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[Incels] - Still a Thing

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Posts

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    I think misogyny develops with very little cultural influence as a result of externalization of platonic and romantic shortcomings. Imagine being annoyed on Valentine's day and by public displays of affection, then multiply that by 1000% over several years, then fermenting that in isolation until you give up all semblance of moral standard.

    I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.

    They might, but it's so much easier getting out when they're not in the crab bucket, getting pulled down every time they might make a move out

    The crab bucket is social isolation; the hate community is a boiling pot. These people tend to disappear when they're not talking, sometimes permanently

    The incel communities on the internet actively dis-encourage stopping being an incel. There's other contributing factors, to being or becoming one, but if they don't find like-minded individuals for a feedback loop, many people snap out of it at some point.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    I think misogyny develops with very little cultural influence as a result of externalization of platonic and romantic shortcomings. Imagine being annoyed on Valentine's day and by public displays of affection, then multiply that by 1000% over several years, then fermenting that in isolation until you give up all semblance of moral standard.

    I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.

    They might, but it's so much easier getting out when they're not in the crab bucket, getting pulled down every time they might make a move out

    The crab bucket is social isolation; the hate community is a boiling pot. These people tend to disappear when they're not talking, sometimes permanently

    The incel communities on the internet actively dis-encourage stopping being an incel. There's other contributing factors, to being or becoming one, but if they don't find like-minded individuals for a feedback loop, many people snap out of it at some point.

    *pops head up, looks around, scurries back to hidey-hole*

    3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    I think misogyny develops with very little cultural influence as a result of externalization of platonic and romantic shortcomings. Imagine being annoyed on Valentine's day and by public displays of affection, then multiply that by 1000% over several years, then fermenting that in isolation until you give up all semblance of moral standard.

    I know that people will functionally become incels whether or not they encounter this community. I guarantee that this will happen.

    They might, but it's so much easier getting out when they're not in the crab bucket, getting pulled down every time they might make a move out

    The crab bucket is social isolation; the hate community is a boiling pot. These people tend to disappear when they're not talking, sometimes permanently

    The incel communities on the internet actively dis-encourage stopping being an incel. There's other contributing factors, to being or becoming one, but if they don't find like-minded individuals for a feedback loop, many people snap out of it at some point.

    I believe that this particular sort of misanthropy is endemic to human nature and exacerbated by failing to fulfill social needs. Frustrations about unmet emotional needs do not require an echo chamber to amplify and become malignant (though that doesn't help).

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Its radicalization. Even if the orgianal issues were ended that doesn't change that now they are riled up and have someone to blame who isnt them. Most people dont deradicalize on their own. Especially if they have a group of "friends" who continue to tell them that theres nothing wrong with them and its everyone else's fault.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    On the contrary, reading the thread the folks saying that we don't owe incels endless empathy are the only people in here offering solutions. Deplatforming, gun control, proper screening, and mental health resources available to incels when they actually choose to avail themselves of it.

    Others are just saying "we need to better understand these people" - and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. Don't we already understand pretty clearly where these people are coming from? It's being discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Honestly, the "we need to better understand and help these people" is starting to read like an empty academic stalling mechanism. I could be wrong and I'm willing to cop to that if someone can start articulating what better understanding means with some real practical means of executing on that.

    Do you think there's a single person in this thread who isn't in favour of deplatforming, gun control, and better mental health resources? Were you under the impression, when you wrote this post, that this was some kind of war council which, when concluded, would ride forth to ensure those things happen? Because it is, in fact, a discussion forum, and even if it were filled with nothing but PHDs in the field of mental health we would still not be able to magically find the perfect solution to the problem of incels. You can keep you accusations of "stalling" and other bad faith horseshit to yourself, in the future, it's vapid, contentless nonsense that doesn't further the conversation in any meaningful sense.

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    On the contrary, reading the thread the folks saying that we don't owe incels endless empathy are the only people in here offering solutions. Deplatforming, gun control, proper screening, and mental health resources available to incels when they actually choose to avail themselves of it.

    Others are just saying "we need to better understand these people" - and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. Don't we already understand pretty clearly where these people are coming from? It's being discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Honestly, the "we need to better understand and help these people" is starting to read like an empty academic stalling mechanism. I could be wrong and I'm willing to cop to that if someone can start articulating what better understanding means with some real practical means of executing on that.

