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This Diablo thread is like 800x600, bleh

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Posts

  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Being bored until the release of Psychonauts 2 and Tales of Arise, I decided to roll a HC seasonal toon for shits and giggles.

    My lady Wiz has turned into my best HC run in D3. Up to Paragon 215, solo'd up to GR65 got full sets of Vyr's and Firebird with at least a couple of ancients with both, a nicely rolled Compass Rose and Traveler's Pledge and over 50 things cubed. Only have 11 or 12 tasks left to finish out the seasonal challenges as well as I really want that pet.

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  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Sorry to double post, but the funniest thing is I havent got a single ephemeral for wizard. Got 2 of the for 3 barb, a monk staff, and a crusader flail. I also still haven't got a gem of ease so I can jumpstart another class and make use of the metric fuckton of crafting mats and blood shards I've been sitting on.

    No matter where you go...there you are.
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  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    el_vicio wrote: »
    The D2R beta may have caused me to fire up classic D2 and level an Amazon to 40.
    Maybe.
    Can't confirm or deny.

    The D2 mod scene is active and very fun. ProjectDiablo 2 is worth a look. It is a rebalance with added end game. Then there is like the Median. Which is a complete overhaul with new skills, full new end game etc.

    Yeah I'm trying not to dive too deeply before the D2R launch. I'm already a little apprehensive wrt saves carrying over - and my modded infinite shared stash which will not AT ALL fit into D2R's

    That's actually something that bothers me, that I can't have a complete armory if the drops allow it unless I create 50 mules or so. I think that's a QOL upgrade that seems superobvious? Weird.

    ouxsemmi8rm9.png

  • NogginNoggin Registered User regular
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/diablo-ii-resurrected-ladder-patch-update/41016

    Ladder-only runewords, uniques, and cube recipes are no longer exclusive to ladder.

    And in comments, killing the cow king no longer locks you out of cows.

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Noggin wrote: »
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/diablo-ii-resurrected-ladder-patch-update/41016

    Ladder-only runewords, uniques, and cube recipes are no longer exclusive to ladder.

    And in comments, killing the cow king no longer locks you out of cows.
    Those are two great changes, especially the cow level one. That was always such a terrible design decision in D2.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    now shrink every item to 2x1

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  • TefTef Registered User regular
    hey I got back into D3, any chance I could get back into the clan? are folks still playing? My tag is Teffy#11271

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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    Man, the remake is just astoundingly pretty. I'm so sad I have to wait another month for the full thing, but I had to try out the open beta and it's gorgeous.

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  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    another thing that I could do without, but would probably be too much of a change, is the shared lootdrop and the ensuing behavior in pub games

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    el_vicio wrote: »
    another thing that I could do without, but would probably be too much of a change, is the shared lootdrop and the ensuing behavior in pub games

    Yeah given all the effort put into the visuals, this is the kind of QoL stuff I wanted to see alongside it. Just sand off the grating edges that are holding back more ways to enjoy the same old content.

    fortyFencingsaxHexDex
  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    That change would be the only thing to get me to even touch multiplayer. The way people race through the acts and whoever clicks the fastest on the loot wins was never fun to me.

    I'll be over here in /players 8 SP land, thankyouverymuch

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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    The developer fascination with online multiplayer specifically designed to turn people into anonymous dickwads has always mystified me. Just a bunch of toxic nerds thinking, "What would I like to do in a game with strangers and no consequences?"
    Kind of like how Myst and Riven are designed purely to piss off the player

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    Ya know I get the feeling that when original D2 was designed, they weren't specifically designing it to turn people into anonymous dickwads at all. It came out 21 years ago and defined an entire genre -- I think ideas have evolved and shared loot stuff is drastically more common than it was in 2000. The idea that all online communities gravitate towards horrible behavior wasn't even prevalent at that time -- we learned that in part from player behavior in Diablo 2.

    I'd be cool with personal loot too (I avoid public games like the plague outside of baal runs and such for just that reason), don't get me wrong, but that's some pretty drastic hyperbole all around.

