but gambit matches take too long for the huge gap between value of winning and losing
losing a gambit match is in 95% of cases a complete waste of 20-30 minutes
I hit Legend rank early last week. One day I played like 4-5 games one night. Because of losses that time investment got me less then 200 points closer to hitting Reset.
About 2 hours of playing Gambit, ~6% progress towards the next level.
It's just a huge waste of time if you aren't winning. I'm not even sure you get good reward drops from the game ending if you don't win.
My problem with gambit at the moment is that the mode is too limited and has too little reason to actually do it. Going through the effort of resetting to get a curated weapon isn't a good enough motivator to play it for any extended amount of time. Getting the title isn't much better for a lot of people either.
The reason to play games if you aren't chasing the title and the ghost and all that is the guns. Gambit has some really great guns and you only get them by playing and completing bounties and ranking up.
Unless you get bad RNG and then you just don't get them period.
I'm on my way to Reset #3 and have only ever gotten a single Hazard of the Cast.
But when the mode becomes a slog for a lot of people what you end up with in reality is people doing their daily and weekly for potential rolls on weapons/armor and maybe a bounty if they happen to complete it in that time, then they don't play any more until the daily/weekly rolls around again.
I mean, sure, but that's kind of beside the point. You play Gambit because you like it, because you are chasing the titles and such or because you want the guns. This is no different then any other mode.
Why do strikes unless you want the rewards or the titles? No reason. No reason at all.
I understand your point and you're not wrong - but in practice it feels completely different. I like the idea of Gambit, I even like the gameplay loop. But playing by yourself or when you can tell your buddies are sick of the whole process saps a ton of the enjoyment out of it. Especially when the game play loop itself has so cemented itself into a particular flow.
The mode desperately needs either more mechanics at the boss or some sort of random modifier system in matches that changes up how you have to approach the flow of the mode.
i think the problem for me is that people have figured out the meta now, or however you want to term it, and you either do it right or you're disorganized and get stomped
i have very rarely had a match that felt close one way or the other in the last two or three weeks
it's the iron banner problem writ large
there's just no competition. you know very early on whether you're going to win or lose, and then you just have to wait for it to resolve
Edit: This has been said a few posts earlier and discussed, so disregard if wanted.
Not trying to be that guy, but interacting with the game mode is not a waste of time.
You're playing the game to enjoy it. While having rewards is great and I understand that is sucks to lose and not get anything, saying you're wasting 30 minutes playing the game mode doesn't really hold water. It's like saying on Sunday I wasted 5 hours raiding and didn't get any upgrades. You could make the argument that I got a banner and a triumph, but next Sunday when we raid again and get no upgrades I still wouldn't count that as wasted time.
Were you not having fun during those games? If not, they why are you playing that mode anyway?
SuperRuper on
PSN: ChemENGR
+2
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Edit: This has been said a few posts earlier and discussed, so disregard if wanted.
Not trying to be that guy, but interacting with the game mode is not a waste of time.
You're playing the game to enjoy it. While having rewards is great and I understand that is sucks to lose and not get anything, saying you're wasting 30 minutes playing the game mode doesn't really hold water. It's like saying on Sunday I wasted 5 hours raiding and didn't get any upgrades. You could make the argument that I got a banner and a triumph, but next Sunday when we raid again and get no upgrades I still wouldn't count that as wasted time.
Were you not having fun during those games? If not, they why are you playing that mode anyway?
i literally only play gambit when i have to at this point
there are things you basically have to do in this game if you don't want to handicap yourself in areas completely unrelated to the thing you're doing (like raising your power level requires basically playing all aspects of the game even if you don't like some). now that my power level is high enough, i have no reason to play gambit that outweighs how not fun it is to play gambit
raiding isn't always rewarding gear-wise, but (last wish at least) is a fun experience even when it's challenging
take a raid like spire and it's just not fun at any point and so i stopped raiding because of it
but also, for myself i'm only talking about solo queuing
i can do any activity in the game with a team of pals and have a good time
solo queuing is a miserable experience in a lot of those same areas
So I ended up going back to Y1 Striker Knockout Titan in pvp.
I keep having certain issues with both Protector and Commander Titan in crucible. Protector means I want to prioritize using bubble supers, but if I don't use Saint-14, the bubble doesn't give the extended overshields. Plus my neutral with only one grenade suffers. I want to also use melee overshield because my Saint-14 has Hands-On. but when I do get the melee kills, which is seldom due to not enough Impact mods, I don't seem to get a lot of use out of the overshield. Plus bubbles do not always translate into swinging games when it's not clash and when Blade Barrage/new supers exist.
Commander with Armamentarium is better neutral, but is definitely only situationally good. There are times when I get crispy 2 or even 3 kills with one grenade on bunched up targets because of Controlled Demolition, but otherwise it isn't super strong.
Knockout actually feels better to me now that it did in Y1 because I like to run a full-auto shotty which does leave people at critical very often and in prime distance for a Knockout punch to seal the kill. Just need a Prodigal or Ancient Apocalypse to drop with Hands-On and maybe a new Armamentarium. Double nades plus Knockout is
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I mean, you play the modes you don't love for the rewards. See me and crucible lately.
Gambit is frustrating because it's twice the time investment, typically with outcomes obvious way earlier, and where individual performance metrics aren't emphasized. Hell, most of the ways to get numbers to be all "I personally did well" are actively harmful to the rest of your team.
