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[Mueller Investigation] Where there's smock, there's liar.

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Posts

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    What if they're different crimes? Does being acquitted (or pardoned) of murder in a federal court mean you can't be charged with money laundering in the state of NY? (As a hypothetical.)

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    CommunistCow
  • DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist rugged, weathered Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    V1m wrote: »
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    What jursidiction would they claim? I mean they can revoke his membership of the party, but that's... not going to be a good look. Being a party member doesn't mean you have to quit your job if they dont like it.

    Yes, well that's why I added the edit in parenthesis. Any organization with authority that Mueller recognizes in the Republican panoply. Donors, Russian oligarchs, senators, whomever. Republicans fall in line when they're told to, so why hasn't Mueller?

    DisruptedCapitalist on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    What if they're different crimes? Does being acquitted (or pardoned) of murder in a federal court mean you can't be charged with money laundering in the state of NY? (As a hypothetical.)

    No, same crime.

    What is this I don't even.
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    V1m wrote: »
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    What jursidiction would they claim? I mean they can revoke his membership of the party, but that's... not going to be a good look. Being a party member doesn't mean you have to quit your job if they dont like it.

    Yes, well that's why I added the edit in parenthesis. Any organization with authority that Mueller recognizes in the Republican panoply. Donors, Russian oligarchs, senators, whomever. Republicans fall in line when they're told to, so why hasn't Mueller?

    Because the bolded is not axiomatic.

    spool32 on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    What jursidiction would they claim? I mean they can revoke his membership of the party, but that's... not going to be a good look. Being a party member doesn't mean you have to quit your job if they dont like it.

    Yes, well that's why I added the edit in parenthesis. Any organization with authority that Mueller recognizes in the Republican panoply. Donors, Russian oligarchs, senators, whomever. Republicans fall in line when they're told to, so why hasn't Mueller?

    What organization would he recognize as have any authority over him there? This doesn't make any sense.

    spool32PLASo It GoesBrodyLostNinjamonikerKristmas KthulhuFencingsaxMagellMartini_PhilosopherMoridin889Mr Fuzzbutt38thDoeRchanenjoshofalltradesMillTNTrooperjdarksunStabbity StyleMan in the MistsJuliusElvenshaeLord_AsmodeusGnome-InterruptusA Kobold's KoboldabotkinElldrenFallout2manemp123
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    It looks like in Manafort’s and Cohen’s cases there is a delightful spread of fed-only and state-only charges so these potential SCOTUS cases may not matter.

    I’m not sure I feel good about the double-jeopardy loophole as-is anyway, even though there are presumably applications now that could prevent even worse abuses of power from our felon-in-chief...

    Captain Inertia on
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    What if they're different crimes? Does being acquitted (or pardoned) of murder in a federal court mean you can't be charged with money laundering in the state of NY? (As a hypothetical.)

    No, same crime.

    That's my point. Mueller charges someone with treason (not literally, but you know what I mean), Trump pardons, state of NY gets everyone for money laundering (or whatever). SCOTUS can go such a lemon with their novel double jeopardy interpretation.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Also we should keep in mind we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. There seems to be a lot of legal maneuvering going on behind closed doors and redactions. Hopefully people with a fuller view of the evidence have a strategy to ensure any justice they wish to pursue has a path forward.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    What if they're different crimes? Does being acquitted (or pardoned) of murder in a federal court mean you can't be charged with money laundering in the state of NY? (As a hypothetical.)

    No, same crime.

    That's my point. Mueller charges someone with treason (not literally, but you know what I mean), Trump pardons, state of NY gets everyone for money laundering (or whatever). SCOTUS can go such a lemon with their novel double jeopardy interpretation.

    Gonna point out that what I've seen actual lawyers saying is that the double jeopardy SCOTUS case has very little to do with the Trump situation. Like taking about how the Knicks are really strong might give the Mets problems. Like, sure, they're both professional sports teams but they don't relate to each other.