    Fiatil on
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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Griefing people in online multiplayer modes was abundant in all games of that time period. Some games tried to fight against it but "Another player kills you and takes your stuff" was touted as the highpoint of interactive gaming achievements for over a decade

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    Diablo 2 doesn't even feature "another player kills you and takes your stuff" in any real way. Theoretically they can portal back to down, disband party, turn on PvP mode, come back, and then kill you before you loot some drops, but that takes a hell of a lot to pull off (you would have to be AFK and not trying to loot stuff for it to work -- you don't drop items on death in D2) and is a specific form of griefing the developers probably didn't anticipate.

    I'm saying we learned a lot about online player behavior from Diablo 2 and similar games -- you're taking 21 years of knowledge and assuming the developers knew that at the time. There were almost no similar games for the developers of diablo 2 to look towards as you're able to today. Hell, "another player kills you and takes your stuff" is drastically more prevalent in 2021 game design with the ridiculous variety of survival games that feature that than it was in 2000 -- you're talking about a handful of exploits in old MMOs and specifically designed opt-in PvP servers.

    Fiatil on
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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    el_vicio wrote: »
    That change would be the only thing to get me to even touch multiplayer. The way people race through the acts and whoever clicks the fastest on the loot wins was never fun to me.

    I'll be over here in /players 8 SP land, thankyouverymuch

    carbot voice tp tp send tp
    tp tp tp tp tp

    see317 on
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  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    el_vicio wrote: »
    That change would be the only thing to get me to even touch multiplayer. The way people race through the acts and whoever clicks the fastest on the loot wins was never fun to me.

    I'll be over here in /players 8 SP land, thankyouverymuch

    carbot voice tp tp send tp
    tp tp tp tp tp

    *Barbarian leaps into space*

    ouxsemmi8rm9.png

    BlackDragon480forty
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    Ya know I get the feeling that when original D2 was designed, they weren't specifically designing it to turn people into anonymous dickwads at all. It came out 21 years ago and defined an entire genre -- I think ideas have evolved and shared loot stuff is drastically more common than it was in 2000. The idea that all online communities gravitate towards horrible behavior wasn't even prevalent at that time -- we learned that in part from player behavior in Diablo 2.

    I'd be cool with personal loot too (I avoid public games like the plague outside of baal runs and such for just that reason), don't get me wrong, but that's some pretty drastic hyperbole all around.

    You talk as if Diablo 2 introduced multiplayer interactions, when numerous games like Ultima Online, Everquest, Asherons Call, etc, and people had been twats about loot and PK'ing for a couple years before D2 was released.

    And regardless, the point isn't whether or not more could have been done in 2000 to make aspects of D2's multiplayer not so shitty, but whether or not, 21 years later, there's a good reason to not have done something for a remaster. There's plenty of ways D2:R could have been altered that wouldn't have changed the fundamental gameplay experience, while vastly improving the player experience. Having a shitty click first loot system in 2021 just because supposedly they didn't know better in 2000, is, at best, lazy. Literally no ones play experience of D2:R will be improved because they didn't click loot fast enough, or they did and took something from someone else.

    There are better options today, and it's pretty silly that they didn't even attempt to resolve that aspect of D2.

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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    Fiatil wrote: »
    Ya know I get the feeling that when original D2 was designed, they weren't specifically designing it to turn people into anonymous dickwads at all. It came out 21 years ago and defined an entire genre -- I think ideas have evolved and shared loot stuff is drastically more common than it was in 2000. The idea that all online communities gravitate towards horrible behavior wasn't even prevalent at that time -- we learned that in part from player behavior in Diablo 2.

    I'd be cool with personal loot too (I avoid public games like the plague outside of baal runs and such for just that reason), don't get me wrong, but that's some pretty drastic hyperbole all around.

    You talk as if Diablo 2 introduced multiplayer interactions, when numerous games like Ultima Online, Everquest, Asherons Call, etc, and people had been twats about loot and PK'ing for a couple years before D2 was released
    And regardless, the point isn't whether or not more could have been done in 2000 to make aspects of D2's multiplayer not so shitty, but whether or not, 21 years later, there's a good reason to not have done something for a remaster. There's plenty of ways D2:R could have been altered that wouldn't have changed the fundamental gameplay experience, while vastly improving the player experience. Having a shitty click first loot system in 2021 just because supposedly they didn't know better in 2000, is, at best, lazy. Literally no ones play experience of D2:R will be improved because they didn't click loot fast enough, or they did and took something from someone else.