Even more than normal crucible it needs a mercenary playlist.
I don’t think the team versus randos divide is as bad as a lot of people make out in gambit but there’s a phenomenon I’ve been noticing lately and I can’t tell if it’s real or just my imagination.
It seems to me that very frequently I will lose a close first round, and then in the second round someone in our team will stop trying. I guess the logic is that we can’t win, so we should just get it over and done with and work on bounties. A lot of the time it seems if you lose the first round someone will just start camping the invasion portal
Edit: This has been said a few posts earlier and discussed, so disregard if wanted.
Not trying to be that guy, but interacting with the game mode is not a waste of time.
You're playing the game to enjoy it. While having rewards is great and I understand that is sucks to lose and not get anything, saying you're wasting 30 minutes playing the game mode doesn't really hold water. It's like saying on Sunday I wasted 5 hours raiding and didn't get any upgrades. You could make the argument that I got a banner and a triumph, but next Sunday when we raid again and get no upgrades I still wouldn't count that as wasted time.
Were you not having fun during those games? If not, they why are you playing that mode anyway?
I mean, it all comes down to what you value and find enjoyment in from the game. Destiny, like a great many games of MMOish leanings tries to actively incentivize getting everyone to at least dip their toe in certain modes by putting rewards there that might be desirable or usable in some other capacity that one does enjoy. I generally enjoy playing Destiny in that manner, a little bit of everything and getting thusly rewarded. However, it isn't terribly hard to understand why someone might engage in an activity that isn't the most fun for them if there is a reward they covet enough. Then when you don't get said rewards it amplifies the "pain" of having to do the activity anyway.
I'd argue that the raid is probably a poor example as it is an end game activity a very large portion of the population *wants* to engage in. Even more so if they are doing it with a group of friends and not a random LFG group. You could find enjoyment from the loot, from the mechanics, from hanging out with your friends etc. So that even if you don't get loot there are other avenues of enjoyment.
With something like Gambit, which isn't nearly as multifaceted, it makes enjoyment far more binary for a lot of people.
Edit: This has been said a few posts earlier and discussed, so disregard if wanted.
Not trying to be that guy, but interacting with the game mode is not a waste of time.
You're playing the game to enjoy it. While having rewards is great and I understand that is sucks to lose and not get anything, saying you're wasting 30 minutes playing the game mode doesn't really hold water. It's like saying on Sunday I wasted 5 hours raiding and didn't get any upgrades. You could make the argument that I got a banner and a triumph, but next Sunday when we raid again and get no upgrades I still wouldn't count that as wasted time.
Were you not having fun during those games? If not, they why are you playing that mode anyway?
i literally only play gambit when i have to at this point
there are things you basically have to do in this game if you don't want to handicap yourself in areas completely unrelated to the thing you're doing (like raising your power level requires basically playing all aspects of the game even if you don't like some). now that my power level is high enough, i have no reason to play gambit that outweighs how not fun it is to play gambit
raiding isn't always rewarding gear-wise, but (last wish at least) is a fun experience even when it's challenging
take a raid like spire and it's just not fun at any point and so i stopped raiding because of it
but also, for myself i'm only talking about solo queuing
i can do any activity in the game with a team of pals and have a good time
solo queuing is a miserable experience in a lot of those same areas
Ah I understand. I know the drive to get every powerful reward available. I too have basically cut running strikes/heroic adventures out of my activity list unless it's the daily and even then if I have nothing better to do.
That being said if you ever want to try gambit while being part of a marginally coordinated party, invite me if you see me. It's actually pretty fun with any coordination. I know there's some others I've played with that said they'd be in for grouping up on gambit.
One bounty a day rewards a guaranteed piece of legendary gear. Given how this usually works in this game, you've got like a 50% chance of it being a gun and it's it's a gun, it's one of the Gambit exclusive ones. You've also got the weekly bounty and the random 7-day ones you will get just for playing, all of which also drop legendary gear.
Since Gambit lacks a token system of any sort, the only place to get gear is rank-up rewards, those bounties, weekly/daily milestones and randomly at the end of matches.
I had no idea this was the case
Could explain why have next to zero gambit weapons
Maybe gambit needs random modifiers like strikes? Maybe even switching them mid round?
Dunno but something to turn the predictability and repetitive flow on its head a bit
That was one of my thoughts. Have every round have random modifiers to force the engagements to be different. I'm curious for the Jokers Wild DLC since the tagline on that is "Gambit Evolves".
One bounty a day rewards a guaranteed piece of legendary gear. Given how this usually works in this game, you've got like a 50% chance of it being a gun and it's it's a gun, it's one of the Gambit exclusive ones. You've also got the weekly bounty and the random 7-day ones you will get just for playing, all of which also drop legendary gear.
Since Gambit lacks a token system of any sort, the only place to get gear is rank-up rewards, those bounties, weekly/daily milestones and randomly at the end of matches.
I had no idea this was the case
Could explain why have next to zero gambit weapons
My wife and I play gambit a lot, still have never seen the auto rifle.
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
One bounty a day rewards a guaranteed piece of legendary gear. Given how this usually works in this game, you've got like a 50% chance of it being a gun and it's it's a gun, it's one of the Gambit exclusive ones. You've also got the weekly bounty and the random 7-day ones you will get just for playing, all of which also drop legendary gear.
