I don't think I've been onboard for the start of a season in literally years, so that's a little exciting.
I mean, sure, lucking into a group with a Paragon Level One Billion player and leveling up 50 times in a single Rift is pretty great and all, but one thing I enjoy about seasons is the initial rush where nobody really has anything. That fresh account feeling where I am actually hidden away from all my blacksmith recipes and stockpile of gems and cubed benefits.
I'm not sure exactly what my evening looks like, but I am tentatively hoping to be around right at the start, and will try to keep an eye on the PAF community or wherever else I need to in order to get back in.
I do intend to go Hardcore again (it now seems to be my way), which I know will segregate me away from most other players. Do we have any other forum folks that are expecting to go HC this season, to dabble or full out?
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
As a counterpoint: I wish they'd make leveling take real time, instead of being "that thing you rush through in 2-6 hours" at the beginning of every season. I'd like to see them balance it such that streamers would take AT LEAST a few days, if not a week, to lvl. More casual players (like myself) might take a full first third of the season to get there.
Leveling is the only time there's any diversity in the itemization and away from planner/spreadsheet builds, basically.
The problem is that leveling gameplay is painfully slow compared to the endgame. I'm sure D4 will be the same. Once you've gotten accustomed to playing at a fast pace, the newbie experience will always be boring in comparison. Besides, with D4 they're making claims to be doing a lot to improve build diversity in general.
It's a problem in the sense that the current community defines endgame success as being able to clear rifts in 2 minutes and melt any boss/guardian in <30 sec. That is because Blizzard basically built a game that systematically rewarded clear speed above all else when their concept at release of trying to make it almost impossibly difficult to complete at the highest difficulty at all failed spectacularly.
But yes, I'm basically actively advocating that they don't do that again, and include systems that reduce the effectiveness of speed farming/leveling, and instead encourage pushing into more difficult content at a slower gameplay pace.
I get that some think that's boring. I personally think these builds where you run through a dungeon and every enemy just explodes at your feet are even more boring.
Blizzard has an impossible problem, because as is obvious, everyone wants something different out of D4. MY reason for taking a potentially contrary position is because D3 already plays impossibly fast. They have no chance of building a satisfying experience that will stand up to years of play if they model it on the current state of D3 gameplay (IMO, of course).
I feel like both Blizz and GGG are scaling back the gameplay speed. D3 and PoE are extremely fast at the high end (PoE at the top tier is absurdly fast) and at least all indicators from GGG show a more deliberate gameplay focusing on combat mechanics instead of Higher Damage Always Wins.
The D4 video definitely felt more deliberate and paced.
As much as I enjoy the adrenaline rush of a 120% movespeed Ranger clear in PoE at first, or a completely maxed out DH in D4, it gets boring after a while. Good boss combat mechanics are a saving grace.
Did either game show blazing fast gameplay during the announcement window? I don't recall D3 doing so. It, in fact, showed slower mechanic heavy BS gameplay if I remember correctly. Not that D3 has bad gameplay or anything, just this early look pretty much means nothing at this point.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Did either game show blazing fast gameplay during the announcement window? I don't recall D3 doing so. It, in fact, showed slower mechanic heavy BS gameplay if I remember correctly. Not that D3 has bad gameplay or anything, just this early look pretty much means nothing at this point.
Yeah neither. The PoE2 showed a decently fast trash mob clear segment but a staged, slower boss battle segment on top. D4's showing didn't show as much direct gameplay but the little we saw as definitely more focused and less spazzy.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Did either game show blazing fast gameplay during the announcement window? I don't recall D3 doing so. It, in fact, showed slower mechanic heavy BS gameplay if I remember correctly. Not that D3 has bad gameplay or anything, just this early look pretty much means nothing at this point.
D3's early gameplay trailers were slow as molasses compared to even the D4 trailer, let alone the speed of D3's current gameplay.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Did either game show blazing fast gameplay during the announcement window? I don't recall D3 doing so. It, in fact, showed slower mechanic heavy BS gameplay if I remember correctly. Not that D3 has bad gameplay or anything, just this early look pretty much means nothing at this point.
D3's early gameplay trailers were slow as molasses compared to even the D4 trailer, let alone the speed of D3's current gameplay.
D3's problem was the power creep got out of control due to the game being designed around a RMAH and then suddenly there wasn't one.
Did either game show blazing fast gameplay during the announcement window? I don't recall D3 doing so. It, in fact, showed slower mechanic heavy BS gameplay if I remember correctly. Not that D3 has bad gameplay or anything, just this early look pretty much means nothing at this point.
D3's early gameplay trailers were slow as molasses compared to even the D4 trailer, let alone the speed of D3's current gameplay.
D3's problem was the power creep got out of control due to the game being designed around a RMAH and then suddenly there wasn't one.
RMAH really wasn't the issue here. It was infinite scaling. RMAH had nothing to do with that.
Did either game show blazing fast gameplay during the announcement window? I don't recall D3 doing so. It, in fact, showed slower mechanic heavy BS gameplay if I remember correctly. Not that D3 has bad gameplay or anything, just this early look pretty much means nothing at this point.
