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[Canadian Politics] Takin' out the trash to replace it with... whoops.

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Posts

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    So backtracking a few weeks to the new drunk-driving laws that said that you can be tested and have to be sober for 2 hours after driving. My local paper checked up on that, and it's nowhere near as scary as it sounds (link in French).

    The spirit of the law is to tackle the problem of people who drink right before driving, so they are impaired but the alcohol hasn't entered their bloodstream sufficiently at the moment of testing to pass the 0.08 limit (but it does shortly after), as well as the apparently common legal defense of "I drank a lot after the accident because it stressed me out, that's why I was over 0.08 by the time the cops arrived.".

    The law itself explicitly states that it doesn't apply to someone who "has no reason to assume they will be tested within the two hours they finished driving." In other words, if you drive home from work with no incidents and you do not expect the cops to show up, nothing stops you from having a few beers. But if you have an accident on the road, you have a reasonable reason to expect to get tested and the two-hour limit applies.

    sig.gif
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    I feel like every member of the Liberal party should just have a big sign on their fridge or something that says, "Remember how Harper got in".

    This is an apologist take, but can you imagine any other party doing much different? Failing to protect SNC would've endangered the vote in the battleground ridings of Quebec.

    It's clear that she's dragging out the issue by refusing to comment, something that she has all right to do. Still, I don't know how Canada should deal with its too big to fail domestics Bombardier & SNC. They've been caught up in a lot of scandals/inefficiency in the past several years, but with their being the only game in town most governments don't seem to have much choice other than to support them.

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  • Descendant XDescendant X Hank Facepunch Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    So backtracking a few weeks to the new drunk-driving laws that said that you can be tested and have to be sober for 2 hours after driving. My local paper checked up on that, and it's nowhere near as scary as it sounds (link in French).

    The spirit of the law is to tackle the problem of people who drink right before driving, so they are impaired but the alcohol hasn't entered their bloodstream sufficiently at the moment of testing to pass the 0.08 limit (but it does shortly after), as well as the apparently common legal defense of "I drank a lot after the accident because it stressed me out, that's why I was over 0.08 by the time the cops arrived.".

    The law itself explicitly states that it doesn't apply to someone who "has no reason to assume they will be tested within the two hours they finished driving." In other words, if you drive home from work with no incidents and you do not expect the cops to show up, nothing stops you from having a few beers. But if you have an accident on the road, you have a reasonable reason to expect to get tested and the two-hour limit applies.

    This isn’t too surprising. The two hour thing was obviously an overreach if the fuzz would be able to kick in the door two hours after you’ve had a drink. They law may be tougher, but there still has to be some compelling reason for the cops to knock on the door asking for a breathalyzer.

    Something used to be here. It's gone now.
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigrants and pipelines in Canada, data show. A CBC News study of 9M tweets found that Russian, Iranian, and Venesuelian trolls sowed discord by retweeting Canadian inflamatory accounts, such as @TheRebelTV, @ezralevant, and @CBCNews.

    I wonder if they'll take time to reflect on their results...

    Richy on
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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    And she has resigned from cabinet...



    EDIT: More importantly, she has retained counsel. This story ain't going away.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Really did not take long for Liberals to fall back into old patterns, eh?

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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigrants and pipelines in Canada, data show. A CBC News study of 9M tweets found that Russian, Iranian, and Venesuelian trolls sowed discord by retweeting Canadian inflamatory accounts, such as @TheRebelTV, @ezralevant, and @CBCNews.

    I wonder if they'll take time to reflect on their results...

    While I have absolutely no idea what action could actually be taken, it's been clear for a while now that Russia is long overdue in facing some kind of consequences for its blatant meddling in the affairs of other countries. Again, I have no idea what those consequences would be, but it has to stop being, "Basically nothing".

  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigrants and pipelines in Canada, data show. A CBC News study of 9M tweets found that Russian, Iranian, and Venesuelian trolls sowed discord by retweeting Canadian inflamatory accounts, such as @TheRebelTV, @ezralevant, and @CBCNews.

    I wonder if they'll take time to reflect on their results...

    While I have absolutely no idea what action could actually be taken, it's been clear for a while now that Russia is long overdue in facing some kind of consequences for its blatant meddling in the affairs of other countries. Again, I have no idea what those consequences would be, but it has to stop being, "Basically nothing".