    There are better options today, and it's pretty silly that they didn't even attempt to resolve that aspect of D2.

    Nah, I know it didn't invent them. If you look at my follow up post I acknowledged MMOs of past and their PvP servers in particular. There's a reason ARPGs were just called "Diablo-likes" for 10 years after Diablo 2 though -- it created the genre, and isn't a 1:1 comparison with MMOs.

    I was responding to a post claiming that Diablo 2 was specifically designed to turn players into "anonymous dickwads", and that the developers are toxic nerds. Diablo 2 isn't some crazy grief-fest -- yeah, public games can get dumb. But there's not full corpse looting and the worst thing you're looking at is getting PvP killed and losing the gold you're carrying, or having some guy click really fast on an item. I think it's really lame to insinuate the original devs are like, hostile to players because of that. It's assuming ill intent when I just don't think it existed.

    When you get into changing loot, you are changing what Diablo 2 is to a lot of people. I would prefer some personal loot stuff, but it's going to change the feel of the game and/or require full scale rebalancing (a dice roll resulting in you seeing 1/8 as much loot in an 8 man game is going to feel weird to original D2 players, and if you get into custom loot you're completely rebalancing the loot tables).

    The studio remastering D2 did an amazing job with the graphics! I don't know that qualifies them to fully rebalance the game in the same way; a lot of the original D2 community really loves Diablo 2, and it's not really fair to them to leave them out of a remaster.

    I fully support a separate ladder eventually with a bunch of QoL changes and stuff, but it's risky and will divide the community particularly if it's not executed well. Let the original D2 lovers play the game they loved with fancy graphics; stop trying to take that experience away from them. If the devs want to make something else (similar to mods for D2), that's great too! But it's substantially riskier territory given how divisive Diablo 3 was to the Diablo 2 community, and Blizzard's not very good recent trackrecord.

    A lot of people want this, whether you personally do or not. That's okay! It's not lazy to make a really pretty remaster of a cherished classic. The game has been advertised as a straight remake for a really long time, and they're delivering on that. If they want to get fancy with it later (while leaving an option for the original gameplay) that's cool too.

    You act like making changes to a cherished classic is super easy. It's just not -- the game defined a genre, and lots of people really do just want Diablo 2 but pretty. There is no ARPG today that is just Diablo 2 but better -- if there were, no one would care about this game.

    Fiatil on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    As much as I'd rather have personal loot rather than the shared ninjaloot fuckfest of D2, I can sympathize with why the developers didn't end up doing that in D2R, which was meant to be a straightforward graphical remaster with minimal fundamental changes.

    I think back to the WoW team's lengthy resistance to creating WoW Classic. "You think you want that old messy shit, but you don't." They finally got badgered into it, did all the work to make it a thing and said "OK, here's your Vanilla. Enjoy it, warts and all!" And apparently people did! I mean, some amount of people. I never stepped foot in it because I still remember what Vanilla was like and had no interest. And of course you had a good number of the people who picked it up dip out after a few weeks because you can't actually time travel people back to how they felt 15 years ago. But I guess there is still a significant population that is enjoying that experience for whatever reason. As much as some people might have preferred some modern conveniences like Dungeon Finder, personal loot, no weapon/defense skills, etc. to be put in, they didn't because it would have invariably led to a grognard backlash about all the "modern WoW shit ruining the Classic experience."

    Hell, the D2R team probably had to carefully discuss and weigh each of the little improvements they did put on that seem universally good to me against the potential backlash from the purists. "Ugh, they totally WoW'd/D3'd Diablo 2."

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  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    Yeah it's a tough line to walk for sure. I'm curious how things will shake out post release, I can see more QoL options (optional maybe?) being patched in later

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  • TheflyingassTheflyingass Registered User regular
    People wanted D2 remastered to function and scale better on modern hardware (and a nice modern rendering layer). Changing the game to be more modern risks alienating the crowd you made the remaster for, in order to appease a crowd very likely to dismiss it because "there are better options elsewhere". Why change D2 when D4 will be the game for those people?

