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Synagogue Shooting in Pittsburgh October 27 2018

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    But they're using extreme caution so that's fine

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    The people in the caravan are a month away

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    ceres wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »

    That is really sad, and I get it. I mean not the racism part, but I get struggling with mental health and how bad it can get sometimes.

    It is sad. And I hope despite a lack of focus on mental health he can get the help he needs, and we don't know what the underlying reason for it was (mental health can be complicated).

    But it'd help if major news outlets and the President didn't spout utter bullshit that exacerbates the issue, and blurs the line.

    Thats true, but didnt impact this guy. I doubt he was listening much to Trump or Fox News.

  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    The people in the caravan are a month away

    At least.

    Given the number of children, I doubt they can keep a 15+ mile a day pace. I'd put it closer to Christmas.

    No matter where you go...there you are.
    ~ Buckaroo Banzai
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Some local landowner and/or folks working on their property are going to be killed by these militia types when they tell them to get off of their private land.

    Probably weeks before the caravan gets anywhere close.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Some local landowner and/or folks working on their property are going to be killed by these militia types when they tell them to get off of their private land.

    Probably weeks before the caravan gets anywhere close.

    I'd be less concerned about that and more concerned about some random person who looks at them funny at a drive thru or WalMart parking lot. Similar to the murders that happened around the Bundy standoff.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2018
    Enc wrote: »
    Some local landowner and/or folks working on their property are going to be killed by these militia types when they tell them to get off of their private land.

    Probably weeks before the caravan gets anywhere close.

    I'm sure these people have the utmost respect for authority telling them not to shoot people. As we've seen.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    The discussion of the caravan and militia can go in the immigration policy thread

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2018
    I'm still on the email list for the congregation where I grew up in PA. I've never met the current rabbi; it's been on my to-do list every time we visit and then I end up not doing it. It's mostly administrative weekly calendar stuff, but usually about once a week he says something about the reading for the week ahead of services. Friday he sent one out talking about the special service for the night, and today he sent this (edited for length and identifying info):
    Dear Chaveirim/Friends:

    It was incredible seeing so many members of our community, as well as many visitors, showing up on Shabbat to show their solidarity with the Jewish community in the wake of the mass shooting in Pittsburgh. On Friday night, our sanctuary was nearly full. The following morning, we showed up to find a bouquet of flowers on our doorstep, with a number of notes attached, from the [nearby church]. Throughout the week I received a number of emails from colleagues in [town] and from complete strangers, expressing their sadness, their horror, their support. Someone attached heart balloons to the railing near our front walk. The first words of shared grief and support came from the members of the [nearby mosque] who had come to speak with us a year ago.

    About voting: It's easy to feel despair and powerless in the face of tragedy. Yet, tomorrow presents us with the opportunity to actually do something. When elections come along and I question whether my single tiny vote matters, I often remind myself of Maimonides' teaching about Yom Kippur. He imagines that the entire world's sins are piled on one pan of a giant scale, while the entire world's mitzvot are piled on the other pan, and that the two pans are exactly and evenly balanced. The next action that a person takes, either for good or for evil, will tip the balance one way or the other.

    Similarly, we can each imagine that each election is equally balanced, and our single vote will tip the scale one way or the other. It is our obligation - for each one of us - to make our voice heard. So no matter what, no matter how inconvenient, be sure to cast your vote in tomorrow's election.

    I know they appreciated every bit of support they got, and I am positive the local Jewish communities supported in any way by those here did as well. I'm glad I got to read about it.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    .

    Gaddez on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    It's interesting in a sick way how that militia post ramps up the antisemitism.

    It starts out calling the caravan "international criminals" which I at first just substituted with foreign. Then after reading the final line about the media, I realized that international criminals was referring just as much to the Soros funding conspiracy as it was to the people being from a different nation.

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  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    It's interesting in a sick way how that militia post ramps up the antisemitism.

    It starts out calling the caravan "international criminals" which I at first just substituted with foreign. Then after reading the final line about the media, I realized that international criminals was referring just as much to the Soros funding conspiracy as it was to the people being from a different nation.

    Anything in that context surrounded by $$ is pretty unambiguous.

    ugh the youtube ads we have to sit through here.. while I'm watching kurzgesagt and scishow kids with my son. I don't want him to see that stuff. But really? That kind of political ad ahead of SciShow kids? It's aimed at small children.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    It's interesting in a sick way how that militia post ramps up the antisemitism.

    It starts out calling the caravan "international criminals" which I at first just substituted with foreign. Then after reading the final line about the media, I realized that international criminals was referring just as much to the Soros funding conspiracy as it was to the people being from a different nation.

    Anything in that context surrounded by $$ is pretty unambiguous.

    ugh the youtube ads we have to sit through here.. while I'm watching kurzgesagt and scishow kids with my son. I don't want him to see that stuff. But really? That kind of political ad ahead of SciShow kids? It's aimed at small children.

