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[Magic The Gathering: Arena] The CCG that started it all, now F2P. New set incoming

18485878990102

Posts

  • LucedesLucedes *heaps mad squawk* Registered User regular
    should've carried two spears.

    wait, i found this restoration angel, make that three spears.
    oh no, this unburial rites just fell out of my hand, you'll need about seven spears!
    where did this whip of erebos come from? why is venser suddenly here?

    BreakfastPMGriswold
  • GriswoldGriswold (a superset of all possible mathematics) (his body disintegrated)Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    uhhlldfpcfof.jpg

    Ok drafting friends, what do you think for p1p1 here.

    I kinda think Summary? I like Orzhov a lot, and it's not great in that build, but it's removal...

    Partial open otherwise to maybe Rakdos Firewheeler (Though I hate the commit) or maybe savage? Or commit to ill-gotten memery.

    What say you?

    I think it's Firewheeler. I agree with people saying you need an incentive to go Rakdos, but P1P1 Firewheeler is incentive enough for me.

    Griswold on
    Battle.net: Snowcrash#1873
    Path of Exile: snowcrash7
    FFBE: 449,418,519 (Sleuth)
    MTG Arena: Snow_Crash#34179
    Hahnsoo1
  • BreakfastPMBreakfastPM Registered User regular
    Griswold wrote: »
    uhhlldfpcfof.jpg

    Ok drafting friends, what do you think for p1p1 here.

    I kinda think Summary? I like Orzhov a lot, and it's not great in that build, but it's removal...

    Partial open otherwise to maybe Rakdos Firewheeler (Though I hate the commit) or maybe savage? Or commit to ill-gotten memery.

    What say you?

    I think it's Firewheeler. I agree with people saying you need an incentive to go Rakdos, but P1P1 Firewheeler is incentive enough for me.

    You can also just abandon the Rakdos plan if the pick doesn't pan out. Locking yourself into your first pick and putting on blinders is not a great way to draft. That said, I think the pick is Firewheeler. In a non-guilds set a gold card is a hard sell for P1P1 but this is a guild set and you'll see plenty of other gold cards. Plus Mardu is pretty good here.

    Hahnsoo1
  • GriswoldGriswold (a superset of all possible mathematics) (his body disintegrated)Registered User regular
    Lucedes wrote: »
    should've carried two spears.

    wait, i found this restoration angel, make that three spears.
    oh no, this unburial rites just fell out of my hand, you'll need about seven spears!
    where did this whip of erebos come from? why is venser suddenly here?

    when i find myself in times of trouble
    Momentary comes to me
    Blinking cards of value
    Thraggy T...

    Battle.net: Snowcrash#1873
    Path of Exile: snowcrash7
    FFBE: 449,418,519 (Sleuth)
    MTG Arena: Snow_Crash#34179
    ElbasunuBreakfastPMCauldRendHahnsoo1SuperRuperLucedesAntoshka
  • SuperRuperSuperRuper Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Griswold wrote: »
    Lucedes wrote: »
    should've carried two spears.

    wait, i found this restoration angel, make that three spears.
    oh no, this unburial rites just fell out of my hand, you'll need about seven spears!
    where did this whip of erebos come from? why is venser suddenly here?

    when i find myself in times of trouble
    Momentary comes to me
    Blinking cards of value
    Thraggy T...

    And in my hour of darkness,
    Flash in Angel, on ETB,
    Exile trigger targets
    Thraggy T..

    SuperRuper on
    steam_sig.png
    PSN: ChemENGR
    RendHahnsoo1CauldLucedesGriswold
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    yeah i'm of the opinion that you just pick the best card in a vaccuum pack 1 and that's firewheeler

    7UVunkN.jpg
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    SuperRuper wrote: »
    Griswold wrote: »
    Lucedes wrote: »
    should've carried two spears.

    wait, i found this restoration angel, make that three spears.
    oh no, this unburial rites just fell out of my hand, you'll need about seven spears!
    where did this whip of erebos come from? why is venser suddenly here?

    when i find myself in times of trouble
    Momentary comes to me
    Blinking cards of value
    Thraggy T...