D3's early gameplay trailers were slow as molasses compared to even the D4 trailer, let alone the speed of D3's current gameplay.
D3's problem was the power creep got out of control due to the game being designed around a RMAH and then suddenly there wasn't one.
RMAH really wasn't the issue here. It was infinite scaling. RMAH had nothing to do with that.
Well it's a bit of both. The early versions of D3 had low drop rates, very very low, like I didn't even find a legendary on several playthroughs of the campaign low. Then they undid that, removed varied droprates eventually, and now it's not whether your item drops but what the stats are. And the only thing they could do with the setup they had was go Bigger Faster More.
The infinite scaling without an ending anchor point (Plus ancients/primals) like PoE or D2 have also caused some issues, especially since the only way you can scale things is forever upwards. If there were some kind of bosses in grifts (Not just the grift boss but like, a singular rare encounter that would be extremely difficult) to anchor the endgame to they could balance around this and make more builds viable. This is partly why D2 and PoE have so many builds.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I am purely talking about how fast or slow the game looked in trailers, nothing else.
It's generally related. With infinite scaling metas and an endgame built around killing the blue/yellow mobs as fast as possible, clearspeed is #1. So obviously movespeed and movement skills are going to be buffed as well. I hope both devs make the focus more on interesting boss fights.
To backtrack a bit, GOTTA GO FAST is why I still like GR pushing. There’s usually a sweet spot for your gear level that’s high enough for a rift to take 10-15 minutes and have more deliberate decisions, but low enough that you won’t get obliterated in a blink.
As to how we got here, I agree that it wasn’t the RMAH. “We generally don’t want people to log in and feel weaker” created various Pandora’s boxes.
One of the earliest I can think of is around the time of Sentry DH, Del-Rasha bubble wiz, and Charge barb. The first two were very fun and slower paced, but people complained because barbs darted so far ahead that everything else was left behind. Instead of slowing down barbs, they started speeding everything else up.
Quin pointed out recently, grinding paragon until your eyes bled wasn’t really a thing when we were pushing 50-60s. Eventually XP just couldn’t keep up and it wasn’t worth it. When power increased and people were easily able to get past 800, they realized that the paragon scaling completely breaks around then and you can just go nuts. Again, they could’ve dialed things back, changed the scaling... instead they embraced it and in fact, compounded it by adding the augment grind.
Then you have kanai’s cube, haedrig’s gifts, ramaladni’s, etc., each ramping it up again...
Loot went through several iterations before we got to where we are today. Diablo 3 loot as of Nov 22 2019 is so radically different from the 1.0 retail launch that it might as well be a completely different game.
Yes, 1.0 was slow, the drop rates were abysmal, legendaries generally sucked, and your best loot was finding rares that rolled with good stat ranges and the right affixes. The game was still playable back then, but Adventure Mode did not exist, and Inferno was the highest difficulty. The game did not really have power creep in 1.0. It had a definite capping point where you could basically say "this character is done and there is nothing more I can accomplish."
I can't remember the whole timeline of loot iterations because that was like 9 years ago, but just off the top of my head here's some things they did:
-Abolish the RMAH
-Add "bad luck protection" (this was not in at launch)
-Original Bad Luck protection was still very bad. It was basically like 1 legendary per 4 hours of playtime
-Back luck protection was improved, they halved it, and improved the rate to 1 legendary per 2 hours of playtime
-Bad luck protection was halved again, increasing drop rate to 1 legendary per 1 hour of gameplay
Then ROS came out, adventure mode came out. Sets were re-balanced and made good. Over time legendaries have all been improved, new legendaries added, old legendaries reworked with new properties, etc.
And when rifts and then later Greater Rifts were added to the game, they completely blew the lid off of drop rates, and instead of measuring loot per hour, it was more of a loot per second kind of thing.
I don't think I've been onboard for the start of a season in literally years, so that's a little exciting.
I mean, sure, lucking into a group with a Paragon Level One Billion player and leveling up 50 times in a single Rift is pretty great and all, but one thing I enjoy about seasons is the initial rush where nobody really has anything. That fresh account feeling where I am actually hidden away from all my blacksmith recipes and stockpile of gems and cubed benefits.
I'm not sure exactly what my evening looks like, but I am tentatively hoping to be around right at the start, and will try to keep an eye on the PAF community or wherever else I need to in order to get back in.
I do intend to go Hardcore again (it now seems to be my way), which I know will segregate me away from most other players. Do we have any other forum folks that are expecting to go HC this season, to dabble or full out?
I think there are one or two people on the PC who play HC, but not many of us. Oddly enough we should be online for the beginning of the season.
Honestly I like the current scaling (or what it was when I stopped playing a year or two ago) as regardless of level (pre 70 or beyond) you had something to make meaningful progress on:
Paragon and gems, and poorly rolled loot was still useful for cubing.
A lot of people speak fondly of D2X, but I do not miss endless meph runs for nothing (as xp didn't matter much and it was more about finding specific legs or set pieces). It was way more binary then, whereas now every rift (especially GR) means something.
