jesus why is that video 18 minutes long. just give me the damn details
Why is it even a video? Just give me a list of settings and what they should be set to?
i was going to post that but didn't want to appear like the oldest man on the forums
it drives me nuts that I need to go to youtube now and scroll through a 10 minute video to answer something that could be written out in 1 sentence
*clicks video for clean uninstalling GPU drivers*
*generic hip hop animated intro*
SUP ITS YA BOY HARDWARE KEVIN COMIN AT YA WITH ANOTHER SEGMENT WE CALL
*drum roll*
HARDWARE IS SO HARD, WHERE?
*breeeeebreebreebreebreebreeeeeeee*
NOW IF YOU LIKED THIS PLEASE LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE AND RING DAT BELL YALL SO YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH THE LATEST HARDWARE NEWS AND DONT FORGET MY PATREON AND ALSO THE MERCH STORE JUST RESTOCKED
Ok yeah, that video is stupidly long but a lot of time is spent showing comparative footage of what visual differences the changes make. I think at the end they summarize what the most effective things to change are. Mainly turn off the clouds or whatever setting effects how detailed the sky and clouds look.
jesus why is that video 18 minutes long. just give me the damn details
Why is it even a video? Just give me a list of settings and what they should be set to?
i was going to post that but didn't want to appear like the oldest man on the forums
it drives me nuts that I need to go to youtube now and scroll through a 10 minute video to answer something that could be written out in 1 sentence
*clicks video for clean uninstalling GPU drivers*
*generic hip hop animated intro*
SUP ITS YA BOY HARDWARE KEVIN COMIN AT YA WITH ANOTHER SEGMENT WE CALL
*drum roll*
HARDWARE IS SO HARD, WHERE?
*breeeeebreebreebreebreebreeeeeeee*
NOW IF YOU LIKED THIS PLEASE LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE AND RING DAT BELL YALL SO YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH THE LATEST HARDWARE NEWS AND DONT FORGET MY PATREON AND ALSO THE MERCH STORE JUST RESTOCKED
When it becomes that obnoxious I just close the tab and watch something else.
AMD really needs to put something competitive out. If the 2080ti was $750 or even $800, I would have jumped on one. But $700 to $1200 (and up given partners "features") is ridiculous even if I can afford it.
Building a new computer and everything seems so expensive and would like to drop the price. Any advice would be appreciated, here is my first go at a build:
What are the primary functions of your PC? If I had to take a stab at dropping your price:
CPU is probably overkill for most tasks unless you're doing stuff that requires heavy CPU usage
You can get by with stock cooler unless you're planning to majorly overclock
I don't know anything about Intel boards, but you can probably drop down a notch in functionality on your board and get one around $120, especially if you don't need all the extra PCI slots or overclock functions in the higher end boards
16 GB of RAM is likely plenty unless you're doing stuff that requires oodles of memory (editing large video or image files, or rendering stuff perhaps)
You probably don't need an NVMe drive and can get by with a m.2 or without it just fine and use a regular SSD
If you're going to keep a platter drive around because you need to store lots of stuff, I'd go at least 2 TB, preferably 4, otherwise just get another SSD or two
A 2070 is overkill unless you have a 1440p monitor or higher or you want to run 1080p at ridiculous refresh rates.
You can get by with Windows 10 Home unless you need some of the enterprise stuff packaged into the Pro edition.
The rest of your list is all basically personal preference. Just going off gut feel and not consulting any lists, you can probably knock off $200 from your CPU, $50 from your mobo, $40 from your cooler, call it a wash on your storage solution, $200 on getting a cheaper video card, $20 on downgrading Windows.
That CPU cooler is borderline not going to cut it. Get something like a Coolermaster Hyper 212 Evo for around the same price or step up to something from Noctua. Dropping down to 16GB of ram is a good idea, and you could also consider switching to Ryzen 2600x or 2700x. Getting a SATA or M.2 SATA SSD instead of a NVMe is also a place to save money and not lose noticeable performance.
