R U D E B U S T E R
or to give a less basic answer, Lantern.
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Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
edited November 2018
Don't think I really realized how creepy "Kris" is until the end. The game was telegraphing it hard too.
His side of the room is kind of depressing. His covered eyes, his movements when he's being pushed around or sits are so puppetlike and lifeless.
Without you hijacking the body as the heart, sounds like everybody else might have thought he was strange aswell. From how Rudy mentions you used to hide under Noelle's bed to scare her and how Asgore says you don't like being hugged.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
So I finished it again a second time to go over a few things I know I missed, and for fun stuffs. I kind of got a lot of ideas about the ending and such
At first I was super confused by the ending because seriously, where does that come from? But after reading a lot of ideas, and really paying attention to what a lot of the towns monsters say it started to give me an idea.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
Also with regards to the secret boss
I did him the first time the pacifist way because I heard it was harder. This second playthrough, I did the fighting way and that is definitely a lot harder. I mean not only did it feel longer, but you dont get all those rounds of reduced difficulty bullet mode. Some of those configurations are way easier that way. Also, it sure as hell seems like he does a LOT more damage at the end. I died about 8-10 times and almost all of them were when he was a few attacks from dying. Sometimes I would go all in on attacking because I was sure he was done, and he would not be and just getting hit a few times would wipe out my party from fairly healthy. I kept trying to make it a goal to make it past the special attack part (which is around where his damage goes up) with the Top Cake but I never did, even when I won. The whole experience though made me REALLY love Toby's combat when there is a challenge enough to make you use all its parts. I felt so much pressure just to not take too many hits from each bullet config and try to finally master them so I wouldn't take damage just so I could get through the fight faster to not run out of good items. I also noticed the "random" healing amount items seem to work better on certain characters. The hearts donut does little healing to Kris but the chocolate does a lot, for instance.
Also, I could be off on this one, but with regards to some flavor text at the end
When you search Alphys' computer and it says it is off, so it finally feel peaceful. I can't help but think that is how Toby feels with all the work making the game after his post about it
Also, I could be off on this one, but with regards to some flavor text at the end
When you search Alphys' computer and it says it is off, so it finally feel peaceful. I can't help but think that is how Toby feels with all the work making the game after his post about it
Don't think I really realized how creepy "Kris" is until the end. The game was telegraphing it hard too.
His side of the room is kind of depressing. His covered eyes, his movements when he's being pushed around or sits are so puppetlike and lifeless.
Without you hijacking the body as the heart, sounds like everybody else might have thought he was strange aswell. From how Rudy mentions you used to hide under Noelle's bed to scare her and how Asgore says you don't like being hugged.
I think that's just who Kris is.
A lonely kid who gets bullied and doesn't win anything.
YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE WHO YOU ARE
NEO|PhyteThey follow the stars, bound together.Strands in a braid till the end.Registered Userregular
I have seen some interesting speculation elsewhere.
Ralsei may be up to something. Nothing particularly concrete, just questions like why is he sitting around in an empty kingdom, why does a darkener look exactly like a boss monster, what was he talking to Kris about after telling you to go focus on Susie.
It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Also, I could be off on this one, but with regards to some flavor text at the end
When you search Alphys' computer and it says it is off, so it finally feel peaceful. I can't help but think that is how Toby feels with all the work making the game after his post about it
Doubt it.
Dog's in the Libabrary making games...
Yeah I know. I don't think it was intentional, but it is what I thought of for an otherwise kind of out of place line
I automatically assumed Ralsei was a deceptive Flowey type throughout the game. Now that I've finished it, I don't think that's the case anymore, buuut I agree that he knows stuff (probably about the player and the player's role in the game) and is trying to do, well, things. I don't know what kind of things, but things indeed.