Since Gambit lacks a token system of any sort, the only place to get gear is rank-up rewards, those bounties, weekly/daily milestones and randomly at the end of matches.
I had no idea this was the case
Could explain why have next to zero gambit weapons
Unfortunately a lot of time that bounty is not something you can knock out quickly. Can take 3-4 games to do. Nothing more fun than "Get 35 multikills with a grenade launcher".
One bounty a day rewards a guaranteed piece of legendary gear. Given how this usually works in this game, you've got like a 50% chance of it being a gun and it's it's a gun, it's one of the Gambit exclusive ones. You've also got the weekly bounty and the random 7-day ones you will get just for playing, all of which also drop legendary gear.
Since Gambit lacks a token system of any sort, the only place to get gear is rank-up rewards, those bounties, weekly/daily milestones and randomly at the end of matches.
I had no idea this was the case
Could explain why have next to zero gambit weapons
My wife and I play gambit a lot, still have never seen the auto rifle.
I've had a fair spread of the weapons. Couple ARs, 1 SMG, Couple Pulses (not including the vendor buyable one), Couple Snipers, 1 Shotgun, 987 Bad Omens...
0
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Edit: This has been said a few posts earlier and discussed, so disregard if wanted.
Not trying to be that guy, but interacting with the game mode is not a waste of time.
You're playing the game to enjoy it. While having rewards is great and I understand that is sucks to lose and not get anything, saying you're wasting 30 minutes playing the game mode doesn't really hold water. It's like saying on Sunday I wasted 5 hours raiding and didn't get any upgrades. You could make the argument that I got a banner and a triumph, but next Sunday when we raid again and get no upgrades I still wouldn't count that as wasted time.
Were you not having fun during those games? If not, they why are you playing that mode anyway?
i literally only play gambit when i have to at this point
there are things you basically have to do in this game if you don't want to handicap yourself in areas completely unrelated to the thing you're doing (like raising your power level requires basically playing all aspects of the game even if you don't like some). now that my power level is high enough, i have no reason to play gambit that outweighs how not fun it is to play gambit
raiding isn't always rewarding gear-wise, but (last wish at least) is a fun experience even when it's challenging
take a raid like spire and it's just not fun at any point and so i stopped raiding because of it
but also, for myself i'm only talking about solo queuing
i can do any activity in the game with a team of pals and have a good time
solo queuing is a miserable experience in a lot of those same areas
Ah I understand. I know the drive to get every powerful reward available. I too have basically cut running strikes/heroic adventures out of my activity list unless it's the daily and even then if I have nothing better to do.
That being said if you ever want to try gambit while being part of a marginally coordinated party, invite me if you see me. It's actually pretty fun with any coordination. I know there's some others I've played with that said they'd be in for grouping up on gambit.
yeah i am for sure down with running games with a group
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
I think there's too many comeback mechanics. I think I've decried it earlier in the thread.
Right now there's constant invasion portals (IME equates to around kill/heal at least), sending blockers, and gaining the primeval damage boost when you summon yours.
IMO they need to cut one of them. Preference for primeval damage boost since it makes the least sense to me.
Maybe in coordinated play it makes sense, but for the majority it's crippling to the point where I consider not summoning first if both teams are close.
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
I’m not sure if the boss going invulnerable every quarter or something would make gambit better, because that would also make comebacks more difficult.
Basically the longer the minimum time is in which the primeval can be killed the more the game is determined by invasions
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
on the one hand yes re: the bosses
but on the other hand i don't think i would play gambit at all if they made the matches take even longer than they already do
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
Yup. I was writing a longer post but this is basically the heart of the matter. Within literally 24 hours of getting our hands on the mode, the community had solved it. Just in the Beta weekend, before Forsaken itself even dropped, people had figured out the strategies that still dominate Gambit to this day.
There's a bunch of issues big and small with the invasion mechanic and the bosses are simply too easy to burn down.
I think most of this relates to two fundamental issues with the mode, which are related to it introducing new mechanics to the game that Bungie has never bothered to balance around and still hasn't now.
1) No consideration at all for PvE balance. I've said this before but Bungie has never been concerned with PvE balance in this game. They've never cared about introducing weapons and abilities that just break the PvE side of the game and absolutely stomp on their own encounter design. And this was ... well, it wasn't fine imo but it didn't bother most people at the end of the day. But then comes Gambit and suddenly you have competitive PvE. And at that point all the lack of concern for PvE balance becomes super evident because once you make 2 teams compete, they are gonna start exploiting every single thing to gain an advantage they can.
There's also a big issue here with, as you say, the boss mechanics rewarding extremely simple burn strategies because they just stand there and do nothing but that stupid stomp. And when it comes to just straight up burning a boss down, Bungie has introduced a ton of completely broken abilities and guns for making that happen.
2) No balance for sustained long-range PvP engagements. Bungie clearly imo intended for people to at least be able to run in and close the gap when invading but the map layout favours super-long range engaments and Bungie has never had to balance Destiny around this type of PvP. The maps we have don't support it so it's never been a thing. But Gambit does and now it is and the fact that they've never done any balance work related to it shows.
