I'd argue that Shorten was totally competent. They didn't really put a foot wrong, per se - they didn't have the characteristic fuck ups that the LNP have had (the dual citizenship mess, travel rorts etc) and he ran a pretty tight ship in that regard, ably assisted by Tanya Plibersek.
He's just a complete void of charisma and no one listened to him as a result. Albanese is amazingly milquetoast - I absolutely thought he'd come out guns blazing. Jury is still out if he's competent or not.
I guess you can equate the two - Gillard was competent, definitely. She passed a lot of good legislation. Shitty messaging that was dramatically amplified by the Murdoch press though - 'the Real Julia' etc.
I can't really think of a recent Labor leader that hasn't been pretty competent, really. I'd argue Rudd wasn't completely- smart guy, but acutely aware of that. Definitely didn't play well with others. And good grief I was sick to death of seeing him on the news 24/7 trying to 'win' every news cycle.
We definitely haven't seen a Hawk/Keating type of charisma in a long time, from either party. I think a lot of folks were hoping that would be Turnbull, but man were we all wrong there. Reminds me of Keating giving Rudd advice about Turnbull - he's truly a very clever, brilliant man in a lot of ways, Keating said. He'll run rings around most folks and he can execute strategy. But his great failing - he has no judgement. Wasn't that proved, time and time again, from UteGate all the way through to handling the leadership challenge from Dutton.
And now we have fucking ScoMo. Man, imagine losing to that sack of jelly. No wonder he believes in prosperity gospels and believes he talks with God in tongues. He's the living embodiment of failing upwards.
Yeah I’m more inclined to think that labor’s failings when in government are not failings of competence, but courage. Mostly the cabinets they’ve assembled have been pretty decent. Every government is gonna have fuckups, and every left wing government is gonna have to battle uphill against the Murdoch press, but what they don’t have to do is score so many own-goals with messaging, or run shrieking towards the right every time they get a whiff of the liberals targeting the middle class vote.
I know the popular view in the party is that the last election was lost because they tried to pitch the electorate a Big Vision, but from outside the country it looked more like they couldn’t effectively counter the LNP messaging machine.
VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
I think I take great exception to the notion that Shorten was a competent leader. He seemed to spend a lot of time focusing on his ascension by creating splits within Labor to his own advantage, essentially destabilizing its leadership until he took top spot. I don’t think this is any great secret, either... just seemed pretty clear that internal forces were driving all the backstabbing within Labor a few years ago.
Oh yeah shorten is a ladder climbing jackass who helped squander the huge goodwill labor picked up off the back of Rudd’s victory and I ain’t gonna ever forgive him for that. His strategy as opposition leader seemed to be to sit back and let the libs hang themselves with their own idiocy, which ... is an ok approach, I guess, and might have worked if he’d also had a personality to bring out when required, but also meant that when the election did roll around suddenly he had to generate enthusiasm for the party platform from the ground up.
When I said leadership, I didn't just mean the PM/OppLead. I meant the top level of the party. Though I do consider selling yourself to the electorate as a competency for PM, so I'm not sold on Shorten or Albanese as "competent" in that regard.
That it's been nothing but backbiting and knifings (for both parties), since Howard left, is kinda pathetic.
John Howard was the last Prime Minister we had to serve out a full term. Let that sink in.
But because Labor have been more preoccupied with their own issues, we've let the LNP run the table the last couple elections.
Dunno about that. The last one was a shock - I wouldn't say that Shorten & the Labor opposition were pre-occupied at all, they fucked up in Queensland and Bob Brown's caravan didn't help. The Rudd/Gillard/Rudd fiasco was absolutely true and a total debacle that allowed too many Coalition free kicks, though.
Regarding Shorten, I blame him completely. As leader he has the responsibility to set the direction and tone for Labor. And at the end, he just did... Nothing. Passed everything LNP wanted, and seemed mostly concerned with not ceding votes to the Greens.
Yeah I’m more inclined to think that labor’s failings when in government are not failings of competence, but courage. Mostly the cabinets they’ve assembled have been pretty decent. Every government is gonna have fuckups, and every left wing government is gonna have to battle uphill against the Murdoch press, but what they don’t have to do is score so many own-goals with messaging, or run shrieking towards the right every time they get a whiff of the liberals targeting the middle class vote.