So I finished it again a second time to go over a few things I know I missed, and for fun stuffs. I kind of got a lot of ideas about the ending and such
At first I was super confused by the ending because seriously, where does that come from? But after reading a lot of ideas, and really paying attention to what a lot of the towns monsters say it started to give me an idea.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
I didn't notice this at all until someone pointed it out, but..... after Kris rips out their SOUL and slams it in the birdcage, you can.... move it around still. You still have control over the SOUL, but not Kris themself.
Don't think I really realized how creepy "Kris" is until the end. The game was telegraphing it hard too.
His side of the room is kind of depressing. His covered eyes, his movements when he's being pushed around or sits are so puppetlike and lifeless.
Without you hijacking the body as the heart, sounds like everybody else might have thought he was strange aswell. From how Rudy mentions you used to hide under Noelle's bed to scare her and how Asgore says you don't like being hugged.
Honestly, I'm not sure Kris was creepy or evil as such.
He just seems to be kind of the Less Favorite Child, a loner, and a bit of a social pariah. Pretty much everything the characters mention Kris doing is basically the kind of mean pranks a child trying to get attention from under the shadow of an overachieving older sibling would do. He has almost nothing of his own, while Asriel seems to have gotten everything. Hell, he even gets the shitty knockoff controller while Asriel has an official one. People constantly mention Asriel when talking to Kris, saying they miss him, and they hope he'll be back soon.
Another option is that Kris did not actually exist per so, and he was clumsily inserted by us playing. That is why he has nothing, why the memories people have of him seem so bare and general - he's just a reverse-Gaster, sort of inserted into people's memories the way Gaster was erased from them, but things just kinda creak around the edges.
So I finished it again a second time to go over a few things I know I missed, and for fun stuffs. I kind of got a lot of ideas about the ending and such
At first I was super confused by the ending because seriously, where does that come from? But after reading a lot of ideas, and really paying attention to what a lot of the towns monsters say it started to give me an idea.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
I didn't notice this at all until someone pointed it out, but..... after Kris rips out their SOUL and slams it in the birdcage, you can.... move it around still. You still have control over the SOUL, but not Kris themself.
Hmmmmmmm~~~
I feel like there are perhaps three characters in play in the ending. Kris, You, and [YOURNAME] (the same personification of your control in games that Chara is replaced by at the end of a Genocide ending in Undertale (they're always with you)). Kris is a troubled kid who perhaps wouldn't be acting the way you do when you play the game. But [YOURNAME], who you bring into the world by playing the game and saving over Kris's file, is bad news for both you and Kris. I think what's happening in the end is they are taking both you and Kris out of the picture.
There are holes in this idea, though. Namely the existance of the cage to begin with, and the stain by Kris's bed. Those could be significant outside of this suggested scenario
So I finished it again a second time to go over a few things I know I missed, and for fun stuffs. I kind of got a lot of ideas about the ending and such
At first I was super confused by the ending because seriously, where does that come from? But after reading a lot of ideas, and really paying attention to what a lot of the towns monsters say it started to give me an idea.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
I didn't notice this at all until someone pointed it out, but..... after Kris rips out their SOUL and slams it in the birdcage, you can.... move it around still. You still have control over the SOUL, but not Kris themself.
Hmmmmmmm~~~
I feel like there are perhaps three characters in play in the ending. Kris, You, and [YOURNAME] (the same personification of your control in games that Chara is replaced by at the end of a Genocide ending in Undertale (they're always with you)). Kris is a troubled kid who perhaps wouldn't be acting the way you do when you play the game. But [YOURNAME], who you bring into the world by playing the game and saving over Kris's file, is bad news for both you and Kris. I think what's happening in the end is they are taking both you and Kris out of the picture.
There are holes in this idea, though. Namely the existance of the cage to begin with, and the stain by Kris's bed. Those could be significant outside of this suggested scenario
Hmm. In Undertale, Chara was the soul of first human child who the Dreemurs adopted and was friends with Asriel, right? And Frisk picked that soul up when he possibly died or near-died falling on Chara's grave under the flower bed at the start of the game? I never really understood the metaphysics of what was going on with genocide ending.