To make this really work they are gonna have to start taking these two things into account when balancing the game. They seem to have thought they could just throw Gambit out there and it would be fine but Gambit is different from every other game mode we had in several ways that warrant balance consideration for the game as a whole.
but gambit matches take too long for the huge gap between value of winning and losing
losing a gambit match is in 95% of cases a complete waste of 20-30 minutes
I hit Legend rank early last week. One day I played like 4-5 games one night. Because of losses that time investment got me less then 200 points closer to hitting Reset.
About 2 hours of playing Gambit, ~6% progress towards the next level.
It's just a huge waste of time if you aren't winning. I'm not even sure you get good reward drops from the game ending if you don't win.
My problem with gambit at the moment is that the mode is too limited and has too little reason to actually do it. Going through the effort of resetting to get a curated weapon isn't a good enough motivator to play it for any extended amount of time. Getting the title isn't much better for a lot of people either.
The reason to play games if you aren't chasing the title and the ghost and all that is the guns. Gambit has some really great guns and you only get them by playing and completing bounties and ranking up.
Unless you get bad RNG and then you just don't get them period.
I'm on my way to Reset #3 and have only ever gotten a single Hazard of the Cast.
But when the mode becomes a slog for a lot of people what you end up with in reality is people doing their daily and weekly for potential rolls on weapons/armor and maybe a bounty if they happen to complete it in that time, then they don't play any more until the daily/weekly rolls around again.
I mean, sure, but that's kind of beside the point. You play Gambit because you like it, because you are chasing the titles and such or because you want the guns. This is no different then any other mode.
Why do strikes unless you want the rewards or the titles? No reason. No reason at all.
a strike is rarely a half hour complete waste of your time at least
Yeah, that's why I complain about that. I like Gambit. I enjoy playing it and I'd love it more if they fucking balanced it better and fixed it's glaring holes.
But above and beyond the game mode itself, the reward system is currently not good. It takes a long time for not a lot of reward and the rewards are randomly and difficult to get a hold of.
They are clearly trying to move away from token systems for whatever reason. I guess cause Reddit really fucking hates tokens. But the crucible and vanguard token systems are good for this kind of thing. They allow other ways to get rewards.
The game mode needs to reward your time spent better and more frequently then it does now.
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
I mean. I don’t want to be a dick, but I was saying this as soon as the gambit 1 day beta hit.
People here sort of poo poo’d me. I even went as far as to say the only way the mode survives is if it has a good loot pool (it does)
Honestly it’s.. not as bad as I expected. It’s actually more fun and less broken by prefect strategies/patterns then I expected. Boss burn down certainly is. But catch up mechanics and different strategies for quick more gathering at least mixes it up a bit
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
on the one hand yes re: the bosses
but on the other hand i don't think i would play gambit at all if they made the matches take even longer than they already do
Also I like the "idea" of other things required on the bosses but Bungie only has two moves: Bullshit invulnerability periods and/or overly complicated coordination mechanics.
I do not want either of those in pubbie versus premade Gambit.
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
I mean. I don’t want to be a dick, but I was saying this as soon as the gambit 1 day beta hit.
People here sort of poo poo’d me. I even went as far as to say the only way the mode survives is if it has a good loot pool (it does)
Honestly it’s.. not as bad as I expected. It’s actually more fun and less broken by prefect strategies/patterns then I expected. Boss burn down certainly is. But catch up mechanics and different strategies for quick more gathering at least mixes it up a bit
I don't think it's that people disagreed with your analysis of the mode in regards to it's depth - but if I remember correctly you had thought there was going to a much larger sustained PvP component-which I think everyone else knew wasn't happening based on what they had shared about the mode.
but gambit matches take too long for the huge gap between value of winning and losing
losing a gambit match is in 95% of cases a complete waste of 20-30 minutes
I hit Legend rank early last week. One day I played like 4-5 games one night. Because of losses that time investment got me less then 200 points closer to hitting Reset.
About 2 hours of playing Gambit, ~6% progress towards the next level.
It's just a huge waste of time if you aren't winning. I'm not even sure you get good reward drops from the game ending if you don't win.
My problem with gambit at the moment is that the mode is too limited and has too little reason to actually do it. Going through the effort of resetting to get a curated weapon isn't a good enough motivator to play it for any extended amount of time. Getting the title isn't much better for a lot of people either.
The reason to play games if you aren't chasing the title and the ghost and all that is the guns. Gambit has some really great guns and you only get them by playing and completing bounties and ranking up.
Unless you get bad RNG and then you just don't get them period.
I'm on my way to Reset #3 and have only ever gotten a single Hazard of the Cast.
But when the mode becomes a slog for a lot of people what you end up with in reality is people doing their daily and weekly for potential rolls on weapons/armor and maybe a bounty if they happen to complete it in that time, then they don't play any more until the daily/weekly rolls around again.
I mean, sure, but that's kind of beside the point. You play Gambit because you like it, because you are chasing the titles and such or because you want the guns. This is no different then any other mode.
Why do strikes unless you want the rewards or the titles? No reason. No reason at all.
a strike is rarely a half hour complete waste of your time at least
Yeah, that's why I complain about that. I like Gambit. I enjoy playing it and I'd love it more if they fucking balanced it better and fixed it's glaring holes.
But above and beyond the game mode itself, the reward system is currently not good. It takes a long time for not a lot of reward and the rewards are randomly and difficult to get a hold of.