    And in my hour of darkness,
    Flash in Angel, on ETB,
    Exile trigger targets
    Thraggy T..

    Thraggy T, Thraggy T
    Five life and a new 3/3
    One spear doesn't cut it,
    Thraggy T.

    Hahnsoo1SuperRuperGriswold
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Bismuth OS Fully Operational 2019-07-12 - KeystoneRegistered User regular
    I love this game.

    I unjailed a jailed jailer by jailing their jail, which let me jail two jails, unjailing another jailer which jailed an Ajani's pridemate, allowing me to make an unblocked swing.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    new crop of 5-0 standard decks: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-standard-constructed-league-2019-02-11

    I'm still looking through it, but I already like the first list, a sort of pseudo-Jund/Rakdos midrange. Status/Statue is interesting; the first half is stupid if you manage to cast it with Chainwhirler, but it's also good with Skarrgan Hellkite.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    SuperRuper wrote: »
    Griswold wrote: »
    Lucedes wrote: »
    should've carried two spears.

    wait, i found this restoration angel, make that three spears.
    oh no, this unburial rites just fell out of my hand, you'll need about seven spears!
    where did this whip of erebos come from? why is venser suddenly here?

    when i find myself in times of trouble
    Momentary comes to me
    Blinking cards of value
    Thraggy T...

    And in my hour of darkness,
    Flash in Angel, on ETB,
    Exile trigger targets
    Thraggy T..

    Thraggy T, Thraggy T
    Five life and a new 3/3
    One spear doesn't cut it,
    Thraggy T.
    Holy shit, this made me laugh so hard. :D Musical parodies are my particular Kryptonite.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    I love this game.

    I unjailed a jailed jailer by jailing their jail, which let me jail two jails, unjailing another jailer which jailed an Ajani's pridemate, allowing me to make an unblocked swing.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
    21stCenturyIncindium
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Bismuth OS Fully Operational 2019-07-12 - KeystoneRegistered User regular
    No one expects to get their trace buster busted.

    Hahnsoo1
  • KorrorKorror Registered User regular
    Rakdos Firewheeler.

    This doesn't mean that you need to commit to Rakdos but it is definitely the most powerful card in the pack and you should always generally pick the most powerful cards while you're still uncommitted on which guild you're going to end up in. It's certainly possible that you don't end up playing the firewheeler but the times when you do are going to be great.

    Battlenet ID: NullPointer
    Hahnsoo1
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    After spending a couple days being the villain of the format (Nexus, both Simic and Bant; tldr: deck bad) I'm back to Izzet Drakes and maaaaaan that deck is good and fun. Tempo decks have always been my jam and Pterry makes it so consistent. Siding out eight removal spells against control for a bunch of counters and Good Boy Niv Mizzet also feels great.

  • jakobaggerjakobagger LO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTORED Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    After spending a couple days being the villain of the format (Nexus, both Simic and Bant; tldr: deck bad) I'm back to Izzet Drakes and maaaaaan that deck is good and fun. Tempo decks have always been my jam and Pterry makes it so consistent. Siding out eight removal spells against control for a bunch of counters and Good Boy Niv Mizzet also feels great.

    List? I'm looking for more 'real' decks for my constructed instead of just playing the pre-built ones or the extremely janky bad ones I can build myself (I think I am reasonable at limited dec kbuilding, but I am so bad at constructed)

    bgg / steam / goodreads / Bnet: Bygasto#2537
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    I just went three straight games against G/U Merfolk with the exact same opening. T1 Forest > Kumena's Speaker. T2 Island > Merfolk Mistbinder T3 > Land and that Merfolk that creates a 1/1 Hexproof Merfolk Token. I mean, yeah, I get it. It's a popular deck and that's probably the optimal way to churn out the merfolk. But it was really strange to see the same opening moves. I won two of the games, but the third game didn't have many answers.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    jakobagger wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    After spending a couple days being the villain of the format (Nexus, both Simic and Bant; tldr: deck bad) I'm back to Izzet Drakes and maaaaaan that deck is good and fun. Tempo decks have always been my jam and Pterry makes it so consistent. Siding out eight removal spells against control for a bunch of counters and Good Boy Niv Mizzet also feels great.