What resolution are you gaming at? If you're only at 1080p you could also switch to a 2060 and save a lot of money that way.
I'd also consider spending more money on a nicer case. Budgeting closer to $100 opens up numerous more options for better looks, cooling, or build quality.
I'm 90% certain the k-series CPUs don't come with a stock cooler; so a non-k solution may be worthwhile.
Also you can 100% get better storage prices if you're willing to deal hunt (check back a page or two where I listed some sources online).
Is there any reason you can't reuse the PSU? If you don't want to, you can also deal hunt for PSUs.
Also worth mentioning, I don't know the details, but you should be able to use your Win7 key and set up a Microsoft login so that you won't have to pay for Win10.
Thanks for the feedback m!ttens, Cormac, and Muglsy!
CPU: Yeah the k-series don't have a stock cooler. I want to stick with Intel and a fairly beefy cpu. Single and Quad core speeds are most relevant to what I would use the computer for. Gaming and some light photo editing. In fact, watching Total Warhammer 2 let's plays is what made me move on getting a new computer rather than waiting for my current computer's hard drive or mobo to die. My current computer is old and on its last legs. I will look into the non-k i7-8700, it uses less energy, is cheaper, and seems to be fairly close to k version in performance.
CPU Cooler: What about the current cooler suggests that it won't cut it? I don't know much about cooling, except that I don't want to use a liquid cooler. I checked the TDP rating of the cooler compared to the CPU, so please let me know what else I might need to look for.
Mobo: I am not planning to overclock. I tried to find the cheapest mobo with the least bells and whistles, but stuck with ASUS. I have used ASUS boards in all my previous builds and they seem to be reliable, but perhaps I should consider other manufacturers. Any advice on branching out?
RAM:Alright will look into 16gb.
Storage: I thought NVMe was supposed to have large performance gains over SATA? I need more than 500 gb of storage, but over 1.5 - 2 tb seems like overkill. Also, I will check out the deal hunt resources, thanks for that.
GPU: I am not planning to use 1440p resolution, in fact I am not sure if my monitors even do 1080p. I will look into the 2060.
Operating System: Huh, after some brief research it seems that I might be able to upgrade to Win10 for free still. I will have to look into that. In the past, for XP And 7 the pro version was the version to get. At least for xp I remember really needing the increase domain support in the pro version even at home. Is this no longer the case for win10? Is the home version sufficient for advanced use cases?
If you want something a bit more "barebones" (lacking another term), check the H370 chipset boards. They're in the same class as the Z390 with slightly fewer features that you likely won't notice (20 vs. 24 PCIe lanes, for example). Also, the H-class BIOS likely won't have overclocking features but you're not planning on using those features anyway.
For the CPU cooler the 8700k runs really hot. That cooler you listed is marginally better than what a stock Intel cooler would be, and is also designed for small form factor cases. It's not going to perform or be as quiet as any tower cooler with a full size 120mm fan.
As others have said, there is also little point in getting a K series CPU if you aren't going to overclock.
NVMe drives are much faster than SSD's in specific use cases. For gaming and photo editing the speed is not going to be noticeable. Nothing they do can make use of the bandwidth NVMe drives are capable of. If you were regularly processing 4K video files or moving GB's of data around all the time then go for one, but otherwise a normal SSD or the smaller M.2 SSD's are still incredibly fast.
I'd also lean toward a 1TB SSD drive because of how massive game installs are now and will only continue to get larger due to 4K assets. With how cheap mechanical hard drives are a 1TB is around $50 but you can get a 4TB for around $100. You can never have enough storage.
You can get DP adapters; which is what I'm assuming the ports are on the cards.
Yeah, the card have Display Port 1.4's. Will an adapter reduce quality? Should I just upgrade the monitors as well? I can't seem to find any good information on this.