    This is ignoring that nobody is sure what Kavanaugh will actually land on that case since it isn't really a left/right question. If it gets overturned RBG is likely to be in the majority if we go by her dissent in the last case on this issue (where she was joined by Thomas.)

    So It GoesmonikerFencingsaxLabelRchanenMillNightslyrjdarksunNiryaElldren
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    shryke wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    So 25 months after Donald Trump was elected, we can say with pretty absolute certainty:

    Donald Trump committed multiple felonies and directed high ranking campaign and Republican party officials to commit felonies involving illegal campaign donations, and collusion with a foreign hostile country for personal enrichment and domestic political campaign interference.

    He's just a walking Constitutional Crisis at this point. The Democratic House will bring investigations, and subpoenas and testimony but ultimately there's already confessions of these crimes by high ranking Republican party and campaign staff that were personally brought in by the President. The choice to not bring up the i-word when the crimes are so overt threatens to set a precedent that a President is above the law. And yet, I'm not sure if its politically the best plan.

    Arggggg

    Well, yes. The biggest subtle looming issue about this whole thing has always been that the public may ultimately simply not care that much the President is a criminal and a traitor who colluded with a hostile foreign power to steal an election and enrich himself. And not like the republican base but the public at large. Democrats spent the last election mostly, it seemed, beating the healthcare drum not the "holy shit the president is a criminal" drum. And anyone talking about the election before hand kept telling them that was the better move.

    Well, IMO, that's 'cause we tried "holy shit the candidate is a garbage person who's totally unfit for the office" back in 2016, and all the garbage people said "fuck yeah, that's our guy".
    So you're right; they don't care, or they approve. Or at least it sure looks that way.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    It looks like in Manafort’s and Cohen’s cases there is a delightful spread of fed-only and state-only charges so these potential SCOTUS cases may not matter.

    I’m not sure I feel good about the double-jeopardy loophole as-is anyway, even though there are presumably applications now that could prevent even worse abuses of power from our felon-in-chief...

    This doctrine is sometbing we are discussing in the SCOTUS thread so go there if you want to talk about it more

    Elvenshae
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    I'd say something about States rights but at this point it's easier to just admit its hypocrisy all the way down.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I’m not sure what Manafort’s play is here.

    His assets have already been seized, so he’s essentially broke.

    Now, INAL, but doesn’t a pardon come complete with an implicit acceptance of guilt, but just with a commuted sentence?

    Meaning that even if Manafort is pardoned, he’s still in the poor house?

    Now, unless I’m gonna wrong (which I could be), then the only two reasons Manafort would seek a pardon is:

    A: He thinks he’ll get his money back.

    Or

    B: He’s afraid of something worse than being broke, like polonium.

    Could also be both, stupidity and cowardice.

    Keep in mind that there a bunch of potential state charges essentially being held in reserve on Manafort in case he gets pardoned—charges which they will rush to file before he can leave prison and flee the country. His chances of not spending the rest of his life in jail are pretty slim.

    The supreme Court is currently setting up case structures to declare state charges after federal to be double jeopardy. Trump will be able to ensure the states can't bring charges after a pardon.

    I'd say something about States rights but at this point it's easier to just admit its hypocrisy all the way down.

    Both of these posts are pretty over the top.

    We don't know how SCOTUS will rule, and there are other ways to go after pardoned criminals.

    Regardless, head to the SCOTUS thread if you want to talk about what they might do.

    monikerspool32BrodyHeirElvenshaeTox
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    What jursidiction would they claim? I mean they can revoke his membership of the party, but that's... not going to be a good look. Being a party member doesn't mean you have to quit your job if they dont like it.

    Yes, well that's why I added the edit in parenthesis. Any organization with authority that Mueller recognizes in the Republican panoply. Donors, Russian oligarchs, senators, whomever. Republicans fall in line when they're told to, so why hasn't Mueller?

    Because Robert meuller is basically the real life equivelant of judge dredd; a man who has dedicated himself wholly to the enforcement of law and doesn't care on which side of the aisle the guilty plunk their asses.