    List? I'm looking for more 'real' decks for my constructed instead of just playing the pre-built ones or the extremely janky bad ones I can build myself (I think I am reasonable at limited dec kbuilding, but I am so bad at constructed)

    This is my list:
    Creatures
    4 Pteramander
    4 Enigma Drake
    4 Crackling Drake

    Instants & Sorceries
    3 Dive Down
    4 Opt
    4 Shock
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Discovery // Dispersal
    4 Chart a Course
    4 Lava Coil
    1 Beacon Bolt

    Lands
    1 Blood Crypt
    8 Island
    4 Mountain
    4 Steam Vents
    4 Sulfur Falls

    Sideboard
    2 Shivan Fire
    1 Treasure Map
    1 Entrancing Melody
    2 Fiery Cannonade
    2 Disdainful Stroke
    2 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
    2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
    1 Search for Azcanta
    2 Negate

    The only card I would 100% change is Search for Azcanta > Treasure Map in the sideboard. I just haven't been willing to spend the wildcard. I might also swap out the Rals for another Niv and something else, as I never really put them in. General sideboard guide is that the deck is inherently tuned for midrange, swaps removal for counterspells+treasure map+Ral+Niv against control, and swaps card draw and a couple crackling drakes for removal against aggro. More specific sideboarding here -- though based on a different build.

    jakobagger
  • jakobaggerjakobagger LO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTORED Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    After spending a couple days being the villain of the format (Nexus, both Simic and Bant; tldr: deck bad) I'm back to Izzet Drakes and maaaaaan that deck is good and fun. Tempo decks have always been my jam and Pterry makes it so consistent. Siding out eight removal spells against control for a bunch of counters and Good Boy Niv Mizzet also feels great.

    List? I'm looking for more 'real' decks for my constructed instead of just playing the pre-built ones or the extremely janky bad ones I can build myself (I think I am reasonable at limited dec kbuilding, but I am so bad at constructed)

    This is my list:
    Creatures
    4 Pteramander
    4 Enigma Drake
    4 Crackling Drake

    Instants & Sorceries
    3 Dive Down
    4 Opt
    4 Shock
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Discovery // Dispersal
    4 Chart a Course
    4 Lava Coil
    1 Beacon Bolt

    Lands
    1 Blood Crypt
    8 Island
    4 Mountain
    4 Steam Vents
    4 Sulfur Falls

    Sideboard
    2 Shivan Fire
    1 Treasure Map
    1 Entrancing Melody
    2 Fiery Cannonade
    2 Disdainful Stroke
    2 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
    2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
    1 Search for Azcanta
    2 Negate

    The only card I would 100% change is Search for Azcanta > Treasure Map in the sideboard. I just haven't been willing to spend the wildcard. I might also swap out the Rals for another Niv and something else, as I never really put them in. General sideboard guide is that the deck is inherently tuned for midrange, swaps removal for counterspells+treasure map+Ral+Niv against control, and swaps card draw and a couple crackling drakes for removal against aggro. More specific sideboarding here -- though based on a different build.

    Thanks! Looks fun, guess I'll check how much of it I actually have lying around.

    PS. Extremely teenage lazy voice 'but I wanted it in a format where I could auto-export to Arena. . .' :P

    bgg / steam / goodreads / Bnet: Bygasto#2537
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    jakobagger wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    After spending a couple days being the villain of the format (Nexus, both Simic and Bant; tldr: deck bad) I'm back to Izzet Drakes and maaaaaan that deck is good and fun. Tempo decks have always been my jam and Pterry makes it so consistent. Siding out eight removal spells against control for a bunch of counters and Good Boy Niv Mizzet also feels great.