NebulousQ on
0
OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
You can get DP adapters; which is what I'm assuming the ports are on the cards.
Yeah, the card are have Display Port 1.4's. Will an adapter reduce quality? Should I just upgrade the monitors as well? I can't seem to find any good information on this.
It's a digital interface. Unless there are signal integrity issues (unlikely), there will be no change in image quality. VGA is another story, of course.
DVI is just HDMI with a different plug down at it's basic level. Though if you're not even using a 1080p monitor I don't see why you wouldn't upgrade if it's in your budget.
They should work fine. I've used HDMI->DVI adapters before--they used to be included with video cards. And there are DisplayPort->HDMI adapters. I don't see why you would need to buy a new monitor until you're ready.
0
OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Having looked at it, the only possible reason you might need an active adapter is because you're trying to push a shitload of pixels down it--like 4K+resolutions. If you're running DVI you're almost certainly not doing that.
So just buy some cheap-ass passives and go about your business.
Thanks Orca, I'll plan on passive adapters for now. I'll perhaps upgrade my monitors at a later date when I have forgotten how much I spent on the computer.
I'll go against the grain here and recommend you at least move to a 1080p monitor.
This is a thing you will stare at everyday and is the primary interface by which you'll consume your content.
Like an SSD a 1080p capable monitor should be required. They are plentiful and relatively cheap.
You can adjust several components in your build to make room for a couple hundred bucks for a decent monitor.
Here's a list that is just as capable as the one you selected but with a good 24" 1080p 144hz monitor. With any new video card you can even use your old monitors with the new one for a multi monitor setup.
nVidia are almost weeping in public over their Q4 and are explaining that people are waiting for lower prices and games that show off ray tracing.
Well yes? Even I could have told you that?
980 Ti Launch: $ 649 (€ 700 in Europe)
1080 Ti Launch: $ 699 (€ ~750 in Europe)
2080 Ti Launch: $ 1199 (€ 1400 in Europe)
Like, it's a problem. And the economic trajectory isn't going to get more conducive to big indulgent hobby purchasing.
*Quickly googles*
"Revenue projections cut by $500 million"
"CEO warns of 'extraordinary... disappointing' Q4"
"Crypto mining was as weak as suspected"
"Nvidia -15%... on Q4"
YESSSS, FEED ME YOUR TEARS YOU GREEDY FUCKS.
When I bought my Gigabyte Windforce GTX680 OC in 2012, it was AUD$650.
An equivalent RTX 2080 is $1100.
Nvidia can eat my whole arse.
Donovan Puppyfucker on
0
HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Don't get a Z370 motherboard if you aren't overclocking. Save a few bucks, get a H370 motherboard instead. I have a "Asus ROG STRIX H370-I Gaming" (I hate motherboard names) paired with a i5-8600 and it's fantastic. It's also mini-ITX so there werne't a ton of options, full size ATX ore mATX have a TON of H370 options.
save your money.
+1
HeatwaveCome, now, and walk the path of explosions with me!Registered Userregular
Wow.
I can get 2x8gb 3200mhz ddr4 ram for as low as 168AUD on Newegg.
That's pretty damn tempting, especially considering it's the same series ram as my current ddr3 ram that's been working for me for years (G.Skill Ripjaws).
I think I'll probably hold out for cheaper CORSAIR Vengeance LPX .
By the time I buy the Ryzen 3600/3700X and motherboard ram might be even cheaper.
*knocks hard on wood and prays for it not to skyrocket again*
just a quick story because i love following this thread but don't ever really participate.
I'm building a new computer and having a ton of issues. First mobo i get was bad. Then the Power Supply had problems. Finally got everything assembled (470x gaming plus msi board), an older rx470 card, ddr4 3000 ram x16, ryzen 5 2600). Powering it up and i'm getting no display. Take out all the ram but one stick, remove the new ssd i got, still can't get it to show the post screen. googling everything i can think of on what i see on the board and possible errors. Finally, after about an hour of trying various things including resetting the cmos, etc. i realize that my "monitor" is on hdmi 2 instead of hdmi 1 and it was probably working the first time i turned it on.
