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[Mueller Investigation] Where there's smock, there's liar.

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Posts

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Juggernut wrote: »


    So ole Manny said he didn't talk to anybody in the administration honest to gosh cross his heart hope to die except he was totally in contact with people in the administration including a "senior administration official"

    And Mueller knew about it all along. Hopefully in real time, and in ways that would be...useful later.

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  • ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This is kind of unbelievable. Manafort could have cooperated or not, yet it seems he took a third option and half cooperated/half lied. Just, how can this be so stupid?

    Also the word Manafort has lost meaning for me and is now just a collection of sounds.
    It looks like he was trying to cooperate enough to reduce his jail sentence, but hide enough that he'd still have jobs for being a Good Loyal Boy when he got out.

    Fortunately they already had proof he knew more than he was telling, so he's going down down down...

    FencingsaxYoutubeJulius
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    In other news Individual-1 appears to be reading a different Cohen sentencing memo to the rest of us.


    That tweet reply thread. My sides are on orbit. I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe. I'm fucking dying over here.

    camo_sig.png
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  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    Archangle wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This is kind of unbelievable. Manafort could have cooperated or not, yet it seems he took a third option and half cooperated/half lied. Just, how can this be so stupid?

    Also the word Manafort has lost meaning for me and is now just a collection of sounds.
    It looks like he was trying to cooperate enough to reduce his jail sentence, but hide enough that he'd still have jobs for being a Good Loyal Boy when he got out.

    Fortunately they already had proof he knew more than he was telling, so he's going down down down...

    probably more along the lines of cooperating enough to get a smaller jail sentence but not enough to lose every single ill begotten dollar he ever swindled.

    I imagine he has quite a nest egg that he can live off of once he gets out of jail and if he admits that he (or trump) committed crimes to earn that money, he would forfeit it.

    shryke
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This is kind of unbelievable. Manafort could have cooperated or not, yet it seems he took a third option and half cooperated/half lied. Just, how can this be so stupid?

    Also the word Manafort has lost meaning for me and is now just a collection of sounds.
    It looks like he was trying to cooperate enough to reduce his jail sentence, but hide enough that he'd still have jobs for being a Good Loyal Boy when he got out.

    Fortunately they already had proof he knew more than he was telling, so he's going down down down...

    probably more along the lines of cooperating enough to get a smaller jail sentence but not enough to lose every single ill begotten dollar he ever swindled.

    I imagine he has quite a nest egg that he can live off of once he gets out of jail and if he admits that he (or trump) committed crimes to earn that money, he would forfeit it.

    At his age Manafort is going to die in prison. The concern for him is whether it is from heart disease or a Russian cellmate.

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  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This is kind of unbelievable. Manafort could have cooperated or not, yet it seems he took a third option and half cooperated/half lied. Just, how can this be so stupid?

    Also the word Manafort has lost meaning for me and is now just a collection of sounds.
    It looks like he was trying to cooperate enough to reduce his jail sentence, but hide enough that he'd still have jobs for being a Good Loyal Boy when he got out.

    Fortunately they already had proof he knew more than he was telling, so he's going down down down...

    probably more along the lines of cooperating enough to get a smaller jail sentence but not enough to lose every single ill begotten dollar he ever swindled.

    I imagine he has quite a nest egg that he can live off of once he gets out of jail and if he admits that he (or trump) committed crimes to earn that money, he would forfeit it.

    At his age Manafort is going to die in prison. The concern for him is whether it is from heart disease or a Russian cellmate.

    And whether his Family goes that way too.

    Putin would have no qualms playing that card.

    shryke wrote: »
    The Democrats aren't crazy but they are still, you know, running the US and it's foreign policy. Which is in the "you don't have a global hegemony without bombing a few eggs" wheelhouse.
    Man in the MistsYoutubemonikerFallout2man
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This is kind of unbelievable. Manafort could have cooperated or not, yet it seems he took a third option and half cooperated/half lied. Just, how can this be so stupid?