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  • hushhush Registered User regular
    If it's all just a bunch of checkboxes the way that auto gold pickup is, I just find it very hard to see a reason not to do it - you want that pure experience, don't check the boxes - you want to play a 20 year old game with some qol updates, also cool.

    This is the future. This is what we built. This is what we wanted. It must have been. Because we all had the fucking choice, didn't we? It is only our money that allows commercial culture to flower. If we didn't want to live like this, we could have changed it at any time, by not fucking paying for it.

    So let's celebrate by all going out and buying the same burger. -transmet
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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    I don't see anyone actually arguing for the inconveniences as something they want. It's always arguing on behalf of someone else's supposed interest.

    Most people are here for the nostalgic content, the skill spam, fast runs and the cool tradeable loot. For those who like consensual dueling this is also the best the series has ever been. When grognards talk about Diablo 2 being such a better game than whatever other ARPG these are things most cited, not the limited inventory bursting with charms or the race to TK loot from each other or trying to exploit TPs while flagging hostile. Its quite reductive if you think most D2 fans who didn't click with DIablo 3 are missing all that stupid bullshit rather than the actual strengths of D2 that they readily enumerate.

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    That's definitely a fair point. Whenever I say I would prefer personal loot, I'm saying I prefer it assuming the developers can pull off an improved system. I don't know that this studio that specializes in technical remasters has the skills to actually do any kind of rebalancing of Diablo 2 though. Modern Blizzard seems wholly incapable of understanding what makes it work in general; the more they change the more they risk screwing it up. I'm good with acknowledging that and giving us a beautiful version of an old game, warts and all. There's something to be said about just capturing the full feel, without little bits of your brain firing off "huh, I don't remember that and I'm not sure I agree with the change". WoW classic keeps getting brought up for that reason -- I don't like most of the systems in that game, but they went for the 100% whole vision because there are people that like even the finnickey janky parts of it because of their nostalgia. Ultimately, yeah, there are some people that want to PvP murder relatively unsuspecting randoms in public games. I think it's just as dumb as corpse camping in WoW, but it's part of an old nostalgic game whether I enjoy it or not (and yeah, despite disagreeing with it I've played on private servers that try to mess with that "gameplay" and it always causes controversy). D2 at least lets you avoid it with passworded games. It's not as simple as just offering checkboxes for most of the systems being talked about unless you're referring to singleplayer only -- historically most people playing D2 do it on the unified multiplayer server with a shared economy.

    For example, we have mods like Path of Diablo that exist for D2. It's widely known, free, and easily accessible. It includes some QoL features being asked for here -- a distinct charm inventory, a bigger personal inventory, and buffs to certain skills. Ultimately, it has a drastically smaller online player base than unmodded D2 does. I find myself playing unmodded D2 more because it has more people to play with despite me liking the changes in PoD -- the community still plays that classic version of the game in drastically higher numbers despite having a free alternative with QoL features.

    Ultimately I like the charm of not messing with a classic, despite being open to creating like a "Ladder +" mode with more far reaching QoL/balance stuff if they feel like it.

    Fiatil on
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  • RussadRussad MARegistered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    Diablo 2 doesn't even feature "another player kills you and takes your stuff" in any real way. Theoretically they can portal back to down, disband party, turn on PvP mode, come back, and then kill you before you loot some drops, but that takes a hell of a lot to pull off (you would have to be AFK and not trying to loot stuff for it to work -- you don't drop items on death in D2) and is a specific form of griefing the developers probably didn't anticipate.

    It was patched out, but tricking people into corpse popping was pretty prevalent back in the day. Even aside from all of the "this is how you dupe" scams, there were people who would just drop a bunch of white items on your corpse so you'd pick them up while trying to get your body, then they'd kill you.

  • Forever ZefiroForever Zefiro cloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered User regular
    In D1, if a player killed a player, simply an ear would drop, so people would trick randos into taking their TP which would drop them in the middle of monsters to kill them. Death by monster dropped all the items you were using.

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  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    I played a half hour of the open beta and hooboy did I forget how boring and slow the early part of D2 is

    And how much I totally dislike the skill and stat system

    But the fresh coat of paint really does make it look like I remember it which is neat but probably not neat enough to buy it

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    In D1, if a player killed a player, simply an ear would drop, so people would trick randos into taking their TP which would drop them in the middle of monsters to kill them. Death by monster dropped all the items you were using.
    Yes, D1 was a very 1996/1997 game.

