is based on the "reasonableness" of the request. "He says drop your sword, that's a bit out there for your character, give me a DC 10 wisdom save, here".

    Mostly, though, I'd save it for influencing NPCs.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    Narbus wrote: »
    Re: Suggestion. Even with buy-in from the players, Suggestion is one of the most frustrating spells a DM can break out. Anecdotally, it causes a lot of action breaks, if not outright fights, as players and DMs argue back and forth over "reasonable". All mind control spells have this issue, and it's why I almost universally use them on NPCs, never PCs.

    If you're going to use it, then I'd use "reasonable" to mean something that it is unlikely the player would do, but not impossible. If you have your players do the "bond/ideal/flaw" thing then it'll be easier to set these up. Maybe rework Suggestion so that the save DC is based on the "reasonableness" of the request. "He says drop your sword, that's a bit out there for your character, give me a DC 10 wisdom save, here".

    Mostly, though, I'd save it for influencing NPCs.

    Tying it to bonds, ideals, and flaws is an interesting idea.

    I think in general I'd use Suggestion as if it were a version of Command where you have to offer some kind of justification for why they should do what they're told ("I've got a bag of gold to give you. Drop your sword so you can catch it when I toss it to you."). Major villains would use it in more devious ways.

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  • NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    Re: Suggestion. Even with buy-in from the players, Suggestion is one of the most frustrating spells a DM can break out. Anecdotally, it causes a lot of action breaks, if not outright fights, as players and DMs argue back and forth over "reasonable". All mind control spells have this issue, and it's why I almost universally use them on NPCs, never PCs.

    If you're going to use it, then I'd use "reasonable" to mean something that it is unlikely the player would do, but not impossible. If you have your players do the "bond/ideal/flaw" thing then it'll be easier to set these up. Maybe rework Suggestion so that the save DC is based on the "reasonableness" of the request. "He says drop your sword, that's a bit out there for your character, give me a DC 10 wisdom save, here".

    Mostly, though, I'd save it for influencing NPCs.

    Tying it to bonds, ideals, and flaws is an interesting idea.

    I think in general I'd use Suggestion as if it were a version of Command where you have to offer some kind of justification for why they should do what they're told ("I've got a bag of gold to give you. Drop your sword so you can catch it when I toss it to you."). Major villains would use it in more devious ways.

    Same issue with forcing players to do things. You're almost 100% certain to get a lot of pushback on that and bring the game to a screeching halt Everytime a snakeboy makes eyes at someone. The paladin wouldn't find it reasonable to drop his ancestral sword, it's been in his family for seven generations. The monk took a vow of poverty, he wouldn't disarm himself for gold. Or there's the classic, and irrefutable, they're in the middle of a fight with snake monsters is it really reasonable that any of them would drop their weapon?

    The problem with mind control spells is that they steal agency in a way that's basically guaranteed to rub players the wrong way.

    If you're going to insist on using mind control on your players, then I'd say the best way to do it is to manipulate the bond/flaw/ideal system. Suggestion can either amplify one of the player's BFIs meaning the player starts playing that single category up hard, or it adds a BFI that the player has to take into account, but it can't directly contradict an existing one.

    There'll be a bit of metagaming on your part, but it still gives the player agency and it won't result in a lot of "my ranger was raised in these woods he knows what horsefeather mushrooms are he's not going to eat one, no that ridiculous!" fights.

  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    What's that magic item called that lets you change a letter in a spell's name?

    Because I want to play somebody that can cast Cause Hounds.

    Magic Missive
    Fish
    Dancing Wights
    Mage Band
    Miner Illusion
    Thunderclam
    Chart Person
    Feather Wall
    Healing Worm
    Searing Smile
    Sheep
    Wife Transference
    Plank Growth
    Speak With Deaf
    Share the Dying
    Flesh to Scone
    OK, that's out of my system now

    AustinP0027hlprmnkyTynnanKadokenNipsNerdsamwich ElvenshaeFryMrVyngaard
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    Narbus wrote: »
    The problem with mind control spells is that they steal agency in a way that's basically guaranteed to rub players the wrong way.

    I want the villains to rub the players the wrong way. After they've fought some yuan-ti and been affected by Suggestion they can begin trying to develop countermeasures against it. I will try to stick to the Bonds/Ideals/Flaws examples, though.

    Suggestion only works if the target can hear the caster, for one thing, so maybe the PCs could plug their ears when fighting yuan-ti in the same way that they can avert their gaze when fighting a medusa. Eventually they might find special items that temporarily give them advantage on Wisdom saves or make them immune to being charmed. Eventually the yuan-ti stop using Suggestion because they know the PCs might have countermeasures against it already prepared.

