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[Canadian Politics] Takin' out the trash to replace it with... whoops.

1181921232498

Posts

  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Am I the only one who had never heard of Butts before today? And I do pay some attention to politics...

    Advisers to the PM have influence, but not really much direct power to speak of, so if you're not super into the minutiae of politics, you'd never have any particular reason to know who he is. Unless you're one of those folks who comments on news websites. In which case, Gerry Butts was the cause of all the world's ills.

  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    Another thing you should watch out for... If Katie Telford leaves, that will be as big a deal as Butts departure. Her and Purchase are the next two most important inner circle types.

  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4973581/trudeau-government-leaks-support-snc-lavalin-wilson-raybould-poll/

    Libs are losing some support, though the poll sample wasn't randomly selected (don't know how they chose their sample).

    I wonder if losing support in Ontario will matter if they can manage to maintain or gain in Quebec, where most of the media seems to be vehemently against any conviction of SNC.

    At the same time Trudeau risks alienating Native American groups, and potentially women as well. It's worrying cause Trudeau himself is vulnerable in the upcoming election, and I would be crushed if the Conservative Party won the election.

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    I can't believe Ontario is considering voting Scheer while Ford is actively fucking up the province. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

    sig.gif
    BrolomrondeauGnome-InterruptusEvil MultifariousCaulk Bite 6SatanIsMyMotorJohn C. TurbineAegisShadowenTubularLuggageCanadianWolverine
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Remember, Ontario votes people out, as opposed to voting people in.

    finnithEvil Multifarious
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Also your standard right-wrong voter seems to think Ford is doing a good job.

    Al_watEtiowsa
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Also re: Gerald Butts...guy has apparently been Trudeau's friend since McGill and helped write the eulogy for Pierre Elliot Trudeau that put Justin on the political map.

    It's echoes of what happened to Nigel Wright in the Harper gov't.

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
    oldmanken
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Comparing Butts to Pruitt et al seemed a bit much, even with caveats but -

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/gerald-butts-1.5023925

    is still a good read.

  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Comparing Butts to Pruitt et al seemed a bit much, even with caveats but -

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/gerald-butts-1.5023925

    is still a good read.

    I was about to post this having just read it.

    The point regarding the use of euphemisms is well-made, but pretty obvious/incidental. Politicians use euphemism, sky is blue, etc. Who cares???

    I don't quite understand how identity politics plays a part in his dismissal. It certainly ups the damage to the gov't, but I don't see how dismissing him staunches the flow there.

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Whoever is in charge of damage control in the PMO office needs to quit .

    THis is spinning out pretty fast and every step they have taken is in the wrong direction IMO.

    PSN: Canadian_llama
    RichyBroloShadowhope
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Whoever is in charge of damage control in the PMO office needs to quit .

    THis is spinning out pretty fast and every step they have taken is in the wrong direction IMO.

    It was probably Butts up until this point.

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
    John C. Turbine
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Whoever is in charge of damage control in the PMO office needs to quit .

    THis is spinning out pretty fast and every step they have taken is in the wrong direction IMO.

    The problem is, the Liberals are acting under the assumption that the MSM is fair, their reporting unbiased, and the public well-informed.

    The MSM is openly cheering for the CPC, their reporting spins everything in the worst possible way for Trudeau, and the public gets its information from Twitter memes.

    sig.gif
    Caulk Bite 6shrykeEtiowsaAegisGnome-InterruptusShadowenTubularLuggage
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited February 19
    finnith wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Comparing Butts to Pruitt et al seemed a bit much, even with caveats but -

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/gerald-butts-1.5023925

    is still a good read.

    I was about to post this having just read it.

    The point regarding the use of euphemisms is well-made, but pretty obvious/incidental. Politicians use euphemism, sky is blue, etc. Who cares???

    I don't quite understand how identity politics plays a part in his dismissal. It certainly ups the damage to the gov't, but I don't see how dismissing him staunches the flow there.

    My take was championing feminism and the indigenous angle was Butts' work, and it was the demotion of a female indigenous minister that lead to their current predicament. They claimed to be all about those things and they are, to an extent - but political priorities and all that.

    Nosf on
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Whoever is in charge of damage control in the PMO office needs to quit .

