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[WoW] The war fronts moves on Stromgarde!

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Posts

  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    The questing and storylines are definitely the standout of this expansion...but...after a few alts...the following can fuck right off:

    The Flynn escort
    The defense of Brenndam in both quest and daily form
    Anything involving quillboars...ever

    There were times in the questing process that I thought the chain aggro would never end, especially in quillboar nests. It's hard to get in and out of their territory, but I think the graphical update to them is quite nice.

    Also, Vulpera are going to be a playable race at some point, right? I know they're just fox goblins but I still love them. And goblins. Vulpera and goblins, friends forever.

  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    The questing and storylines are definitely the standout of this expansion...but...after a few alts...the following can fuck right off:

    The Flynn escort
    The defense of Brenndam in both quest and daily form
    Anything involving quillboars...ever

    Penguin sledding

    Penguin sledding isn't required for zone story completion, though.

    standing in that one fenced in garden clicking on a water bucket is.


    There's more than one "put out the fire" quest in this xpac, why did they make just this one obnoxious quest "you must click a bucket first every time"? Perplexing.

  • htmhtm Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    hippofant wrote: »
    htm wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    Like the Stromgarde scenario: people are doing that for the 370 gear, the 340 gear, and maybe enchanting crystals, and that's it. Or the expeditions, just for the random loot drops, AP, and maybe rep, and that's it.

    So you've got game systems designed in a way that sort of consume themselves. It's not fun, so therefore put a big loot pinata at the end to make people do it, then they get all their loot and stop playing, so put in a buncha RNG/treadmill/grind nonsense to keep them going, but it just gets all strung out at the end.

    I don't think Stromgarde is a treadmill at all. All of its significant rewards, including for the gathering phase, are front-loaded. So, every three weeks, it provides a quick burst of rep, war resources, AP, and a piece of Heroic-raiding level piece of gear. That seems like a pretty good deal for something that's roflstomp easy.

    At the moment, people are grinding it, but that's really only because we're so early in BfA that 340 gear is actually good. The War Front grinding frenzy will probably be over once the Alliance is done this week. And in the future, I think War Fronts are going to be a nice QoL feature for gearing alts. Content that lets you get an alt up to raiding ilvl in two to four hours of grinding is maybe the most alt-friendly feature Blizz has every added.

    As to whether it's fun or not--well, that's sort of subjective. I enjoy it on DPS because it's basically 15 to 20 minutes of going ham on some burly but not especially dangerous PvE enemies. As a tank or heals, though, I imagine it could be a chore.

    Anyway, I like War Fronts overall. Not my favorite piece of WoW content, but I approve of the design direction. I'd much rather do cycling content with front-loaded rewards than suffer through the Daily Heroic like we did in Legion. The Legion Daily Heroic was the worst sort of treadmill: really boring and easy but absolutely necessary because the reward was essential.

    I wasn't saying that the Stromgarde scenario was a treadmill, but rather they had to treadmill-icize it because most people aren't going to sign up to do it multiple times.* So to get people to do it, here's loot. But that strategy is limited in effectiveness, because once people get the loot, then they're done, and said loot reward to incentivize people doing the scenario in turn disincentivizes people from doing other content that rewards loot, unless they up those rewards, and that's where a large meta-treadmill begins to appear. Like, we're already up to 370 ilvl, as gear that's easily accessible for casual players, because ilvl needs to be varied to stratify the different content rewards to get people to do all the content.


    * In this regard, I can't solo the Stromgarde scenario, at all. I couldn't solo Legion heroics at the end either, but I could effectively carry a group, which made it a lot more casual fun/a lot less infuriation from dealing with idiots.

    But I don't think it's actually been "treadmill-icized", unless I misunderstand what you mean. In fact, it's kind of an anti-treadmill. It encourages you to get off of it after a single 30 minute jog every three weeks. The first time you run it per reset, the reward value drops off so much that there's no ilvl justification for doing it again unless you're gearing an alt.

    In terms of loot and incentives, the most similar thing to War Fronts from Legion and before is probably Timewalking. Like War Fronts...

    ...Timewalking also cycles into play on a multi-week schedule.
    ...Timewalking also awards a single Heroic raiding piece that's disproportionately better in ilvl vs. its difficulty.
    ...Timewalking also provides catch-up gear if you're willing to grind it.

