The New York Times' Special Report on Fred Trump funneling $413 Million to Donald Trump

Athenor

Yesterday, The "failing" New York Times dropped a bombshell: A special report on how the Trump family funneled money in and out of Fred Trump's empire.

I will openly admit I have not read this whole article yet. It's very long.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The New York Times has provided a separate story with the takeaways that is easier to digest.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-wealth-fred-trump.html


They have also produced a series of short videos graphically illustrating the tactics Fred Trump used to move money around.




At the core of Donald Trump's being is his narrative: A self made man, not helped by his father, who grew into a household name of immense wealth. Of course, we don't know the extent of that wealth because to this day he refuses to release his tax records.

Naturally, this is gaining traction.. and leading to even more outbursts by Trump himself, and his family.

The president declined repeated requests over several weeks to comment for this article. But a lawyer for Mr. Trump, Charles J. Harder, provided a written statement on Monday, one day after The Times sent a detailed description of its findings. “The New York Times’s allegations of fraud and tax evasion are 100 percent false, and highly defamatory,” Mr. Harder said. “There was no fraud or tax evasion by anyone. The facts upon which The Times bases its false allegations are extremely inaccurate.”

Mr. Harder sought to distance Mr. Trump from the tax strategies used by his family, saying the president had delegated those tasks to relatives and tax professionals. “President Trump had virtually no involvement whatsoever with these matters,” he said. “The affairs were handled by other Trump family members who were not experts themselves and therefore relied entirely upon the aforementioned licensed professionals to ensure full compliance with the law.”

The president’s brother, Robert Trump, issued a statement on behalf of the Trump family:

“Our dear father, Fred C. Trump, passed away in June 1999. Our beloved mother, Mary Anne Trump, passed away in August 2000. All appropriate gift and estate tax returns were filed, and the required taxes were paid. Our father’s estate was closed in 2001 by both the Internal Revenue Service and the New York State tax authorities, and our mother’s estate was closed in 2004. Our family has no other comment on these matters that happened some 20 years ago, and would appreciate your respecting the privacy of our deceased parents, may God rest their souls.”

Interestingly, the final takeaway? That Trump could have sold the family business for far more than he did... Well, ignoring the fact that Fred Trump never wanted the business to leave the family. But that's not that big, right?

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I'm certain mods will add more to this. But to begin with:

This thread is specifically about the NYT article, and how money was moved around, hidden, and otherwise shifted. I personally envision also discussing fallout from it.. which may be minimal criminally, given the statute of limitations. It is not about Trump as President, or if this information would have affected things in the elections. It is also NOT about how this will impact the upcoming midterms, financial policy, or any of the other threads we have around here.


Personally, a lot of this is above my head. But it feels important. So maybe we can talk about it?

Couscous

The usage of words like "fraud" by the NYT makes it pretty obvious a lot of this was illegal because there is no way they would be throwing out such accusations without amazing amounts of caveats unless they were pretty certain about.

Mayabird

It may be minimal criminally since it happened so many years ago, but I have read that there might be ways of extracting civil fines out of it in the end, and those could be substantial. I certainly hope so.

Henroid

A lot of this has been suspected for a while but the key here is that the NYT has all the receipts now. The suspicion is out the window, this is just fact now.

I find it funny that Trump's lawyers still made threats of litigation (defamation). This isn't the 1980s or 1990s anymore. The internet has changed things; the information is out there, you can't just bully the press anymore. The NYT should call that bluff and defend themselves if it comes to it, if not counter-sue for 1st amendment violation.

Henroid

Oh yeah if people want some more media to hear about this (again it is all derived from the article, but the article is frickin long):

Rachel Maddow covered some of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9f2YAKIJg

Deadline on MSNBC mentioned a few more details (edit - I should note on this one they get the author on the phone):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7OmK8I-v0

RedTide

Everyday you read the headlines and see something the President said or did and say "That's not surprising."

Then you click the link or read the article and somehow you're still fucking surprised at how deep the rabbit hole goes.

RMS Oceanic

RedTide wrote: »

Everyday you read the headlines and see something the President said or did and say "That's not surprising."

Then you click the link or read the article and somehow you're still fucking surprised at how deep the rabbit hole goes.