    Do you think there's a single person in this thread who isn't in favour of deplatforming, gun control, and better mental health resources? Were you under the impression, when you wrote this post, that this was some kind of war council which, when concluded, would ride forth to ensure those things happen? Because it is, in fact, a discussion forum, and even if it were filled with nothing but PHDs in the field of mental health we would still not be able to magically find the perfect solution to the problem of incels. You can keep you accusations of "stalling" and other bad faith horseshit to yourself, in the future, it's vapid, contentless nonsense that doesn't further the conversation in any meaningful sense.

    Whoa, my post was in direct response to someone asking for clear propositions on what can be done. I'm not trying to delegitimize any side here as I'm 100% all for the debate. What I was asking was what "better understanding incels" means in this context as all of the options put on the table so far have been about just removing their ability to engage. When I say "stalling" I'm not using it in an accusatory way, I mean it in the sense that endlessly looking at a situation to understand it from a purely academic perspective cannot be the priority when people are actively being victimized by said group. Understanding is definitely important but it doesn't take priority over actually putting the fire out.

    I'm not sure what you thought I was trying to articulate in my post but it definitely wasn't what you took away from it. Sorry if it came off completely wrong.

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    We're not policymakers but can describe what would be a good policy should we recognize it. Talk about understanding is more in a personal vein, where the takeaway is how to deal with this stuff yourself. There won't be an "option on the table" for that since it's more about informing your individual frame of mind and situation. So that part will be abstract and appear like stalling because there are no concrete objectives.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    That was very gracious of you, in turn I apologize for my uncharitable reading of your post.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    So here's another side time ponder: if a parent discovers their son is spouting incel rhetoric, what can they do to help their child? Obviously therapy, but what other steps can a parent take? Telling them they are no longer allowed to visit incel websites, and setting up monitoring tools to make sure that happens? Cutting off internet entirely if the edict is not obeyed? There does not seem to be any way for a parent to help socialize a teen boy that I can think of.

    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • LoisLaneLoisLane Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    So here's another side time ponder: if a parent discovers their son is spouting incel rhetoric, what can they do to help their child? Obviously therapy, but what other steps can a parent take? Telling them they are no longer allowed to visit incel websites, and setting up monitoring tools to make sure that happens? Cutting off internet entirely if the edict is not obeyed? There does not seem to be any way for a parent to help socialize a teen boy that I can think of.

    I think any parent should be very careful when approaching a child who has been radicalized. An alt-right member killed his dad just six months ago for no reason. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/lane-davis-ralph-retort-seattle4truth-alt-right

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Parents don't know what to do about this situation. I was on a parenting group online with a parent of teenagers whose boys were getting into an alt-right scene online and none of us had any idea.

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Being better than your kid at internet security is a great way to train them to be better than you at internet security. I have a theory that this is why a lot of hackers are jerks

    One thing you can do is facilitate their relationships with a diverse group of people early. If they have long term friends that some online strangers are telling them to hate, who are they going to believe?

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Being better than your kid at internet security is a great way to train them to be better than you at internet security. I have a theory that this is why a lot of hackers are jerks

    My parents tried very hard to regulate the internet for me and my older brothers. My dad was a sysadmin, he knew what he was doing. It didn't matter. the internet is very much out of the bag, so to speak. Attempting to control it in this day and age seems like just another version of "abstinence is the only birth control you need". I think a better route is teaching the dangers/possibilities.

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    voting_machines.png

    Basically, if you're at a point that you have to monitor what people are doing online, you've already failed. It would be like trying to monitor what your kids are talking about to their friends.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Yeah I'm not a parent, so I hadn't thought about all the avenues there. What you're saying makes sense, but then how do you get your kid out of what is, essentially, a cult?

    Edit: Actually, this reminds me of one of the few uplifting things I ever saw an incel post, which was that when he explained what a Chad is to his grandmother, she started praising him by calling him "my big strong Chad" and the like and he ended up feeling really validated by that.

    Cambiata on
    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I don't think that's necessarily a sound argument. You have to give your kids freedom to pursue things which can lead to bad paths, having to then monitor where they went isn't some huge parental failure? That's how we learn?