    Timewalking has been in the game for a long time. Do you think that it's caused players to stop doing other content because of the relatively high quality of its loot? It's definitely an opportunity cost in time (much more so than War Fronts are, in fact), but... most people seem to find it an amusing additional diversion and not a substitute for other group activities.

    Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion and I'm not trying to troll you. I'm just a bit boggled by the idea that War Fronts are bad for the game. It's exactly the sort of optional PvE content that fits in well around raiding and M+. Optional, easy, fun (subjectively), and relatively rewarding. I have lots of opinions about how Stromgarde could have been better executed, but... it's a nice first attempt and I'm really looking forward to future War Fronts.

    htm on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    @Lucascraft Here's our damage taken logs from our first Heroic G'huun kill in the first week. I have some more recent logs too, but I thought our first kill might be a bit more useful as our ilvl wasn't crazy good.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/16kjXzCZW9hpF3La#fight=39&type=damage-taken

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    By the way, among those datamined spoilers, the thing about the Night Elves & Tyrande:
    Ohhhhh jeeze, I really wonder what the long-term damage / implications are for that. Somebody is about to go evil and break up the longest-running WoW couple.

  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    Actually, here's my question: would a hypothetical vulpera allied race be horde or alliance? I can see it going either way.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    soylenth wrote: »
    Actually, here's my question: would a hypothetical vulpera allied race be horde or alliance? I can see it going either way.

    Why would they go alliance over horde?

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Kevin CristKevin Crist I make the devil hit his knees and say the 'our father'Registered User regular
    Foxes to horde

    Sneks go Ally.

    acpRlGW.jpg
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  • RanlinRanlin Oh gosh Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Did you get him out of the wall?

    Phase 1 is pretty easy for us. And it isn't bad at all. It's only when he comes out of the wall that the damage just goes bonkers.

    On our best attempt, we hit him with the beam of light and got him down to probably around 15% before the wipe. But at that point we had burned 2 or 3 battle rezzes on the tanks, and our damage taken was just insane. I'm pretty sure all of our healers were running on empty.

    I feel like there's gotta be something we are missing that will make it less painful. But I dunno. Maybe this fight is just a tank check.

    Both tanks are remembering to clear their dot stacks with the rest of the raid, right? That and taunting as frequently as possible can reduce the damage, though it can make the fart cloud dropping debuff more obnoxious. Better than dying I guess, though.

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    htm wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    htm wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    Like the Stromgarde scenario: people are doing that for the 370 gear, the 340 gear, and maybe enchanting crystals, and that's it. Or the expeditions, just for the random loot drops, AP, and maybe rep, and that's it.

    So you've got game systems designed in a way that sort of consume themselves. It's not fun, so therefore put a big loot pinata at the end to make people do it, then they get all their loot and stop playing, so put in a buncha RNG/treadmill/grind nonsense to keep them going, but it just gets all strung out at the end.

    I don't think Stromgarde is a treadmill at all. All of its significant rewards, including for the gathering phase, are front-loaded. So, every three weeks, it provides a quick burst of rep, war resources, AP, and a piece of Heroic-raiding level piece of gear. That seems like a pretty good deal for something that's roflstomp easy.

    At the moment, people are grinding it, but that's really only because we're so early in BfA that 340 gear is actually good. The War Front grinding frenzy will probably be over once the Alliance is done this week. And in the future, I think War Fronts are going to be a nice QoL feature for gearing alts. Content that lets you get an alt up to raiding ilvl in two to four hours of grinding is maybe the most alt-friendly feature Blizz has every added.

    As to whether it's fun or not--well, that's sort of subjective. I enjoy it on DPS because it's basically 15 to 20 minutes of going ham on some burly but not especially dangerous PvE enemies. As a tank or heals, though, I imagine it could be a chore.

    Anyway, I like War Fronts overall. Not my favorite piece of WoW content, but I approve of the design direction. I'd much rather do cycling content with front-loaded rewards than suffer through the Daily Heroic like we did in Legion. The Legion Daily Heroic was the worst sort of treadmill: really boring and easy but absolutely necessary because the reward was essential.

    I wasn't saying that the Stromgarde scenario was a treadmill, but rather they had to treadmill-icize it because most people aren't going to sign up to do it multiple times.* So to get people to do it, here's loot. But that strategy is limited in effectiveness, because once people get the loot, then they're done, and said loot reward to incentivize people doing the scenario in turn disincentivizes people from doing other content that rewards loot, unless they up those rewards, and that's where a large meta-treadmill begins to appear. Like, we're already up to 370 ilvl, as gear that's easily accessible for casual players, because ilvl needs to be varied to stratify the different content rewards to get people to do all the content.