There's knowing a certain fact about the world, and then there's knowing it.

shryke

The basic TLDR of the whole thing:

The Times’s investigation, based on a vast trove of confidential tax returns and financial records, reveals that Mr. Trump received the equivalent today of at least $413 million from his father’s real estate empire, starting when he was a toddler and continuing to this day.

Much of this money came to Mr. Trump because he helped his parents dodge taxes. He and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents, records and interviews show. Records indicate that Mr. Trump helped his father take improper tax deductions worth millions more. He also helped formulate a strategy to undervalue his parents’ real estate holdings by hundreds of millions of dollars on tax returns, sharply reducing the tax bill when those properties were transferred to him and his siblings.

These maneuvers met with little resistance from the Internal Revenue Service, The Times found. The president’s parents, Fred and Mary Trump, transferred well over $1 billion in wealth to their children, which could have produced a tax bill of at least $550 million under the 55 percent tax rate then imposed on gifts and inheritances.

The Trumps paid a total of $52.2 million, or about 5 percent, tax records show.

The Trumps have bilked the US taxpayer out of at least half a billion dollars.

Make some ads.

RMS Oceanic

The Times Article wrote:

Mr. Harder sought to distance Mr. Trump from the tax strategies used by his family, saying the president had delegated those tasks to relatives and tax professionals. “President Trump had virtually no involvement whatsoever with these matters,” he said. “The affairs were handled by other Trump family members who were not experts themselves and therefore relied entirely upon the aforementioned licensed professionals to ensure full compliance with the law.”

There's a coffee joke here.

Handkor

So this explains Trump's most recent tantrum.

With all the audits Trump is suppose to have been under, I'd like for those documents or settlements to be made public or reevaluated. With so many irregularities it seems like a lot of officials are incompetent or have been bribed.

Maybe we need a special prosecutor to look into the whole NY real-estate sphere for the last 40 years.

Athenor

I think what annoys me the most is the IRS being defanged over this. I live, every year, in fear of an IRS audit for just paltry stuff, like a few dozen dollars here and there. I've known that the rich get that way by basically taking advantage of every loophole they could. But there's some pretty brazen stuff in here - stuff that the IRS had to have at least heard about - and yet nothing.

It also makes me wonder how the hell he fell into so much debt, when his father set up mechanisms that essentially could keep him fed and clothed for multiple lifetimes.

Knight_

Athenor wrote: »

I think what annoys me the most is the IRS being defanged over this. I live, every year, in fear of an IRS audit for just paltry stuff, like a few dozen dollars here and there. I've known that the rich get that way by basically taking advantage of every loophole they could. But there's some pretty brazen stuff in here - stuff that the IRS had to have at least heard about - and yet nothing.

It also makes me wonder how the hell he fell into so much debt, when his father set up mechanisms that essentially could keep him fed and clothed for multiple lifetimes.

he's extremely bad at his chosen businesses.

wandering

⚠️ Presidential Alert

The president of the United States has broken countless laws, including but not limited to extensive tax fraud. Impeachment is needed.

jkylefulton

Prosecution of white collar crime really needs to become an issue. Soon.

Veevee

jkylefulton wrote: »

Prosecution of white collar crime really needs to become an issue. Soon.

Sadly, that may actually collapse the US economy. There is a solid foundation of corruption that I don't think can be removed without bringing the whole thing down. It's a corruption bubble that has been there since the very beginning, and no one really wants it popped.

Gaddez

Wait, you mean to tell me that a slumlord and his ego maniacal son engaged found ways to cheat the system out of gobs of money and that the son led people to believe that the money as all his?

Say it ain't so!

Doodmann

Veevee wrote: »

jkylefulton wrote: »

Prosecution of white collar crime really needs to become an issue. Soon.

Sadly, that may actually collapse the US economy. There is a solid foundation of corruption that I don't think can be removed without bringing the whole thing down. It's a corruption bubble that has been there since the very beginning, and no one really wants it popped.

That is just not true. You just make these fuckers pay their taxes. The beauty of capitalism is there is always some ambitious asshole ready to swoop in when one goes to jail.

Phillishere

Veevee wrote: »

jkylefulton wrote: »

Prosecution of white collar crime really needs to become an issue. Soon.

Sadly, that may actually collapse the US economy. There is a solid foundation of corruption that I don't think can be removed without bringing the whole thing down. It's a corruption bubble that has been there since the very beginning, and no one really wants it popped.