    As far as reprogramming a potential incel child I think you have to just be understanding but firm. Explain to them the danger of the idealogy and then just be open to their emotional growth? Like I think we mostly believe that incels are created by toxic maculinity, and a key factor of that is turning your male children off emotionally, so tell them why its bad and then be a warm counter presence?

    Preacher on
    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I think if you let it get to the point where your child is already into incel or alt-right or whatever bullshit online, you are already in a lot of trouble. You need to be nipping that shit in the bud early or at the least be aware of the situation in the very early stages of it's development.

    On some level you need to be teaching them to not be vulnerable to this kind of thing.

    shryke on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I think if you let it get to the point where your child is already into incel or alt-right or whatever bullshit online, you are already in a lot of trouble. You need to be nipping that shit in the bud early or at the least be aware of the situation in the very early stages of it's development.

    On some level you need to be teaching them to not be vulnerable to this kind of thing.

    I don't think its like switch flipping or something, I recall watching a video on how people end up with anti female view points and it showed how you can do it on youtube by bad recommendations that lead you to poor reasoning. People can be brought back from that, people can change.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    shryke wrote: »
    I think if you let it get to the point where your child is already into incel or alt-right or whatever bullshit online, you are already in a lot of trouble. You need to be nipping that shit in the bud early or at the least be aware of the situation in the very early stages of it's development.

    On some level you need to be teaching them to not be vulnerable to this kind of thing.

    One of the things that has disturbed me about the alt-right movement is that it's liberal or feminist parents that are having their kids "rebel" by being alt-right. Which makes sense! This is how kids rebel, they push away what their parents taught them and go for something else because no parent is ever going to be perfect and perhaps by switching ideologies you explain to yourself why the parent is flawed in such-and-such a way. Maybe the answer it to teach your children how to question from an early age, along with the lessons about why misogyny is wrong and how the system makes us slaves. Thus if they do get into the ideology, they'll at least have the tools to question their way out of it eventually.

    Cambiata on
    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I feel it's also the people they grow up with and hang around with as teens have that large of a influence on them as well at the rebel against your parent's ideals
    As there was a lot of toxic stuff I just blew off as I don't want to hang around with these people anymore I got exposed to as a teen. I did not know how to steer them away from that at the time.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Vox published a a detailed longform piece on the history of the incel movement and how it became radicalized. It's worth reading through, because it discusses how what started as an inclusive community built by a queer woman became so poisoned by misogyny and hate - and in several cases, was done intentionally.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Seems like 4chan and Reddit were the chief culprits in radicalization. Unsurprising, given the general hands off nature of the site's overall administration.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    God the ages here make me so sad. Also the story of a kid inviting other kids to his party and they not showing up is like a serious fear of mine with my son.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Seems like 4chan and Reddit were the chief culprits in radicalization. Unsurprising, given the general hands off nature of the site's overall administration.

    The problem is more that, being so hands off, it opened the door for bad actors to step in and manipulate the community to further their own goals.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Seems like 4chan and Reddit were the chief culprits in radicalization. Unsurprising, given the general hands off nature of the site's overall administration.

    The problem is more that, being so hands off, it opened the door for bad actors to step in and manipulate the community to further their own goals.

    Yet another reason to praise the mods here. One of my mentors is working on a book about the inherent tensions of free speech/First Amendment. This forum is one of the places I reference where it is clear that constraints on some speech enables, rather than suppresses, a much larger body of speech.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular

    The Larson network encourages incels to take “the rapepill” — defined as “the understanding that for civilization to survive, femoids need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose is to obey, and bear the children of, supreme gentlemen such as ourselves.” (The term “supreme gentleman” is one Rodger used to describe himself.) One of Larson’s sites, called Raping Girls Is Fun, currently has nearly 500 forum members; I’ve seen its users swap stories about the women they say they’ve assaulted and tips on how to commit rape most effectively.

    Jesus fucking christ, I knew about Incels, but this one is a new one on me!

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Prevention and engagement are a good starting point to stop radicalization from occurring. I'm 33 and my parents got us internet dial up when I was 14. Zero oversight. No education. Thank God me and my brother made it out without damage.