They are clearly trying to move away from token systems for whatever reason. I guess cause Reddit really fucking hates tokens. But the crucible and vanguard token systems are good for this kind of thing. They allow other ways to get rewards.
The game mode needs to reward your time spent better and more frequently then it does now.
What would be your thoughts on keeping the rewards the same and just making it one ~15 min round?
Gambit is a decent idea that fell apart as soon as the community did their work and figured out how to burn the boss down instantly. They really should have predicted this would happen and introduced multiple bosses with mechanics that interrupt those burn down tactics that kinda break the game
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
I mean. I don’t want to be a dick, but I was saying this as soon as the gambit 1 day beta hit.
People here sort of poo poo’d me. I even went as far as to say the only way the mode survives is if it has a good loot pool (it does)
Honestly it’s.. not as bad as I expected. It’s actually more fun and less broken by prefect strategies/patterns then I expected. Boss burn down certainly is. But catch up mechanics and different strategies for quick more gathering at least mixes it up a bit
I don't think it's that people disagreed with your analysis of the mode in regards to it's depth - but if I remember correctly you had thought there was going to a much larger sustained PvP component-which I think everyone else knew wasn't happening based on what they had shared about the mode.
Pre release thoughts I said it would need more pvp then just the few invasion windows.(I actually think I’m wrong there and it’s fine as is, invasion is broken because of the dominance of ranges guns)
But I’m more talking about my thoughts after the 1 day trial. Where I sawhow quickly we burned down the boss with melting point and a short wall with single shot nade launchers.
I was like “oh wow this game mode is going to feel like a raid encounter burn down race and it’ll be ‘figured out’ Quickly. And that full stacks would dominate solo players in a way that was pretty unfair and unsubstainable
The response was that already is how it was in other PvP and I couldn’t get many folks to see how it was different
Disrupter on
0
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i think single round gambit would be just fine honestly
i guess there's the idea in theory about learning your opponent's tactics in round 1 and using that knowledge to come back and beat them but
like
we've all played gambit at this point
that ain't happening
there's only one tactic
Allegedly a voice of reason.
+4
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
15 minutes is a bit long for a round though i think
but also i already feel crucible matches are too long when they hit 10-12 minutes
i think single round gambit would be just fine honestly
i guess there's the idea in theory about learning your opponent's tactics in round 1 and using that knowledge to come back and beat them but
like
we've all played gambit at this point
that ain't happening
there's only one tactic
There is something to be said for a "stop loss" mechanic. In round two you both start at zero motes. In a single round structure it'd be possible to be down like 50 motes to a hundred and that would very much be "pack it in" territory.
Yeah, I honestly can't think of much reason for it to be best of 3. Nothing but super-charge and ability-charge caries over. And those only matter if you get stomped SUPER bad to the point where you never summon your primeval.
Like, I've had a ton of games go to round 3. It's not uncommon, although I think (without evidence) that 2 round games are the most common type.
But there's like no real reason to play the same team twice in a row rather then just getting a new game. Nothing is learned that you can apply to your next game. It's just a matter of if you can play well for 2 out of 3 matches and not fuck it all up too much. And there's no reason that can't apply across multiple games rather then 2-3 games against the same other team.
If there was a 4v4 only mode, like Competitive Gambit, that would make sense. But Gambit is all quickmatch and should function like it.
+1
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i think single round gambit would be just fine honestly
i guess there's the idea in theory about learning your opponent's tactics in round 1 and using that knowledge to come back and beat them but
like
we've all played gambit at this point
that ain't happening
there's only one tactic
There is something to be said for a "stop loss" mechanic. In round two you both start at zero motes. In a single round structure it'd be possible to be down like 50 motes to a hundred and that would very much be "pack it in" territory.
oh i mean keep everything else the same and just make it a single round, win or lose
I think Shryke is right about the problem being the lack of PVE balance.
To add my thoughts to that, the problem isn't that you can burn the boss, the problem is that the distance between a coordinated burn and just shooting at him with heavy weapons is 3 seconds versus 20 seconds.
I wouldn't fix this by making the boss harder to burn, I'd just fix it by decreasing the gap between an optimal burn strategy and a suboptimal one.
All of the instant damage supers should do similar amounts of single target damage. All of the timed supers should do similar amounts of single target damage. A full stack of heavy used by sleeper should do similar damage to a full stack of rockets. And obviously the ikelos shotgun shouldn't have twice the damage potential of anything else in the secondary slot.
The potential speed of a burn in Gambit is something you never really understand until you experience it from the other side.
It is fucking bonkers to watch a primeval, just as a health bar and nothing else, go from 100% to 0% over the course of about 5 seconds. That's how fast a good team can kill one. No counter-play possible.
What do you even do to that? You can't balance around that, it needs to be dealt with head-on.
Funnily enough, the testicle boss actually disrupts burn strategies a bit and can be more fun because of it.
I think the first two rounds should skip the boss and just be about motes/invading. So if you win twice you just skip the hard part.
I think the last round should have the boss like the meatball boss, which has stages and takes some thought to tackle. It should be tough and require teamwork. It should have some element of RNG so you can always predict what's gonna happen next. Like, even the meatball just sits around and waits to die, just tossing up a shield a few times to prevent insta-death.
So there's absolutely room to improve. The maps should be retooled with more cover. Maybe have alternate blockers that form barriers around the map for defense. Something, anything.