    While I agree, something also rubs me wrong about the idea that "this more urgently needs to stop because it's meddling with other first world countries." Enough of the first world has its longstanding histories with meddling in foreign politics and governments, but it's not like we've ever really been held accountable for those actions either. :/

  • AridholAridhol Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Yes.

    That was my point.
    However, there is no definitive link between the amount of THC in a person’s system and impairment. THC is stored in a person’s fat cells and can remain detectable in a person’s body for up to a month. For medical patients or regular users, this means they may often not be legally allowed to drive.

    Should have included that bit in the snippet then :)
    Richy wrote: »
    So backtracking a few weeks to the new drunk-driving laws that said that you can be tested and have to be sober for 2 hours after driving. My local paper checked up on that, and it's nowhere near as scary as it sounds (link in French).

    The spirit of the law is to tackle the problem of people who drink right before driving, so they are impaired but the alcohol hasn't entered their bloodstream sufficiently at the moment of testing to pass the 0.08 limit (but it does shortly after), as well as the apparently common legal defense of "I drank a lot after the accident because it stressed me out, that's why I was over 0.08 by the time the cops arrived.".

    The law itself explicitly states that it doesn't apply to someone who "has no reason to assume they will be tested within the two hours they finished driving." In other words, if you drive home from work with no incidents and you do not expect the cops to show up, nothing stops you from having a few beers. But if you have an accident on the road, you have a reasonable reason to expect to get tested and the two-hour limit applies.

    This is still unreasonable.

    If I commit an infraction coming home and a helpful neighbour calls it in and I get a visit from the police I have no way to prove I wasn't drinking while driving. I could still be compelled to take a breathalyzer and I would fail despite the fact that I didn't have any alcohol until I got home.


    The law itself explicitly states that it doesn't apply to someone who "has no reason to assume they will be tested within the two hours they finished driving." In other words, if you drive home from work with no incidents and you do not expect the cops to show up, nothing stops you from having a few beers.

    That explanation is "what do you have to fear if you haven't done anything wrong" all over it and it's a bullshit justification here the same as it is for every other overreach.


    Also, yes, I have had an officer come by and ask me about driving (someone had mistaken my vehicle for another) saying I had gone through a crosswalk and almost hit someone.


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  • JeanJean Papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Really did not take long for Liberals to fall back into old patterns, eh?

    Yup! Feels like the sponsorship scandal all over again. Hasn't a decade in opposition taught them anything?

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Jean wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Really did not take long for Liberals to fall back into old patterns, eh?

    Yup! Feels like the sponsorship scandal all over again. Hasn't a decade in opposition taught them anything?

    Actually, a decade watching the Harper government rack up scandal after scandal while the same people who yelled about the sponsorship scandal shrugged and fell silent taught me a lot.

    sig.gif
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  • SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigrants and pipelines in Canada, data show. A CBC News study of 9M tweets found that Russian, Iranian, and Venesuelian trolls sowed discord by retweeting Canadian inflamatory accounts, such as @TheRebelTV, @ezralevant, and @CBCNews.

    I wonder if they'll take time to reflect on their results...

    While I have absolutely no idea what action could actually be taken, it's been clear for a while now that Russia is long overdue in facing some kind of consequences for its blatant meddling in the affairs of other countries. Again, I have no idea what those consequences would be, but it has to stop being, "Basically nothing".

    While I agree, something also rubs me wrong about the idea that "this more urgently needs to stop because it's meddling with other first world countries." Enough of the first world has its longstanding histories with meddling in foreign politics and governments, but it's not like we've ever really been held accountable for those actions either. :/

    It'd be really difficult to find a way to punish Russia and friends for trolling, especially when plenty of said trolling is done by non-state actors. Much easier to target specific people sent by the Russian government to directly influence politicians, which the USA at least is doing. And it's not like we don't have our own right-wing trolls who enjoy stirring up shit about, say, Israeli or Venezuelan elections. How would Canada's government react if a foreign government wanted to take it to task for the online activities of EzraLevantFan061 and his troll bot army on Twitter?

    It's also really difficult to find a way to stop bad actors from screwing with our electoral politics via social media, but it's going to be more effective to take steps in that direction. We've created an internet monster and now we gotta figure out how to slay it.

    Extra extra note: I find it interesting that the United States isn't brought up in that CBC article about troll accounts targeting the Canadian electorate. There are absolutely US actors involved in the anti-Trudeau troll campaign, although they're probably not linked to the US government. Does that make them better somehow than accounts that are possibly linked to the Russian/Iranian/Venezuelan governments, when the results are the same?