    Political ads or like those CRTV ads? The latter seem to popup in strange places, as though they just place them to troll libs rather than attract viewers.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    People have been super-actively using Youtube to radicalize even younger children for the last several years - a lot of popular aimed-at-kids channels sneak some pretty shady politics in. Political ads probably just get plastered everywhere, but there's enough deliberate sketchiness going on that the whole site feels suspect sometimes.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    People have been super-actively using Youtube to radicalize even younger children for the last several years - a lot of popular aimed-at-kids channels sneak some pretty shady politics in. Political ads probably just get plastered everywhere, but there's enough deliberate sketchiness going on that the whole site feels suspect sometimes.

    I'm curious; what channels are you talking about?

  • PhasenPhasen Hell WorldRegistered User regular
    Youtube wasnt the first to do this. Thomas the Tank engine and curious george have some whack politics.

    psn: PhasenWeeple
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    This isn't on topic

  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    So @So It Goes I don't know if this is stretching the on-topic/off-topic boundary too much, but in the spirit of what's been going it appears that white supremacists are preparing to rally outside of Philadelphia's National Museum of American Jewish History


    Twitter user is an author

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  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    dimes to dollars Philly won't allow it (and with good cause)

  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    dimes to dollars Philly won't allow it (and with good cause)

    The populace, city government or both?

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • ahavaahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    dimes to dollars Philly won't allow it (and with good cause)

    The populace, city government or both?

    The populace.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I'd wager both.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2018
    oh ffs

    I like the idea floated in the comments about greeting them with a bunch of Grittys, and idea of a neo nazi picking glitter out of his ass for a month does appeal. Especially since parts of the country are currently represented in government by people who are more or less openly antisemitic. On the other hand, I don't know if I can deal with leaders both-sidesing whatever comes of it right now. Which is hopefully nothing. I hope everyone just says "meh" and goes home.

    That said, with some effort spent tracking down the actual rally event page (I'm not posting the event page here, PM me if you want it), the location is listed as Independence Hall, specifically right near the Liberty Bell, to the south of it. The map used in that twitter post only barely even shows that address in the southwest of the image. That's very close to the museum but it does make a little more sense at least for something that claims to be about "patriotism" and not "roughing up the Jews."

    Who knows where they'll end up or who will end up in attendance, but if they do stay at the address they've posted, if you go to the museum itself you probably won't see the rally at all unless it's big or really flashy. It's literally on the other side of the park and through a bunch of trees. Posts like that really weird me out. If the idea is for people to hang out at the museum in case they show up then fine, but if you want to counter protest go to where the rally is.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • ahavaahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    The amount of police in and around independence mall is ridiculous anyway.

    Although I don't still Philadelphia taking it lying down.

    We Boo'd Santa.

  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    They're going there to get attacked, to get to be Martyrs with that sweet paycheck from Fox (insert comment about the 72 virgins being the Proud Boys themselves).

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    what is their rally going to be exactly? if it's what one would assume, philly doesn't have to grant their permit to gather.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    I think the concern is less the people hosting the event themselves and more the fascist groups the rally is likely to attract. I would feel seriously remiss if I gave the rally the extra attention by posting the link here, but if you follow the trail from the twitter post you can find it. It's run by people who think antifa are the real bad guys which does not bode well, but truly I feel like the citizens of Philly can handle themselves. I do hope any counter-protesters come with a permit, because those are kind of a big deal.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Hopefully it's only like 5 guys in masks who won't talk about who they are or why they're here, and who don't want to interact with anyone, but counter-protesting it regardless is still important.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/local/public-safety/dc-man-arrested-on-gun-charge-after-relatives-alert-police-to-his-alleged-white-nationalist-outbursts/2018/11/13/e3a6d2fa-e771-11e8-b8dc-66cca409c180_story.html?noredirect=on&__twitter_impression=true

    Nazi who said Tree of Life victim's deserved it turned in by family for gun charges.
    A D.C. man who described himself as a white nationalist to law enforcement officers and became a social-media follower of the suspect in the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting has been arrested on a gun charge after his worried relatives contacted the authorities, according to federal court filings.

    Jeffrey R. Clark Jr., 30, is charged with illegally possessing a firearm and a high-speed magazine and made his initial court appearance Tuesday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Washington. He was ordered held until Friday.

    Clark, who lives in the Bloomingdale neighborhood, was arrested Nov. 9, court filings show, after two family members alerted police to his increasingly agitated outbursts, including that the 11 victims of the Pittsburgh shooting “deserved it.” The outbursts occurred in the wake of Clark’s brother’s suicide.

    Edward Clark, 23, fatally shot himself on Roosevelt Island near Washington within hours of the Oct. 27 Pittsburgh shooting at Tree of Life synagogue, the court filings for Jeffrey Clark said.