I cried a little but did end up laughing and have a nice story to share.
Can someone explain the use cases for the Ryzen and the i5/i7? I keep seeing stuff saying that the Ryzen is better for general purpose computing, and the Intels, particularly the i7, is better for gaming.
Short version: Intel still has better single-core performance while the Ryzen is better at anything related to multicore.
Single core performance is the only reason people say Intel edges out AMD. It's much closer, however, than many are willing to admit; and I'd argue that if you do a good job of selecting quality RAM, you'd be hard pressed to notice a difference.
It's also quickly turning political because some people feel that Intel have been driving up prices and they also want to root for the 'scrappy underdog.'
I think it's been fixed recently, but my biggest concern with the Ryzens when they first hit the market was that they were very picky about which RAM they would work well with; and even if you followed the Qualified Vendor List, you weren't guaranteed everything would work out. I don't think this is the case for the newest-gen of Ryzen, though.
Posts
Just what are you trying to suggest I do, man?! I... would have to read the youtube comments.
Giving advice like that should be a criminal offence.
Well yes? Even I could have told you that?
980 Ti Launch: $ 649 (€ 700 in Europe)
1080 Ti Launch: $ 699 (€ ~750 in Europe)
2080 Ti Launch: $ 1199 (€ 1400 in Europe)
Like, it's a problem. And the economic trajectory isn't going to get more conducive to big indulgent hobby purchasing.
i was going to post that but didn't want to appear like the oldest man on the forums
it drives me nuts that I need to go to youtube now and scroll through a 10 minute video to answer something that could be written out in 1 sentence
Fellow old grumps unite!
I don't want to like and subscribe so you can tell me what settings to use 10 minutes into a video with no timestamps.
Just link me to the forum post from the guy who figured it out.
*clicks video for clean uninstalling GPU drivers*
*generic hip hop animated intro*
SUP ITS YA BOY HARDWARE KEVIN COMIN AT YA WITH ANOTHER SEGMENT WE CALL
*drum roll*
HARDWARE IS SO HARD, WHERE?
*breeeeebreebreebreebreebreeeeeeee*
NOW IF YOU LIKED THIS PLEASE LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE AND RING DAT BELL YALL SO YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH THE LATEST HARDWARE NEWS AND DONT FORGET MY PATREON AND ALSO THE MERCH STORE JUST RESTOCKED
Ended up having to reduce some settings even more though.
When it becomes that obnoxious I just close the tab and watch something else.
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
*Quickly googles*
"Revenue projections cut by $500 million"
"CEO warns of 'extraordinary... disappointing' Q4"
"Crypto mining was as weak as suspected"
"Nvidia -15%... on Q4"
YESSSS, FEED ME YOUR TEARS YOU GREEDY FUCKS.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy
PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/fVbKD2
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/fVbKD2/by_merchant/
CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7 GHz 6-Core Processor ($369.99 @ B&H)
CPU Cooler: Gelid Solutions - Slimhero 52.4 CFM Fluid Dynamic Bearing CPU Cooler ($37.89 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Asus - PRIME Z390-A ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($183.00 @ B&H)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-2666 Memory ($214.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital - Black NVMe 500 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($122.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($44.89 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce RTX 2070 8 GB Video Card ($504.99 @ B&H)
Case: Corsair - 200R ATX Mid Tower Case ($59.99 @ Walmart)
Power Supply: Corsair - RMx 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit ($124.89 @ My Choice Software)
Mouse: Logitech - M570 Wireless Trackball ($27.99 @ B&H)
Headphones: Sony - MDR-V6 Headphones ($98.00 @ Adorama)
Total: $1879.60
I will be re-using my keyboard, monitors, and optical drive from my old computer. My current mouse and headphones are falling apart.