    List? I'm looking for more 'real' decks for my constructed instead of just playing the pre-built ones or the extremely janky bad ones I can build myself (I think I am reasonable at limited dec kbuilding, but I am so bad at constructed)

    This is my list:
    Creatures
    4 Pteramander
    4 Enigma Drake
    4 Crackling Drake

    Instants & Sorceries
    3 Dive Down
    4 Opt
    4 Shock
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Discovery // Dispersal
    4 Chart a Course
    4 Lava Coil
    1 Beacon Bolt

    Lands
    1 Blood Crypt
    8 Island
    4 Mountain
    4 Steam Vents
    4 Sulfur Falls

    Sideboard
    2 Shivan Fire
    1 Treasure Map
    1 Entrancing Melody
    2 Fiery Cannonade
    2 Disdainful Stroke
    2 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
    2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
    1 Search for Azcanta
    2 Negate

    The only card I would 100% change is Search for Azcanta > Treasure Map in the sideboard. I just haven't been willing to spend the wildcard. I might also swap out the Rals for another Niv and something else, as I never really put them in. General sideboard guide is that the deck is inherently tuned for midrange, swaps removal for counterspells+treasure map+Ral+Niv against control, and swaps card draw and a couple crackling drakes for removal against aggro. More specific sideboarding here -- though based on a different build.

    Thanks! Looks fun, guess I'll check how much of it I actually have lying around.

    PS. Extremely teenage lazy voice 'but I wanted it in a format where I could auto-export to Arena. . .' :P

    :lol: that’s fair. If someone gave me a decklist I couldn’t convert to an Arena export I’d probably just ignore them.

    If you go to MTGGoldfish you’ll find Izzet Drakes lists that are within ~5 cards of this, and they’ll have auto-export.

  • jakobaggerjakobagger LO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTORED Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    jakobagger wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    After spending a couple days being the villain of the format (Nexus, both Simic and Bant; tldr: deck bad) I'm back to Izzet Drakes and maaaaaan that deck is good and fun. Tempo decks have always been my jam and Pterry makes it so consistent. Siding out eight removal spells against control for a bunch of counters and Good Boy Niv Mizzet also feels great.

    List? I'm looking for more 'real' decks for my constructed instead of just playing the pre-built ones or the extremely janky bad ones I can build myself (I think I am reasonable at limited dec kbuilding, but I am so bad at constructed)

    This is my list:
    Creatures
    4 Pteramander
    4 Enigma Drake
    4 Crackling Drake

    Instants & Sorceries
    3 Dive Down
    4 Opt
    4 Shock
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Discovery // Dispersal
    4 Chart a Course
    4 Lava Coil
    1 Beacon Bolt

    Lands
    1 Blood Crypt
    8 Island
    4 Mountain
    4 Steam Vents
    4 Sulfur Falls

    Sideboard
    2 Shivan Fire
    1 Treasure Map
    1 Entrancing Melody
    2 Fiery Cannonade
    2 Disdainful Stroke
    2 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
    2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
    1 Search for Azcanta
    2 Negate

    The only card I would 100% change is Search for Azcanta > Treasure Map in the sideboard. I just haven't been willing to spend the wildcard. I might also swap out the Rals for another Niv and something else, as I never really put them in. General sideboard guide is that the deck is inherently tuned for midrange, swaps removal for counterspells+treasure map+Ral+Niv against control, and swaps card draw and a couple crackling drakes for removal against aggro. More specific sideboarding here -- though based on a different build.

    Thanks! Looks fun, guess I'll check how much of it I actually have lying around.

    PS. Extremely teenage lazy voice 'but I wanted it in a format where I could auto-export to Arena. . .' :P

    :lol: that’s fair. If someone gave me a decklist I couldn’t convert to an Arena export I’d probably just ignore them.

    If you go to MTGGoldfish you’ll find Izzet Drakes lists that are within ~5 cards of this, and they’ll have auto-export.

    Nah, joking aside with Arena's current levels of filters it wasn't too onerous to put together even for me, a notorious hater of doing things.