In general, I have a lot of thoughts on how spawns work in PvP and Gambit and it's influenced by that percieved "fairness" I've mentioned before. Right now it feels awful to spawn in right in front of the enemy and die with no response to be had. It's not fun to die to the same Nova Warp twice. They can do things to fix it, I don't really care how they do it, but they can do it.
The potential speed of a burn in Gambit is something you never really understand until you experience it from the other side.
It is fucking bonkers to watch a primeval, just as a health bar and nothing else, go from 100% to 0% over the course of about 5 seconds. That's how fast a good team can kill one. No counter-play possible.
What do you even do to that? You can't balance around that, it needs to be dealt with head-on.
Funnily enough, the testicle boss actually disrupts burn strategies a bit and can be more fun because of it.
I've experienced this, but it's still pretty rare. And I don't think I've ever seen it pulled off in both rounds
I think the first two rounds should skip the boss and just be about motes/invading. So if you win twice you just skip the hard part.
I think the last round should have the boss like the meatball boss, which has stages and takes some thought to tackle. It should be tough and require teamwork. It should have some element of RNG so you can always predict what's gonna happen next. Like, even the meatball just sits around and waits to die, just tossing up a shield a few times to prevent insta-death.
So there's absolutely room to improve. The maps should be retooled with more cover. Maybe have alternate blockers that form barriers around the map for defense. Something, anything.
In general, I have a lot of thoughts on how spawns work in PvP and Gambit and it's influenced by that percieved "fairness" I've mentioned before. Right now it feels awful to spawn in right in front of the enemy and die with no response to be had. It's not fun to die to the same Nova Warp twice. They can do things to fix it, I don't really care how they do it, but they can do it.
the spawn area in gambit should be walled off from the outside so you can't enter (other than spawning into it) but you can leave
it is utterly ridiculous that an invader can just spawn camp you
Just importing all of the bosses from Court of Oryx as the Primevals would fix the burn problem. But then I still maintain that Court of Oryx, aside from some minor hiccups in the offering economy, is the best-designed casual PvE activity in Destiny history. Short boss encounters that require some degree of coordinated action but which can be overcome without any need for actual communication between players and which, in a pinch, can be solo'd by one sufficiently skilled/high-level Guardian.
Edit: Hell, just pull in the current Plagues of the Well. They're all mechanically less interesting than the Court bosses but they're at least not just straight-up burn-dummies.
Posts
i think the problem for me is that people have figured out the meta now, or however you want to term it, and you either do it right or you're disorganized and get stomped
i have very rarely had a match that felt close one way or the other in the last two or three weeks
it's the iron banner problem writ large
there's just no competition. you know very early on whether you're going to win or lose, and then you just have to wait for it to resolve
Gambit has good to decent rewards but now the process of grinding Gambit is so unpleasant I'm not sure if I can keep going for the Ghost
Not trying to be that guy, but interacting with the game mode is not a waste of time.
You're playing the game to enjoy it. While having rewards is great and I understand that is sucks to lose and not get anything, saying you're wasting 30 minutes playing the game mode doesn't really hold water. It's like saying on Sunday I wasted 5 hours raiding and didn't get any upgrades. You could make the argument that I got a banner and a triumph, but next Sunday when we raid again and get no upgrades I still wouldn't count that as wasted time.
Were you not having fun during those games? If not, they why are you playing that mode anyway?
PSN: ChemENGR
i literally only play gambit when i have to at this point
there are things you basically have to do in this game if you don't want to handicap yourself in areas completely unrelated to the thing you're doing (like raising your power level requires basically playing all aspects of the game even if you don't like some). now that my power level is high enough, i have no reason to play gambit that outweighs how not fun it is to play gambit
raiding isn't always rewarding gear-wise, but (last wish at least) is a fun experience even when it's challenging
take a raid like spire and it's just not fun at any point and so i stopped raiding because of it
but also, for myself i'm only talking about solo queuing
i can do any activity in the game with a team of pals and have a good time
solo queuing is a miserable experience in a lot of those same areas
I keep having certain issues with both Protector and Commander Titan in crucible. Protector means I want to prioritize using bubble supers, but if I don't use Saint-14, the bubble doesn't give the extended overshields. Plus my neutral with only one grenade suffers. I want to also use melee overshield because my Saint-14 has Hands-On. but when I do get the melee kills, which is seldom due to not enough Impact mods, I don't seem to get a lot of use out of the overshield. Plus bubbles do not always translate into swinging games when it's not clash and when Blade Barrage/new supers exist.
Commander with Armamentarium is better neutral, but is definitely only situationally good. There are times when I get crispy 2 or even 3 kills with one grenade on bunched up targets because of Controlled Demolition, but otherwise it isn't super strong.
Knockout actually feels better to me now that it did in Y1 because I like to run a full-auto shotty which does leave people at critical very often and in prime distance for a Knockout punch to seal the kill. Just need a Prodigal or Ancient Apocalypse to drop with Hands-On and maybe a new Armamentarium. Double nades plus Knockout is
Dunno but something to turn the predictability and repetitive flow on its head a bit
Gambit is frustrating because it's twice the time investment, typically with outcomes obvious way earlier, and where individual performance metrics aren't emphasized. Hell, most of the ways to get numbers to be all "I personally did well" are actively harmful to the rest of your team.
