It's possible, but entering the realm of diminishing returns. I feel like most people could just learn electrics normally faster than learning a new way of holding the controller.
The more I think about this, the more I'm fine with it. Valle was making an argument about how things that require excellent execution and practice are special and set skilled players apart. We get hype over difficult things because we know how tricky they were to pull off. He feels like lowering that bar makes these moments less special, and I actually agree.
But, what things do these hybrid controllers actually simplify? Movement? Simultaneous input just frames like EWGF and JFSR? iWR moves? None of these things are techniques that we ooh and aah over. They are things we expect every competitive tekken player to be able to do. They are the bar for entry. It isn't notable when we see a player who can kbd, it is notable when we see one who can't. We don't bat an eye when a mishima hits an electric, but everyone groans when one is missed.
The things that are actually exciting?
Taunt > Jet upper
JF acid rain
Kaz CH df+2 > PEWGF
VTSc f,f+1+2
Microdash jab carries
ext dck 1 into sonic fang
wavedash iSW
No hybrid controller will help you with any of these things. They remain skill based regardless of your input solution. The hype shit stays hype, but the bar to be considered a basic, entry level tekken player drops. I'm cool with that. I am so beyond cool with that.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
The more I think about this, the more I'm fine with it. Valle was making an argument about how things that require excellent execution and practice are special and set skilled players apart. We get hype over difficult things because we know how tricky they were to pull off. He feels like lowering that bar makes these moments less special, and I actually agree.
But, what things do these hybrid controllers actually simplify? Movement? Simultaneous input just frames like EWGF and JFSR? iWR moves? None of these things are techniques that we ooh and aah over. They are things we expect every competitive tekken player to be able to do. They are the bar for entry. It isn't notable when we see a player who can kbd, it is notable when we see one who can't. We don't bat an eye when a mishima hits an electric, but everyone groans when one is missed.
The things that are actually exciting?
Taunt > Jet upper
JF acid rain
Kaz CH df+2 > PEWGF
VTSc f,f+1+2
Microdash jab carries
ext dck 1 into sonic fang
wavedash iSW
No hybrid controller will help you with any of these things. They remain skill based regardless of your input solution. The hype shit stays hype, but the bar to be considered a basic, entry level tekken player drops. I'm cool with that. I am so beyond cool with that.
I understand you're coming at it from a Tekken PoV, which I can't speak for, but for me, with an SF background, having those inputs, especially duplicated and/or combined inputs, I think is crossing the line. It's like...okay, I like execution but I'm not going to defend it as a hype moment, more of a baseline perspective. Like, in SF4, you've seen one eryu combo, you've seen them all. Same with elena. That they're 1f links doesn't make them more hype.
Same with the Akuma cr.mk/mp xx teleport xx u2 combo that Tokido modded his stick for. It's hard but I don't think it's necessarily hype, it's more like, ok everyone playing the character has put in the time. But, the difference between doing that (complicated and fast) motion on stick and having a up button to do it with is big, same with fullschedule having the up diagonals as buttons so he can do trivial tk cancels from dps and more importantly, "viper ball", which is EXTREMELY difficult on stick and pretty easy with diagonal buttons (which makes sense, why else would they mod their stick). It removes the practice aspect, it (mostly) removes the POSSIBILITY of it dropping, and that possibility I think is key. Maybe the perspective is that combo DROPS are bigger moments than successful combos. In theory they shouldn't drop their combos, but in practice, you see dropped 1f punishes, you see dropped 1f links, fuck you even see shit like the EG special of SF4, ex snake strike instead of ultra.
I feel the same way about select plinking, though that's an even murkier can of worms. I think what bugs me about it, is changing something that is hard into something that is much easier. Like the gap there is frustrating to me, with select plinking you have 2x chance to hit the link (assuming 1f) and that's only if you have a hardware mod to your stick. Even the gafrobox, which I honestly don't think was that big a deal and said as much when the "controversy" was happening, having extra directionals next to the action buttons so you literally just hit f+p together with your right hand while holding back with your left...it rubs me the wrong way. It FEELS unfair.
But hey, people also say that about the hitbox and you know what, they're probably right. Daigo himself has talked about how having access to flash kick that doesn't cross neutral (so you're never standing before you go into flash kick) on hitbox is a game changer because it lets him do delayed flashkick that antiairs close crossups that would either make normal flash kicks whiff or be hit out of the neutral standing state before startup.
I think there should be a line and the line being 1:1 buttons:inputs makes sense, and using dpad vs analog inputs circumvents the spirit of that even if it's ""technically"" allowed, which I don't even know if it is.