    * In this regard, I can't solo the Stromgarde scenario, at all. I couldn't solo Legion heroics at the end either, but I could effectively carry a group, which made it a lot more casual fun/a lot less infuriation from dealing with idiots.

    But I don't think it's actually been "treadmill-icized", unless I misunderstand what you mean. In fact, it's kind of an anti-treadmill. It encourages you to get off of it after a single 30 minute jog every three weeks. The first time you run it per reset, the reward value drops off so much that there's no ilvl justification for doing it again unless you're gearing an alt.

    In terms of loot and incentives, the most similar thing to War Fronts from Legion and before is probably Timewalking. Like War Fronts...

    ...Timewalking also cycles into play on a multi-week schedule.
    ...Timewalking also awards a single Heroic raiding piece that's disproportionately better in ilvl vs. its difficulty.
    ...Timewalking also provides catch-up gear if you're willing to grind it.

    Timewalking has been in the game for a long time. Do you think that it's caused players to stop doing other content because of the relatively high quality of its loot? It's definitely an opportunity cost in time (much more so than War Fronts are, in fact), but... most people seem to find it an amusing additional diversion and not a substitute for other group activities.

    Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion and I'm not trying to troll you. I'm just a bit boggled by the idea that War Fronts are bad for the game. It's exactly the sort of optional PvE content that fits in well around raiding and M+. Optional, easy, fun (subjectively), and relatively rewarding. I have lots of opinions about how Stromgarde could have been better executed, but... it's a nice first attempt and I'm really looking forward to future War Fronts.

    Naw, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not being particularly clear either, I admit. I watched some videos from Noxxious and Bellular about the state of BFA recently, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it myself. I don't think the warfront scenario is the treadmill. But it's part of a larger treadmill.


    I think it was Bellular who put the idea in my head that WoW's systems are over-engineered, and it really struck me how true that was and how it spreads out to touch all the other parts of WoW's design. So, for Warfronts, they could have NOT put in any gear at all - those transmog items could have been left purely transmog items at whatever low item level they wanted, like that mace from Uldir that had to get upgraded, right? - but they didn't. They put 340/370 gear in it. Why? Because people probably wouldn't do the scenario, or at least not enough people would do the scenario without those rewards.

    Which, okay, by itself, is completely okay. But heroic dungeons reward 325 gear and mythic dungeons reward 340 gear, and people were climbing into warfronts right from the start. So Blizzard has to put a 320 minimum item level to entry to the scenario, as people were asking, "Well why would anybody do dungeons? Doesn't this scenario completely invalidate all heroic and mythic dungeons?" (Though you can still just manually fly to the warfront and gather the 340 items yourselves.) And then these scenarios become a very carefully controlled experience: you go in at 320 and you leave at 340. And maybe you tap it once a month if you're sub-370.

    And BFA has a lot of this going on. Regular questing dumps you off somewhere near 290... but rare elites only drop up to 278, I think? Then you do WQs and regular dungeons up to 305, then WQs and heroic dungeons up to 320 or so, then WQs and the scenario and mythic dungeons until 340. All this content, you can target rewards: WQs that drop what you want, dungeon bosses that have the gear you want, scenarios until you fill your slots, etc., but all of it is limited to a specific level range. Once you get past that level range, there are no more rewards for doing any of that content.

    Then you have the high-level content: raids, M+, and PVP. But none of that has targetable drops. You're stuck purely RNGing it, or - with some Arena changes I understand they made recently - stuck with the specific loot rotation Blizzard has created.


    Sooo I guess the warfront scenario isn't part of the treadmill. It's more part of a conveyor belt that drops you off on the treadmill. It's just this thing you do a few times on your character at a specific point in time in your character's lifespan, and then you leave it behind forever. And that's what I see in Blizzard's content design: there's content that's not as much of a treadmill, but it's only relevant for a short period of time in your character's life, and then it drops you off on the treadmill. And I dodn't totally get why: why can't warfront gear just scale to your ilvl, whether you're low or high? Why can't M+ dungeons drop azerite pieces? Why can't rare elites drop items relevant to your level? And the answer is always, because they don't want you to progress too quickly or that there's some other content you're supposed to be doing instead, instead of the content you want to do. Instead of just making all content equally accessible and rewarding, WoW shunts you off to specific content that always strictly controls the pace at which you can progress.