    Also the word Manafort has lost meaning for me and is now just a collection of sounds.
    It looks like he was trying to cooperate enough to reduce his jail sentence, but hide enough that he'd still have jobs for being a Good Loyal Boy when he got out.

    Fortunately they already had proof he knew more than he was telling, so he's going down down down...

    probably more along the lines of cooperating enough to get a smaller jail sentence but not enough to lose every single ill begotten dollar he ever swindled.

    I imagine he has quite a nest egg that he can live off of once he gets out of jail and if he admits that he (or trump) committed crimes to earn that money, he would forfeit it.

    Isn’t he broke now between (self-inflicted) legal fees and the government seizing its chunk after the money laundering and tax evasion?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »


    So ole Manny said he didn't talk to anybody in the administration honest to gosh cross his heart hope to die except he was totally in contact with people in the administration including a "senior administration official"

    And Mueller knew about it all along. Hopefully in real time, and in ways that would be...useful later.

    Yeah, like when we were talking about Mueller potentially using Manafort to rope-a-dope Trump, if there's anyone here you could count on to just lie to you and keep committing crimes, it would be Manafort.

    moniker
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    Archangle wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    This is kind of unbelievable. Manafort could have cooperated or not, yet it seems he took a third option and half cooperated/half lied. Just, how can this be so stupid?

    Also the word Manafort has lost meaning for me and is now just a collection of sounds.
    It looks like he was trying to cooperate enough to reduce his jail sentence, but hide enough that he'd still have jobs for being a Good Loyal Boy when he got out.

    Fortunately they already had proof he knew more than he was telling, so he's going down down down...

    probably more along the lines of cooperating enough to get a smaller jail sentence but not enough to lose every single ill begotten dollar he ever swindled.

    I imagine he has quite a nest egg that he can live off of once he gets out of jail and if he admits that he (or trump) committed crimes to earn that money, he would forfeit it.

    Isn’t he broke now between (self-inflicted) legal fees and the government seizing its chunk after the money laundering and tax evasion?

    A common supposition is that he's squirrelled away a ton of cash somewhere that hasn't been seized yet and is trying to weasel his way into a pardon so he can flee the US and live a life of luxury somewhere else.

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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    CNBC Reporter:



    White dudes, am I right?

    august on
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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    I can see why he and Trump got along so well.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    It's not surprising when you're considering they are people who have never been accountable for a lie in their life. Regular people will remember the lies they tell so they can keep a story straight (or maybe guilt over the lie, or both).

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    In other news Individual-1 appears to be reading a different Cohen sentencing memo to the rest of us.


    That tweet reply thread. My sides are on orbit. I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe. I'm fucking dying over here.

    The President is in the clear, but that Individual-1 sure is in trouble!

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    august wrote: »
    CNBC Reporter:



    White dudes, am I right?

    Amazing

    Simply amazing what a life of zero accountability will do to your concept of lying

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Add Ivanka Trump to the Moscow Trump Tower conspiracy.


    That mysterious Russian national named in today’s Cohen memo? A weightlifter that Ivanka Trump instructed Cohen to speak with about the Moscow Tower. First reported my @JasonLeopold, @LoopEmma and I.

    Anthony Cormier is an investigator for Buzzfeed News

    Harry Dresden on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    EDIT: Eh, someone else said it already.

    Commander Zoom on
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/trump-felony-michael-cohen-paul-manafort-collusion-payment.html
    Federal prosecutors released sentencing recommendations for two alleged criminals who worked closely with Donald Trump: his lawyer Michael Cohen, and campaign manager Paul Manafort. They are filled with damning details. But the most important passage by far is this, about Trump’s fixer: “Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1.”

    The payments in question, as the document explains, concern a payoff to two women who claimed to have affairs with Trump. The payments, according to prosecutors, were intended to influence the campaign, and thereby constituted violations of campaign finance law. They have not formally charged Trump with this crime — it is a sentencing report for Cohen, not Trump — but this is the U.S. Department of Justice calling Trump a criminal.

    The DoJ, on paper, is saying individual-1 committed a felony.