    So I made it and played it. Very succesful game against some kind of Gruul midrange who to be fair was quite mana screwed both rounds.

    bgg / steam / goodreads / Bnet: Bygasto#2537
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    0-3 draft.
    I drafted junk.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Well, they banned Nexus

    [EDIT] For Arena Standard best-of-1 formats

    Rend on
    SkutSkutDanHibikiHahnsoo1ArmorocscherbchenElldrenFartacus_the_Mighty
  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Rend wrote: »
    Well, they banned Nexus

    [EDIT] For Arena Standard best-of-1 formats

    In a move that should surprise no one...

    I'm a little disappointed that the B&R announcement talks about power level of the card and uses Bo3 tournament results when justifying a Bo1 only ban. In Bo1 simic/bant nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r. Even in Bo3 the deck is a T1.5 deck at worst. It just creates this awful rock papers scissors dynamic where decks either can or cannot beat nexus decks. To me, this suggests that they aren't really tracking w/l % of decks on MTGA.

    If they are really going to maintain a separate ban list, there are a lot better reasons to ban nexus in Bo1 than because it is unfun. The unfun argument I think applies more to Bo3. In Bo1 it's just broken. It was representing 20% + of the ladder because it was a damn good deck that got so many free wins it could carry you to mythic even when half your opponents were RDW and mono-U.

    But let's be honest, this was banned because the community hates the card and they hate the card because there are limited ways to interact with their strategy. Even esper control is unfavored against nexus in game 1. If WotC doesn't quite understand why and chalks it off to UI issues or long games that's fine. If the community collectively hates something, understanding why they do is less important than making the problem go away. A win is a win.

    furbat on
    Elldren
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Kwoaru
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    As a point of order @furbat if you have significant additional content to add to a post you should make it in a new post, maybe quote yourself if you feel you need to, instead of editing it in. Otherwise it looks like people responding to you are responding to an increasingly small part of what you said.

    My response above was aimed at your assertion that the deck was too powerful, which was your primary argument as far as I can tell, and now it looks like I was cherry picking, which I was not!

  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    furbat on
    Elldren
  • milskimilski Their Will comes, at last, to Earth, to the Neath, as a storm crosses the sea. Registered User regular
    Nexus was no more broken a deck in Bo1 than mono-red, though it'd be nice if they had actually talked about that rather than Bo3 tournament results in a Bo1 emergency ban announcement.

    High, cold, eternal, immobile, minuscule. You endure; you burn.
  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Nexus was no more broken a deck in Bo1 than mono-red, though it'd be nice if they had actually talked about that rather than Bo3 tournament results in a Bo1 emergency ban announcement.

    I don't disagree with you but I think that nexus was part of the reason why mono-red was broken in Bo1.

  • RendRend Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    Your argument was literally that nexus was too powerful because the nexus deck was favored against a large swathe of deck archetypes, but not favored against a couple other ones. That is not a very good argument, because it sounds to me like the definition of "a pretty good deck" not "a totally overpowered one"

  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    Your argument was literally that nexus was too powerful because the nexus deck was favored against a large swathe of deck archetypes, but not favored against a couple other ones. That is not a very good argument, because it sounds to me like the definition of "a pretty good deck" not "a totally overpowered one"

    You don't think being favored against the majority of decks is a good argument for there being a balance problem? That isn't the full picture though, because the matches were mostly either heavily unfavored or heavily favored which isn't a fun place to be. You don't want the game to feel inevitable after the first land is played. The other part of the argument is that decks that can beat it in Bo3 don't in Bo1 (esper). So you take what is already a T1 or T1.5 deck in Bo3 and it is even better in Bo1.

    furbat on
  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Besides being a bit overpowered, the Client has no way of knowing if a nexus deck is slow playing the way a paper judge does.

    I think that's a huge problem.

    I think it should just be full banned across (standard)paper and arena, but this is a "least they could do" sort of option.

    BSoB on

    ElldrenCauld
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    Your argument was literally that nexus was too powerful because the nexus deck was favored against a large swathe of deck archetypes, but not favored against a couple other ones. That is not a very good argument, because it sounds to me like the definition of "a pretty good deck" not "a totally overpowered one"

    You don't think being favored against the majority of decks is a good argument for there being a balance problem? That isn't the full picture though, because the matches were mostly either heavily unfavored or heavily favored which isn't a fun place to be. You don't want the game to feel inevitable after the first land is played.