D3 was originally intended to slow down the pace of the game significantly from D2. Thus no sprinting, cooldowns on movement abilities, etc. There was very little you could do at launch to speed up your character by skipping cooldowns or having infinite resources. That didn't really change until post-launch patches and especially RoS, which emphasized speed running and added legendaries that just blew the door open on traversal.
They've made similar comments about D4's pacing being slower by design, we'll see if they stick to it. Certainly the pace of low level gameplay is probably going to be about as slow as it is now in D3.
Given that this is Blizzard, talking about a game that doesn't even have a release date (aside from "Eventually"), I think that putting any stock in what they're saying at this point is setting you up for disappointment.
Anything that they say now can be changed a half dozen times in the next 4-5 years until we actually get a date, and then an additional 3-4 times as that date is pushed back, and then again through post game patches.
Aside from "Barbarian, Druid, Wizard", pretty much everything else seems up in the air, including "...and two other classes we haven't decided on yet".
For those who don't remember or weren't there for Diablo 3's trailers/release anticipation cycle, this is what 3clipse was talking about.
The funny thing is, IIRC, there was quite a bit of angst at how "WoW-like" the game was in this demo. In retrospec now though, most wish we would've gotten this instead of what did come...
For those who don't remember or weren't there for Diablo 3's trailers/release anticipation cycle, this is what 3clipse was talking about.
Boy, watching that barbarian standing still and ineffectually swinging at a large group of ghouls around the 1 minute mark really underlines for me how much I don't want an experience like this. I don't have as much time to play games as I used to, and it already feels incredibly frustrating to deal with a damage-sponge boss or to accidentally put yourself on a difficulty that's a tad too high for what you can handle. I suppose you can tune the game so that staying in one place and hitting a guy for two minutes will give you the same amount of reward that blitzing around in D3 for two minutes gives you, but I think the feeling of progress is as important as actual progress.
Also, +1 to what what schuss said about every minute of D3 play contributing to progress in some way. Man, that's a good thing when sometimes you only have the time for a 10-minute rift. Even those 10 minutes provide forward progress.
I was bummed out by the final seasonal thing in Destiny 2 so I decided to load up D3 (i had been watching a few runs of D2, presumably Youtube was recommending it to me because of Diablo 4 but I didn't really feel like playing D2) and finished leveling my Necromancer from waaaaay back when. And then after watching a "best start" guide for the new season I decided to try to quickly level a Barbarian and just basically via rifts, and then as I approached 70 bounties (so I could get the crafting materials to get some legendary stuff in my cube). It went really fast, way faster than I expected. I mean it was still a lot of hours, and I'm sure with a party or with people who have played more than once in the past 2-3 years, it could go way faster. Of course it also relied on access to things I wouldn't have access to in a new season (top gems, materials for gear and gold to reroll a 70 weapon to 40ish).
But it seemed like a reasonable path for later with the new season, even if it might be a bit slower because of the lack of starter stuff. I kind of understand using the challenge rift to get a headstart?
It seems like you just make your ladder character, then do the challenge rift, and when you log back into your challenge character afterward, it'll have that box?
I have a question though, for clarification. Actually probably more than one.
With that starter stuff, is it a good idea on any class to do some shard gambling for a legendary? or just like barb (and necro?), and the other classes you want to wait some levels? I've seen the d3planner site with the lists you can sort and stuff; do you basically want to wait till the minimum level of a legendary you want, then get that level and start gambling? And with that, I am not totally clear on how using the upgrade rare option of the cube works to get legendaries, and how to know what legendary to expect. A few videos I watched where the guy suggested doing that, he seemed to know exactly what he was going to get and that didn't make a lot of sense to me.
Also what's the best way to get set gear? I am to understand there are set dungeons or something now? But it doesn't seem like they exist outside of a seasonal character? I got a piece of a set on my barb last night in a rift and (I don't remember what it was off hand) and the 6 piece was like +20k% damage to several abilities and that is mighty appealing! I just don't know the best way to go about looking for them, since whatever the set dungeons are, don't seem to be enabled.
And with the starter stuff, lets say you use your shards to get a good item out of the gate. Do you want to use it, or are you intended to just go use it in the cube and have it be a base ability? one video I watched on a demon hunter mentioned a bow and a quiver that are a super powerful combo, but can you use both those in the cube? Is a quiver considered "armor"?
Lastly, I guess this is entirely subjective, but what class would be good for starting fresh here? I just played a necro and barb (up to GR20 just to see if I could do it; seemed reasonable, but again, I relied on access to gems and crafting stuff I won't have immediately) so I'm up to speed on them, but in the past I have leveled everything to 70 at some point or another, even if I haven't played them in years. It sounds like Crusader is getting some pretty rad buffs, or at least a super nice set that could make them pretty powerful? And necros seem like they're generally top tier and also pretty soloable? But apparently their gimmie set isn't fantastic? I remember quite liking Crusader, at least I felt like it was better at doing what barbs should have been able to do, but this was a long long time ago and I imagine balance/gear changes since then have altered that. I did really enjoy leveling barb, and in the past I never made it above 40 because I just got so bored with it, so that's something. WD was always eh to me, I always would have rathered play Necro (and did eventually! though I really miss the huge army of skeles from D2). Wizard I have zero recollection of, for better or worse. I also remember liking DH more than I expected, but the way I played (I wanna say a lot of turrets? It's been years and years) doesn't seem viable now?