I know the popular view in the party is that the last election was lost because they tried to pitch the electorate a Big Vision, but from outside the country it looked more like they couldn’t effectively counter the LNP messaging machine.
the shit labour tell themselves about what the electorate thinks is amazingly far removed from the actual situation on the ground
the universal sense of voters was that both parties are exactly the same and there's no point voting for either of them, but labour have convinced themselves that they ran on the most progressive platform in decades. i think they fail to understand just how few people were actually listening to them. like, i didn't pay attention to the federal election at all and i had no idea what their platform was even supposed to be
edit: a good jobs program in central queensland could win a federal election for labour on its own. those all used to be labour seats guys. has anyone thought about nationalising the coal mines
Other than climate change policy, they didn't really sell anything well. No one was listening to the changes on franking credits for retirees, except of course for self funded retirees who were aghast at suddenly not getting income back.
Being told 'if you don't like it, don't vote for us' by the Shadow Treasurer didn't help that, either.
100% jobs programs in central Queensland would absolutely help - Far North as well, to an extent. That's more or less what half of Queensland viewed Adani as, any way. Good, well paying jobs in their heartland.
I was in the Illawarra next to the National Park for the 1994 Eastern Seaboard fires, watching the fire spread down the escarpment towards our house. I was in the Southern Highlands for the 2001 Black Christmas fire, where it reached about 100 meters from my house, and a huge fire in 2003 that got similarly close. All three cut off the only 2 roads out of town (sounds like an episode of the Simpsons, but small/coastal towns in Australia have laughably bad access roads).
Where I live now there’s more access roads, but all of them simply lead to miles of dry, kindling-like bushland.
This summer is going to be awful. Today I went out and bought enough carriers to get all our pets out at once.
Yeah. I was here in Canberra for the 2002/2003 fires - had friends living in Duffy who didn't lose their house, but it was very close.
I was at RMC at the time and I remember standing on the parade ground watching burning leaves drop around us, even though the fire was on the other side of the city, not to mention the smoke being so thick you couldn't drive through it. My folks stayed at my apartment because their power/water was intermittent.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone, it was absolutely terrifying. To hear our Prime Minister/Vice Prime Minister lash out at climate change as being hysterical is so goddamn infuriating.
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
Regarding Shorten, I blame him completely. As leader he has the responsibility to set the direction and tone for Labor. And at the end, he just did... Nothing. Passed everything LNP wanted, and seemed mostly concerned with not ceding votes to the Greens.
Yeah basically July was clearly not the right time to talk about fires and climate change, and now’s not the right time cuz the fires are still burning, even as the mayors of rural towns where folks have died are saying TALK THE FUCK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE. The extent of the dissonance is simply mind-blowing.
"For any bloody greenie, lefty out there that wants to talk about climate change when communities are at risk — and over the next 48 hours we may lose more lives — and if this is the time that people talk about climate change they are a bloody disgrace," he said.
"For any bloody greenie Democrat, lefty out there that wants to talk about climate change gun control when communities kids are at risk — and over the next 48 hours we may lose more lives — and if this is the time that people talk about climate change gun control they are a bloody disgrace," he said.
The rhetoric used by the Liberals, especially as of late, feels bloody close to the NRA and Republican messaging around gun control.
"For any bloody greenie Democrat, lefty out there that wants to talk about climate change gun control when communities kids are at risk — and over the next 48 hours we may lose more lives — and if this is the time that people talk about climate change gun control they are a bloody disgrace," he said.
The rhetoric used by the Liberals, especially as of late, feels bloody close to the NRA and Republican messaging around gun control.
It's exactly the same. It's the, "It's too soon to talk about tragedy X." bullshit. Because somehow talking about policies to prevent a tragedy from reoccurring taints things. If someone tried that line to stop discussion of getting a stop sign put in after someone's granny got clocked by a speeding driver they'd get their ass kicked, but it works like a charm if you have 50 shooting victims or half your country/province/state is on fire.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Eh.
That's sky news pushing the climate agenda line, and a liberal politician trying very hard to push recalibration of data as a thing to be concerned about, but not actually saying that the BoM is part of the agenda.
It's a politician saying what he thinks his base wants to hear, while not actually saying the lie that would get him in trouble.
Better this than straight out accusing the BoM of being part of the deep state.
And hopefully it belies an attitude of letting the department continue to do its job, without active climate denial meddling from the top
i get that you've got to blame someone, and "the jews" would be a bit on the nose, but it's still weird how the right thinks the greens are dangerous radicals instead of the fairly boring liberal moderates they actually are
I assume by politicising the tragedy we're now past being "too soon to talk about this" phase?