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Thought this was a pretty good article about how the SNC Lavalin thing could have come about.

  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Trudeau - "I think it shows that we're good based on her (Raybould) still being in Cabinet"

    Raybould - *leaves cabinet*

    ...Might've been a bad idea for Trudeau to say that...

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  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigrants and pipelines in Canada, data show. A CBC News study of 9M tweets found that Russian, Iranian, and Venesuelian trolls sowed discord by retweeting Canadian inflamatory accounts, such as @TheRebelTV, @ezralevant, and @CBCNews.

    I wonder if they'll take time to reflect on their results...

    While I have absolutely no idea what action could actually be taken, it's been clear for a while now that Russia is long overdue in facing some kind of consequences for its blatant meddling in the affairs of other countries. Again, I have no idea what those consequences would be, but it has to stop being, "Basically nothing".

    To be fair, the consequences for the US blatantly meddling in the affairs of multiple other countries has also been “basically nothing”, so it’s not like there isn’t precedent.

    jnij103vqi2i.png
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Twitter trolls stoked debates about immigrants and pipelines in Canada, data show. A CBC News study of 9M tweets found that Russian, Iranian, and Venesuelian trolls sowed discord by retweeting Canadian inflamatory accounts, such as @TheRebelTV, @ezralevant, and @CBCNews.

    I wonder if they'll take time to reflect on their results...

    While I have absolutely no idea what action could actually be taken, it's been clear for a while now that Russia is long overdue in facing some kind of consequences for its blatant meddling in the affairs of other countries. Again, I have no idea what those consequences would be, but it has to stop being, "Basically nothing".

    While I agree, something also rubs me wrong about the idea that "this more urgently needs to stop because it's meddling with other first world countries." Enough of the first world has its longstanding histories with meddling in foreign politics and governments, but it's not like we've ever really been held accountable for those actions either. :/

    It'd be really difficult to find a way to punish Russia and friends for trolling, especially when plenty of said trolling is done by non-state actors. Much easier to target specific people sent by the Russian government to directly influence politicians, which the USA at least is doing. And it's not like we don't have our own right-wing trolls who enjoy stirring up shit about, say, Israeli or Venezuelan elections. How would Canada's government react if a foreign government wanted to take it to task for the online activities of EzraLevantFan061 and his troll bot army on Twitter?

    It's also really difficult to find a way to stop bad actors from screwing with our electoral politics via social media, but it's going to be more effective to take steps in that direction. We've created an internet monster and now we gotta figure out how to slay it.

    Extra extra note: I find it interesting that the United States isn't brought up in that CBC article about troll accounts targeting the Canadian electorate. There are absolutely US actors involved in the anti-Trudeau troll campaign, although they're probably not linked to the US government. Does that make them better somehow than accounts that are possibly linked to the Russian/Iranian/Venezuelan governments, when the results are the same?

    I think this one boils down to the idea that we know there are a lot of individual people with less than stellar believes, morals, methodologies, etc. However we (should ...) expect governments to act with a higher degree of respect, understanding and tact. I don't know the exact circumstances of Jimmy Hillford from Alabama, but a group of government officials condoning or requesting the same sort of behavior?
    Something something great power great responsibility.

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  • JeanJean Papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Jean wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Really did not take long for Liberals to fall back into old patterns, eh?

    Yup! Feels like the sponsorship scandal all over again. Hasn't a decade in opposition taught them anything?

    Actually, a decade watching the Harper government rack up scandal after scandal while the same people who yelled about the sponsorship scandal shrugged and fell silent taught me a lot.


    The conservatives being corrupt doesn't excuse liberal corruption.

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Jean wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Jean wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Really did not take long for Liberals to fall back into old patterns, eh?

    Yup! Feels like the sponsorship scandal all over again. Hasn't a decade in opposition taught them anything?

    Actually, a decade watching the Harper government rack up scandal after scandal while the same people who yelled about the sponsorship scandal shrugged and fell silent taught me a lot.


    The conservatives being corrupt doesn't excuse liberal corruption.

    That's what he's getting at, though you have it backwards - The conservative base calling for heads during the Liberal scandal, but whistling and looking away during any CPC scandals. It's not about excusing one party's corruption, it's about holding the other one equally accountable. :/

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    It's also about not electing a more corrupt party in response.