    And simply put, the only people who could reign him in either have no desire to do so (rosenstien) or can't due to exacerbating the reason for the special prosecutor to be doing this in the first place (obstruction of justice).

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    Commander ZoomMorganVLostNinjaNobeardRchanenHarry DresdenForarToxKanaGnome-InterruptusFallout2man
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    V1m wrote: »
    I'm still surprised Mueller hasn't been brought to heel by the Republican National Committee (or some other prominent R group.) He's a Republican right? And aren't they (usually) authoritarians? Why is Mueller still allowed to continue the prosecutions? To keep the masses pacified on the hope of justice?

    What jursidiction would they claim? I mean they can revoke his membership of the party, but that's... not going to be a good look. Being a party member doesn't mean you have to quit your job if they dont like it.

    Yes, well that's why I added the edit in parenthesis. Any organization with authority that Mueller recognizes in the Republican panoply. Donors, Russian oligarchs, senators, whomever. Republicans fall in line when they're told to, so why hasn't Mueller?

    Mueller is a civil service Republican. That is, he is a Republican voter, not a politician. Civil service Republicans run a much wider range in their motivations and agendas than elected Republicans, and they're not affiliated with the party leadership in the same way.

    There's certainly some deplorable ones in there (ICE for starters) but there's plenty in the intelligence community, justice department, and elsewhere who, while I would never vote for them if they ran for office, I have little criticism of the job they're doing now.

    Hevach on
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  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    sanstodo wrote: »
    My big takeaway from all of this is that there is quite a bit still coming.

    Pardon the ignorance, but what new things are we learning that we didn't already suspect? As far as I've seen it seems like most of this is just legal confirmation of things we all reasonably expected to be true months ago.

    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Also we should keep in mind we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. There seems to be a lot of legal maneuvering going on behind closed doors and redactions. Hopefully people with a fuller view of the evidence have a strategy to ensure any justice they wish to pursue has a path forward.

    Yeah, the only real "deadline" for Mueller is November 2020. There is no reason to believe the "he's wrapping up" reporting now compared to before when he was clearly not wrapping things up. We still haven't seen indictments against Kushner or Trump Jr, and we know the latter committed indictable offenses because he literally confessed to them on Twitter. Justice is many things, but swift is rarely among them.

    durandal4532YoutubeRchanenElldren
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

    It's not even so much their power as it is the fact that he's lashed out at them because comey knew something was up and was fired because he refused to put his investigation into russian meddling to bed. Trump has been shit talking Mueller who many of them had the pleasure of working for and is probably one of the best directors the Bureau ever had so the veterans are probably super pissed too.

    Also, Trump is infamous for not listening to his advisors and instead "going with his gut" so these agencies are simply being ignored when they are telling him that he's engaging in dangerous behavior that threatens american interests.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    FencingsaxElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusElldren
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

    It's not even so much their power as it is the fact that he's lashed out at them because comey knew something was up and was fired because he refused to put his investigation into russian meddling to bed. Trump has been shit talking Mueller who many of them had the pleasure of working for and is probably one of the best directors the Bureau ever had so the veterans are probably super pissed too.

    Also, Trump is infamous for not listening to his advisors and instead "going with his gut" so these agencies are simply being ignored when they are telling him that he's engaging in dangerous behavior that threatens american interests.

    That's all just a nicer way of saying he threatens their power. If Trump had treated them nicely and with respect, not threatened their leaders, and got rid of a few pesky restrictions on them, they'd have loved him.