Obviously all of this is personal interpretation and none of it is a big deal. That's just my opinion.
as far as SF is concerned, the gray areas exist but nothing on the level of electrics I don't think
hitbox helped me a lot as a player, but it didn't let me do anything people don't already do all the time. but i have serious hand/wrist problems, and i just couldn't deal with the hand fatigue of a stick... so hitbox was a way to really practice for extended periods of time, which in turn led to minimally acceptable execution
Yeah, I'm not on board with the idea of execution being the skill part of the game. Matchups and decision making and fundamentals like footsies are what should matter.
I do agree that things that can warp how the game is understood are bad. Things like bypassing neutral to shave boom charge time or bypass the standing frame of a flash kick fundamentally change elements of the game. To bring it back to tekken, it was recently discovered that you can sidestep into the foreground from a forced crouch on a hitbox or any controller with multiple directionals (such as a dualshock). This is 100% impossible on a joystick or any device that cannot input simultaneous opposite cardinal directions. The game was designed around only being able to step one direction from a crouch. A fundamental part of learning and playing the game is understanding that a forced crouch state dramatically limits your movement options. This crouch sidestep technique warps how the game is played, and definitely needs to be addressed in some fashion.
I wish someone would make a simpler 3D fighter already, like the trend of simpler 2D fighters we're getting. Tekken, SC, and DoA all have super big movelists that require extensive research to defend against every character, and too many characters to make that a reasonable use of time. I just want something that plays similar to these games with consistent rules and small enough movelists that it's reasonable to learn a character's deal over the course of a set. Gimme a 3D Samsho!
I wish someone would make a simpler 3D fighter already, like the trend of simpler 2D fighters we're getting. Tekken, SC, and DoA all have super big movelists that require extensive research to defend against every character, and too many characters to make that a reasonable use of time. I just want something that plays similar to these games with consistent rules and small enough movelists that it's reasonable to learn a character's deal over the course of a set. Gimme a 3D Samsho!
I wish someone would make a simpler 3D fighter already, like the trend of simpler 2D fighters we're getting. Tekken, SC, and DoA all have super big movelists that require extensive research to defend against every character, and too many characters to make that a reasonable use of time. I just want something that plays similar to these games with consistent rules and small enough movelists that it's reasonable to learn a character's deal over the course of a set. Gimme a 3D Samsho!
Dark Souls and Gundam Vs! Really small movelists, easy to grok, okizeme is fairly weak, utilization of system mechanics and intuitive reactions are deeply important relative to frame knowledge.
I actually think it would be really fun if there was a sytstem setting/mod for SC that jacked up the damage on all kinds of big single hits, removed a bunch of combo potential/strings, and made it so that all the stages in Random are the stages with no ring out. One of the big fundamental differences between Samsho and SC is that choosing to block is relatively safe and relatively easy in Samsho (which all the new supers added to the game helped deal with by giving everybody a bunch of resources for giant capitalizations off of throws), while choosing to block in SC is a commitment that exposes you immediately to certain kinds of attacks that you cannot easily block on reaction. On top of that, SC has many strings which can sneak damage through against opponents who are not knowledgeable about the opposing character, which is extremely rare in Samsho and largely anathema to Samsho's design intentions. It is fun to be able to just get in each other's faces and brawl, but it's also fun to be able to play a fencing match, and at a lower level of play it's difficult to not brawl because there are just so many strings with mixed overheads/lows that just happen as you press buttons.
Arguably I'm just advocating for Siegfried mirrors all the time?
Yeah, I'm not on board with the idea of execution being the skill part of the game. Matchups and decision making and fundamentals like footsies are what should matter.
I think it's not that it should be the only skill part of the game or the singular defining skill part of the game, but it ought to be one of the skill parts of the game as opposed to not a skill part of the game. If combo execution were all that mattered, we should attend just attend speedmetal concerts where sustained frame-perfect timing is the standard.
Oh god, Siegfried's one of the worst characters to defend against with all his weird stance transitions.
A Soulslike fighting game is definitely something I've wanted for a long time, I did a whole lot of dueling in DS2. Just need a version of that with good netcode.
Maybe I should try For Honor again, haven't played that since the open beta. Or maybe one of those 3D arena fighters every anime gets.
I've wanted an analog thumbstick and a scrollwheel near the space bar of my keyboard for forever. I'm vaguely tempted to disassemble some Lenovo keyboard to do it....
My hitbox has made me able to do links that I couldn't do before because I couldn't dash, and reliably do command grabs on both sides. That's about it.
I wonder if a hitbox would allow me to actually play characters in NRS games with command grabs that have the dbf input. I mess up that input SO much. D-pad, stick, doesn't matter.