    I dunno. This isn't even really a complaint. I don't know what it is. Maybe this is just the nature of MMOs, that they must waste your time or limit your progression rate in some way. I don't think warfronts are part of that problem, but I can't help but think some of their implementation is actually limited by the fact that they must be subservient to the treadmill upon which WoW's monetization model depends, at least from Blizzard's POV.

    I mean, nowadays, I just do my handful of M+ dungeons a week for the chest, I do my emissary WQs, and that's it. Which is fine and all and easy on my playtime, but it's also... there's nothing else for me to do, even if I wanted to do it, that's remotely rewarding. I don't get anything from the scenario any more, I can only raid twice a week (or whatever), etc.. It's a very slimmed down experience, overall. No, I don't feel the pressure to do a ton of stuff... but I also don't have the motivation to do stuff either.

    hippofant on
  • ZenyatooZenyatoo Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Did you get him out of the wall?

    Phase 1 is pretty easy for us. And it isn't bad at all. It's only when he comes out of the wall that the damage just goes bonkers.

    On our best attempt, we hit him with the beam of light and got him down to probably around 15% before the wipe. But at that point we had burned 2 or 3 battle rezzes on the tanks, and our damage taken was just insane. I'm pretty sure all of our healers were running on empty.

    I feel like there's gotta be something we are missing that will make it less painful. But I dunno. Maybe this fight is just a tank check.

    hi hello I tank for shamblers malk, we killed ghuun, very super definitely pro raiders etc.

    Ghuun does in fact hurt, but his damage is honestly not as high as say, Zul phase 2 in my experience.

    The best advice I can give is that first off you need to be taunt swapping super often. Ghuun is doing a margok, and his damage is increasing as he melees the active tank. Taunting drops the stacks. Because of this, you can both basically taunt off cooldown and keep his stacks as low as possible. Contrasted to say, vectis, where you're specifically waiting for your co-tank to reach X stacks before the taunt. The lower his stacks the less incoming damage.

    Typically i'll have ghuun until he does the debuff that forces me to run out of melee, as soon as I get that debuff my cotank taunts, then I will get back into melee and taunt again. That's genuinely only about 7 seconds of cotank tanking before I taunt, and even then I feel like ghuun is getting ~4 stacks? So you really really do have to taunt often.

    The second thing is that the tanks are getting the same DoT that the raid is, but it can be a real pain in the butt to cleanse it. I do not know how/when/if my cotank cleanses his, but for me I will try to cleanse my debuff twice during the second phase. The main issue with the cleansing of the debuff is that the more stacks cleansed, the stronger the add it spawns. Because of this our guild tends to try and limit the # of stacks we cleanse until the "final" add, which we all just cleanse everything in, and then hit the beam, which stuns and kills the add, thus meaning we can make the biggest add possible and not care at all. If your guild is cleansing too many stacks and your adds are too beefy they will just outright murder you. Also to be clear the tank who holds the add should be the one who isnt running out of melee all the time for standard reasons.

    Here are some logs if you want to look at our damage taken and compare or whatever

    First attempts on ghuun (wipes)
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/nyLWCQ6f1FHrG8jd#fight=50&type=damage-taken

    First kill on ghuun the following week (hooray)
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JXLcBQ4xkz6bw1CT#fight=16&type=damage-taken

    Most recent ghuun kill
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pkTwdQNFRzLgrfXM#fight=13&type=damage-taken

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Also keep in mind the majority of the tank damage is magical - the DOT you have is magical, and the part of G'huun's melee attacks that is increasing with his stacks is also magical.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    More Azerite Trait changes coming down the pipe next week. This is how the list and numbers all look right now but the blue post in question notes that they can and easily will change by the time Tuesday comes around for deployment to live servers.
    Blessed Sanctuary bonus increased by 10%.
    Burst of Life healing increased by 20%.
    Craggy Bark bonus increased by 15%.
    Dauntless Divinity block increased by 20%.
    Depth of the Shadows healing increased by 20%.
    Ephemeral Recovery mana increased by 15%.
    Gory Regeneration healing increase increased by 15%.
    Judicious Defense absorption increased by 10%.
    Masterful Instincts bonuses increased by 10%.
    Permeating Glow bonus increased by 15%.
    Reinforced Plating Strength increased by 10%.
    Revel in Pain absorption increased by 20%.
    Savior threshold increased to 50% health (was 35%).
    Soothing Waters healing increased by 10%.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    a bunch of increases?!?!