    I'm glad they don't. Mueller is the Elliot Ness that Elliot Ness never was.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    This isn't the biggest of deals. This morning Individual-1 tweeted this:
    AFTER TWO YEARS AND MILLIONS OF PAGES OF DOCUMENTS (and a cost of over $30,000,000), NO COLLUSION!
    But if anyone has a good memory, a week ago we talked about his stupid tweet,
    When will this illegal Joseph McCarthy style Witch Hunt, one that has shattered so many innocent lives, ever end-or will it just go on forever? After wasting more than $40,000,000 (is that possible?), it has proven only one thing-there was NO Collusion with Russia. So Ridiculous!
    I've gotta find that tweet of his where he claimed it was $80 million, just to kinda capture the full scope of his bullshit.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

    It's not even so much their power as it is the fact that he's lashed out at them because comey knew something was up and was fired because he refused to put his investigation into russian meddling to bed. Trump has been shit talking Mueller who many of them had the pleasure of working for and is probably one of the best directors the Bureau ever had so the veterans are probably super pissed too.

    Also, Trump is infamous for not listening to his advisors and instead "going with his gut" so these agencies are simply being ignored when they are telling him that he's engaging in dangerous behavior that threatens american interests.

    That's all just a nicer way of saying he threatens their power. If Trump had treated them nicely and with respect, not threatened their leaders, and got rid of a few pesky restrictions on them, they'd have loved him.

    I'm glad they don't. Mueller is the Elliot Ness that Elliot Ness never was.

    It's not just about power. Trump is a walking intelligence liability and his decisions routinely undermine intelligence work. It took years to convince Congress ZTE was doing shady shit and Trump let them off the hook because Xi asked nicely

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    It makes no sense. Everybody knows you are supposed to increase it over time until it becomes some absurdly high number like a billion dollars.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    It makes no sense. Everybody knows you are supposed to increase it over time until it becomes some absurdly high number like a billion dollars.
    If anything it's indicative of his backing down / backpeddling when he's confronted with the truth. He doesn't do that all the time but when he does, it's sad.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    It makes no sense. Everybody knows you are supposed to increase it over time until it becomes some absurdly high number like a billion dollars.

    These aren't planned escalations in a PR battle, they're unthinking outbursts because he happened to see something on cable tv that day.

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  • JuggernutJuggernut South CurrrrlinaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Gotta say I'm pretty excited about the future of this in a kind of "man we're witnessing history right now, for better or worse. Stupid, stupid history."

    Like, we now know for certain that Trump and co committed a felony early on in the campaign and there's still more waiting in the wings to come out. And, on top of that, we're weeks away from a Democratic Congress that's ready to go straight for the throat. I don't want to be overly optimistic because darkest timeline and all but man, it's kind of hard to see how Trump isn't just hella damn boned. Hyper force mega power boned. The SCO and SDNY are gunning for him and his cronies and based on some of those reports Mueller seems livid and that is not a man you want coming at you mad.

    TL;DR Justice makes me feel... tingly. Tingly in all the right ways.

    Juggernut on
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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx And I said, hol up Registered User regular
    I gotta say, in response to the idea that we're living through major history...

    Living in interesting times really sucks.

    Make. Time.
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  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

    It's not even so much their power as it is the fact that he's lashed out at them because comey knew something was up and was fired because he refused to put his investigation into russian meddling to bed. Trump has been shit talking Mueller who many of them had the pleasure of working for and is probably one of the best directors the Bureau ever had so the veterans are probably super pissed too.

    Also, Trump is infamous for not listening to his advisors and instead "going with his gut" so these agencies are simply being ignored when they are telling him that he's engaging in dangerous behavior that threatens american interests.

    That's all just a nicer way of saying he threatens their power. If Trump had treated them nicely and with respect, not threatened their leaders, and got rid of a few pesky restrictions on them, they'd have loved him.

    I'm glad they don't. Mueller is the Elliot Ness that Elliot Ness never was.