One long-standing criticism of The New York Times is that they have a long history of refusing to do investigative reporting on the New York real estate scene because of the extent the paper depends on real estate advertising. Their defense is that they report heavily on what is happening, including criminal cases.

It will be very interesting if they push the thread from Trump to the New York real estate community at large.

RMS Oceanic

The Article wrote:

Three potential bidders were given access to the finances of Fred Trump’s empire — 37 apartment complexes and several shopping centers. Ruby Schron, a major New York City landlord, quickly emerged as the favorite. In December 2003, Mr. Schron called Donald Trump and they came to an agreement; Mr. Schron paid $705.6 million for most of the empire, which included paying off the Trumps’ mortgages. A few remaining properties were sold to other buyers, bringing the total sales price to $737.9 million.

[...]

Even more extraordinary was this unreported fact: The banks financing Mr. Schron’s purchase valued Fred Trump’s empire at nearly $1 billion. In other words, Donald Trump, master dealmaker, sold his father’s empire for hundreds of millions less than it was worth.

This facet is so predictable and yet so... I don't even know. Like you have that "At least do it properly" impulse niggling and just... *Shrug*

WotanAnubis

Athenor wrote: »

I think what annoys me the most is the IRS being defanged over this. I live, every year, in fear of an IRS audit for just paltry stuff, like a few dozen dollars here and there. I've known that the rich get that way by basically taking advantage of every loophole they could. But there's some pretty brazen stuff in here - stuff that the IRS had to have at least heard about - and yet nothing.

It also makes me wonder how the hell he fell into so much debt, when his father set up mechanisms that essentially could keep him fed and clothed for multiple lifetimes.

He managed to bankrupt two casinos.

A man who can go bankrupt running two casinos is a man who doesn't know how to hold on to his money.

Captain Inertia

Is the implication, beyond bad businessmanning, that Trump was willing to take a haircut on his family empire in order to get a bailout of his own personal finances?

Bad-Beat

I guess the easiest way to put these allegation to bed is for Trump to release his tax returns.

Unless... they help to corroborate the story - which would explain why he's never released them! Holy shit! What an unexpected twist!

RMS Oceanic

Captain Inertia wrote: »

Is the implication, beyond bad businessmanning, that Trump was willing to take a haircut on his family empire in order to get a bailout of his own personal finances?

That would be the one interpretation that doesn't paint him as bad at negotiation, that he needed a firesale injection of cash right now.

Styrofoam Sammich

Trump's lawyer threatening to sue over a story where his tax returns would be material evidence is pretty funny.

Henroid

Captain Inertia wrote: »

Is the implication, beyond bad businessmanning, that Trump was willing to take a haircut on his family empire in order to get a bailout of his own personal finances?

It's not even implication.
- Trump's dad did a lot of tax dodging to get money into his kids' hands
- Trump specifically ended up requiring more than his siblings because he was failing businesses super hard and fast
- Trump tried to get his dad's Will re-written to favor him in entirety; his dad was pissssssed
- Trump helped his parents dodge taxes a bunch
- Trump claimed he only got 1 million dollars from his dad and paid it back; he got what amounts to hundreds of millions
- and yeah Trump sold his dad's empire for pennies on the dollar, what a deal maker!

AngelHedgie

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Trump's lawyer threatening to sue over a story where his tax returns would be material evidence is pretty funny.

Remember that said lawyer is Charles Harder, the man who claimed Gawker's head for Peter Thiel (and probably violated legal ethics in doing so.)

nexuscrawler

WotanAnubis wrote: »

Athenor wrote: »

I think what annoys me the most is the IRS being defanged over this. I live, every year, in fear of an IRS audit for just paltry stuff, like a few dozen dollars here and there. I've known that the rich get that way by basically taking advantage of every loophole they could. But there's some pretty brazen stuff in here - stuff that the IRS had to have at least heard about - and yet nothing.

It also makes me wonder how the hell he fell into so much debt, when his father set up mechanisms that essentially could keep him fed and clothed for multiple lifetimes.

He managed to bankrupt two casinos.

A man who can go bankrupt running two casinos is a man who doesn't know how to hold on to his money.

three Casinos

big part of why the other 2 went under is he over-leveraged himself to build the Taj mahel and only succeeded at stealing his own business

RMS Oceanic

AngelHedgie wrote: »

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Trump's lawyer threatening to sue over a story where his tax returns would be material evidence is pretty funny.