If only there was a party who had taken climate change and it's effects going forward seriously.
Oh. Wait.
On the election, I've made my feelings about Shorten clear in the past.
He let his pettiness and ambition trash two promising PMs and then managed to lose two elections to some of the most incompetent PMs in recent history.
At Rudd's second exit I had hoped to see Albanese take leadership, but whatever concessions he had to make to the party to step into leadership after the most recent election has made him weak willed and bereft of former morals.
Penny Wong is the only senior member of that party I have much faith in these days, there needs to be an infusion of younger blood to draw my interest.
They haven't gotten my primary vote in a long time, there are much more attractive currently that aren't as milquetoast.
Fuck I love the Betoota Advocate. The last line in that 'but it's unclear if they'll give any of the 270 billion litres of water' was just the absolute icing on the 'fuck you' cake.
Also the fault being insufficient scrub burning is basically a reheated Trump talking point about the California fires.
Now is not the time to politicize the bushfires. Anyone who does so, while the country is burning, is reprehensible.
Unless we can stick it to a minority party that has never held power, and blame them for the death of two people.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Even if there was insufficient scrub burning, it was in no way the Greens stopping it.
What was stopping the RFS doing it was the fact that Australia is dry as fuck right now and they didn't want to start a fire that could easily spread out of control and they didn't have the manpower to fight.
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He's just a complete void of charisma and no one listened to him as a result. Albanese is amazingly milquetoast - I absolutely thought he'd come out guns blazing. Jury is still out if he's competent or not.
I guess you can equate the two - Gillard was competent, definitely. She passed a lot of good legislation. Shitty messaging that was dramatically amplified by the Murdoch press though - 'the Real Julia' etc.
I can't really think of a recent Labor leader that hasn't been pretty competent, really. I'd argue Rudd wasn't completely- smart guy, but acutely aware of that. Definitely didn't play well with others. And good grief I was sick to death of seeing him on the news 24/7 trying to 'win' every news cycle.
We definitely haven't seen a Hawk/Keating type of charisma in a long time, from either party. I think a lot of folks were hoping that would be Turnbull, but man were we all wrong there. Reminds me of Keating giving Rudd advice about Turnbull - he's truly a very clever, brilliant man in a lot of ways, Keating said. He'll run rings around most folks and he can execute strategy. But his great failing - he has no judgement. Wasn't that proved, time and time again, from UteGate all the way through to handling the leadership challenge from Dutton.
And now we have fucking ScoMo. Man, imagine losing to that sack of jelly. No wonder he believes in prosperity gospels and believes he talks with God in tongues. He's the living embodiment of failing upwards.
I know the popular view in the party is that the last election was lost because they tried to pitch the electorate a Big Vision, but from outside the country it looked more like they couldn’t effectively counter the LNP messaging machine.
When I said leadership, I didn't just mean the PM/OppLead. I meant the top level of the party. Though I do consider selling yourself to the electorate as a competency for PM, so I'm not sold on Shorten or Albanese as "competent" in that regard.
That it's been nothing but backbiting and knifings (for both parties), since Howard left, is kinda pathetic.
John Howard was the last Prime Minister we had to serve out a full term. Let that sink in.
But because Labor have been more preoccupied with their own issues, we've let the LNP run the table the last couple elections.
Or just let a Nat open their mouth:
Regarding Shorten, I blame him completely. As leader he has the responsibility to set the direction and tone for Labor. And at the end, he just did... Nothing. Passed everything LNP wanted, and seemed mostly concerned with not ceding votes to the Greens.
I’ve been caught in 3 catastrophic bushfires. I really don’t want to be caught in a 4th, but it’s looking likely.
the shit labour tell themselves about what the electorate thinks is amazingly far removed from the actual situation on the ground
the universal sense of voters was that both parties are exactly the same and there's no point voting for either of them, but labour have convinced themselves that they ran on the most progressive platform in decades. i think they fail to understand just how few people were actually listening to them. like, i didn't pay attention to the federal election at all and i had no idea what their platform was even supposed to be
edit: a good jobs program in central queensland could win a federal election for labour on its own. those all used to be labour seats guys. has anyone thought about nationalising the coal mines
Being told 'if you don't like it, don't vote for us' by the Shadow Treasurer didn't help that, either.