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    a bunch of increases?!?!

    To a buncha underused tank and healing traits. I'm not sure how much of a difference they'll make, honestly. A lot of the healing traits on that list are considered undesirable because the spells just aren't used enough to be worth it.

    Like... buffing Shadow Mend? Do Disc Priests even use Shadow Mend? There's no level they can buff that trait to that would make Shadow Mend worthwhile to use that wouldn't just break Discipline with how OP Shadow Mend was.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement
    Oh good now I get to make a guess.
    Ner'zhul is coming back?

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    did bwonsamdi fuckin' quote riddick in the ptr

    https://youtu.be/ibkcOmQ5gSY

    liEt3nH.png
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    To be honest the real problem with azerite traits is that they are universally just all too weak and all too insignificant. Even the best traits really don't make a difference.

    There are two separate attributes here. One is Azerite trait balance relative to other traits, which is the goal they're working on. The other is the trait balance relative to character power, which is shocking, right now. They're balancing all traits to a baseline average level of power, but that baseline average is far too low. All traits need to be 2-3x as potent as they are.

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    a bunch of increases?!?!

    To a buncha underused tank and healing traits. I'm not sure how much of a difference they'll make, honestly. A lot of the healing traits on that list are considered undesirable because the spells just aren't used enough to be worth it.

    Like... buffing Shadow Mend? Do Disc Priests even use Shadow Mend? There's no level they can buff that trait to that would make Shadow Mend worthwhile to use that wouldn't just break Discipline with how OP Shadow Mend was.

    it might be a decent five main trait; you don't use shadow mend that often but sometimes you need a big heal

    most of those traits are pretty blah though; like the mistweaver one will still be bad, etc.

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    it was the smallest on the list but
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  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    To be honest the real problem with azerite traits is that they are universally just all too weak and all too insignificant. Even the best traits really don't make a difference.

    There are two separate attributes here. One is Azerite trait balance relative to other traits, which is the goal they're working on. The other is the trait balance relative to character power, which is shocking, right now. They're balancing all traits to a baseline average level of power, but that baseline average is far too low. All traits need to be 2-3x as potent as they are.

    But if traits were that powerful, then people can be downgraded moving from low ilvl items with all the slots unlocked to high ilvl items with just some slots unlocked.

    Which is supposedly undesirable for Blizzard, but just ... yeah. I dunno how this is supposed to work at all.

    hippofant on
  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing

  • The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    a bunch of increases?!?!

    To a buncha underused tank and healing traits. I'm not sure how much of a difference they'll make, honestly. A lot of the healing traits on that list are considered undesirable because the spells just aren't used enough to be worth it.

    Like... buffing Shadow Mend? Do Disc Priests even use Shadow Mend? There's no level they can buff that trait to that would make Shadow Mend worthwhile to use that wouldn't just break Discipline with how OP Shadow Mend was.

    Shadow mend is the only straight up heal they have and can be cast when lockes out of holy so its a good spell

    That has nothing to do with the azerite trait tho

    icGJy2C.png
  • PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    Yeah, I was going to say, Shadow Mend's actually good for Disc, since it lets them actually directly heal. The only other way they can is via Penance, and that has a cooldown. The "downside" DOT can basically be worked around with bubbles/damage absorbs.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing
    Ah shit you're right. D:

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    hippofant wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    a bunch of increases?!?!

    To a buncha underused tank and healing traits. I'm not sure how much of a difference they'll make, honestly. A lot of the healing traits on that list are considered undesirable because the spells just aren't used enough to be worth it.

    Like... buffing Shadow Mend? Do Disc Priests even use Shadow Mend? There's no level they can buff that trait to that would make Shadow Mend worthwhile to use that wouldn't just break Discipline with how OP Shadow Mend was.

    Shadow mend is the only straight up heal they have and can be cast when lockes out of holy so its a good spell

    That has nothing to do with the azerite trait tho
    PMAvers wrote: »
    Yeah, I was going to say, Shadow Mend's actually good for Disc, since it lets them actually directly heal. The only other way they can is via Penance, and that has a cooldown. The "downside" DOT can basically be worked around with bubbles/damage absorbs.