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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    It's also frustrating how quick so much of the country is to go, "Well, the Liberals did something a bit corrupt. We'd better kick them out and elect a party who are way more corrupt and worse on basically every issue".

    Even in the coverage, it actually took me a lot of digging to find out what the actual scandal was, because most of the coverage is just pundits going on and on about how much of a disaster this is for Trudeau and the Liberals. Pundits who were pretty damn quiet when Harper was doing far worse.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go sit in the corner all bummed out, telling myself that the NDP are totally going to for realsies have a shot at winning someday.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Thought this was a pretty good article about how the SNC Lavalin thing could have come about.

    It's a gooseshit argument. The reason anti-foreign corruption laws exist is because it's too easy for businesses to just say "that's the way of the world" and enable corruption abroad, which undermines the rule of law. And allowing companies to wiggle out of these laws just exacerbates the situation.

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  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    It's also frustrating how quick so much of the country is to go, "Well, the Liberals did something a bit corrupt. We'd better kick them out and elect a party who are way more corrupt and worse on basically every issue".

    Even in the coverage, it actually took me a lot of digging to find out what the actual scandal was, because most of the coverage is just pundits going on and on about how much of a disaster this is for Trudeau and the Liberals. Pundits who were pretty damn quiet when Harper was doing far worse.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go sit in the corner all bummed out, telling myself that the NDP are totally going to for realsies have a shot at winning someday.

    Yeah I'm still not sure what SNC-Lavalin actually did, aside from some muttering about bribes in Libya?

  • El SkidEl Skid The frozen white northRegistered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »
    It's also frustrating how quick so much of the country is to go, "Well, the Liberals did something a bit corrupt. We'd better kick them out and elect a party who are way more corrupt and worse on basically every issue".

    Even in the coverage, it actually took me a lot of digging to find out what the actual scandal was, because most of the coverage is just pundits going on and on about how much of a disaster this is for Trudeau and the Liberals. Pundits who were pretty damn quiet when Harper was doing far worse.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go sit in the corner all bummed out, telling myself that the NDP are totally going to for realsies have a shot at winning someday.

    Yeah I'm still not sure what SNC-Lavalin actually did, aside from some muttering about bribes in Libya?

    Again from listening to CBC radio:

    SNC has been involved in bribery/corruption all over Africa. Has already pled guilty to a bunch of it.

    Canada has some laws about this type of thing, but until recently didn't have an "escape clause" for the company to allow the deferment of prosecution to avoid the entire company just collapsing if it's a big enough player in the economy.

    Canada corrected that a short while ago I guess, though a court ruled that SNC doesn't actually qualify under that law to have deferred prosecution, so there's been a lot of angst about whether SNC would just go belly up and lose thousands of jobs for Canadians.

    I guess the scandal is about people around the PM pressuring the justice minister to hold off on prosecuting for a bit? It's still not super clear what the allegation is, other than "someone in the PM's circle trying to improperly direct the justice minister".

    Truly we don't have enough information in the public right now, and all of this seems to currently be Conservatives and the media in general smelling blood and diving on it.

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  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »
    It's also frustrating how quick so much of the country is to go, "Well, the Liberals did something a bit corrupt. We'd better kick them out and elect a party who are way more corrupt and worse on basically every issue".

    Even in the coverage, it actually took me a lot of digging to find out what the actual scandal was, because most of the coverage is just pundits going on and on about how much of a disaster this is for Trudeau and the Liberals. Pundits who were pretty damn quiet when Harper was doing far worse.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go sit in the corner all bummed out, telling myself that the NDP are totally going to for realsies have a shot at winning someday.

    Yeah I'm still not sure what SNC-Lavalin actually did, aside from some muttering about bribes in Libya?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNC-Lavalin#Other_controversies
    https://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/rmcp-charges-snc-lavalin-with-corruption

    According to the RCMP they bribed leading members of Libya's ruling political party to the tune of $48MM over the course of 10 years (2001-2011) by establishing close ties with one of Gaddafi’s sons. Also defrauded Libyan public agencies of $129MM. The charges are being appealed of course. Apparently they've been involved in some other controversies around bribes paid to Indian officials for a dam in Kerala and also the building of the McGill University Health Centre in Montreal, which nearly doubled it's budgeted cost of $700MM. It was later found that the hospital's CEO (who chose SNC might've had a conflict of interest). They've been blacklisted by the World Bank as a result.