I think 32gb of RAM might be over kill and will probably drop it to 16gb.
I am also thinking about doing a micro or mini ATX, but have never built a computer at those form factors.
I would like to stick to Windows 7, but it seems getting the latest cpu's and mbo's to work with Windows 7 is alot of work.
Lastly, if I wanted to downgrade the video card which video card would be the best value, i.e. most savings for least performance drop?
The rest of your list is all basically personal preference. Just going off gut feel and not consulting any lists, you can probably knock off $200 from your CPU, $50 from your mobo, $40 from your cooler, call it a wash on your storage solution, $200 on getting a cheaper video card, $20 on downgrading Windows.
That's an easy $500 off right there.
What resolution are you gaming at? If you're only at 1080p you could also switch to a 2060 and save a lot of money that way.
I'd also consider spending more money on a nicer case. Budgeting closer to $100 opens up numerous more options for better looks, cooling, or build quality.
Also you can 100% get better storage prices if you're willing to deal hunt (check back a page or two where I listed some sources online).
Is there any reason you can't reuse the PSU? If you don't want to, you can also deal hunt for PSUs.
Also worth mentioning, I don't know the details, but you should be able to use your Win7 key and set up a Microsoft login so that you won't have to pay for Win10.
CPU: Yeah the k-series don't have a stock cooler. I want to stick with Intel and a fairly beefy cpu. Single and Quad core speeds are most relevant to what I would use the computer for. Gaming and some light photo editing. In fact, watching Total Warhammer 2 let's plays is what made me move on getting a new computer rather than waiting for my current computer's hard drive or mobo to die. My current computer is old and on its last legs. I will look into the non-k i7-8700, it uses less energy, is cheaper, and seems to be fairly close to k version in performance.
CPU Cooler: What about the current cooler suggests that it won't cut it? I don't know much about cooling, except that I don't want to use a liquid cooler. I checked the TDP rating of the cooler compared to the CPU, so please let me know what else I might need to look for.
Mobo: I am not planning to overclock. I tried to find the cheapest mobo with the least bells and whistles, but stuck with ASUS. I have used ASUS boards in all my previous builds and they seem to be reliable, but perhaps I should consider other manufacturers. Any advice on branching out?
RAM:Alright will look into 16gb.
Storage: I thought NVMe was supposed to have large performance gains over SATA? I need more than 500 gb of storage, but over 1.5 - 2 tb seems like overkill. Also, I will check out the deal hunt resources, thanks for that.
GPU: I am not planning to use 1440p resolution, in fact I am not sure if my monitors even do 1080p. I will look into the 2060.
Operating System: Huh, after some brief research it seems that I might be able to upgrade to Win10 for free still. I will have to look into that. In the past, for XP And 7 the pro version was the version to get. At least for xp I remember really needing the increase domain support in the pro version even at home. Is this no longer the case for win10? Is the home version sufficient for advanced use cases?
As others have said, there is also little point in getting a K series CPU if you aren't going to overclock.
NVMe drives are much faster than SSD's in specific use cases. For gaming and photo editing the speed is not going to be noticeable. Nothing they do can make use of the bandwidth NVMe drives are capable of. If you were regularly processing 4K video files or moving GB's of data around all the time then go for one, but otherwise a normal SSD or the smaller M.2 SSD's are still incredibly fast.
I'd also lean toward a 1TB SSD drive because of how massive game installs are now and will only continue to get larger due to 4K assets. With how cheap mechanical hard drives are a 1TB is around $50 but you can get a 4TB for around $100. You can never have enough storage.
THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231888
Or can I just do a converter?
Yeah, the card have Display Port 1.4's. Will an adapter reduce quality? Should I just upgrade the monitors as well? I can't seem to find any good information on this.
It's a digital interface. Unless there are signal integrity issues (unlikely), there will be no change in image quality. VGA is another story, of course.