    I can't imagine doing that to a kid today. It would be negligent.

    More than anything you've got to teach your kid how to consume content, validate the accuracy, and question the source. You can't say you wouldn't take your pre teen to an R rated movie but then admit you have no idea what they consume.

    And it's a huge pain in the ass! I hate having to take the time to moderate my kids content cause it all sucks! But, you still have to do it.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Seems like 4chan and Reddit were the chief culprits in radicalization. Unsurprising, given the general hands off nature of the site's overall administration.

    Reddit had to get a recent (as in goddamn last month) public shaming to get them to delete incest subreddits. And 4chan has long been weev's playground. Hey, turns out that letting impressionable teenagers interact with a terrorist causes issues.

    TryCatcher on
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    God the ages here make me so sad. Also the story of a kid inviting other kids to his party and they not showing up is like a serious fear of mine with my son.

    I'd think that knowing who your kid's friends are and getting to know the parents/guardians of those kids would go a long way to preventing this problem. Sucks for kids whose parents don't/can't make time for that, though...

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Seems like 4chan and Reddit were the chief culprits in radicalization. Unsurprising, given the general hands off nature of the site's overall administration.

    Reddit had to get a recent (as in goddamn last month) public shaming to get them to delete incest subreddits. And 4chan has long been weev's playground. Hey, turns out that letting impressionable teenagers interact with a terrorist causes issues.

    this is incest not incels? I'm not spending several minutes reading about incest so maybe I missed it?

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    God the ages here make me so sad. Also the story of a kid inviting other kids to his party and they not showing up is like a serious fear of mine with my son.

    I'd think that knowing who your kid's friends are and getting to know the parents/guardians of those kids would go a long way to preventing this problem. Sucks for kids whose parents don't/can't make time for that, though...

    I dunno, sometimes you can know your kids friends, know how to invite, and still have no one show up. I remember something like that happening when I was a kid. Hell my son at his age (3) has been invited to parties we've declined because I just don't want to go.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »

    The Larson network encourages incels to take “the rapepill” — defined as “the understanding that for civilization to survive, femoids need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose is to obey, and bear the children of, supreme gentlemen such as ourselves.” (The term “supreme gentleman” is one Rodger used to describe himself.) One of Larson’s sites, called Raping Girls Is Fun, currently has nearly 500 forum members; I’ve seen its users swap stories about the women they say they’ve assaulted and tips on how to commit rape most effectively.

    Jesus fucking christ, I knew about Incels, but this one is a new one on me!

    Yeah that's pretty de riguer for incels. They have extended fantasies wherein they rape their sisters. They have no women to whom they feel any sort of humanity towards, not even their mothers. (though they wouldn't rape their mothers since women over 30 are what they call "past the wall" and useless for all purposes, even sex).

    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Seems like 4chan and Reddit were the chief culprits in radicalization. Unsurprising, given the general hands off nature of the site's overall administration.

    Reddit had to get a recent (as in goddamn last month) public shaming to get them to delete incest subreddits. And 4chan has long been weev's playground. Hey, turns out that letting impressionable teenagers interact with a terrorist causes issues.

    this is incest not incels? I'm not spending several minutes reading about incest so maybe I missed it?

    The point is that what helps drive these movements is being given accessible, unmoderated hosting. It basically takes giving these companies bloody noses publicly to get them to remove these groups.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »

    The Larson network encourages incels to take “the rapepill” — defined as “the understanding that for civilization to survive, femoids need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose is to obey, and bear the children of, supreme gentlemen such as ourselves.” (The term “supreme gentleman” is one Rodger used to describe himself.) One of Larson’s sites, called Raping Girls Is Fun, currently has nearly 500 forum members; I’ve seen its users swap stories about the women they say they’ve assaulted and tips on how to commit rape most effectively.

    Jesus fucking christ, I knew about Incels, but this one is a new one on me!

    Yeah that's pretty de riguer for incels. They have extended fantasies wherein they rape their sisters. They have no women to whom they feel any sort of humanity towards, not even their mothers. (though they wouldn't rape their mothers since women over 30 are what they call "past the wall" and useless for all purposes, even sex).

    I just...what?