A problem I've always had with Diablo games is how I like playing virtually never works with high end end-game stuff. I happily played through the campaign on my necro doing more than fine but then just couldn't get far in rifts; but I changed out a couple things based on some info I looked up after I got a weapon that increased bone spear damage and that just opened up what I could do immensely. I went from doing 200k/hit with anything to doing 20m with bone spears only changing one skill and getting one weapon. I watched a video last night of a crusader setup using the new set and a lot of other stuff trying to figure out the "best" push build in s19 and it was doing 10's of billions of damage a hit, at least, and that was pretty nuts!
Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be? Guides that show leveling/starter builds are things that more resemble the way I play, and the progression stuff is usually where it goes way off course, and feels really awkward. But after testing something with Necro the other night, I realized very quickly when a build says certain gear is required, it usually means required, and the build will just straight up not work otherwise (I don't remember what it was, but there was no earner, and I didn't even have a way to break boxes or doors).
Anyway I'm rambling. So yeah, starting shard gambling. Is there a rule of thumb? Are there guides (maybe not videos, something I can just read and have up) for different classes on what to gamble for when? Set gear, just run rifts? Or are the set dungeons easy to understand? Do you cube your early legendaries or just use them normally? What class this season comes with a good set, that will be good for getting started for the season as a whole? I'm up to speed on Necro/Barb but then again, I just played Necro/Barb and leveling them immediately again is...eh? I guess maybe a better question would be, what is a good class that can bring themselves up well, when you don't have a stash full of gems and such to rely on?
EDIT: Oh, is there a checklist or anything for pets/wings that you can get in-game? These weren't a thing (well, they were, just individual items you had to activate, and there were only a small small handful) last time I played, but apparently there are lots now. I guess there's a certain goblin type that can drop pets? I did get one from one yesterday, wasn't expecting that. Later ran into a section of a rift that had about a dozen goblins in one place, but none the pet type apparently.
Yes, I know. Never go on reddit never go on reddit. There is good info on reddit.
That guide, I think, answers a lot of your questions. IE: What you should gamble on for shards to start, what starting builds look like, etc.]
To address some of your other observations.
Leveling from 1 to 70, you are correct. Anything goes, use the skills you like, it doesn't matter.
Progression post 70, really is a different type of game. Your build is ultimately going to be defined by sets and legendary items. So, hopefully, the class and skills you like best have sets an items that support them. If not, then you are out of luck and those skills are not really viable for a lot of the post 70 game.
In terms of the more, broad "what class is best for starting fresh." I mean, there are so many variables here, but really you should just play the class you enjoy most.
All of the classes have viable builds for everything.
You could come at it from another direction, but this requires more interaction. What are your favorite skills? You talk about your play patterns falling off at the high end. So tell us your favorite skills, and we can tell you if there is a build that supports them.
If you are reading this add me.
D3: HexDex#1281, PSN: DireOtter, Live: DireOtter
@The Dude With Herpes look up Bluddshedd on YouTube, he's been doing season start guides for all the classes - good stuff to gamble for, starter 70 builds, etc.
He doesn't even waffle a lot like most YouTubers, so things are pretty on point
Well I really like pets. I always liked playing with pets on WD and Necro has some fun ones too.
Way back when, afaik, there was no real viable path to using pets end-game for WD. I remember hitting 60 and just kind of...that was that! They did too low damage to do higher difficulties and either there weren't any legendaries that really benefited pets, or they were too rare.
Now though getting legendaries is way more accessible and there seems to be a much wider range of options for pets.
Looking at the list of gifts for S19 it looks like the set the Necro comes with actually does buff your pets, so that is appealing. But when I watched the Bluddshed video on starting a necro this season, he didn't sound terribly enamored with the set and seemed to basically say that for progression in rifts and difficulties you'll have to go a different direction, which led me to believe that maybe it's still the case where pets simply can't really compete without a lot of specific gear and even still not so much. Even then though, I don't see myself trying to push to GR 150 or something, I just want to be able to play when I want to play (typically solo) and still make progress, level gems, set up alts, etc.
I just don't like playing a pet class and not using pets. I know that even back in D2 Necro pets really weren't even viable for long either and that's one of the reasons I never played much of the hell stuff. I just hated on WD getting to 60/70 then having to put my pets away because they really didn't do much, and when they did it was almost always something where they just became a spell (i.e. skele's into blight bombs on Necro) and meh. I like the more commander-y feeling of a pet class, and would love a setup where I was just supporting my pets. Which is how I play while leveling.