I was bummed I couldn't put more focus into Hellboy in IJ2, and I'm equally bummed that I can't play Jax in MK11.
I played Jax, just do what I did and never use his command grab because it's not great anyway. You need to use meter to extend it, using two bars for decent damage, and if you do it without extensions it does less damage than a regular grab.
The coolest thing about it is that if you perfectly time all the extensions you get a crushing blow for goood damage. A thing I managed online never.
I'll play more once they finally add the next character.
I think I got my Zas in the top 100 but I want to take a break from him and play someone else.
I want Hwang in but I'll try either Amy or Cass.
Amy has maybe too many mechanics going on, but I love the way they naturally escalate during a long match. Plus, some of her fundamentals are just plain strong.
This is kind of fun. Maximilian trying to get a "Bring Back Killer Instinct" campaign going. He's urging people to get on and play tomorrow night, or jump on twitch and watch him and other streamers play the game.
I'll play more once they finally add the next character.
I think I got my Zas in the top 100 but I want to take a break from him and play someone else.
I want Hwang in but I'll try either Amy or Cass.
Amy has maybe too many mechanics going on, but I love the way they naturally escalate during a long match. Plus, some of her fundamentals are just plain strong.
Yeah I realize that I generally like characters who are solid but wellrounded.
I wanted to try 2B but she is a bit too gimmicky for me even if she's strong. Amy is solid but yeah a lot of mechanics to manage. Why I'm interested in seeing who is next.
I'll play more once they finally add the next character.
I think I got my Zas in the top 100 but I want to take a break from him and play someone else.
I want Hwang in but I'll try either Amy or Cass.
Amy has maybe too many mechanics going on, but I love the way they naturally escalate during a long match. Plus, some of her fundamentals are just plain strong.
Yeah I realize that I generally like characters who are solid but wellrounded.
I wanted to try 2B but she is a bit too gimmicky for me even if she's strong. Amy is solid but yeah a lot of mechanics to manage. Why I'm interested in seeing who is next.
Given the accuracy of the leaks, it's probably Cassandra, but I'm not sure there's anyone I would be less hype for. Give us Bangoo!
Posts
But, what things do these hybrid controllers actually simplify? Movement? Simultaneous input just frames like EWGF and JFSR? iWR moves? None of these things are techniques that we ooh and aah over. They are things we expect every competitive tekken player to be able to do. They are the bar for entry. It isn't notable when we see a player who can kbd, it is notable when we see one who can't. We don't bat an eye when a mishima hits an electric, but everyone groans when one is missed.
The things that are actually exciting?
Taunt > Jet upper
JF acid rain
Kaz CH df+2 > PEWGF
VTSc f,f+1+2
Microdash jab carries
ext dck 1 into sonic fang
wavedash iSW
No hybrid controller will help you with any of these things. They remain skill based regardless of your input solution. The hype shit stays hype, but the bar to be considered a basic, entry level tekken player drops. I'm cool with that. I am so beyond cool with that.
I understand you're coming at it from a Tekken PoV, which I can't speak for, but for me, with an SF background, having those inputs, especially duplicated and/or combined inputs, I think is crossing the line. It's like...okay, I like execution but I'm not going to defend it as a hype moment, more of a baseline perspective. Like, in SF4, you've seen one eryu combo, you've seen them all. Same with elena. That they're 1f links doesn't make them more hype.
Same with the Akuma cr.mk/mp xx teleport xx u2 combo that Tokido modded his stick for. It's hard but I don't think it's necessarily hype, it's more like, ok everyone playing the character has put in the time. But, the difference between doing that (complicated and fast) motion on stick and having a up button to do it with is big, same with fullschedule having the up diagonals as buttons so he can do trivial tk cancels from dps and more importantly, "viper ball", which is EXTREMELY difficult on stick and pretty easy with diagonal buttons (which makes sense, why else would they mod their stick). It removes the practice aspect, it (mostly) removes the POSSIBILITY of it dropping, and that possibility I think is key. Maybe the perspective is that combo DROPS are bigger moments than successful combos. In theory they shouldn't drop their combos, but in practice, you see dropped 1f punishes, you see dropped 1f links, fuck you even see shit like the EG special of SF4, ex snake strike instead of ultra.
I feel the same way about select plinking, though that's an even murkier can of worms. I think what bugs me about it, is changing something that is hard into something that is much easier. Like the gap there is frustrating to me, with select plinking you have 2x chance to hit the link (assuming 1f) and that's only if you have a hardware mod to your stick. Even the gafrobox, which I honestly don't think was that big a deal and said as much when the "controversy" was happening, having extra directionals next to the action buttons so you literally just hit f+p together with your right hand while holding back with your left...it rubs me the wrong way. It FEELS unfair.