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »

    The Larson network encourages incels to take “the rapepill” — defined as “the understanding that for civilization to survive, femoids need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose is to obey, and bear the children of, supreme gentlemen such as ourselves.” (The term “supreme gentleman” is one Rodger used to describe himself.) One of Larson’s sites, called Raping Girls Is Fun, currently has nearly 500 forum members; I’ve seen its users swap stories about the women they say they’ve assaulted and tips on how to commit rape most effectively.

    Jesus fucking christ, I knew about Incels, but this one is a new one on me!

    Yeah that's pretty de riguer for incels. They have extended fantasies wherein they rape their sisters. They have no women to whom they feel any sort of humanity towards, not even their mothers. (though they wouldn't rape their mothers since women over 30 are what they call "past the wall" and useless for all purposes, even sex).

    I just...what?

    Welcome to the "black pill."

    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    Preacher wrote: »
    God the ages here make me so sad. Also the story of a kid inviting other kids to his party and they not showing up is like a serious fear of mine with my son.

    That happened to the son of a couple I know at his last birthday. They even called the other parents the day before to see who was going to come, and many said they were, but none did...

    Hexmage-PA on
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    I wanted to make sure the Love, Not Anger site mentioned in the earlier link was posted here:

    Love, Not Anger: Beyond Involuntary Celibacy
    Love Not Anger is a project to research how lonely people might find respectful love, instead of being stuck in anger. We envision a society where everyone can find the love they want, while respecting other people.

    Many people of all genders find themselves lonely, unable to find dating or sexual partners, for many reasons. Nobody is entitled to sex, but everybody deserves love and respect. Can we help each other find happiness, instead of descending into anger, hatred and violence?

    Love Not Anger was founded on April 28, 2018 by Alana, who originated Involuntary Celibacy in the late 1990s. Subscribe to the newsletter to get monthly updates from Love Not Anger.

    Fill Out Our Survey!

    If you have difficulty finding dating partners, or you were a "late bloomer" who struggled to start dating, we are gathering your experiences and ideas with this survey, which is open until April 30, 2019. Thank you for contributing to this early research.

    Academics and mental health professionals are now invited to collaborate in researching how to support people who are lonely for love. This will lead to developing helpful information and support services. We are seeking partnerships with non-profit organizations to do this work.

    That site also shares the organization's Twitter feed, which posts related content (most recently asking for the input of autistic people).

    Here's the summary and a link to their "Dating Difficulties" survey:
    This survey by LoveNotAnger.org is intended to find out: What are the causes and consequences of dating difficulties? The results will be used to recommend supports that would be helpful to people who have never been in a romantic relationship, or who have been single for a long time. This survey is open to people of all countries, ages, genders and orientations. You might currently have dating difficulties, or you might be a "late bloomer" who struggled to start dating.

    This survey includes 10 quick questions and 5 free-text questions, so you choose how much time to spend responding. All questions are optional. If this topic is sensitive for you, please ensure you have some emotional support available after answering the survey. The survey will be open until April 30, 2019.

    Your answers will be kept confidential by Alana@LoveNotAnger.org, and aggregated anonymously into a report by June 30, 2019. You will have the choice to provide your email address for an optional follow-up interview. Thank you for contributing to this project.

    Dating Difficulties survey

    Hexmage-PA on
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    its awful that my first thought is man she is going to get attacked, and they are going to try and expose that data

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    The Love, Not Anger site also posted links to these two articles I found interesting (and very relatable...):

    Inside the Mind of Guys Who Are Shy and Inexperienced with Women
    ...their central problem is that they're just really anxious, scared, and inhibited around women. Almost all men get somewhat nervous when they have to ask a woman out, or kiss her, or even talk to her for the first time. But when a guy is really shy his nervousness is at a level where it usually prevents him from doing any of those things. It's legitimately strong, not something where they can just take a deep breath and push through it.

    ...they have a reason to feel pressured and jittery around her, and that's exactly what happens. The scenario then goes in one of the following directions: They're too nervous to talk to her again; They do talk to her, but they're such a withdrawn, obvious wreck that she's not interested; They talk to her, but are too nervous to be themselves, end up acting like a goofball, and shoot themselves in the foot; They're so nervous that at that immediate moment escaping the anxious symptoms takes precedence over anything else, and they act rude or aloof towards her to purposely sabotage their chance.