Even more than normal crucible it needs a mercenary playlist.
Edit: Individuate? Really spell check?
It seems to me that very frequently I will lose a close first round, and then in the second round someone in our team will stop trying. I guess the logic is that we can’t win, so we should just get it over and done with and work on bounties. A lot of the time it seems if you lose the first round someone will just start camping the invasion portal
It might just all be in my head tho
https://medium.com/@alascii
I mean, it all comes down to what you value and find enjoyment in from the game. Destiny, like a great many games of MMOish leanings tries to actively incentivize getting everyone to at least dip their toe in certain modes by putting rewards there that might be desirable or usable in some other capacity that one does enjoy. I generally enjoy playing Destiny in that manner, a little bit of everything and getting thusly rewarded. However, it isn't terribly hard to understand why someone might engage in an activity that isn't the most fun for them if there is a reward they covet enough. Then when you don't get said rewards it amplifies the "pain" of having to do the activity anyway.
I'd argue that the raid is probably a poor example as it is an end game activity a very large portion of the population *wants* to engage in. Even more so if they are doing it with a group of friends and not a random LFG group. You could find enjoyment from the loot, from the mechanics, from hanging out with your friends etc. So that even if you don't get loot there are other avenues of enjoyment.
With something like Gambit, which isn't nearly as multifaceted, it makes enjoyment far more binary for a lot of people.
Ah I understand. I know the drive to get every powerful reward available. I too have basically cut running strikes/heroic adventures out of my activity list unless it's the daily and even then if I have nothing better to do.
That being said if you ever want to try gambit while being part of a marginally coordinated party, invite me if you see me. It's actually pretty fun with any coordination. I know there's some others I've played with that said they'd be in for grouping up on gambit.
PSN: ChemENGR
I had no idea this was the case
Could explain why have next to zero gambit weapons
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
That was one of my thoughts. Have every round have random modifiers to force the engagements to be different. I'm curious for the Jokers Wild DLC since the tagline on that is "Gambit Evolves".
My wife and I play gambit a lot, still have never seen the auto rifle.
PSN: ChemENGR
Also Invansion as a mechanic needs some work
Unfortunately a lot of time that bounty is not something you can knock out quickly. Can take 3-4 games to do. Nothing more fun than "Get 35 multikills with a grenade launcher".
I've had a fair spread of the weapons. Couple ARs, 1 SMG, Couple Pulses (not including the vendor buyable one), Couple Snipers, 1 Shotgun, 987 Bad Omens...
yeah i am for sure down with running games with a group
I think there's too many comeback mechanics. I think I've decried it earlier in the thread.
Right now there's constant invasion portals (IME equates to around kill/heal at least), sending blockers, and gaining the primeval damage boost when you summon yours.
IMO they need to cut one of them. Preference for primeval damage boost since it makes the least sense to me.
Maybe in coordinated play it makes sense, but for the majority it's crippling to the point where I consider not summoning first if both teams are close.
PSN: ChemENGR
I’m not sure if the boss going invulnerable every quarter or something would make gambit better, because that would also make comebacks more difficult.
Basically the longer the minimum time is in which the primeval can be killed the more the game is determined by invasions
https://medium.com/@alascii
on the one hand yes re: the bosses
but on the other hand i don't think i would play gambit at all if they made the matches take even longer than they already do
Yup. I was writing a longer post but this is basically the heart of the matter. Within literally 24 hours of getting our hands on the mode, the community had solved it. Just in the Beta weekend, before Forsaken itself even dropped, people had figured out the strategies that still dominate Gambit to this day.
There's a bunch of issues big and small with the invasion mechanic and the bosses are simply too easy to burn down.
I think most of this relates to two fundamental issues with the mode, which are related to it introducing new mechanics to the game that Bungie has never bothered to balance around and still hasn't now.
1) No consideration at all for PvE balance. I've said this before but Bungie has never been concerned with PvE balance in this game. They've never cared about introducing weapons and abilities that just break the PvE side of the game and absolutely stomp on their own encounter design. And this was ... well, it wasn't fine imo but it didn't bother most people at the end of the day. But then comes Gambit and suddenly you have competitive PvE. And at that point all the lack of concern for PvE balance becomes super evident because once you make 2 teams compete, they are gonna start exploiting every single thing to gain an advantage they can.
There's also a big issue here with, as you say, the boss mechanics rewarding extremely simple burn strategies because they just stand there and do nothing but that stupid stomp. And when it comes to just straight up burning a boss down, Bungie has introduced a ton of completely broken abilities and guns for making that happen.
2) No balance for sustained long-range PvP engagements. Bungie clearly imo intended for people to at least be able to run in and close the gap when invading but the map layout favours super-long range engaments and Bungie has never had to balance Destiny around this type of PvP. The maps we have don't support it so it's never been a thing. But Gambit does and now it is and the fact that they've never done any balance work related to it shows.
To make this really work they are gonna have to start taking these two things into account when balancing the game. They seem to have thought they could just throw Gambit out there and it would be fine but Gambit is different from every other game mode we had in several ways that warrant balance consideration for the game as a whole.
Yeah, that's why I complain about that. I like Gambit. I enjoy playing it and I'd love it more if they fucking balanced it better and fixed it's glaring holes.