Looks like I'm going to need to buy new monitors.
They should work fine. I've used HDMI->DVI adapters before--they used to be included with video cards. And there are DisplayPort->HDMI adapters. I don't see why you would need to buy a new monitor until you're ready.
Having looked at it, the only possible reason you might need an active adapter is because you're trying to push a shitload of pixels down it--like 4K+resolutions. If you're running DVI you're almost certainly not doing that.
So just buy some cheap-ass passives and go about your business.
This is a thing you will stare at everyday and is the primary interface by which you'll consume your content.
Like an SSD a 1080p capable monitor should be required. They are plentiful and relatively cheap.
You can adjust several components in your build to make room for a couple hundred bucks for a decent monitor.
@NebulousQ
Here's a list that is just as capable as the one you selected but with a good 24" 1080p 144hz monitor. With any new video card you can even use your old monitors with the new one for a multi monitor setup.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant
CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700 3.2 GHz 6-Core Processor ($304.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master - Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($27.89 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: MSI - Z370-A PRO ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($109.89 @ OutletPC)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory ($122.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital - Black NVMe 500 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($118.89 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($44.89 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA - GeForce RTX 2060 6 GB XC ULTRA GAMING Video Card ($369.00 @ Amazon)
Case: Phanteks - Eclipse P300 Tempered Glass (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($55.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Corsair - RMx 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($89.89 @ OutletPC)
Monitor: MSI - Optix MAG24C 23.6" 1920x1080 144 Hz Monitor ($247.68 @ OutletPC)
Mouse: Logitech - M570 Wireless Trackball ($27.90 @ Amazon)
Headphones: Sony - MDR-V6 Headphones ($98.00 @ Adorama)
Total: $1617.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-01-29 20:06 EST-0500
Get the 16 gb of RAM
Step 2
Tax return! 2060 time!
Step 3
1440p 60hz monitor to go with my 1440p 60hz video card. Use my 1080p as a portrait-mode 2nd monitor.
When I bought my Gigabyte Windforce GTX680 OC in 2012, it was AUD$650.
An equivalent RTX 2080 is $1100.
Nvidia can eat my whole arse.
save your money.
I can get 2x8gb 3200mhz ddr4 ram for as low as 168AUD on Newegg.
That's pretty damn tempting, especially considering it's the same series ram as my current ddr3 ram that's been working for me for years (G.Skill Ripjaws).
I think I'll probably hold out for cheaper CORSAIR Vengeance LPX .
By the time I buy the Ryzen 3600/3700X and motherboard ram might be even cheaper.
*knocks hard on wood and prays for it not to skyrocket again*
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
I'm building a new computer and having a ton of issues. First mobo i get was bad. Then the Power Supply had problems. Finally got everything assembled (470x gaming plus msi board), an older rx470 card, ddr4 3000 ram x16, ryzen 5 2600). Powering it up and i'm getting no display. Take out all the ram but one stick, remove the new ssd i got, still can't get it to show the post screen. googling everything i can think of on what i see on the board and possible errors. Finally, after about an hour of trying various things including resetting the cmos, etc. i realize that my "monitor" is on hdmi 2 instead of hdmi 1 and it was probably working the first time i turned it on.
I cried a little but did end up laughing and have a nice story to share.
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Why monitors don't auto switch to the next (or only) active connection is the question.
Single core performance is the only reason people say Intel edges out AMD. It's much closer, however, than many are willing to admit; and I'd argue that if you do a good job of selecting quality RAM, you'd be hard pressed to notice a difference.
It's also quickly turning political because some people feel that Intel have been driving up prices and they also want to root for the 'scrappy underdog.'
I think it's been fixed recently, but my biggest concern with the Ryzens when they first hit the market was that they were very picky about which RAM they would work well with; and even if you followed the Qualified Vendor List, you weren't guaranteed everything would work out. I don't think this is the case for the newest-gen of Ryzen, though.