    In general I want more situations in my next campaign where the players have to do advance recon or research to figure out how to overcome something.

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  • NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    The villains should rub the characters the wrong way, in a character driven way. What's incredibly likely going to happen here is that the DM starts rubbing the players the wrong way, in a metagaming way.

    Everything I've been talking about has been in support of the fact that Suggestion brings the game to an immediate halt as players start pushing back on "reasonable", because players who are invested in their characters aren't happy when a DM just informs them of what the character is doing.

    Elvenshae
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Man I always thank the heavens my players are awesome. If I tell them they are mind controlled they lean into it immediately until they make their save. None of us has time to fight over it.

    KadokenSmrtnikNipswebguy20BullheadZonugalAnialosIvellius
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    In the same way that a Nat 20 on a Persuasion check is treated like literal mind control, the power level of Suggestion is often overblown. Suggestion is basically "These aren't the droids you're looking for," or "You don't want to sell me any death sticks."

    Using it in the middle of a fight is the wrong time to use it, because that's a time when very little other than "keep fighting the obvious enemy" is going to be reasonable. A yuan-ti is going to use Suggestion to avoid a fight in the first place or to set up an ambush or something.

    Personally I hate that monsters have spell lists and that those spell lists contain the same spells that PCs have. I also hate the wording of a lot of spells. That being said you can totally make Suggestion work and the right players will Yes And to make the experience fun and flavorful for everyone.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Suggestion is pretty solidly a non combat spell.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited August 26
    My thoughts on mind control are that any possible effect could effectively be caused by something other than mind control.

    Compare:

    - DC 15 Wis save or be magically compelled to drop your sword.
    - DC 15 Str save or be unable to hold onto your sword as it magically doubles in weight.

    Similarly:

    - DC 15 Wis save or be magically compelled to move 15 feet away.
    - DC 15 Str save or be pushed 15 feet away by wind.

    In my second pair of examples, the save against being compelled to move is similar to existing fear effects. I wouldn't tolerate someone saying that their PC is too brave to be scared into moving despite failing their save.

    Suggestion's weakness is that it includes "reasonableness" as a metric despite the example it gives (a knight giving away their horse) itself likely seeming unreasonable to many.

    If the Wis save against being forced to move was triggered by a snake with a "Ophidophobia" ability and the player protested saying "my character loves snakes, he'd never run from a snake" I'd reply with "dude, this is one scary-ass magic snake".

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited August 27
    I haven't posted here in a long time, wanted to see if anybody was having interesting Pathfinder 2 discussions. PM me if anybody has any questions or wants to talk about that game, because it's kind of like 4E level of design simplicity but without the homogenized classes and the core chassis of the game is an absolute marvel that allows it to be as deep and wide with options as you expect from Pathfinder but the how of doing things remains remarkably simple.

    As for D&D, anybody run Curse of Strahd, and if so, how'd it go when your party ran into (spoilers for Curse of Strahd late game)
    that Arcanaloth in the magic darkness? Going into what ended up being our final session of a Strahd game, I told my friends "Hey if you guys TPK here I promise it's not because I'm ready to start running the Pathfinder 2 AP. =P"

    Near as I could tell, if they dumb lucked into choosing to go down the left corridor first and taking out the flameskulls behind the arrow slits, maybe they don't wipe to the Arcanaloth, but since they went right first and ended up going into the main room with him first and eating a chain lightning into a couple fireballs from the Flameskulls it was over before they could even do a thing. They were level 9, which is apparently what they're meant to be at that part of the module. I used exp because I hate milestones, but level 9 is what the module said it expected them to be for Amber Temple.

    At least the druid healer accepted a couple dark gifts first and failed the CHA save, turning evil and betraying the party at the last minute. At least gave it an interesting horror vibe for the "bad ending" of the campaign.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    My group got there at level 8. They had Kasimir with them who put up a wall so they could fight out of LoS of the Arcanoloth vs the skulls. Then they all ran away, had a rest elsewhere, and found a way into the base at the back of the statue.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited August 27
    Yeah, no Kasimir for my party, because
    Rudolph Van Richten had his tiger wipe out everybody at that camp, and I had them find Kasimir's body outside the Amber Temple, where he'd try to get there alone.

    But even if my party had done what it sounds like yours did, I'd probably have made the Arcanaloth prepare even more horrible stuff for them when they returned since he knew they'd be coming back.

    Joshmvii on
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