Maybe what I'll do, if I don't succumb to the temptation of looking badass with a Crusader, is do Necro and hope I can upgrade to a bloodtide blade out of the gate
EDIT: Actually to save myself frustration, to do the cube upgrade thing, you need the exact same type of gear, right? So for a 2h scythe I need a 70 2h scythe? It isn't totally random like bloodshards where you are just choosing "2h weapon" and hope it's something resembling what you wanted?
TDWH, if you want pets, go necro. It’s fun to command the skeletons, compared to other class’ pets being aimless. And yes, upgrade a lvl 70 2h scythe.
Rathma, and any set really, is a perfectly capable of playing 99% of the game. YouTube guides are very helpful, especially Bluddshed’s as mentioned, but exist in that weird space where the streamers are trying to talk to both new players and 5000-hour players at the same time. For the purposes of returning to the game, what sets can do GR120 vs GR140 is not really worth worrying about, as literally everything is more than capable of completing the seasonal objectives.
Speaking of seasonal objectives, I noticed in the videos he kept referencing a "seasonal journey" thing that was on that planner site.
Is that something that is also in-game? When I read the news thing on the d3 site about the new season and the stuff you can earn, I walked away thinking that after you finished the campaign you'd have your whole set, but apparently there's a whole checklist of things.
Disclosure, the last time I played in a season was when the necro came out and even then only made it to 40ish and didn't get into any of the details, and prior to that was probably season 1 or 2 when there was just the transmog things I think?
Anyway gonna make my character shortly and see what the heck this challenge rift thing even is.
EDIT: Oh yeah it's there on the character select screen. Season Journey. Interesting. Wonder if it's in-game.
Welp, something with the server or my account is broken because I can’t join people’s games. Earlier, Saldonas appeared as seasonal to me, but now doesn’t. Threads talking about this issue in september lead nowhere, even into October, so I guess I’m benched for however long. :sad:
lul i made a 2h scythe to upgrade and it came out with a level req of -24
Think I'll hang onto that one! Seems like there's plenty of materials to make more.
It is nuts the 1st achievements that keep popping up. first hardcore to solo a GR45, 4 hours in? :rotate:
EDIT: I accidentally'd up to level 14 just getting to the stupid cube. which doesn't seem impressive when people are already clearing level 45 rifts, but that felt pretty fast for me! I think I was just supposed to run through but there were just all the rats and bugs. I should probably upgrade my gear.
One thing I hope they do away with in D4 are stupid little maintenance skills that you constantly have to babysit at high levels or instantly die. Those short duration 4-10 second buffs with 90+ second cooldowns that you have to abuse the game to have constantly up. I still dislike that the devs leaned into that gameplay rather than actually fixing it.
Welp, something with the server or my account is broken because I can’t join people’s games. Earlier, Saldonas appeared as seasonal to me, but now doesn’t. Threads talking about this issue in september lead nowhere, even into October, so I guess I’m benched for however long. :sad:
Can you contact Blizzard to see if they can fix it on their side?
Also if you want to do fun stuff with pets, have a look at some of Necro's builds like the Singularity build where you summon SUPAH SKELETONS to smite your foes. You can also do good stuff with things like Tasker and Theo, or stacking the crap out of thorns and then taking aberant animator to make for some very, very pointy golems and skeleton buddies
Also, booo - rolled all my shards at the start and got zero legendaries to help make my monk journey smooth =(
Otoh, the first rift boss i tookd own gave me a rpetty decent leorics!
Good news / bad news: my joining issue is “fixed”, but it seems to actually be effecting everyone off and on. So occasionally have to do some relog/remake/reinvite shenanigans, it’s not 100% clear.
Got my first legendary of the season at level 20 on the way to kill Azmodan for a bounty. It boosted my Crusader's Blessed Hammer damage by 100%. Azmodan went down fast.
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I don't think I've been onboard for the start of a season in literally years, so that's a little exciting.
I mean, sure, lucking into a group with a Paragon Level One Billion player and leveling up 50 times in a single Rift is pretty great and all, but one thing I enjoy about seasons is the initial rush where nobody really has anything. That fresh account feeling where I am actually hidden away from all my blacksmith recipes and stockpile of gems and cubed benefits.
I'm not sure exactly what my evening looks like, but I am tentatively hoping to be around right at the start, and will try to keep an eye on the PAF community or wherever else I need to in order to get back in.
I do intend to go Hardcore again (it now seems to be my way), which I know will segregate me away from most other players. Do we have any other forum folks that are expecting to go HC this season, to dabble or full out?
I feel like both Blizz and GGG are scaling back the gameplay speed. D3 and PoE are extremely fast at the high end (PoE at the top tier is absurdly fast) and at least all indicators from GGG show a more deliberate gameplay focusing on combat mechanics instead of Higher Damage Always Wins.
The D4 video definitely felt more deliberate and paced.
As much as I enjoy the adrenaline rush of a 120% movespeed Ranger clear in PoE at first, or a completely maxed out DH in D4, it gets boring after a while. Good boss combat mechanics are a saving grace.