    I don't think anyone here wants the Cons elected, and I don't think the NDP are a threat under Singh...but the Liberals should face some heat over this issue.

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Nosf wrote: »
    Thought this was a pretty good article about how the SNC Lavalin thing could have come about.

    It's a gooseshit argument. The reason anti-foreign corruption laws exist is because it's too easy for businesses to just say "that's the way of the world" and enable corruption abroad, which undermines the rule of law. And allowing companies to wiggle out of these laws just exacerbates the situation.

    Yeah, "Everybody else is doing it" is a pretty shitty excuse for breaking the law. Not to mention there's a big difference between a journalist trying to gtfo of Benghazi and a giant corporation trying to close business overseas.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Thought this was a pretty good article about how the SNC Lavalin thing could have come about.

    It's a gooseshit argument. The reason anti-foreign corruption laws exist is because it's too easy for businesses to just say "that's the way of the world" and enable corruption abroad, which undermines the rule of law. And allowing companies to wiggle out of these laws just exacerbates the situation.

    Yeah, "Everybody else is doing it" is a pretty shitty excuse for breaking the law. Not to mention there's a big difference between a journalist trying to gtfo of Benghazi and a giant corporation trying to close business overseas.

    The problem is that doing the right thing doesn't actually stop the race to the bottom, it just means you end up as the not-the-bottom with all your jobs somewhere else.

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Well compounding onto a problem is certainly worse than not engaging with it. I get that it's a complicated and nuanced matter - I'd just hope that as a country we can do better. It needs to start somewhere (and yes I realize how naive that sounds).

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Well compounding onto a problem is certainly worse than not engaging with it. I get that it's a complicated and nuanced matter - I'd just hope that as a country we can do better. It needs to start somewhere (and yes I realize how naive that sounds).

    The chinese don't care about our moral stances. They'll just pay the bribes. That's one of the biggest reasons they've become so heavily invested in africa and how they are wielding influence there.

  • BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Thought this was a pretty good article about how the SNC Lavalin thing could have come about.

    It's a gooseshit argument. The reason anti-foreign corruption laws exist is because it's too easy for businesses to just say "that's the way of the world" and enable corruption abroad, which undermines the rule of law. And allowing companies to wiggle out of these laws just exacerbates the situation.

    Yeah, "Everybody else is doing it" is a pretty shitty excuse for breaking the law. Not to mention there's a big difference between a journalist trying to gtfo of Benghazi and a giant corporation trying to close business overseas.

    The problem is that doing the right thing doesn't actually stop the race to the bottom, it just means you end up as the not-the-bottom with all your jobs somewhere else.

    This. It's the same argument that gets tossed around by free market capitalists in regards to major corporations sheltering their income in tax havens. "Hey, we'd like corporations to pay more in tax, but they just take their money to the Netherlands or Ireland! We need to be competitive, which is why its financially and socially responsible to tax <2.0%."

    The argument is frustratingly logical, but until there can be actual repercussions for ALL companies bribing third-world officials, or ALL countries offering tax havens, then what the fuck do you do? Stand on principle while the worst-of-the-worst profits off their looser morals? This is also not rhetorical. I legit don't know the answer.

    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    I'm not sure I understand what your point is.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    BouwsT wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Thought this was a pretty good article about how the SNC Lavalin thing could have come about.

    It's a gooseshit argument. The reason anti-foreign corruption laws exist is because it's too easy for businesses to just say "that's the way of the world" and enable corruption abroad, which undermines the rule of law. And allowing companies to wiggle out of these laws just exacerbates the situation.

    Yeah, "Everybody else is doing it" is a pretty shitty excuse for breaking the law. Not to mention there's a big difference between a journalist trying to gtfo of Benghazi and a giant corporation trying to close business overseas.

    The problem is that doing the right thing doesn't actually stop the race to the bottom, it just means you end up as the not-the-bottom with all your jobs somewhere else.

    This. It's the same argument that gets tossed around by free market capitalists in regards to major corporations sheltering their income in tax havens. "Hey, we'd like corporations to pay more in tax, but they just take their money to the Netherlands or Ireland! We need to be competitive, which is why its financially and socially responsible to tax <2.0%."