    THis is spinning out pretty fast and every step they have taken is in the wrong direction IMO.

    The problem is, the Liberals are acting under the assumption that the MSM is fair, their reporting unbiased, and the public well-informed.

    The MSM is openly cheering for the CPC, their reporting spins everything in the worst possible way for Trudeau, and the public gets its information from Twitter memes.

    So what's your view with respect to SNC issue? Is pressuring Wilson-Raybould a non-issue in your eyes or simply not worth penalizing the Liberals in light of the alternative?

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    BroloshrykemrondeauRichyDescendant XfinnithAegisShadowenTubularLuggageCaulk Bite 6
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
    Disco11
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    But if it's kept in the news long enough it can be Trudeau's Benghazi moment. I doubt the average person could tell you exactly what the accusations are, or what wrongdoing actually occurred, but they'll always associate the person with the scandal, and vice-versa.

    AridholshrykeEtiowsaGnome-Interruptus
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    shrykemrondeauGnome-InterruptusTubularLuggage
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    PSN: Canadian_llama
    ShadowhopeCanadianWolverine
  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    NDP on the attack in Alberta.
    https://thetruthaboutjasonkenney.ca

    Seeing ads popping up on youtube and the facebooks. Unfortunately I think the things that they point out about Jason would be the exact stuff the folks they want to attract would like.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Whoever is in charge of damage control in the PMO office needs to quit .

    THis is spinning out pretty fast and every step they have taken is in the wrong direction IMO.

    The problem is, the Liberals are acting under the assumption that the MSM is fair, their reporting unbiased, and the public well-informed.

    The MSM is openly cheering for the CPC, their reporting spins everything in the worst possible way for Trudeau, and the public gets its information from Twitter memes.

    Yup. They wanna spin this into a huge thing and it's gonna end up like Benghazi or Buttery Males where the majority have no idea what actually happened but the tenor of the headlines and facebook bullshit they see in their feed means "Trudeau == Bad".

    One of the interesting/terrifying things Dan Pfeiffer (one of the Pod Save guys and a communications advisor for Obama) was talking about was how back in 2008 they'd do focus groups and nobody really gave a shit about this kind of thing and it was all "economy, my job, my healthcare costs, etc, etc". By 2016 it was nothing but "I read about this thing on Facebook".

    FencingsaxAridholAegisGnome-InterruptusShadowen
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    PSN: Canadian_llama
    ArcticLancerAridhol
  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    What actions are we even talking about here, though? As seems to be thoroughly glossed over by nearly every media report, the whole scandal is that someone in the PMO tried to pressure the AG to do something, and then she didn't do it

    Gnome-InterruptusShadowenKayne Red Robe
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    What actions are we even talking about here, though? As seems to be thoroughly glossed over by nearly every media report, the whole scandal is that someone in the PMO tried to pressure the AG to do something, and then she didn't do it

    Not only was the crime that they pressured her (this is OK depending on how much pressure they exerted), but that she was demoted to a lower-priority Cabinet position presumably b/c she did not bow to said pressure. Moreover information was put out afterwards relating that she was removed cause she was "difficult to work with", "mean" , etc.

    Bnet: CavilatRest#1874
    Steam: CavilatRest
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular

    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    What actions are we even talking about here, though? As seems to be thoroughly glossed over by nearly every media report, the whole scandal is that someone in the PMO tried to pressure the AG to do something, and then she didn't do it

    Yeah.

    That's super against the rules. Like, criminal interference especially with SNC being a massive liberal donor..... And a lot of trails are pointing to the fact she got demoted soon afterwards.

    Do you honestly not see the issue here?

    PSN: Canadian_llama
    AridholKetBrafinnithJean
  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    What actions are we even talking about here, though? As seems to be thoroughly glossed over by nearly every media report, the whole scandal is that someone in the PMO tried to pressure the AG to do something, and then she didn't do it

    Yeah.

    That's super against the rules. Like, criminal interference especially with SNC being a massive liberal donor..... And a lot of trails are pointing to the fact she got demoted soon afterwards.

    Do you honestly not see the issue here?

    Uh... which specific rules is it against? There might be a case for an ethical violation, but as far as I can tell, there's no actual crime involved.