Yeah neither. The PoE2 showed a decently fast trash mob clear segment but a staged, slower boss battle segment on top. D4's showing didn't show as much direct gameplay but the little we saw as definitely more focused and less spazzy.
D3's early gameplay trailers were slow as molasses compared to even the D4 trailer, let alone the speed of D3's current gameplay.
D3's problem was the power creep got out of control due to the game being designed around a RMAH and then suddenly there wasn't one.
RMAH really wasn't the issue here. It was infinite scaling. RMAH had nothing to do with that.
Well it's a bit of both. The early versions of D3 had low drop rates, very very low, like I didn't even find a legendary on several playthroughs of the campaign low. Then they undid that, removed varied droprates eventually, and now it's not whether your item drops but what the stats are. And the only thing they could do with the setup they had was go Bigger Faster More.
The infinite scaling without an ending anchor point (Plus ancients/primals) like PoE or D2 have also caused some issues, especially since the only way you can scale things is forever upwards. If there were some kind of bosses in grifts (Not just the grift boss but like, a singular rare encounter that would be extremely difficult) to anchor the endgame to they could balance around this and make more builds viable. This is partly why D2 and PoE have so many builds.
It's generally related. With infinite scaling metas and an endgame built around killing the blue/yellow mobs as fast as possible, clearspeed is #1. So obviously movespeed and movement skills are going to be buffed as well. I hope both devs make the focus more on interesting boss fights.
As to how we got here, I agree that it wasn’t the RMAH. “We generally don’t want people to log in and feel weaker” created various Pandora’s boxes.
One of the earliest I can think of is around the time of Sentry DH, Del-Rasha bubble wiz, and Charge barb. The first two were very fun and slower paced, but people complained because barbs darted so far ahead that everything else was left behind. Instead of slowing down barbs, they started speeding everything else up.
Quin pointed out recently, grinding paragon until your eyes bled wasn’t really a thing when we were pushing 50-60s. Eventually XP just couldn’t keep up and it wasn’t worth it. When power increased and people were easily able to get past 800, they realized that the paragon scaling completely breaks around then and you can just go nuts. Again, they could’ve dialed things back, changed the scaling... instead they embraced it and in fact, compounded it by adding the augment grind.
Then you have kanai’s cube, haedrig’s gifts, ramaladni’s, etc., each ramping it up again...
Yes, 1.0 was slow, the drop rates were abysmal, legendaries generally sucked, and your best loot was finding rares that rolled with good stat ranges and the right affixes. The game was still playable back then, but Adventure Mode did not exist, and Inferno was the highest difficulty. The game did not really have power creep in 1.0. It had a definite capping point where you could basically say "this character is done and there is nothing more I can accomplish."
I can't remember the whole timeline of loot iterations because that was like 9 years ago, but just off the top of my head here's some things they did:
-Abolish the RMAH
-Add "bad luck protection" (this was not in at launch)
-Original Bad Luck protection was still very bad. It was basically like 1 legendary per 4 hours of playtime
-Back luck protection was improved, they halved it, and improved the rate to 1 legendary per 2 hours of playtime
-Bad luck protection was halved again, increasing drop rate to 1 legendary per 1 hour of gameplay
Then ROS came out, adventure mode came out. Sets were re-balanced and made good. Over time legendaries have all been improved, new legendaries added, old legendaries reworked with new properties, etc.
And when rifts and then later Greater Rifts were added to the game, they completely blew the lid off of drop rates, and instead of measuring loot per hour, it was more of a loot per second kind of thing.
I think there are one or two people on the PC who play HC, but not many of us. Oddly enough we should be online for the beginning of the season.
Steam: betsuni7
Paragon and gems, and poorly rolled loot was still useful for cubing.
A lot of people speak fondly of D2X, but I do not miss endless meph runs for nothing (as xp didn't matter much and it was more about finding specific legs or set pieces). It was way more binary then, whereas now every rift (especially GR) means something.
They've made similar comments about D4's pacing being slower by design, we'll see if they stick to it. Certainly the pace of low level gameplay is probably going to be about as slow as it is now in D3.
For those who don't remember or weren't there for Diablo 3's trailers/release anticipation cycle, this is what 3clipse was talking about.
Anything that they say now can be changed a half dozen times in the next 4-5 years until we actually get a date, and then an additional 3-4 times as that date is pushed back, and then again through post game patches.
Aside from "Barbarian, Druid, Wizard", pretty much everything else seems up in the air, including "...and two other classes we haven't decided on yet".
Modern WoW has been informed way more by Diablo 3 than Diablo 3 has been by WoW.
Also, +1 to what what schuss said about every minute of D3 play contributing to progress in some way. Man, that's a good thing when sometimes you only have the time for a 10-minute rift. Even those 10 minutes provide forward progress.
Launch D3 was a continuation of the frustrating mess that was endgame D2X
But it seemed like a reasonable path for later with the new season, even if it might be a bit slower because of the lack of starter stuff. I kind of understand using the challenge rift to get a headstart?
It seems like you just make your ladder character, then do the challenge rift, and when you log back into your challenge character afterward, it'll have that box?