But above and beyond the game mode itself, the reward system is currently not good. It takes a long time for not a lot of reward and the rewards are randomly and difficult to get a hold of.
They are clearly trying to move away from token systems for whatever reason. I guess cause Reddit really fucking hates tokens. But the crucible and vanguard token systems are good for this kind of thing. They allow other ways to get rewards.
The game mode needs to reward your time spent better and more frequently then it does now.
I mean. I don’t want to be a dick, but I was saying this as soon as the gambit 1 day beta hit.
People here sort of poo poo’d me. I even went as far as to say the only way the mode survives is if it has a good loot pool (it does)
Honestly it’s.. not as bad as I expected. It’s actually more fun and less broken by prefect strategies/patterns then I expected. Boss burn down certainly is. But catch up mechanics and different strategies for quick more gathering at least mixes it up a bit
Also I like the "idea" of other things required on the bosses but Bungie only has two moves: Bullshit invulnerability periods and/or overly complicated coordination mechanics.
I do not want either of those in pubbie versus premade Gambit.
I don't think it's that people disagreed with your analysis of the mode in regards to it's depth - but if I remember correctly you had thought there was going to a much larger sustained PvP component-which I think everyone else knew wasn't happening based on what they had shared about the mode.
What would be your thoughts on keeping the rewards the same and just making it one ~15 min round?
PSN: ChemENGR
Pre release thoughts I said it would need more pvp then just the few invasion windows.(I actually think I’m wrong there and it’s fine as is, invasion is broken because of the dominance of ranges guns)
But I’m more talking about my thoughts after the 1 day trial. Where I sawhow quickly we burned down the boss with melting point and a short wall with single shot nade launchers.
I was like “oh wow this game mode is going to feel like a raid encounter burn down race and it’ll be ‘figured out’ Quickly. And that full stacks would dominate solo players in a way that was pretty unfair and unsubstainable
The response was that already is how it was in other PvP and I couldn’t get many folks to see how it was different
i guess there's the idea in theory about learning your opponent's tactics in round 1 and using that knowledge to come back and beat them but
like
we've all played gambit at this point
that ain't happening
there's only one tactic
but also i already feel crucible matches are too long when they hit 10-12 minutes
There is something to be said for a "stop loss" mechanic. In round two you both start at zero motes. In a single round structure it'd be possible to be down like 50 motes to a hundred and that would very much be "pack it in" territory.
Like, I've had a ton of games go to round 3. It's not uncommon, although I think (without evidence) that 2 round games are the most common type.
But there's like no real reason to play the same team twice in a row rather then just getting a new game. Nothing is learned that you can apply to your next game. It's just a matter of if you can play well for 2 out of 3 matches and not fuck it all up too much. And there's no reason that can't apply across multiple games rather then 2-3 games against the same other team.
If there was a 4v4 only mode, like Competitive Gambit, that would make sense. But Gambit is all quickmatch and should function like it.
oh i mean keep everything else the same and just make it a single round, win or lose
To add my thoughts to that, the problem isn't that you can burn the boss, the problem is that the distance between a coordinated burn and just shooting at him with heavy weapons is 3 seconds versus 20 seconds.
I wouldn't fix this by making the boss harder to burn, I'd just fix it by decreasing the gap between an optimal burn strategy and a suboptimal one.
All of the instant damage supers should do similar amounts of single target damage. All of the timed supers should do similar amounts of single target damage. A full stack of heavy used by sleeper should do similar damage to a full stack of rockets. And obviously the ikelos shotgun shouldn't have twice the damage potential of anything else in the secondary slot.
https://medium.com/@alascii
like seven minutes abs
I've had some really exciting third rounds and an ideal world I'd keep the overall structure but maybe make each individual round a bit shorter.
But given player behavior and the community I don't think 3 rounds is ever going to work for pick up games. Save it for trials of driftsiris
https://medium.com/@alascii
It is fucking bonkers to watch a primeval, just as a health bar and nothing else, go from 100% to 0% over the course of about 5 seconds. That's how fast a good team can kill one. No counter-play possible.
What do you even do to that? You can't balance around that, it needs to be dealt with head-on.
Funnily enough, the testicle boss actually disrupts burn strategies a bit and can be more fun because of it.
I think the last round should have the boss like the meatball boss, which has stages and takes some thought to tackle. It should be tough and require teamwork. It should have some element of RNG so you can always predict what's gonna happen next. Like, even the meatball just sits around and waits to die, just tossing up a shield a few times to prevent insta-death.
So there's absolutely room to improve. The maps should be retooled with more cover. Maybe have alternate blockers that form barriers around the map for defense. Something, anything.
In general, I have a lot of thoughts on how spawns work in PvP and Gambit and it's influenced by that percieved "fairness" I've mentioned before. Right now it feels awful to spawn in right in front of the enemy and die with no response to be had. It's not fun to die to the same Nova Warp twice. They can do things to fix it, I don't really care how they do it, but they can do it.
I've experienced this, but it's still pretty rare. And I don't think I've ever seen it pulled off in both rounds
https://medium.com/@alascii
the spawn area in gambit should be walled off from the outside so you can't enter (other than spawning into it) but you can leave
it is utterly ridiculous that an invader can just spawn camp you
Edit: Hell, just pull in the current Plagues of the Well. They're all mechanically less interesting than the Court bosses but they're at least not just straight-up burn-dummies.