    It's not just about power. Trump is a walking intelligence liability and his decisions routinely undermine intelligence work. It took years to convince Congress ZTE was doing shady shit and Trump let them off the hook because Xi asked nicely

    Correction: he let them off the hook because China agreed to approve Ivanka’s trademarks.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/business/ivanka-trump-china-trademarks.html

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    They way trump isn’t mega boned is the combination of

    “Collusion isn’t a crime!” (That’s where we are at now... all the fox heads are slowly switching to this talking point)

    And “you can’t indict a sitting president!” Which for some dumb reason the left has agreed on based on almost zero things other than some doj suggestion

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    They way trump isn’t mega boned is the combination of

    “Collusion isn’t a crime!” (That’s where we are at now... all the fox heads are slowly switching to this talking point)

    And “you can’t indict a sitting president!” Which for some dumb reason the left has agreed on based on almost zero things other than some doj suggestion
    The left has not agreed on that. Do not mistake 'the left' with "liberal" nor "Democrat." I promise you we're screaming loudest for him to have the book thrown at him and all his cronies and his family imprisoned deep under the earth, forgotten.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

    It's not even so much their power as it is the fact that he's lashed out at them because comey knew something was up and was fired because he refused to put his investigation into russian meddling to bed. Trump has been shit talking Mueller who many of them had the pleasure of working for and is probably one of the best directors the Bureau ever had so the veterans are probably super pissed too.

    Also, Trump is infamous for not listening to his advisors and instead "going with his gut" so these agencies are simply being ignored when they are telling him that he's engaging in dangerous behavior that threatens american interests.

    That's all just a nicer way of saying he threatens their power. If Trump had treated them nicely and with respect, not threatened their leaders, and got rid of a few pesky restrictions on them, they'd have loved him.

    I'm glad they don't. Mueller is the Elliot Ness that Elliot Ness never was.

    It is not the same thing.

    If Obama had personally insulted and fired a commander, or any other Soldier, that I worked with and great respect for, I’d be pissed because he disrespected someone I feel a great deal about, political identity be damned. And it wouldn’t be because of some concept of power loss either.

    These guys in the FBI that are pissed at Trump for being disrespectful to Comey and Mueller are allowed to be upset because he’s an asshole without us thinking it’s just about power.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Trump administration has positioned itself as a foe of the FBI, and they aren’t taking it lying down. That’s why all the Republicans of the FBI are incensed against Trump and his cronies. He is a threat to their power.

    It's not even so much their power as it is the fact that he's lashed out at them because comey knew something was up and was fired because he refused to put his investigation into russian meddling to bed. Trump has been shit talking Mueller who many of them had the pleasure of working for and is probably one of the best directors the Bureau ever had so the veterans are probably super pissed too.

    Also, Trump is infamous for not listening to his advisors and instead "going with his gut" so these agencies are simply being ignored when they are telling him that he's engaging in dangerous behavior that threatens american interests.

    That's all just a nicer way of saying he threatens their power. If Trump had treated them nicely and with respect, not threatened their leaders, and got rid of a few pesky restrictions on them, they'd have loved him.

    I'm glad they don't. Mueller is the Elliot Ness that Elliot Ness never was.

    It is not the same thing.

    If Obama had personally insulted and fired a commander, or any other Soldier, that I worked with and great respect for, I’d be pissed because he disrespected someone I feel a great deal about, political identity be damned. And it wouldn’t be because of some concept of power loss either.

    These guys in the FBI that are pissed at Trump for being disrespectful to Comey and Mueller are allowed to be upset because he’s an asshole without us thinking it’s just about power.

    Trump has insulted the military and individual members of the military, quite often. They don't seem greatly bothered, because he isn't threatening the power of the military.

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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?
    Especially among veterans.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?

    Yup. His support in the military is dropping too.
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/15/support-for-trump-is-fading-among-active-duty-troops-new-poll-shows/
    His support has dropped substantially and polarized.

    Also, Trump doesn't insult and disrespect the military nearly as frequently or as harshly as he does the FBI or the intelligence community.

    Elvenshae
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    shryke wrote: »
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?

    Yup. His support in the military is dropping too.
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/15/support-for-trump-is-fading-among-active-duty-troops-new-poll-shows/
    His support has dropped substantially and polarized.

    Also, Trump doesn't insult and disrespect the military nearly as frequently or as harshly as he does the FBI or the intelligence community.

    Aside from multiple gold star families, widows, the Commander of the Osama raid, criticizing Soldiers currently fighting in Afghanistan, and POW’s, all within the last two years alone, sure I guess Trump has been pretty respectful to the military.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?