I have a question though, for clarification. Actually probably more than one.
With that starter stuff, is it a good idea on any class to do some shard gambling for a legendary? or just like barb (and necro?), and the other classes you want to wait some levels? I've seen the d3planner site with the lists you can sort and stuff; do you basically want to wait till the minimum level of a legendary you want, then get that level and start gambling? And with that, I am not totally clear on how using the upgrade rare option of the cube works to get legendaries, and how to know what legendary to expect. A few videos I watched where the guy suggested doing that, he seemed to know exactly what he was going to get and that didn't make a lot of sense to me.
Also what's the best way to get set gear? I am to understand there are set dungeons or something now? But it doesn't seem like they exist outside of a seasonal character? I got a piece of a set on my barb last night in a rift and (I don't remember what it was off hand) and the 6 piece was like +20k% damage to several abilities and that is mighty appealing! I just don't know the best way to go about looking for them, since whatever the set dungeons are, don't seem to be enabled.
And with the starter stuff, lets say you use your shards to get a good item out of the gate. Do you want to use it, or are you intended to just go use it in the cube and have it be a base ability? one video I watched on a demon hunter mentioned a bow and a quiver that are a super powerful combo, but can you use both those in the cube? Is a quiver considered "armor"?
Lastly, I guess this is entirely subjective, but what class would be good for starting fresh here? I just played a necro and barb (up to GR20 just to see if I could do it; seemed reasonable, but again, I relied on access to gems and crafting stuff I won't have immediately) so I'm up to speed on them, but in the past I have leveled everything to 70 at some point or another, even if I haven't played them in years. It sounds like Crusader is getting some pretty rad buffs, or at least a super nice set that could make them pretty powerful? And necros seem like they're generally top tier and also pretty soloable? But apparently their gimmie set isn't fantastic? I remember quite liking Crusader, at least I felt like it was better at doing what barbs should have been able to do, but this was a long long time ago and I imagine balance/gear changes since then have altered that. I did really enjoy leveling barb, and in the past I never made it above 40 because I just got so bored with it, so that's something. WD was always eh to me, I always would have rathered play Necro (and did eventually! though I really miss the huge army of skeles from D2). Wizard I have zero recollection of, for better or worse. I also remember liking DH more than I expected, but the way I played (I wanna say a lot of turrets? It's been years and years) doesn't seem viable now?
A problem I've always had with Diablo games is how I like playing virtually never works with high end end-game stuff. I happily played through the campaign on my necro doing more than fine but then just couldn't get far in rifts; but I changed out a couple things based on some info I looked up after I got a weapon that increased bone spear damage and that just opened up what I could do immensely. I went from doing 200k/hit with anything to doing 20m with bone spears only changing one skill and getting one weapon. I watched a video last night of a crusader setup using the new set and a lot of other stuff trying to figure out the "best" push build in s19 and it was doing 10's of billions of damage a hit, at least, and that was pretty nuts!
Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be? Guides that show leveling/starter builds are things that more resemble the way I play, and the progression stuff is usually where it goes way off course, and feels really awkward. But after testing something with Necro the other night, I realized very quickly when a build says certain gear is required, it usually means required, and the build will just straight up not work otherwise (I don't remember what it was, but there was no earner, and I didn't even have a way to break boxes or doors).
Anyway I'm rambling. So yeah, starting shard gambling. Is there a rule of thumb? Are there guides (maybe not videos, something I can just read and have up) for different classes on what to gamble for when? Set gear, just run rifts? Or are the set dungeons easy to understand? Do you cube your early legendaries or just use them normally? What class this season comes with a good set, that will be good for getting started for the season as a whole? I'm up to speed on Necro/Barb but then again, I just played Necro/Barb and leveling them immediately again is...eh? I guess maybe a better question would be, what is a good class that can bring themselves up well, when you don't have a stash full of gems and such to rely on?
EDIT: Oh, is there a checklist or anything for pets/wings that you can get in-game? These weren't a thing (well, they were, just individual items you had to activate, and there were only a small small handful) last time I played, but apparently there are lots now. I guess there's a certain goblin type that can drop pets? I did get one from one yesterday, wasn't expecting that. Later ran into a section of a rift that had about a dozen goblins in one place, but none the pet type apparently.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Man that is a lot.
So start here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/e02nfx/deadsets_all_characters_cheat_sheet_endgame_guide/
Yes, I know. Never go on reddit never go on reddit. There is good info on reddit.
That guide, I think, answers a lot of your questions. IE: What you should gamble on for shards to start, what starting builds look like, etc.]
To address some of your other observations.
Leveling from 1 to 70, you are correct. Anything goes, use the skills you like, it doesn't matter.
Progression post 70, really is a different type of game. Your build is ultimately going to be defined by sets and legendary items. So, hopefully, the class and skills you like best have sets an items that support them. If not, then you are out of luck and those skills are not really viable for a lot of the post 70 game.
In terms of the more, broad "what class is best for starting fresh." I mean, there are so many variables here, but really you should just play the class you enjoy most.
All of the classes have viable builds for everything.