Remember that said lawyer is Charles Harder, the man who claimed Gawker's head for Peter Thiel (and probably violated legal ethics in doing so.)

Fair point, but I figured the NYT was not Gawker. They've probably been through this rigmarole before.

enlightenedbum

Upgrades the priority of the tax returns on the "big long list of things for Democrats to subpoena if they get the majority." I imagine they and all things family separation are the top two but there are so fucking many at this point.

Matev

Yah, NYT’s gone toe to toe with the government in court and won, Harder isn’t going to scare them off.

Styrofoam Sammich

RMS Oceanic wrote: »

AngelHedgie wrote: »

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Trump's lawyer threatening to sue over a story where his tax returns would be material evidence is pretty funny.

Remember that said lawyer is Charles Harder, the man who claimed Gawker's head for Peter Thiel (and probably violated legal ethics in doing so.)

Fair point, but I figured the NYT was not Gawker. They've probably been through this rigmarole before.

Yeah one imagines they'd view the chance to dig through his tax returns well worth a lawsuit that won't go anywhere

Knight_

Matev wrote: »

Yah, NYT’s gone toe to toe with the government in court and won, Harder isn’t going to scare them off.

it's going to be a pretty hard sell to make any story about the president of the united states fit any us standard for libel as far as i understand it. being the most public figure takes things off the table.

wikipedia quote

The 1964 case New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, however, radically changed the nature of libel law in the United States by establishing that public officials could win a suit for libel only when they could prove the media outlet in question knew either that the information was wholly and patently false or that it was published "with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not".

RMS Oceanic

Knight_ wrote: »

Matev wrote: »

Yah, NYT’s gone toe to toe with the government in court and won, Harder isn’t going to scare them off.

it's going to be a pretty hard sell to make any story about the president of the united states fit any us standard for libel as far as i understand it. being the most public figure takes things off the table.

wikipedia quote

The 1964 case New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, however, radically changed the nature of libel law in the United States by establishing that public officials could win a suit for libel only when they could prove the media outlet in question knew either that the information was wholly and patently false or that it was published "with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not".

Pretty much. I see it as standard Trump blustering to stuff like this.

Styrofoam Sammich

Its just the obligatory belligerent right wing response. This fake. They're lying. If they don't stop we'll sue yada yada

Polaritie

So does NY have an anti-SLAPP law for tbe NYT to hit back with?

shryke

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Its just the obligatory belligerent right wing response. This fake. They're lying. If they don't stop we'll sue yada yada

The NYT should dare him to sue and call him a chicken for not doing so.

Preacher

shryke wrote: »

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Its just the obligatory belligerent right wing response. This fake. They're lying. If they don't stop we'll sue yada yada

The NYT should dare him to sue and call him a chicken for not doing so.

Nah they still play access journalism with him. Its frankly amazing they pursued this story with Haberman and the like making decisions there.

WACriminal

shryke wrote: »

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Its just the obligatory belligerent right wing response. This fake. They're lying. If they don't stop we'll sue yada yada

The NYT should dare him to sue and call him a chicken for not doing so.

Needs to publish a special editorial that begins, "To known coward, Donald Trump:".

Bucketman

Doodmann wrote: »

Veevee wrote: »

jkylefulton wrote: »

Prosecution of white collar crime really needs to become an issue. Soon.

Sadly, that may actually collapse the US economy. There is a solid foundation of corruption that I don't think can be removed without bringing the whole thing down. It's a corruption bubble that has been there since the very beginning, and no one really wants it popped.

That is just not true. You just make these fuckers pay their taxes. The beauty of capitalism is there is always some ambitious asshole ready to swoop in when one goes to jail.

In fact it might help save the US Economy by getting enough tax revenue

CelestialBadger

The little people have to pay their full taxes, why not the rich?

If it turns out that the top tax rate *is* too high, when actually paid, and healthy businesses start failing, we could always reduce it.

Doodmann

CelestialBadger wrote: »

The little people have to pay their full taxes, why not the rich?

If it turns out that the top tax rate *is* too high, when actually paid, and healthy businesses start failing, we could always reduce it.

I would just like us to realize this is all a game to them. If we make it "harder" they aren't going to flip the table and walk away, they're just going to find different and more interesting ways to cheat.