    SNC isn't and can't be a massive Liberal donor. A former executive got busted for suggesting employees donate and then reimbursing those donations last year, but the last one of those was apparently in 2011 and the total was about $110,000 over seven years, hardly massive. This whole idea that political parties can be bought with amounts of money that *I* could personally come up with has always seemed ludicrous to me. No party would owe anyone any favours over that, particularly since the current PM was far from being in charge at that point.

    And I suppose one could consider three months "soon" but it's not like it was some kind of immediate cause-effect thing.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    What actions are we even talking about here, though? As seems to be thoroughly glossed over by nearly every media report, the whole scandal is that someone in the PMO tried to pressure the AG to do something, and then she didn't do it

    Yeah.

    That's super against the rules. Like, criminal interference especially with SNC being a massive liberal donor..... And a lot of trails are pointing to the fact she got demoted soon afterwards.

    Do you honestly not see the issue here?

    Uh... which specific rules is it against? There might be a case for an ethical violation, but as far as I can tell, there's no actual crime involved.

    SNC isn't and can't be a massive Liberal donor. A former executive got busted for suggesting employees donate and then reimbursing those donations last year, but the last one of those was apparently in 2011 and the total was about $110,000 over seven years, hardly massive. This whole idea that political parties can be bought with amounts of money that *I* could personally come up with has always seemed ludicrous to me. No party would owe anyone any favours over that, particularly since the current PM was far from being in charge at that point.

    And I suppose one could consider three months "soon" but it's not like it was some kind of immediate cause-effect thing.

    Currently the limit is $1600/indivdual or entity (including corporations). There's been a few instances of individuals using spouses, children, and other related parties to get past the limit without directly violating the law, and SNC's case was flagged cause the company itself was reimbursing employees in some cases for political donations.

    I'm not sure how you don't see money donated as influence. The Liberal Party exists beyond being an extension of the PM, it's a pretty old organization after all.

    Moreover you have to consider the potential political damage done to the Libs' position in QC if SNC ran into more trouble as a result of its conviction. Layoffs would certainly result, and that would negatively impact their electoral chances there.

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  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    Uh... which specific rules is it against? There might be a case for an ethical violation, but as far as I can tell, there's no actual crime involved.

    SNC isn't and can't be a massive Liberal donor. A former executive got busted for suggesting employees donate and then reimbursing those donations last year, but the last one of those was apparently in 2011 and the total was about $110,000 over seven years, hardly massive. This whole idea that political parties can be bought with amounts of money that *I* could personally come up with has always seemed ludicrous to me. No party would owe anyone any favours over that, particularly since the current PM was far from being in charge at that point.

    And I suppose one could consider three months "soon" but it's not like it was some kind of immediate cause-effect thing.

    Currently the limit is $1600/indivdual or entity (including corporations). There's been a few instances of individuals using spouses, children, and other related parties to get past the limit without directly violating the law, and SNC's case was flagged cause the company itself was reimbursing employees in some cases for political donations.

    I'm not sure how you don't see money donated as influence. The Liberal Party exists beyond being an extension of the PM, it's a pretty old organization after all.

    Moreover you have to consider the potential political damage done to the Libs' position in QC if SNC ran into more trouble as a result of its conviction. Layoffs would certainly result, and that would negatively impact their electoral chances there.

    The limit for corporations is $0. Corporate donations to federal political parties have been banned for over a decade. I see money as influence, but I don't see small amounts of money as wielding these disproportionate amounts of influence that people seem to ascribe to them. The Liberal Party raised nearly $14 million in 2017, so the idea that someone who gave them 0.8% of that (including donations to the leadership campaigns of people who aren't even MPs any more) seven or eight years ago (over the course of seven years, no less) could somehow buy a massive political favour just seems mad to me. Mulroney personally got 3x that much in 1993 dollars, and even that wasn't necessarily all that influential.

    Unfortunately, laws get changed to benefit various corporations or industries all the time, so I don't find that particularly scandalous, nor is the fact that the government of the day would prefer it if a massive employer didn't have to shut down or lay people off due to prosecution, and I'd say the same thing no matter who was in power.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    I haven't been super fretful about what the Liberals did because I pretty much figure the Conservatives would do the same.