If the fountain in Ralsei's kingdom is giving it form as Ralsei claims, does that mean that the Card Kingdom is also being given form by its fountain? Assuming that the fountain only recently appeared, did the Card Kingdom even exist at all before then? If the Card Kingdom's fountain is now closed, does that mean that it no longer exists?
My theory is that Ralsei is just making the prophecy up. He opened the second fountain himself in order to create what he could claim was a crisis, then pulled in people to go on an adventure with him and be his friends.
It would be really fucked up if Lancer no longer exists not because his fountain needed to be closed in order to save the world, but because his fountain needed to be closed in order for Ralsei's fake prophecy to not fall apart.
edit: Doing all of this in untagged spoilers is kind of a pain.
So I finished it again a second time to go over a few things I know I missed, and for fun stuffs. I kind of got a lot of ideas about the ending and such
At first I was super confused by the ending because seriously, where does that come from? But after reading a lot of ideas, and really paying attention to what a lot of the towns monsters say it started to give me an idea.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
I didn't notice this at all until someone pointed it out, but..... after Kris rips out their SOUL and slams it in the birdcage, you can.... move it around still. You still have control over the SOUL, but not Kris themself.
Hmmmmmmm~~~
I feel like there are perhaps three characters in play in the ending. Kris, You, and [YOURNAME] (the same personification of your control in games that Chara is replaced by at the end of a Genocide ending in Undertale (they're always with you)). Kris is a troubled kid who perhaps wouldn't be acting the way you do when you play the game. But [YOURNAME], who you bring into the world by playing the game and saving over Kris's file, is bad news for both you and Kris. I think what's happening in the end is they are taking both you and Kris out of the picture.
There are holes in this idea, though. Namely the existance of the cage to begin with, and the stain by Kris's bed. Those could be significant outside of this suggested scenario
Hmm. In Undertale, Chara was the soul of first human child who the Dreemurs adopted and was friends with Asriel, right? And Frisk picked that soul up when he possibly died or near-died falling on Chara's grave under the flower bed at the start of the game? I never really understood the metaphysics of what was going on with genocide ending.
My theory is that whatever you named the fallen child is expected to be the usual name you give to the soulless abominations that you inject into worlds and puppet around for your amusement. However, the game tricks you, having that actually be the name of a long-gone NPC while the character you control maintains their own identity. They have their own name, and their own past, but as long as you're in control you'll never get to see any of it.
In the genocide run, you completely reject Frisk's identity, twisting his behavior into something that only a player would be willing or capable of doing. In doing so, you brute-force him into being just another manifestation of your usual avatar, turning him from Frisk into the identity that you originally tried to give him. In doing so, you sort of conflate your avatar with the fallen child's identity. Ultimately, you create a being with no purpose other than to carry out one final run of a game that you've ceased to see as anything other than a game, before you move on to playing other things.
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
If the fountain in Ralsei's kingdom is giving it form as Ralsei claims, does that mean that the Card Kingdom is also being given form by its fountain? Assuming that the fountain only recently appeared, did the Card Kingdom even exist at all before then? If the Card Kingdom's fountain is now closed, does that mean that it no longer exists?
My theory is that Ralsei is just making the prophecy up. He opened the second fountain himself in order to create what he could claim was a crisis, then pulled in people to go on an adventure with him and be his friends.
It would be really fucked up if Lancer no longer exists not because his fountain needed to be closed in order to save the world, but because his fountain needed to be closed in order for Ralsei's fake prophecy to not fall apart.
edit: Doing all of this in untagged spoilers is kind of a pain.
So I finished it again a second time to go over a few things I know I missed, and for fun stuffs. I kind of got a lot of ideas about the ending and such
At first I was super confused by the ending because seriously, where does that come from? But after reading a lot of ideas, and really paying attention to what a lot of the towns monsters say it started to give me an idea.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
I didn't notice this at all until someone pointed it out, but..... after Kris rips out their SOUL and slams it in the birdcage, you can.... move it around still. You still have control over the SOUL, but not Kris themself.