    Given the popularity of mono red and mono blue, and given that the matchup as you said was heavily unfavored, no I don't think that's a balance issue.

    We'd have a balance issue if it was heavily favored against all but a couple decks, and against those decks it was only slightly unfavored. Or, if it was heavily favored against all but a couple decks, which it was heavily unfavored against but which were very uncommon.

    Not wanting the game to feel inevitable after the first land is, ironically, more of an "unfun" reason to ban and less of an "overpowered" reason.

  • milskimilski Their Will comes, at last, to Earth, to the Neath, as a storm crosses the sea. Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Nexus was no more broken a deck in Bo1 than mono-red, though it'd be nice if they had actually talked about that rather than Bo3 tournament results in a Bo1 emergency ban announcement.

    I don't disagree with you but I think that nexus was part of the reason why mono-red was broken in Bo1.

    The impact of Nexus on Mono-Red's performance and playrate is vastly overstated. Midrange was played more than Nexus and didn't really seem to tech at all for Nexus besides Mortify. If mono-red is a balance problem, it's one because mono-red is good, not because Nexus caused every bad thing about Magic in the past year

    High, cold, eternal, immobile, minuscule. You endure; you burn.
    RendSniperGuy
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    Your argument was literally that nexus was too powerful because the nexus deck was favored against a large swathe of deck archetypes, but not favored against a couple other ones. That is not a very good argument, because it sounds to me like the definition of "a pretty good deck" not "a totally overpowered one"

    You don't think being favored against the majority of decks is a good argument for there being a balance problem? That isn't the full picture though, because the matches were mostly either heavily unfavored or heavily favored which isn't a fun place to be. You don't want the game to feel inevitable after the first land is played. The other part of the argument is that decks that can beat it in Bo3 don't in Bo1 (esper). So you take what is already a T1 or T1.5 deck in Bo3 and it is even better in Bo1.

    I don't agree with this. I don't think Nexus of fate is a particularly good deck. In best of three, it is easy to sideboard against. In best of one, if you find it to be a common problem, you can maindeck answers against it. It occasionally wins anyway, but so does every deck. I never found it to be a particularly powerful deck compared to some of the others out there right now.

    I don't like that they are maintaining a separate ban list for best of one games. But hey maybe this also
    marginalizes best of one a bit and might allow best of three to thrive more.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    My problem with Nexus is a couple of issues.

    And like, top of the list is how strong it is for being a damn buy a box promo.

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  • milskimilski Their Will comes, at last, to Earth, to the Neath, as a storm crosses the sea. Registered User regular
    Nexus beats Esper in Bo1 because control has to tech against the 50+% of the field that's aggro with creatures, and even then Esper Midrange is actually pretty decent against Nexus since it naturally interacts favorably via Mortify, Deputy of Detention, and kind of Thief of Sanity. It's no different than Aetherflux Storm being good against decks tech'd against BR aggro pre rotation.

    High, cold, eternal, immobile, minuscule. You endure; you burn.
  • furbatfurbat Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    Your argument was literally that nexus was too powerful because the nexus deck was favored against a large swathe of deck archetypes, but not favored against a couple other ones. That is not a very good argument, because it sounds to me like the definition of "a pretty good deck" not "a totally overpowered one"

    You don't think being favored against the majority of decks is a good argument for there being a balance problem? That isn't the full picture though, because the matches were mostly either heavily unfavored or heavily favored which isn't a fun place to be. You don't want the game to feel inevitable after the first land is played.

    Given the popularity of mono red and mono blue, and given that the matchup as you said was heavily unfavored, no I don't think that's a balance issue.

    We'd have a balance issue if it was heavily favored against all but a couple decks, and against those decks it was only slightly unfavored. Or, if it was heavily favored against all but a couple decks, which it was heavily unfavored against but which were very uncommon.