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  • HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    What about all the sealed indictments Mueller's already filed that we haven't seen yet? It is possible Mueller already filed an indictment against the president months ago, to be unsealed as soon as Trump is no longer president (whenever and however that happens)?

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    c. He's got a bunch of money in a secret account in Cyprus or something.

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  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    My big takeaway from all of this is that there is quite a bit still coming.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Jragghen wrote: »
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/trump-felony-michael-cohen-paul-manafort-collusion-payment.html
    Federal prosecutors released sentencing recommendations for two alleged criminals who worked closely with Donald Trump: his lawyer Michael Cohen, and campaign manager Paul Manafort. They are filled with damning details. But the most important passage by far is this, about Trump’s fixer: “Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1.”

    The payments in question, as the document explains, concern a payoff to two women who claimed to have affairs with Trump. The payments, according to prosecutors, were intended to influence the campaign, and thereby constituted violations of campaign finance law. They have not formally charged Trump with this crime — it is a sentencing report for Cohen, not Trump — but this is the U.S. Department of Justice calling Trump a criminal.

    The DoJ, on paper, is saying individual-1 committed a felony.

    Now to be fair, that could be any individual who ran a successful 2016 campaign to become president of the United States.

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  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    c. He's got a bunch of money in a secret account in Cyprus or something.

    D. He's an idiot who's in way over his head

    Every time I've wondered "does such-and-such have a plan?" the answer has always been no so far. Abraham Lincoln once said that if slavery is not evil, then nothing is evil. I say that if these people are not stupid, then no one is stupid.

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  • GimGim a quietly erotic life Registered User regular
    There are going to be so many punk bands named "Individual-1" now.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    As far as they're concerned, words are things you say to get what you want in any given moment. They have no meaning beyond "I want a thing" and no utility beyond getting you that thing. It's not that they don't respect the truth, it's that they barely understand the notion of truth as an objective, constant thing.

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    c. He's got a bunch of money in a secret account in Cyprus or something.

    d. He is constitutionally incapable of telling the truth

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    So 25 months after Donald Trump was elected, we can say with pretty absolute certainty:

    Donald Trump committed multiple felonies and directed high ranking campaign and Republican party officials to commit felonies involving illegal campaign donations, and collusion with a foreign hostile country for personal enrichment and domestic political campaign interference.

    He's just a walking Constitutional Crisis at this point. The Democratic House will bring investigations, and subpoenas and testimony but ultimately there's already confessions of these crimes by high ranking Republican party and campaign staff that were personally brought in by the President. The choice to not bring up the i-word when the crimes are so overt threatens to set a precedent that a President is above the law. And yet, I'm not sure if its politically the best plan.

    Arggggg

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    PantsB wrote: »
    So 25 months after Donald Trump was elected, we can say with pretty absolute certainty:

    Donald Trump committed multiple felonies and directed high ranking campaign and Republican party officials to commit felonies involving illegal campaign donations, and collusion with a foreign hostile country for personal enrichment and domestic political campaign interference.

    He's just a walking Constitutional Crisis at this point. The Democratic House will bring investigations, and subpoenas and testimony but ultimately there's already confessions of these crimes by high ranking Republican party and campaign staff that were personally brought in by the President. The choice to not bring up the i-word when the crimes are so overt threatens to set a precedent that a President is above the law. And yet, I'm not sure if its politically the best plan.

    Arggggg

    Only some Presidents.

    say it with me:
    It's OK If You're A Republican.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    PantsB wrote: »
    The choice to not bring up the i-word when the crimes are so overt threatens to set a precedent that a President is above the law. And yet, I'm not sure if its politically the best plan.

    The choice not to be up impeachment is that to do right now would be pointless, they're simply waiting until they have the best advantage: with Mueller's related report. As the saying goes "You come at the king, you best not miss."

    The president has always been implied to be above the law until impeachment is invoked, and this is ten times worse when the president's party holds congress. If we're lucky the Dems will get a bigger majority by 2020.