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  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    Gamespot did the thing

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    OK this is a 20 year old game but I guess I'll spoil this for newcomers anyway. Comments on the video that link to the ending of the game.
    As a purist I felt slightly triggered at 1:00 when the apparition of Tyreal appeared. In the original its clearly a bit off from how Tyreal should look, but I thought that was the point. Like Baal could not produce a 100% illusion of the angel, and had to rely on the human's stupidity to get the rest of the way there. (Isn't his current form full of tendrils anyway? So its just the light highlighting his natural demonic features?)

    There's also Baal indulging Marius and his silly story and then insisting that soulstone be handed over before he offs Marius. It could be just because Baal likes to toy with his prey, but I wonder if he needed it handed over, like he was somehow threatened by it while still in Marius possession, or at least that it could aid Marius in escaping. It would go along with that same theme of Marius having some responsibility for the bad choices that led to his doom.

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    The D2 cinematics were amazing for their time, but the new ones are a welcome improvement. The people, in particular, are a lot less offputting.

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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Just watching the first two minutes the remaster cuts all the dramatic lighting, shot and character movements

    Marius has better textures but the scene is now barren of visual stimuli

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  • nwrabenwrabe Insidious Squid Registered User regular
    OK this is a 20 year old game but I guess I'll spoil this for newcomers anyway. Comments on the video that link to the ending of the game.
    As a purist I felt slightly triggered at 1:00 when the apparition of Tyreal appeared. In the original its clearly a bit off from how Tyreal should look, but I thought that was the point. Like Baal could not produce a 100% illusion of the angel, and had to rely on the human's stupidity to get the rest of the way there. (Isn't his current form full of tendrils anyway? So its just the light highlighting his natural demonic features?)

    There's also Baal indulging Marius and his silly story and then insisting that soulstone be handed over before he offs Marius. It could be just because Baal likes to toy with his prey, but I wonder if he needed it handed over, like he was somehow threatened by it while still in Marius possession, or at least that it could aid Marius in escaping. It would go along with that same theme of Marius having some responsibility for the bad choices that led to his doom.
    I never interpreted “Tyreal” being an illusion, but rather a broken mind filling in the gaps when it sees a cloaked figure, backlit and glowing.

    Baal shows up, Marius assumes he’s an ally and starts spilling the beans. At some point in the rambling Baal realizes he can just ask for the stone and having Marius realize what he’s done will hurt way more than just killing him and taking it. They are Evil, after all.

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  • PriscaPrisca Registered User regular
    When it comes levelling up my character STATS; I always tend to focus on building up my class' strengths and neglecting their weakness.

    For example, always prioritizing strength and dexterity for Barbarian over the rest. However, I think such builds tends to leads to a "glass cannon"... is there a better universal rule for STATS?

  • NogginNoggin Registered User regular
    edited August 2021
    Str/Dex: even less than you need for your gear. Supplement with charms.

    Energy: 0.

    Vitality: ALL.

    Super deep. Much engaging.

    More seriously, you don’t have to do it that way. That mostly came out of the dueling scene. For leveling I think I usually did 2str 2dex 1vit per level, or less dex if I was block capped or not blocking.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Wait so primary stat does not help dps in D2? It's been a very long time.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    I think it helps a small amount, not enough to matter. pumping vit was the standard stat spread, I had a staff barb once who only needed like 70 strength to equip his staff so I had like 400 vitality

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  • PriscaPrisca Registered User regular
    Thanks for all the answers so far ~ I should clarify I'm referring to proper STATS distribution in Diablo II.

    Sometimes, I like to keep everything balanced ~ and try to distribute enough to keep all STATS even, but I think that is inefficient to have a balanced build.

  • crimsoncoyotecrimsoncoyote Registered User regular
    The vast majority of your damage comes from skills (and gear), not from your stats.

    You'll want to pump vit anyway for the stamina early on, and the health helps especially as everything starts to hit harder and you need to be able to take some hits here and there. Resists will only take you so far (my 25 paladin has 60-75 in each resist and can still take a beating if I'm not careful).

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This discussion has been closed.