100% jobs programs in central Queensland would absolutely help - Far North as well, to an extent. That's more or less what half of Queensland viewed Adani as, any way. Good, well paying jobs in their heartland.
please don't tell me. i assure you i've been told before and my brain immediately rejected the knowledge
Don't know if this impacts you Loki, but good lord it's hell out there
Yeah Greater Sydney is me.
I was in the Illawarra next to the National Park for the 1994 Eastern Seaboard fires, watching the fire spread down the escarpment towards our house. I was in the Southern Highlands for the 2001 Black Christmas fire, where it reached about 100 meters from my house, and a huge fire in 2003 that got similarly close. All three cut off the only 2 roads out of town (sounds like an episode of the Simpsons, but small/coastal towns in Australia have laughably bad access roads).
Where I live now there’s more access roads, but all of them simply lead to miles of dry, kindling-like bushland.
This summer is going to be awful. Today I went out and bought enough carriers to get all our pets out at once.
I was at RMC at the time and I remember standing on the parade ground watching burning leaves drop around us, even though the fire was on the other side of the city, not to mention the smoke being so thick you couldn't drive through it. My folks stayed at my apartment because their power/water was intermittent.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone, it was absolutely terrifying. To hear our Prime Minister/Vice Prime Minister lash out at climate change as being hysterical is so goddamn infuriating.
Also: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-11/carol-sparks-climate-change-federal-government-claire-pontin/11691444
Yeah basically July was clearly not the right time to talk about fires and climate change, and now’s not the right time cuz the fires are still burning, even as the mayors of rural towns where folks have died are saying TALK THE FUCK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE. The extent of the dissonance is simply mind-blowing.
I remember thinking "well that's it, we're fucked" on election night, and here we are.
10000% same, I could not hit that Agree button hard enough so I hit it multiple times instead.
I mean this is coming from the second-in-command of the state that's currently on fire:
I MEAN....
COME ON. You can't make this bullshit up!
The rhetoric used by the Liberals, especially as of late, feels bloody close to the NRA and Republican messaging around gun control.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
But our leader is certainly a particularly big Trump fanboy.
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/now-is-not-the-time-to-discuss-how-we-ignored-decades-of-warnings-that-this-would-happen/
It's exactly the same. It's the, "It's too soon to talk about tragedy X." bullshit. Because somehow talking about policies to prevent a tragedy from reoccurring taints things. If someone tried that line to stop discussion of getting a stop sign put in after someone's granny got clocked by a speeding driver they'd get their ass kicked, but it works like a charm if you have 50 shooting victims or half your country/province/state is on fire.
That's sky news pushing the climate agenda line, and a liberal politician trying very hard to push recalibration of data as a thing to be concerned about, but not actually saying that the BoM is part of the agenda.
It's a politician saying what he thinks his base wants to hear, while not actually saying the lie that would get him in trouble.
Better this than straight out accusing the BoM of being part of the deep state.
And hopefully it belies an attitude of letting the department continue to do its job, without active climate denial meddling from the top
Not blaming Labor, but the Greens, who were never in power. What.
Edit: ah, I see. He was taking his directions from tomorrow's toilet paper:
If only there was a party who had taken climate change and it's effects going forward seriously.
Oh. Wait.
On the election, I've made my feelings about Shorten clear in the past.
He let his pettiness and ambition trash two promising PMs and then managed to lose two elections to some of the most incompetent PMs in recent history.
At Rudd's second exit I had hoped to see Albanese take leadership, but whatever concessions he had to make to the party to step into leadership after the most recent election has made him weak willed and bereft of former morals.
Penny Wong is the only senior member of that party I have much faith in these days, there needs to be an infusion of younger blood to draw my interest.
They haven't gotten my primary vote in a long time, there are much more attractive currently that aren't as milquetoast.
I think it's just a common misspelling.
I think you mean Boomer Memes? Or fuck ups. If there is a difference now.
.... WHY IS THIS MAN EMPLOYED
Also the fault being insufficient scrub burning is basically a reheated Trump talking point about the California fires.
Now is not the time to politicize the bushfires. Anyone who does so, while the country is burning, is reprehensible.
Unless we can stick it to a minority party that has never held power, and blame them for the death of two people.
What was stopping the RFS doing it was the fact that Australia is dry as fuck right now and they didn't want to start a fire that could easily spread out of control and they didn't have the manpower to fight.