    Not wanting the game to feel inevitable after the first land is, ironically, more of an "unfun" reason to ban and less of an "overpowered" reason.

    You've pretty much hit the nail on the head of why I think people find the card unfun and why it should actually be banned.

    I mean, a card that creates extremely polarizing match ups is both an issue of fun and balance especially when the good match ups far outnumber the bad ones. It's also why RDW is so prevalent, because every other thing but mono-u in the meta is built to beat RDW.

    I suspect that the Bo1 ladder is going to be a lot healthier after the ban, but who knows. If it is, that will have nothing to do with UI issues.

    furbat on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Idk banning nexus seems reasonable. It was pretty universally unfun to play against, what more is there to say?

    SkutSkutElbasunuscherbchenDanHibikiCauldKorror
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Nexus beats Esper in Bo1 because control has to tech against the 50+% of the field that's aggro with creatures, and even then Esper Midrange is actually pretty decent against Nexus since it naturally interacts favorably via Mortify, Deputy of Detention, and kind of Thief of Sanity. It's no different than Aetherflux Storm being good against decks tech'd against BR aggro pre rotation.

    I get that mortify interacts with reclamation but why does Deputy of Detention interact favorably with Nexus?

  • milskimilski Their Will comes, at last, to Earth, to the Neath, as a storm crosses the sea. Registered User regular
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    furbat wrote: »
    In Bo1 simic nexus is favored against everything but mono-u and mono-r.

    So then do you also want to ban mono-u and mono-r? Like, a deck being good against a lot of other decks just means it's a good deck, every deck wants to be good against a lot of other decks. That is, in fact, the bare prerequisite for a deck to be good.

    I'm essentially 100% sure they're tracking win rates on mtga. And in fact, if I learned they were not, it's highly likely I would just not believe whatever source told me that.

    They banned Nexus in bo1 for user experience reasons, and they left it in bo3 for authenticity reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

    Wait, decks want to be good? Gosh, thanks for explaining that to me.

    I think with the nexus ban in Bo1, midrange and aggressive creature strategies will do a better job of punishing those decks so no. I do not think the UI issue is why nexus was unhealthy for the meta and if they are tracking the strength of decks in Bo1 they should use that data when justifying a Bo1 ban not Bo3 tournament results.

    Bo3 tournament results have nothing to do with Bo1 ladder.

    Also, this ban will be good for control on ladder too. Since the decks that prey on nexus are good against control and control loses an unfavored match up. Big winners are going to be esper control and all midrange strategies. Big losers will be RDW.

    Your argument was literally that nexus was too powerful because the nexus deck was favored against a large swathe of deck archetypes, but not favored against a couple other ones. That is not a very good argument, because it sounds to me like the definition of "a pretty good deck" not "a totally overpowered one"

    You don't think being favored against the majority of decks is a good argument for there being a balance problem? That isn't the full picture though, because the matches were mostly either heavily unfavored or heavily favored which isn't a fun place to be. You don't want the game to feel inevitable after the first land is played.

    Given the popularity of mono red and mono blue, and given that the matchup as you said was heavily unfavored, no I don't think that's a balance issue.

    We'd have a balance issue if it was heavily favored against all but a couple decks, and against those decks it was only slightly unfavored. Or, if it was heavily favored against all but a couple decks, which it was heavily unfavored against but which were very uncommon.

    Not wanting the game to feel inevitable after the first land is, ironically, more of an "unfun" reason to ban and less of an "overpowered" reason.

    I mean, a card that creates extremely polarizing match ups is both an issue of fun and balance especially when the good match ups far outnumber the bad ones. It's also why RDW is so prevalent, because every other thing but mono-u in the meta is built to beat RDW.

    The solution here is "don't push Bo1 as a competitive format", then. Unless your solution is multiple bans to prevent all-in aggro and combat decks from ever being good, there's no way to prevent the emergance of strong decks that don't care about their opponent versus decks teched very narrowly against those decks in a format with no sideboarding.

    High, cold, eternal, immobile, minuscule. You endure; you burn.
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