    It's not actually cast though. Looking at Mythic raid logs for Disc Priests, it just doesn't get cast. A couple times on Taloc at most. It gets cast ... like 12 times at most on Mythic MOTHER. PW:S and Penance are like 3 times as often. Smite maybe 5 times as often. Any trait that only buffs Shadow Mend is going to have to be REALLY good to be worth it for Disc priests to pick up over traits that buff those powers.

    It's like that trait that buffs Heal. If a Holy Priest is casting Heal, they're not that concerned with HPS at that time and so their Heal hitting for more isn't going to really do much. I feel like some of these abilities they're targeting with traits, they need to find some other way to target them. Otherwise, the line between the abilities not being good enough to be worth taking the trait and the ability just taking over entirely is pretty thin.

    hippofant on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Disc priests use shadow mend a lot more in M+ environments.

    The thing with Shadow Mend is that it's a single target heal. There are times when you need single target healing, but if you're in a raid with other healers, every other healing spec is better than Disc at doing it, so they'll never do it. But if you're in a M+, you're the only one available to do anything at all, so you will use it.

  • Mai-KeroMai-Kero Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing
    Ah shit you're right. D:

    I have a real bad feeling that's right.
    The only way I can see that going without Sylvanas being a raid boss is some sort of 'Yeah I N'Zoth was trying to corrupt me and push us in to war, but I knew about it and couldn't be corrupted because I have the will... of the Forsaken. So I strung him along (sorry Teldrassil!) to get into a position where we could team up again and kill him.

    That would also be bad, but I guess I'd prefer it over the alternative of another old god corrupted war boss.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning LoserdomRegistered User regular
    Mai-Kero wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing
    Ah shit you're right. D:

    I have a real bad feeling that's right.
    The only way I can see that going without Sylvanas being a raid boss is some sort of 'Yeah I N'Zoth was trying to corrupt me and push us in to war, but I knew about it and couldn't be corrupted because I have the will... of the Forsaken. So I strung him along (sorry Teldrassil!) to get into a position where we could team up again and kill him.

    That would also be bad, but I guess I'd prefer it over the alternative of another old god corrupted war boss.

    There might be something more to it.
    I wouldn't be against it ultimately being N'Zoth, as long it first uses its supposed manipulative skills to fake Horde and Alliance out as to who's behind everything. After an initial attempt to pretend as though the other side is behind it, perhaps it would make it seem as though Yogg-Saron is beginning to regenerate, or that Ner'zhul and Arthas's mingled spirit were reaching out from the shards of Frostmourne even before the Blades of the Ebon Prince were forged--and now that those have been depowered, they're free again. Or it could even make it seem as though Sylvanas herself manipulated the loa into telling Vol'jin it had to be her. That last would be especially good for furthering the war.

    If it got desperate enough as all its false leads were uncovered and nixed, it might even clue the Horde and Alliance into the burgeoning naga threat and make them believe that it was Azshara who was behind all of it--hey, if anyone could, Azshara could, right?--without, of course, telling the queen. So what if they kill her, after all? It's not like the Horde and Alliance haven't fallen to stupid petty war the instant an existential threat was defeated. It can start again. It has forever.

    The trick then would be Azshara uncovering its manipulations and then trying to play the victim, to get the Horde and Alliance to do her bidding in destroying N'zoth. They might not have killed him, after all, but these mortals did prove capable of imprisoning Sargeras and defeating the Burning Legion, as well as defeating C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and the remnants of Y'shaarj. They're still just pawns, of course, but powerful pawns. The best kind.

    Until they get all the way up the board.

    So I expect it to be revealed by 8.15 that it's N'zoth behind Azshara and everyone to know it.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Mai-Kero wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing
    Ah shit you're right. D:

    I have a real bad feeling that's right.
    The only way I can see that going without Sylvanas being a raid boss is some sort of 'Yeah I N'Zoth was trying to corrupt me and push us in to war, but I knew about it and couldn't be corrupted because I have the will... of the Forsaken. So I strung him along (sorry Teldrassil!) to get into a position where we could team up again and kill him.

    That would also be bad, but I guess I'd prefer it over the alternative of another old god corrupted war boss.
    This is exactly what I've been thinking and just talked to my roomie about. It's also the only way I'd be happy with the writing for BfA. If it's anything else then fuuuuuck Blizzard's writing.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing

    Probably. If theyre smart this is them building a post legion post old god big bad

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • EnclaveofGnomesEnclaveofGnomes Registered User regular
    So...exactly Garrosh 2.0 is looking likely.

