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[Star Trek] Ship Noises - Spoiler Discovery talk

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    ....so Star Trek is just Federation propaganda?

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    ....so Star Trek is just Federation propaganda?

    Sure, seems reasonable. Everyone wants to make people THINK they're the good guys. And that's not to assume that the crews we've come to love are actively complicit. More that they're a little naive about the reality of the power structure they're a part of, and that they've been selected BECAUSE of that naivete.

    "Let's put this principled guy in charge of the Enterprise. Give him a roguish first officer who's causing us nothing but trouble. And a crew filled with idealists, all in one place, rather than scattered through the fleet. Oh, and that damned empath. And we'll fuck them off into deep space so they can't get in the way of the business of actually running the Federation. And lets let the public and any first contacts, think this is who we are."

    Makes sense to me. Because the number of people at higher levels that seem to be actively corrupt, or condoning of non-Federation values, seems to be pretty significant. And when the protagonists get wind of it, they tend to fuck up those people. So sending them beyond the borders of known space, or on a space station on the border, keeps them out of the hair of the people getting work done, while being used as PR for the "ideals of the Federation".

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    ....so Star Trek is just Federation propaganda?

    That would explain why whatever the crew does is always the "right thing".

    "And so, our heroes heroically withheld life-saving medication from an entire planet, enabling them in their journey towards inevitable extinction through horrific debilitating disease, and there was much rejoicing. The end."

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's dark but it's not weird. The way the whole episode ends is good and one of the obvious ways to go with the premise.

    But yeah, as above, very Twilight Zone.
    You're right, I shouldn't have used weird. It's a normal way for that story to go. Even had a dark ending.

    I initially went with weird because, at the end of the episode, it didn't matter. It was a group of aliens that, for some inexplicable reason, forgot they were aliens and then went on to be better Starfleet officers than the real Voyager (faux Janeway did not force her way onto a planet that would save her crew).

    That's not weird, it's a standard sci-fi trope really, it's just an episode that was so divorced from everything else that you could miss it and it wouldn't matter.

    What's weird is that the duplicates and the originals don't meet up, which is what usually happens in these episodes and where a lot of the tension and emotional conflict comes from. The episode with the two Rikers and the one with the planet full of Defiant descendants (who are close enough to duplicates personality and plot wise) bring that tension and the resolutions of those episodes leave everyone changed. Voyager has a situation where the writers could explore the Doctor dealing with a version of himself who is facing death or a Chakotay seeing how the crew is reacting to his death and they just decided not to go there.

    They decided to go somewhere else, which was unusually dark for them. The Demon Planet episode went the 'expected' way; copies are made of the cast, are these copies sentient, don't they have a right to live as much as the main characters, find some way for both sides to get what they want without murdering each other. So far, so Star Trek.

    And this one just took the usual story beats and twisted them. They try the long-odds solution and it goes wrong every time. Copy Janeway wants to keep going in the hope that something turns up, it doesn't. They try to make a record of who they were so that someone will know about them after they're gone, it's destroyed. A last minute light at the end of the tunnel needs them to take an absurd risk to reach it, and it destroys them.

    They could put the actual Voyager crew in the mix and still have the same beats and twists. A resolution of everyone dies and nobody notices is just kind of a wasted opportunity.

    No it's not. It's just a different take. You can't have the same beats and twists with the original crew in the mix because what pulls it all together is the ultimate futility of the whole thing. It's a tragedy.

    You can have the original crew struggling to help get the duplicate Voyager back to the Demon Planet and ultimately fail to do so. They struggle, they fail, they get to see how their duplicates face their deaths. It's still a tragedy, but it's not a pointless one. If they cared about evolving the characters they could use it to go dark with the crew deciding to make it home no matter the cost, or more upbeat with a review of the other ship's logs and a promise to share their story while upholding the ideals the duplicates showed while they were off running around doing things.

    But that's an entirely different story that doesn't touch on the same beats.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Lezta wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    DS9: here's an old Jake flashback show about Sisko dying or something

    Me: Thanks I hate it

    Wait, was this The Visitor?

    You didn't like The Visitor? I think this is the first time I've not seen gushing praise for it. Everyone cries watching it!

    Yeah, The Visitor is a staple of "Best of" lists. What is this madness?

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Nope. Don't like flashbacks that much. The gal that shows up at his door is annoying. You are fully aware things will return to normal at the end. It's slow and boring. I'm sick of time travel plots. Aging make-up and Bashir doing a dumb "I'm an old man" voice. Quark isn't in it.