    The argument is frustratingly logical, but until there can be actual repercussions for ALL companies bribing third-world officials, or ALL countries offering tax havens, then what the fuck do you do? Stand on principle while the worst-of-the-worst profits off their looser morals? This is also not rhetorical. I legit don't know the answer.

    The general strategy when you see this done at like the provincial or state level is to get everyone together or force everyone together and then go "No, we are not racing to the bottom here".

    The ability to pull this off at the international level is a lot dicier unfortunately. (though it's not like most countries even try anyway)

    mrondeau
  • BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    Makes sense, it's much easier for provincial/state level governments to come together on an agreement like this with the shared culture. Family and friends here are very CON-skewed, so it's hard to present an argument for this sort of collaboration between nations without sounding like "teh-globalist" they all fear.

    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Good article re: SNC Lavalin by Paul Wells: https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/canada-the-show/

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  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Jean wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Jean wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Really did not take long for Liberals to fall back into old patterns, eh?

    Yup! Feels like the sponsorship scandal all over again. Hasn't a decade in opposition taught them anything?

    Actually, a decade watching the Harper government rack up scandal after scandal while the same people who yelled about the sponsorship scandal shrugged and fell silent taught me a lot.


    The conservatives being corrupt doesn't excuse liberal corruption.

    Does attempted corruption count as corruption? Right now we're talking about the former AG (or someone in her office) allegedly being pressured to do something by someone in the PMO, and then not doing it. We don't know who applied the pressure or what form it took (or even if it actually happened at all), all we know is that it didn't work, and it also wasn't bad enough for Wilson-Raybould to quit at the time.

    And does it count as party corruption if it's done by unelected staffers without the knowledge of their bosses? If I recall correctly, Harper claimed to not know about the Nigel Wright-Mike Duffy thing, and I'd say that's only really Tory corruption because Duffy is a Senator. If he'd just been some guy, then I think it'd just be individual corruption by someone who happened to work for the PM.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    Good article re: SNC Lavalin by Paul Wells: https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/canada-the-show/

    Yeah, this gets at it. Honestly, this is emblematic of the larger problem with democracies in late-stage capitalism.

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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    The norm under which we claim to operate is ministerial responsibility. If Trudeau ordered a coverup of corrupt practices, he should resign. This does not preclude voting for the Liberals under whoever their new leader is, given legitimate concerns about the Conservatives also having corruption problems. Following these sorts of norms is how we distinguish corrupt parties from corrupt politicians.



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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    I doubt it's going to be that cut and dried.

    From the looks of things, everyone at the upper echelons of federal politics was involved to one extent or another in getting SNC-Lavalin their get out of jail free card.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    The norm under which we claim to operate is ministerial responsibility. If Trudeau ordered a coverup of corrupt practices, he should resign. This does not preclude voting for the Liberals under whoever their new leader is, given legitimate concerns about the Conservatives also having corruption problems. Following these sorts of norms is how we distinguish corrupt parties from corrupt politicians.

    I think most of us here are pretty center or left leaning for the most part.

    I do not want to have a PM that instructs his justice minister do do the things they are accused of. If the investigation finds them culpable they should resign full stop.

    I don't care if the conservatives under Harper would not or did not do the same thing. We either have principles or we don't....

    But yeah it's fucked. The NDP is lost in the woods with their policies and the conservatives literately have no agenda but to "own the libs"

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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    I doubt it's going to be that cut and dried.

    From the looks of things, everyone at the upper echelons of federal politics was involved to one extent or another in getting SNC-Lavalin their get out of jail free card.

    I agree that it isn't, and that's a problem, particularly as political corruption has gone global. Senior people in both the parties with a realistic prospect of governing (both the Liberals and the Conservatives) are likely compromised by groups like the Chinese, Russians, and Saudis. The issue is complicated by the fact that the first group to make a move in the right direction will likely be punished for it, whereas the remaining bad actors will be rewarded.

    That said, the Westminster system was built with certain safeguards provided by tradition and norms. It has proven to be very robust and has stood firm in the face of the challenges of war and tyrants. The issue we see now is that we give our politicians far too much leeway in disregarding this part of the system, and focus instead on building an ever greater corpus of rules. Any system of rules can be gamed and cheated, norms and tradition come into play in patching over those shortcomings.



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  • AridholAridhol Registered User regular
    I'm not willing to elect a Conservative government on the back of this scandal or anything close to it really.

    Objectively bad legislation is worse for the country.


    Its not a game or an academic exercise.

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