You could come at it from another direction, but this requires more interaction. What are your favorite skills? You talk about your play patterns falling off at the high end. So tell us your favorite skills, and we can tell you if there is a build that supports them.
D3: HexDex#1281, PSN: DireOtter, Live: DireOtter
He doesn't even waffle a lot like most YouTubers, so things are pretty on point
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
Way back when, afaik, there was no real viable path to using pets end-game for WD. I remember hitting 60 and just kind of...that was that! They did too low damage to do higher difficulties and either there weren't any legendaries that really benefited pets, or they were too rare.
Now though getting legendaries is way more accessible and there seems to be a much wider range of options for pets.
Looking at the list of gifts for S19 it looks like the set the Necro comes with actually does buff your pets, so that is appealing. But when I watched the Bluddshed video on starting a necro this season, he didn't sound terribly enamored with the set and seemed to basically say that for progression in rifts and difficulties you'll have to go a different direction, which led me to believe that maybe it's still the case where pets simply can't really compete without a lot of specific gear and even still not so much. Even then though, I don't see myself trying to push to GR 150 or something, I just want to be able to play when I want to play (typically solo) and still make progress, level gems, set up alts, etc.
I just don't like playing a pet class and not using pets. I know that even back in D2 Necro pets really weren't even viable for long either and that's one of the reasons I never played much of the hell stuff. I just hated on WD getting to 60/70 then having to put my pets away because they really didn't do much, and when they did it was almost always something where they just became a spell (i.e. skele's into blight bombs on Necro) and meh. I like the more commander-y feeling of a pet class, and would love a setup where I was just supporting my pets. Which is how I play while leveling.
Maybe what I'll do, if I don't succumb to the temptation of looking badass with a Crusader, is do Necro and hope I can upgrade to a bloodtide blade out of the gate
EDIT: Actually to save myself frustration, to do the cube upgrade thing, you need the exact same type of gear, right? So for a 2h scythe I need a 70 2h scythe? It isn't totally random like bloodshards where you are just choosing "2h weapon" and hope it's something resembling what you wanted?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Rathma, and any set really, is a perfectly capable of playing 99% of the game. YouTube guides are very helpful, especially Bluddshed’s as mentioned, but exist in that weird space where the streamers are trying to talk to both new players and 5000-hour players at the same time. For the purposes of returning to the game, what sets can do GR120 vs GR140 is not really worth worrying about, as literally everything is more than capable of completing the seasonal objectives.
TLDR- play what is/looks fun, and it will be fun
Is that something that is also in-game? When I read the news thing on the d3 site about the new season and the stuff you can earn, I walked away thinking that after you finished the campaign you'd have your whole set, but apparently there's a whole checklist of things.
Disclosure, the last time I played in a season was when the necro came out and even then only made it to 40ish and didn't get into any of the details, and prior to that was probably season 1 or 2 when there was just the transmog things I think?
Anyway gonna make my character shortly and see what the heck this challenge rift thing even is.
EDIT: Oh yeah it's there on the character select screen. Season Journey. Interesting. Wonder if it's in-game.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Think I'll hang onto that one! Seems like there's plenty of materials to make more.
It is nuts the 1st achievements that keep popping up. first hardcore to solo a GR45, 4 hours in? :rotate:
EDIT: I accidentally'd up to level 14 just getting to the stupid cube. which doesn't seem impressive when people are already clearing level 45 rifts, but that felt pretty fast for me! I think I was just supposed to run through but there were just all the rats and bugs. I should probably upgrade my gear.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
However! I was about to extract it and noticed it was an Ancient item and has craaaazy stats.
Should I still extract it, or maybe I want to hang onto it? Thoughts?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Can you contact Blizzard to see if they can fix it on their side?
Steam: betsuni7
Hit 70, decided to use the cube to try to upgrade another scythe (wanted the death nova one) and got the bone spear one.
Bone spear went from doing 500k or so to 50 million by extracting that affix and putting on my cube. :rotate:
i'm sure this isn't new info for most people but it's blowing my mind.
EDIT: The zone that keeps shifting location you're running through is pretty rad. Sometimes the elites shifting to worse nasties isn't so rad!
EDIT2: I don't think it was cheap but getting the double death's breath set was definitely worth it.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Also if you want to do fun stuff with pets, have a look at some of Necro's builds like the Singularity build where you summon SUPAH SKELETONS to smite your foes. You can also do good stuff with things like Tasker and Theo, or stacking the crap out of thorns and then taking aberant animator to make for some very, very pointy golems and skeleton buddies
Also, booo - rolled all my shards at the start and got zero legendaries to help make my monk journey smooth =(
Otoh, the first rift boss i tookd own gave me a rpetty decent leorics!
...now if i can just find some rubies...
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
D3: HexDex#1281, PSN: DireOtter, Live: DireOtter
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Good news / bad news: my joining issue is “fixed”, but it seems to actually be effecting everyone off and on. So occasionally have to do some relog/remake/reinvite shenanigans, it’s not 100% clear.
This is a good game, y'all.