Hmmmmmmm~~~
I feel like there are perhaps three characters in play in the ending. Kris, You, and [YOURNAME] (the same personification of your control in games that Chara is replaced by at the end of a Genocide ending in Undertale (they're always with you)). Kris is a troubled kid who perhaps wouldn't be acting the way you do when you play the game. But [YOURNAME], who you bring into the world by playing the game and saving over Kris's file, is bad news for both you and Kris. I think what's happening in the end is they are taking both you and Kris out of the picture.
There are holes in this idea, though. Namely the existance of the cage to begin with, and the stain by Kris's bed. Those could be significant outside of this suggested scenario
Hmm. In Undertale, Chara was the soul of first human child who the Dreemurs adopted and was friends with Asriel, right? And Frisk picked that soul up when he possibly died or near-died falling on Chara's grave under the flower bed at the start of the game? I never really understood the metaphysics of what was going on with genocide ending.
My theory is that whatever you named the fallen child is expected to be the usual name you give to the soulless abominations that you inject into worlds and puppet around for your amusement. However, the game tricks you, having that actually be the name of a long-gone NPC while the character you control maintains their own identity. They have their own name, and their own past, but as long as you're in control you'll never get to see any of it.
In the genocide run, you completely reject Frisk's identity, twisting his behavior into something that only a player would be willing or capable of doing. In doing so, you brute-force him into being just another manifestation of your usual avatar, turning him from Frisk into the identity that you originally tried to give him. In doing so, you sort of conflate your avatar with the fallen child's identity. Ultimately, you create a being with no purpose other than to carry out one final run of a game that you've ceased to see as anything other than a game, before you move on to playing other things.
frisk's gender is never explicitly stated and thus the game uses a gender neutral pronoun because of that
it is however correct to refer to frisk as they/them for that reason. probably kris as well? kris's gender is never explicitly stated either, right? i decided to go with they/them for kris either way.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I am pretty sure I saw Kris referred to as him multiple times, including on twitter? I think Toby went with a definitive character this time. Seems to be the overall theme of the game.
I am pretty sure I saw Kris referred to as him multiple times, including on twitter? I think Toby went with a definitive character this time. Seems to be the overall theme of the game.
i can't recall the game referring to kris's gender but i could also just be forgetting, yeah?
i also can't seem to find any mention from toby either on his twitter or that twitlonger that he did regarding kris's gender
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
frisk's gender is never explicitly stated and thus the game uses a gender neutral pronoun because of that
it is however correct to refer to frisk as they/them for that reason. probably kris as well? kris's gender is never explicitly stated either, right? i decided to go with they/them for kris either way.
If you launch the game after a pacifist ending, Flowey specifically uses "they" pronouns for Frisk.
frisk's gender is never explicitly stated and thus the game uses a gender neutral pronoun because of that
it is however correct to refer to frisk as they/them for that reason. probably kris as well? kris's gender is never explicitly stated either, right? i decided to go with they/them for kris either way.
If you launch the game after a pacifist ending, Flowey specifically uses "they" pronouns for Frisk.
frisk's gender is never explicitly stated and thus the game uses a gender neutral pronoun because of that
it is however correct to refer to frisk as they/them for that reason. probably kris as well? kris's gender is never explicitly stated either, right? i decided to go with they/them for kris either way.
If you launch the game after a pacifist ending, Flowey specifically uses "they" pronouns for Frisk.
Isn't Flowey talking to the player/Chara then?
there's a line "Let Frisk live their life", which isn't conclusive to me re: gender either way but oh my god
Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
frisk's gender is never explicitly stated and thus the game uses a gender neutral pronoun because of that
it is however correct to refer to frisk as they/them for that reason. probably kris as well? kris's gender is never explicitly stated either, right? i decided to go with they/them for kris either way.
If you launch the game after a pacifist ending, Flowey specifically uses "they" pronouns for Frisk.