    Man...this expansion has worked very hard to get me to drop it.

  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Disc priests use shadow mend a lot more in M+ environments.

    The thing with Shadow Mend is that it's a single target heal. There are times when you need single target healing, but if you're in a raid with other healers, every other healing spec is better than Disc at doing it, so they'll never do it. But if you're in a M+, you're the only one available to do anything at all, so you will use it.

    Yeah. But even there, SM is used so situationally that the azerite trait would need to be pretty amazing to have a real impact.

    MSL59.jpg
  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing
    I mean, was this not the expected result? How is that bad writing? I mean if the old gods came in an expansion any other way, most people likely would claim it was a retcon because they aren't supposed to be direct.

    The only reason I could think this would be a bad direction for the story is because it kind of happened before? But I mean, stepping on storyline toes is going to happen after 14+ years

  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Voljin spoilers
    looks like the horde are getting a scenario where you go around with Bain and Voljin trying to figure out why he's back and why he cant remember who told him to make Sylvanas warchief.

    You talk to Bwonsamdi, Bolvar and Eyir and they all deny involvement

    oh gee hmm i guess
    it's probably goddamn N'Zoth trying to push the Horde and Alliance into war

    i swear to fuck if it's that blizzard can fuck write off with their garbage writing
    I mean, was this not the expected result? How is that bad writing? I mean if the old gods came in an expansion any other way, most people likely would claim it was a retcon because they aren't supposed to be direct.

    The only reason I could think this would be a bad direction for the story is because it kind of happened before? But I mean, stepping on storyline toes is going to happen after 14+ years

    Because
    Blizzard has done OLD GOD CORRUPTION AND/OR MANIPULATION as a plot device like seventeen goddamn times. At this point repeating that over and over whenever they need a convenient reason for something is extremely bad writing.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I don't think it was N'Zoth.

  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Javen wrote: »
    I don't think it was N'Zoth.

    It isn't. Every piece of writing so far makes it clear that the Old Gods are very very not cool with Sylvanas. In Three Sisters the Void whispers are all but terrified of Sylvanas. Given that behavior, it seems unlikely they influenced Vol'jin to appoint Sylvanas.

    A more likely answer, imo, is that the culpable party is an as of yet unknown party. I've said this before, but the Death part of the Warcraft cosmology is conspicuously empty. It has no "native" representatives like the Naaru. Blizzard needs plot hooks and potential antagonists now that the Burning Legion is gone and we're rapidly clearing the board of old hooks like Azshara.. Death, and the Shadowlands, are the most fertile ground for that. They can make up shit without retconning anything.

    Fiaryn on
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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    I would love it if they actually expanded the setting and introduced new concepts and threats and places. That's my favourite thing about Drustvar, it's got all this brand new lore and story possibilities.

    But it's probably N'Zoth.

  • DacDac Registered User regular
    "None of what we did was our own idea! We were being manipulated into doing the bad things we did!" is the most lazy hack piece of shit explanation ever, and it's Blizzard's constant go-to.

    With all the character work they've been doing this expansion, that BETTER NOT BE THE ANSWER.

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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    I don't think it was N'Zoth.

    It isn't. Every piece of writing so far makes it clear that the Old Gods are very very not cool with Sylvanas. In Three Sisters the Void whispers are all but terrified of Sylvanas. Given that behavior, it seems unlikely they influenced Vol'jin to appoint Sylvanas.

    A more likely answer, imo, is that the culpable party is an as of yet unknown party. I've said this before, but the Death part of the Warcraft cosmology is conspicuously empty. It has no "native" representatives like the Naaru. Blizzard needs plot hooks and potential antagonists now that the Burning Legion is gone and we're rapidly clearing the board of old hooks like Azshara.. Death, and the Shadowlands, are the most fertile ground for that. They can make up shit without retconning anything.

    There’s a YouTuber out there that pointed out that Bwonsamdi is not the only death loa, and another one is referenced in the Traveler story (it also appeared for a while on one of the tablets that the Sandfury had).

    https://youtu.be/VYqgHx4PyNo

    Apparently this one is dangerous enough that even Odyn didn’t want to tangle with it.

This discussion has been closed.