    Relatives told police both brothers had been involved in alt-right movements, the court records said. Jeffrey Clark told FBI agents he and his brother became interested in guns in 2016 “because they believed there was going to be a civil war,” according to an account of his statement filed in court.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    On one hand I want to loooooooooool and 'awesome' that like 8 times

    On the other hand that family must be going through fucking hell right now, they have one son who just killed himself and another who seemed poised to kill other people, quite possibly federal agents.

    On a third hand while it's comforting to know that he's unable to do harm at least for the time being, knowing that there are many more like him, some of whom he was in direct communication with, feels bad.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    ceres wrote: »
    On one hand I want to loooooooooool and 'awesome' that like 8 times

    On the other hand that family must be going through fucking hell right now, they have one son who just killed himself and another who seemed poised to kill other people, quite possibly federal agents.

    On a third hand while it's comforting to know that he's unable to do harm at least for the time being, knowing that there are many more like him, some of whom he was in direct communication with, feels bad.

    On the fourth hand: A pang of simultaneous dread and relief; as WaPo leaves out some disconcerting context of that suicide

    Per the criminal complaint

    The brother, every bit the Nazi, shitbag gab user his brother is, killed himself on Teddy Roosevelt Island sometime before 1245, a couple hours after news of the synagogue shooting. He had 8 rounds left in his magazine, and two others with 20 more (I assume 2 x 10, not 2 x 20). He did not leave a note.

    The surviving brother called their mom claiming he had woken up at noon and was concerned to find his 23 year old brother missing, and said he was going to file a police report.

    Because that's what meth head Nazis with illegal gun connections do when their adult brothers aren't home when they wake up at noon. Call their mom and tell them that they were going to call the police.

    Sounds like that suicide could have gone another way, and he was certainly aware of it.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    At any rate the family intervened in another soon-to-be criminal. More people need to turn in those they know who are dangerous before it happens.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    ceres wrote: »
    On one hand I want to loooooooooool and 'awesome' that like 8 times

    On the other hand that family must be going through fucking hell right now, they have one son who just killed himself and another who seemed poised to kill other people, quite possibly federal agents.

    On a third hand while it's comforting to know that he's unable to do harm at least for the time being, knowing that there are many more like him, some of whom he was in direct communication with, feels bad.

    On the fourth hand: A pang of simultaneous dread and relief; as WaPo leaves out some disconcerting context of that suicide

    Per the criminal complaint

    The brother, every bit the Nazi, shitbag gab user his brother is, killed himself on Teddy Roosevelt Island sometime before 1245, a couple hours after news of the synagogue shooting. He had 8 rounds left in his magazine, and two others with 20 more (I assume 2 x 10, not 2 x 20). He did not leave a note.

    The surviving brother called their mom claiming he had woken up at noon and was concerned to find his 23 year old brother missing, and said he was going to file a police report.

    Because that's what meth head Nazis with illegal gun connections do when their adult brothers aren't home when they wake up at noon. Call their mom and tell them that they were going to call the police.

    Sounds like that suicide could have gone another way, and he was certainly aware of it.

    Touche on that fourth hand. I went to a few different articles and couldn't find any context for the suicide at all, so I had to make it up in my head. I guess I still do, but now with slightly more info. I do feel terrible for that family, and even more terrible because every neo nazi racist in the country now knows exactly who turned in their friend. I'm sure turning this guy in, no matter who these people are, came at no small personal risk.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    Man, some of the stuff in that affadavit...
    Jeffrey Clark believed that a homosexual Jewish couple was having an adopted baby circumcised that week, and that justified Bowers' actions.

    And a Gab username based on Roof's haircut, of all the fucking things.

    Definitely hope the rest of the family is safe, but wow am I glad those two aren't on the streets right now.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    One of the many tragedies of this sort of Internet-fueled indoctrination is that the families are often so removed from their children's online "social" lives that they don't realize it is happening. It's not families passing down hate. It's kids getting introduced to violent white supremacy because they are watching the wrong Youtube streamers.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    I'm hesitant to paint the relatives too fondly. I'm glad they did the right thing here, and who knows what they think and what they like, but they still did the right thing and may see some consequences from it. Chances are pretty good that they did so knowing that to some degree, and it's a big deal. They could have let it go and hoped for the best, and for whatever reason they decided not to do that. It's worth being grateful for, whether or not they'd enabled or encouraged their views and opinions. Because even if they did at some point, it's just nice to know that there's a line.

    That said, it is entirely possible that the family just had no idea it was happening or that it was that bad until the shooting and the brother's death. It wouldn't necessarily be on any social media platform they'd see. Maybe he really did just get up to all that shit on his own with only the help of the internet.

    And that is why my son is allowed to use that stuff when he's 30.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Remember when people used to say "the TV is not a babysitter"?

    Man, we did not know when we were well off, did we?

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    One of the many tragedies of this sort of Internet-fueled indoctrination is that the families are often so removed from their children's online "social" lives that they don't realize it is happening. It's not families passing down hate. It's kids getting introduced to violent white supremacy because they are watching the wrong Youtube streamers.

    The right is already preying upon this. (Don't) see Prager U.

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