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    I haven't been super fretful about what the Liberals did because I pretty much figure the Conservatives would do the same.

    No. They would do much, much worse.

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Meanwhile, somewhere someone in the NDP is punching out the top of their hat in frustration that they aren't being discussed as who wins the next election instead of the Conservatives because Trudeau making a mess of his own "Real Change" branding (you know, on top of things like the electoral reform or pipeline stuff) by pressuring and 'demoting' his First Nations wonder woman who survived his cabinet shuffles up till recently, which runs way counter to the BS that she is difficult to work with, all for a corporation that loves bribes (apparently they are on the hook for not just outside the country offers but in Quebec as well IIRC).

    For some reason that is beyond me, its like some foregone conclusion that not only is this something that allows the Cons to gain seats when they hardly have a leg to stand on about being above corruption or supporting women in positions of power or first nations reconciliation, while the NDP just seem to be invisible as agents of saying "Thanks Trudeau, we'll just take this Real Change(tm) ball and run with it instead, eh?" What is going on for Jagmeet Singh that he isn't even a part of this conversation of who will win in rubbing Trudeau's nose in his own hypocrisy in how they treated Jody Wilson-Raybould?

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Meanwhile, somewhere someone in the NDP is punching out the top of their hat in frustration that they aren't being discussed as who wins the next election instead of the Conservatives because Trudeau making a mess of his own "Real Change" branding (you know, on top of things like the electoral reform or pipeline stuff) by pressuring and 'demoting' his First Nations wonder woman who survived his cabinet shuffles up till recently, which runs way counter to the BS that she is difficult to work with, all for a corporation that loves bribes (apparently they are on the hook for not just outside the country offers but in Quebec as well IIRC).

    For some reason that is beyond me, its like some foregone conclusion that not only is this something that allows the Cons to gain seats when they hardly have a leg to stand on about being above corruption or supporting women in positions of power or first nations reconciliation, while the NDP just seem to be invisible as agents of saying "Thanks Trudeau, we'll just take this Real Change(tm) ball and run with it instead, eh?" What is going on for Jagmeet Singh that he isn't even a part of this conversation of who will win in rubbing Trudeau's nose in his own hypocrisy in how they treated Jody Wilson-Raybould?
    What's happening is that Ontarians have made it super clear that they will never vote NDP. In fact, they have made it clear that the possibility of a NDP government will just throw the election to the Conservatives.
    On top of that, the Liberals were moving into the space traditionally occupied by the NDP.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited February 20
    Jagmeet doesn't seem ready at all. Mulcair was adequate? Making Jagmeet leader seems like a hilarious mistake. I guess that won't matter if he doesn't pick up Burnaby South.

    Nosf on
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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    This issue is not worth the liberals losing control and certainly not worth losing it to the CPC.
    The list of scandals where this would be worth it is very short.

    Whether or not we care is irrelevant given that a lot of voters clearly do.

    I think this sort of approach risks things like what happened to the OLP in the recent election. Exhaustion with Liberal party scandals and flip-flopping eventually resulted in fucking Doug Ford getting elected. There's got to be a way of exerting pressure on your elected officials if something like this happens without voting in the Conservatives.

    There should be a way but there isn't because voters collectively are dumb. If the NDP wasn't failing at treading water right now maybe there would be an alternative but they're basically non-existant at this point.
    Voters see bad news stories and think "Those guys are bad, get em out!" and they don't think about the 5 minutes after that where you get someone who makes your life worse.

    Not to toot our own horns here but this level of awareness and discussion about politics in Canada is extremely rare.

    That attitude is EXACTLY what this scandal is about FYI.

    "We can't prosecute because think of the damage/alternatives etc etc etc"

    If Harper did the same people specifically on this boards would have been calling for blood. We can either judge each case by it's merits or drop the pretense that we are any better than the right.

    I do get where you are coming from though

    People would be, I would be, I understand the double standard.
    The reason I keep this in my head is that politics isn't a video game and "My corrupt guv" vs "that corrupt govt" is in what they do for the country. I absolutely understand a conservative voter who is well informed and is livid at this scandal. They're right too.

    I can only speak for myself but 2016 and onwards has been a very educational time for me regarding taking the high road.