    They can't just arrest the president and call it a day. There's centuries of laws and protocol before they can think about doing that.

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    The choice to not bring up the i-word when the crimes are so overt threatens to set a precedent that a President is above the law. And yet, I'm not sure if its politically the best plan.


    They can't just arrest the president and call it a day. There's centuries of laws and protocol before they can think about doing that.

    I do not see why the President should be above the law. I’m sure that if a Democrat President was caught doing the same thing, all those learned Republican law experts wouldn’t even suggest that he couldn’t be arrested.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    I do not see why the President should be above the law. I’m sure that if a Democrat President was caught doing the same thing, all those learned Republican law experts wouldn’t even suggest that he couldn’t be arrested.

    Neither do I but that's the system we're stuck with at the moment. I disagree, the GOP are usually the first to bring and act on impeachment as their first response to Democrats POTUS doing things they don't like. The tried that twice (Clinton and Obama), failed and never bought the cuffs out.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I do not see why the President should be above the law. I’m sure that if a Democrat President was caught doing the same thing, all those learned Republican law experts wouldn’t even suggest that he couldn’t be arrested.

    Neither do I but that's the system we're stuck with at the moment. I disagree, the GOP are usually the first to bring and act on impeachment as their first response to Democrats POTUS doing things they don't like. The tried that twice (Clinton and Obama), failed and never bought the cuffs out.

    However if Clinton or Obama *had* done something illegal, the Republicans certainly would have “brought the cuffs out”. And that would have been fine. No-one should be above the law. The problem was the false accusations, not accusations at all.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    PantsB wrote: »
    So 25 months after Donald Trump was elected, we can say with pretty absolute certainty:

    Donald Trump committed multiple felonies and directed high ranking campaign and Republican party officials to commit felonies involving illegal campaign donations, and collusion with a foreign hostile country for personal enrichment and domestic political campaign interference.

    He's just a walking Constitutional Crisis at this point. The Democratic House will bring investigations, and subpoenas and testimony but ultimately there's already confessions of these crimes by high ranking Republican party and campaign staff that were personally brought in by the President. The choice to not bring up the i-word when the crimes are so overt threatens to set a precedent that a President is above the law. And yet, I'm not sure if its politically the best plan.

    Arggggg

    Well, yes. The biggest subtle looming issue about this whole thing has always been that the public may ultimately simply not care that much the President is a criminal and a traitor who colluded with a hostile foreign power to steal an election and enrich himself. And not like the republican base but the public at large. Democrats spent the last election mostly, it seemed, beating the healthcare drum not the "holy shit the president is a criminal" drum. And anyone talking about the election before hand kept telling them that was the better move.

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    It's the position of Trump's own department of justice that Trump directed Cohen to commit crimes. It's not even just something a special prosecutor is saying. It's in the United States vs Cohen sentencing memo too. It's the DOJ's own position on the matter.

    The fact that the Republican party themselves aren't immediately demanding impeachment is a scandal. It's going unnoticed because of all the other scandals, and because we've all become used to their breathtaking hypocrisy, but it's still a scandal and it's one that will haunt them in the future.

    There's no longer any if about Trump facing charges. It's all a matter of when. It might not be for a decade at the rate things are going, and then he might skate because of his age, but it's still a when. Trump is the next Nixon, the hilariously stupid discount version of Nixon, and the Republican party have unremittingly and absolutely thrown themselves in with him.

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  • DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    DisruptedCapitalist on
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    What jursidiction would they claim? I mean they can revoke his membership of the party, but that's... not going to be a good look. Being a party member doesn't mean you have to quit your job if they dont like it.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Unless you're running for something and want their money the RNC isn't an organization you listen to. The other way around really.

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    What is this I don't even.
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »


    So ole Manny said he didn't talk to anybody in the administration honest to gosh cross his heart hope to die except he was totally in contact with people in the administration including a "senior administration official"

    And Mueller knew about it all along. Hopefully in real time, and in ways that would be...useful later.

    I wonder if that surrogate meeting was manafort begging for a pardon

This discussion has been closed.