    Thank u next

    So It Goes on
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Nope. Don't like flashbacks that much. The gal that shows up at his door is annoying. You are fully aware things will return to normal at the end. It's slow and boring. I'm sick of time travel plots. Aging make-up and Bashir doing a dumb "I'm an old man" voice. Quark isn't in it.

    Thank u next

    "Chronitons...."

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    ....so Star Trek is just Federation propaganda?

    That would explain why whatever the crew does is always the "right thing".

    "And so, our heroes heroically withheld life-saving medication from an entire planet, enabling them in their journey towards inevitable extinction through horrific debilitating disease, and there was much rejoicing. The end."

    they did it in the name of the less intelligent humanoid species that relied utterly on the more advanced civilization for sustenance, and also likely died out in vast numbers being unable to feed themselves

  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Nope. Don't like flashbacks that much. The gal that shows up at his door is annoying. You are fully aware things will return to normal at the end. It's slow and boring. I'm sick of time travel plots. Aging make-up and Bashir doing a dumb "I'm an old man" voice. Quark isn't in it.

    Thank u next
    The gal that shows up is Garak's actors real life daughter. How dare you....(kidding, I also felt she was annoying).

    In the Pale Moonlight is a flashback episode based on how it's structured....but it does have Quark.

    Hmm.

    Bizazedo on
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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Nope. Don't like flashbacks that much. The gal that shows up at his door is annoying. You are fully aware things will return to normal at the end. It's slow and boring. I'm sick of time travel plots. Aging make-up and Bashir doing a dumb "I'm an old man" voice. Quark isn't in it.

    Thank u next

    haha oh man bashir in old age makeup :V

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Like if I read The Visitor as a short story I'd probably like it. Didn't work for me as a TV episode though.

    I will reserve judgment on future flashback episodes .

  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    oh wait i think distant voices might be in season 3 so you'd have seen that one already... god, they put bashir in old age makeup a lot.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    oh wait i think distant voices might be in season 3 so you'd have seen that one already... god, they put bashir in old age makeup a lot.

    Its so they could try and contain his sexual prowess. Sadly too late for Kira.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    oh wait i think distant voices might be in season 3 so you'd have seen that one already... god, they put bashir in old age makeup a lot.

    My reaction to that one was also zzzz

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    If it makes you feel better, there's an episode where they put Odo in old age makeup.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    No! Stop! Seeing Kurzon Odo was bad enough

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    They put O'brien in old man make up and no one noticed.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! PDX areaRegistered User regular
    If it makes you feel better, there's an episode where they put Odo in old age makeup.

    Which is really odd, since all they'd have to do is take some of the Odo makeup off!

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  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    ....so Star Trek is just Federation propaganda?

    Sure, seems reasonable. Everyone wants to make people THINK they're the good guys. And that's not to assume that the crews we've come to love are actively complicit. More that they're a little naive about the reality of the power structure they're a part of, and that they've been selected BECAUSE of that naivete.

    "Let's put this principled guy in charge of the Enterprise. Give him a roguish first officer who's causing us nothing but trouble. And a crew filled with idealists, all in one place, rather than scattered through the fleet. Oh, and that damned empath. And we'll fuck them off into deep space so they can't get in the way of the business of actually running the Federation. And lets let the public and any first contacts, think this is who we are."

    Makes sense to me. Because the number of people at higher levels that seem to be actively corrupt, or condoning of non-Federation values, seems to be pretty significant. And when the protagonists get wind of it, they tend to fuck up those people. So sending them beyond the borders of known space, or on a space station on the border, keeps them out of the hair of the people getting work done, while being used as PR for the "ideals of the Federation".

    Next you're gonna tell me you hate Root Beer.

    Do you hate Root Beer, MorganV?

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    on a more serious note, wouldn't the diegetic reasoning for "These are the voyages..." have them just be the preamble to Kirk's Captain's Log?

    Lanz on
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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    DS9: here's an old Jake flashback show about Sisko dying or something

    Me: Thanks I hate it

    what. in. the. fuck.

    The Visitor is maybe in the top 3 episodes of DS9. holy fucking shit I can't even.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Bracing myself for a season 6 hot take.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Bracing myself for a season 6 hot take.
    Far Beyond the Star is so good though.

    i'm mad in advance!

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    Bracing myself for a season 6 hot take.
    Far Beyond the Star is so good though.

    i'm mad in advance!

    Oh that's not the one.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    I literally just teared up at work watching this 3 minute clip
    https://youtu.be/FK-cSGyvTPM

    fuck all y'all

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Viskod wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    Bracing myself for a season 6 hot take.
    Far Beyond the Star is so good though.

    i'm mad in advance!