Isn't Flowey talking to the player/Chara then?
there's a line "Let Frisk live their life", which isn't conclusive to me re: gender either way but oh my god
Posts
https://tobyfox.bandcamp.com/track/field-of-hopes-and-dreams
or to give a less basic answer, Lantern.
Without you hijacking the body as the heart, sounds like everybody else might have thought he was strange aswell. From how Rudy mentions you used to hide under Noelle's bed to scare her and how Asgore says you don't like being hugged.
Dr Chaos kind of pointed it out too. Someone had mentioned how it was odd that you save over Kris's name in the save files when you first save the game. Between that, how so many people acting like you are being different, and the whole emptiness of everything Kris related, it kind of makes the ending make a little more sense. Basically you take over Kris in the game. Your choices are different than his would be. I am guessing he is not too happy about that, so at the end (which is when you stop getting to play the game oddly enough) he is ripping you out of his body. I guess the whole Knife thing is just supposed to tell you who Kris REALLY was the whole time before.
Also, while I am not as sure about this, I kind of wonder if the "Knight" they all talk about in the Dark World could be Chara / Real Kris. Some of the vague comments from Jevil and The King seem to hint towards him being different, which would be odd for someone NOT the townspeople to say.
Also with regards to the secret boss
Also, I could be off on this one, but with regards to some flavor text at the end
Doubt it.
A lonely kid who gets bullied and doesn't win anything.
YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE WHO YOU ARE
End:
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
Yeah I know. I don't think it was intentional, but it is what I thought of for an otherwise kind of out of place line
Hmmmmmmm~~~
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
He just seems to be kind of the Less Favorite Child, a loner, and a bit of a social pariah. Pretty much everything the characters mention Kris doing is basically the kind of mean pranks a child trying to get attention from under the shadow of an overachieving older sibling would do. He has almost nothing of his own, while Asriel seems to have gotten everything. Hell, he even gets the shitty knockoff controller while Asriel has an official one. People constantly mention Asriel when talking to Kris, saying they miss him, and they hope he'll be back soon.
Another option is that Kris did not actually exist per so, and he was clumsily inserted by us playing. That is why he has nothing, why the memories people have of him seem so bare and general - he's just a reverse-Gaster, sort of inserted into people's memories the way Gaster was erased from them, but things just kinda creak around the edges.
There are holes in this idea, though. Namely the existance of the cage to begin with, and the stain by Kris's bed. Those could be significant outside of this suggested scenario
My theory is that Ralsei is just making the prophecy up. He opened the second fountain himself in order to create what he could claim was a crisis, then pulled in people to go on an adventure with him and be his friends.
It would be really fucked up if Lancer no longer exists not because his fountain needed to be closed in order to save the world, but because his fountain needed to be closed in order for Ralsei's fake prophecy to not fall apart.
edit: Doing all of this in untagged spoilers is kind of a pain.
In the genocide run, you completely reject Frisk's identity, twisting his behavior into something that only a player would be willing or capable of doing. In doing so, you brute-force him into being just another manifestation of your usual avatar, turning him from Frisk into the identity that you originally tried to give him. In doing so, you sort of conflate your avatar with the fallen child's identity. Ultimately, you create a being with no purpose other than to carry out one final run of a game that you've ceased to see as anything other than a game, before you move on to playing other things.
Frisk is canonically a them
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
correct
frisk's gender is never explicitly stated and thus the game uses a gender neutral pronoun because of that
it is however correct to refer to frisk as they/them for that reason. probably kris as well? kris's gender is never explicitly stated either, right? i decided to go with they/them for kris either way.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
i can't recall the game referring to kris's gender but i could also just be forgetting, yeah?
i also can't seem to find any mention from toby either on his twitter or that twitlonger that he did regarding kris's gender
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
If you launch the game after a pacifist ending, Flowey specifically uses "they" pronouns for Frisk.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
it's conclusive to me!
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
"Suz."
*furiously unleashes air guitar*
His Undertale ones were somethin.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
The fact that he's the only character that has a voice is a nice little touch. Adds to his otherworldliness.