    I think we're on the same page. How can we deter this shit if there is no consequences without ending up with worse consequences. I have no answer for this.

    Oh I don't either.

    Just sucks to be on the side of the political spectrum that has "morals" and "consequences for ones actions"

    What actions are we even talking about here, though? As seems to be thoroughly glossed over by nearly every media report, the whole scandal is that someone in the PMO tried to pressure the AG to do something, and then she didn't do it

    Yeah.

    That's super against the rules. Like, criminal interference especially with SNC being a massive liberal donor..... And a lot of trails are pointing to the fact she got demoted soon afterwards.

    Do you honestly not see the issue here?

    It's not though. In fact it would be somewhat irresponsible for the PMO not to weigh in on a topic like that. My understanding is that even Scheer had meetings with SNC around the same very topic as a potential PM.

    I'm not saying that there isn't a scandal here but it's not for the reason you're highlighting.

  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Jagmeet doesn't seem ready at all. Mulcair was adequate? Making Jagmeet leader seems like a hilarious mistake. I guess that won't matter if he doesn't pick up Burnaby South.

    I'd respectfully disagree. Singh actually got off to a really good start after winning the leadership in my opinion. But then he and the party have been a bit quiet for a while for the most part, and seem to be searching for a clear message/direction at the moment. I do think his not having a seat in the House for so long hasn't helped matters, and if we're being honest, there are probably reasons he isn't being given nearly as much media time as Scheer. I think much of their current lack of direction would be happening under any of their leadership candidates though. While I do think it's temporary, I think their current problems go much deeper than their current leader.

    As for Mulcair, while he was certainly 'fine', I feel like he squandered a great opportunity. He moved enough toward the center on a number of things that the Liberals were able to run to their left in many areas, and he ran a pretty lackluster campaign. It also felt like he didn't do much with his time as opposition leader.

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  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    I'd be surprised if Singh makes it past the current election cycle at this point. The racist message by the Liberal candidate in Burnaby South was a stroke of luck though.

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  • Descendant XDescendant X Hank Facepunch Registered User regular
    I would LOVE to see the NDP win the next election with Singh as the leader just so I could sit back and listen to heads explode.

    Then I think about all the shit I already have to listen to about Trudeau, and remind myself that it would probably triple if Singh were PM.

    Meh, it'd still be worth it.

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  • BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    edited February 20
    Nosf wrote: »
    Jagmeet doesn't seem ready at all. Mulcair was adequate? Making Jagmeet leader seems like a hilarious mistake. I guess that won't matter if he doesn't pick up Burnaby South.

    I'd respectfully disagree. Singh actually got off to a really good start after winning the leadership in my opinion. But then he and the party have been a bit quiet for a while for the most part, and seem to be searching for a clear message/direction at the moment. I do think his not having a seat in the House for so long hasn't helped matters, and if we're being honest, there are probably reasons he isn't being given nearly as much media time as Scheer. I think much of their current lack of direction would be happening under any of their leadership candidates though. While I do think it's temporary, I think their current problems go much deeper than their current leader.

    As for Mulcair, while he was certainly 'fine', I feel like he squandered a great opportunity. He moved enough toward the center on a number of things that the Liberals were able to run to their left in many areas, and he ran a pretty lackluster campaign. It also felt like he didn't do much with his time as opposition leader.

    I don't think you're being as charitable as you should be. The NDP pre-Mulcair felt very fringe, and it took a lot of time and effort to get them into the position they were in prior to his passing. That was as large a tragedy for the NDP as it was a boon for their competitors. It honestly felt like he was nipping at their heels for a while there. I thought Singh looked like a good choice from the outset but (at least here in Alberta) it's been radio silence because their Federal presence is nearly non-existent here, and their Provincial presence is.... Polarizing to say the least.

    Edit: Was thinking of Jack Layton here, good lord help me.

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    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    I think it's a bit premature to make predictions about the current party leaders through the next election. I can remember at the start of the last official election campaign, many were expecting prime minister Mulcair, and the Liberals were in a distant third with many writing off Trudeau's candidacy as a desperation move for the party.
    Now, I'm not expecting a similar come from behind victory for the NDP this time around. But getting into specifics, one thing I've learned about federal elections in this country is that they're extremely unpredictable.

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