    Oh that's not the one.

    wait really?
    hm

    well Trials and Tribble-ations is season 5. What the hell else had time travel around then. hmmm. Time's Orphan? I mean that's bad (but I still like it lol)

    man, just glancing at season 6 again, holy shit what a good batch of episodes.

    Hardtarget on
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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    DS9: here's an old Jake flashback show about Sisko dying or something

    Me: Thanks I hate it

    what. in. the. fuck.

    The Visitor is maybe in the top 3 episodes of DS9. holy fucking shit I can't even.

    I don't get it, either. I mean, we all knew that Picard would go back to captaining the Enterprise at the end of "The Inner Light," but that didn't make it less than amazing.

    I like "The Visitor" even more because it's so intimate. It's not Sisko adopting another persona and having a fantasy life. It's about father and son through the years, and what that should mean. Future Jake's sacrifice is just such a beautiful, crushing moment.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    oh man The Inner Light is such a good comparison. You're spot on there.

    edit - unless @So It Goes also disliked that one. Then it's just true to form!

    Hardtarget on
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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I like The Inner Light, but I kinda gotta agree with the notion that the race doing it are kind of dicks, and there's a less dickish way of getting their point across other than what amounts to fake abducting you for the rest of your life. To put it in perspective, the same exact phenomenon happens to O'Brien, and it's treated as an utterly horrific and traumatizing experience. Which is also another notch on the belt of "O'Brien just can't catch a break".

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Oh I don't think Picard is happy it happened to him, he's just living with it and trying to accept the positives of it over the negatives. It's basically mind rape.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I like The Inner Light, but I kinda gotta agree with the notion that the race doing it are kind of dicks, and there's a less dickish way of getting their point across other than what amounts to fake abducting you for the rest of your life. To put it in perspective, the same exact phenomenon happens to O'Brien, and it's treated as an utterly horrific and traumatizing experience. Which is also another notch on the belt of "O'Brien just can't catch a break".

    Well the difference is Picard lived a like happy life? Where as O'brien lived literally a prison sentence.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    oh man The Inner Light is such a good comparison. You're spot on there.

    edit - unless So It Goes" also disliked that one. Then it's just true to form!

    I mean I don't really mind if people disagree with me? It's cool. I've stated why I didn't like it already. I don't think I need to divulge my entire episode ratings in order for my opinion to be valid.

    I did like The Inner Light, tho at the end I was like damn that was a fucked up thing to have happen to a guy

    So It Goes on
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Bracing myself for a season 6 hot take.

    This seems a bit unnecessary.

    But don't worry I'll keep posting about DS9 as I go along because it's fun.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I think Tapestry is my favorite like stand alone episode. Well as much as an episode involving Q can be stand alone.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    They put O'brien in old man make up and no one noticed.

    For O'Brien, it was Tuesday.

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  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    Question: Inner Light, but the Probe requests user consent before it drops you in the simulation

    Does Picard jump at the chance, given the fact that
    A) At heart he is an Archeologist and this is a once in a lifetime chance to literally live through the life of one of these people.
    B) He is made aware that virtually no time will pass between beginning and ending the simulation?

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  • wanderingwandering Russia state-affiliated media Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Question: Inner Light, but the Probe requests user consent before it drops you in the simulation

    Does Picard jump at the chance, given the fact that
    A) At heart he is an Archeologist and this is a once in a lifetime chance to literally live through the life of one of these people.
    B) He is made aware that virtually no time will pass between beginning and ending the simulation?
    Does it come with reviews from previous users

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Question: Inner Light, but the Probe requests user consent before it drops you in the simulation

    Does Picard jump at the chance, given the fact that
    A) At heart he is an Archeologist and this is a once in a lifetime chance to literally live through the life of one of these people.
    B) He is made aware that virtually no time will pass between beginning and ending the simulation?
    Given the level of tech, you could probably just rewrite his memory to make him THINK that he gave consent, retroactively. It would be indistinguishable from actually giving consent in his memory. Aliens give no fucks.

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Lanz wrote: »
    Question: Inner Light, but the Probe requests user consent before it drops you in the simulation

    Does Picard jump at the chance, given the fact that
    A) At heart he is an Archeologist and this is a once in a lifetime chance to literally live through the life of one of these people.
    B) He is made aware that virtually no time will pass between beginning and ending the simulation?

    Picard ostensibly vollenteered to permanently merge with an energy being back in Season 1 because of his scientific curiosity. He'd totally jump at the chance to have a lifetime of memories from a dead civilization beamed into his head.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    Question: Inner Light, but the Probe is found by a group of random Ferengi Engineers.

    Do they reverse engineer it to create a VR simulator to rival holodeck technology and attempt to corner the simulated entertainment market?

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This discussion has been closed.