    Yup. His support in the military is dropping too.
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/15/support-for-trump-is-fading-among-active-duty-troops-new-poll-shows/
    His support has dropped substantially and polarized.

    Also, Trump doesn't insult and disrespect the military nearly as frequently or as harshly as he does the FBI or the intelligence community.

    Aside from multiple gold star families, widows, the Commander of the Osama raid, criticizing Soldiers currently fighting in Afghanistan, and POW’s, all within the last two years alone, sure I guess Trump has been pretty respectful to the military.

    You forgot "making Navaho code talkers unwittingly part of an attack on a woman he didn't like, in a ceremony meant to honor them and their comrades, in front of a portrait for Andrew f'n Jackson".

    Oh, and don't forget the most recent fobbing off of the WWI memorial in France because it was wet. And the failure to attend Arlington on Veteran's Day.

    Now, while he's not the first President to have done the latter, according to Snopes, with the exception of Bush Sr in 1990, every President since (and including) Bush Sr has either attended Arlington, was away on an official Presidential visit, or doing something else veteran related (attending another memorial service, or visiting with troops on station). Trump is the first President in almost 30 years to go "Naaaah, can't be stuffed.".

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  • AtomikaAtomika technology is your dickfist Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/trump-felony-michael-cohen-paul-manafort-collusion-payment.html
    Federal prosecutors released sentencing recommendations for two alleged criminals who worked closely with Donald Trump: his lawyer Michael Cohen, and campaign manager Paul Manafort. They are filled with damning details. But the most important passage by far is this, about Trump’s fixer: “Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1.”

    The payments in question, as the document explains, concern a payoff to two women who claimed to have affairs with Trump. The payments, according to prosecutors, were intended to influence the campaign, and thereby constituted violations of campaign finance law. They have not formally charged Trump with this crime — it is a sentencing report for Cohen, not Trump — but this is the U.S. Department of Justice calling Trump a criminal.

    The DoJ, on paper, is saying individual-1 committed a felony.

    Now to be fair, that could be any individual who ran a successful 2016 campaign to become president of the United States.

    Like, say, Hillary Clinton

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    shryke wrote: »
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?

    Yup. His support in the military is dropping too.
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/15/support-for-trump-is-fading-among-active-duty-troops-new-poll-shows/
    His support has dropped substantially and polarized.

    Also, Trump doesn't insult and disrespect the military nearly as frequently or as harshly as he does the FBI or the intelligence community.

    Aside from multiple gold star families, widows, the Commander of the Osama raid, criticizing Soldiers currently fighting in Afghanistan, and POW’s, all within the last two years alone, sure I guess Trump has been pretty respectful to the military.

    I never said that but nice strawman there. Trump has not attacked the military on the kind of institutional level to the same degree as he has the intelligence community. That doesn't mean he hasn't been insulting and disrespectful to many members of the military during that time. But he isn't out there attacking them every few days on Twitter.

    shryke on
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Isn't Trump's military support lower than you'd expect for a Republican? It's still high, but not *as* high, I think?

    Yup. His support in the military is dropping too.
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/15/support-for-trump-is-fading-among-active-duty-troops-new-poll-shows/
    His support has dropped substantially and polarized.

    Also, Trump doesn't insult and disrespect the military nearly as frequently or as harshly as he does the FBI or the intelligence community.

    Aside from multiple gold star families, widows, the Commander of the Osama raid, criticizing Soldiers currently fighting in Afghanistan, and POW’s, all within the last two years alone, sure I guess Trump has been pretty respectful to the military.

    I never said that but nice strawman there. Trump has not attacked the military on the kind of institutional level to the same degree as he has the intelligence community. That doesn't mean he hasn't been insulting and disrespectful to many members of the military during that time. But he isn't out there attacking them every few days on Twitter.

    I only use the best and the brightest strawmen.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to be sarcastic there. I sometimes don’t proofread my posts to see if I’m coming across like a dick in my tone.

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