But hey, people also say that about the hitbox and you know what, they're probably right. Daigo himself has talked about how having access to flash kick that doesn't cross neutral (so you're never standing before you go into flash kick) on hitbox is a game changer because it lets him do delayed flashkick that antiairs close crossups that would either make normal flash kicks whiff or be hit out of the neutral standing state before startup.
I think there should be a line and the line being 1:1 buttons:inputs makes sense, and using dpad vs analog inputs circumvents the spirit of that even if it's ""technically"" allowed, which I don't even know if it is.
Obviously all of this is personal interpretation and none of it is a big deal. That's just my opinion.
Like there is a better argument to remove the input requirement entirely than keeping it as is, that’s how important Electrics are to Mishima’s.
as far as SF is concerned, the gray areas exist but nothing on the level of electrics I don't think
hitbox helped me a lot as a player, but it didn't let me do anything people don't already do all the time. but i have serious hand/wrist problems, and i just couldn't deal with the hand fatigue of a stick... so hitbox was a way to really practice for extended periods of time, which in turn led to minimally acceptable execution
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
You want a Bushido Blade reboot!
Dark Souls and Gundam Vs! Really small movelists, easy to grok, okizeme is fairly weak, utilization of system mechanics and intuitive reactions are deeply important relative to frame knowledge.
I actually think it would be really fun if there was a sytstem setting/mod for SC that jacked up the damage on all kinds of big single hits, removed a bunch of combo potential/strings, and made it so that all the stages in Random are the stages with no ring out. One of the big fundamental differences between Samsho and SC is that choosing to block is relatively safe and relatively easy in Samsho (which all the new supers added to the game helped deal with by giving everybody a bunch of resources for giant capitalizations off of throws), while choosing to block in SC is a commitment that exposes you immediately to certain kinds of attacks that you cannot easily block on reaction. On top of that, SC has many strings which can sneak damage through against opponents who are not knowledgeable about the opposing character, which is extremely rare in Samsho and largely anathema to Samsho's design intentions. It is fun to be able to just get in each other's faces and brawl, but it's also fun to be able to play a fencing match, and at a lower level of play it's difficult to not brawl because there are just so many strings with mixed overheads/lows that just happen as you press buttons.
Arguably I'm just advocating for Siegfried mirrors all the time?
I think it's not that it should be the only skill part of the game or the singular defining skill part of the game, but it ought to be one of the skill parts of the game as opposed to not a skill part of the game. If combo execution were all that mattered, we should attend just attend speedmetal concerts where sustained frame-perfect timing is the standard.
A Soulslike fighting game is definitely something I've wanted for a long time, I did a whole lot of dueling in DS2. Just need a version of that with good netcode.
Maybe I should try For Honor again, haven't played that since the open beta. Or maybe one of those 3D arena fighters every anime gets.
My fingers are really big so going from 2 to 3 without hitting 6 is very difficult for me.
But stick is too unwieldly for me...I was thinking about Hitbox because I'm used to typing on a keyboard so the transition won't feel as weird.
I wonder if a hitbox would allow me to actually play characters in NRS games with command grabs that have the dbf input. I mess up that input SO much. D-pad, stick, doesn't matter.
I was bummed I couldn't put more focus into Hellboy in IJ2, and I'm equally bummed that I can't play Jax in MK11.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
The coolest thing about it is that if you perfectly time all the extensions you get a crushing blow for goood damage. A thing I managed online never.
I.e., play Soul Calibur with me
I think I got my Zas in the top 100 but I want to take a break from him and play someone else.
I want Hwang in but I'll try either Amy or Cass.
Amy has maybe too many mechanics going on, but I love the way they naturally escalate during a long match. Plus, some of her fundamentals are just plain strong.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
Yeah I realize that I generally like characters who are solid but wellrounded.
I wanted to try 2B but she is a bit too gimmicky for me even if she's strong. Amy is solid but yeah a lot of mechanics to manage. Why I'm interested in seeing who is next.
Given the accuracy of the leaks, it's probably Cassandra, but I'm not sure there's anyone I would be less hype for. Give us Bangoo!
He didn't add me back on Steam
there's nothing better than have someone passive-agressively invite you to insulting steam groups after a match
the brilliant part of this is that they have to be a member of the group to invite you to it
Does he know that everyone standing around him can see his hands while he's playing?
Bloody Roar
Darkstalkers
Bushido Blade
I bet it would be really cool
Though I would not be opposed to Darkstalkers.