    ...they'll often rule out more obviously experienced girls as prospects. Too scary. Only harmless, innocent-seeming girls don't arouse their fears. But there are only so many women out there who are just as shy, innocent, and inexperienced as them, so it really cuts down their possibilities, and makes them put that much more pressure on themselves when they do find one who fits the description.

    ...they may always have a tougher time of it than some men. They're often late bloomers, since their nerves and general social awkwardness kept them from getting into the game as early as everyone else.

    ...insecure thoughts often flow through their heads in an effortless stream; "I'm hopeless. I'll never get better. I suck with women. I'm a loser. I'm not good looking enough. There's no way that girl at work actually likes me. I totally screwed up with her the other day when I made that dumb joke. I give up." It's all quite self-sabotaging. First, a lack of confidence isn't all that attractive. Next, they can be hyper-alert for any signs of rejection, and almost eager to conclude the worst.

    ...shy guys can have the attitude that in order to get a girlfriend the world has to send them one packaged in such a way that they won't feel anxious or have to do anything that pushes them out of their comfort zone. They figure everything will finally work out one day when they stumble into a girl who naturally likes them, who they won't have to take the initiative to talk to, who they won't have to ask out, and who has the magic combination of qualities which ensures they never feel nervous around her. It's also really common for shyer guys to fantasize about meeting a really forward, aggressive woman who makes all the scary moves for them. She asks him out, she kisses him first, etc. However, if a guy is really shy he may still balk in the face of someone so direct, and still blow his chance.

    ...they get their ideas of what dating and girlfriends and relationships are like from sources such as movies, television, magazines, the internet, and snippets of conversation they've heard from other people.

    ...whenever a half-decent girl comes into the life of a shy guy through school, work, or his social circle, his mind immediately leaps to, "Could this be the one??? Is this the girl who I'll end my streak of loneliness with?" They may start a new job, chat to one of their female co-workers about the weather for two minutes, and go home that night and daydream about dating her. They'll quickly get infatuated and preoccupied, constantly thinking if it's going to all work out with her. What's weird is, objectively these girls often aren't even that appealing to the shy guy, or he obviously wouldn't be her type. However, because they have so few options, and are so desperate to meet someone, any minimally friendly girl they meet instantly becomes a possibility. They almost have to like these girls, what other choice do they have?

    Problems Facing Women Who are Shy and Inexperienced with Men
    If a guy approaches a girl, and she doesn't talk back to him much, he's likely to conclude she's just cold and rude and uninterested, and not consider the idea that she was paralyzed with nerves and didn't know what to say, or she was so anxious that she kept checking her cellphone to make him go away.

    ...sometimes the default assumption is that women are naturally more comfortable in social situations, and so if they seem distant or untalkative it's because they're choosing to be that way. Attractive shy women face this bias the most, since people sometimes have trouble conceiving that a physically good looking person could have any problems with their confidence.

    ...there's a belief that shyness is seen as a major flaw in men, but endearing, even desirable, in women.

    The belief is since men are expected to initiate romantic relationships, and to do the work of easing any of the woman's initial hesitation or anxiety, shy women don't have to work as hard to overcome their issues. They can just sit back and wait for men to come to them, then let him do everything to move the relationship forward. They get to be the choosers, sorting through the platter of men that are presented to them, and rejecting the ones that don't meet their standards. Even if a woman is really awkward, enough guys will still attempt to get with her, and will persist in the face of her shyness that she'll end up in a relationship before long.

    A bigger issue with the 'let people come to you and choose from the applicants' approach is that it takes away a lot of a woman's ability to choose who she ends up with. What if she's really interested in a particular guy, but he hasn't noticed her and isn't likely to? If she doesn't have the ability to engage him then she'll miss out on that chance. A problem some shy women report having is that they're able to find boyfriends, but the guys who typically take the initiative to try to date them aren't the ones they're really into. A shy woman's self-confidence may not be great and she feels she has to take whatever comes to her.

    As to why some women don't work as much as they could to overcome their fear of rejection and rely on letting men approach them even if the system isn't perfect, can you totally blame them? I said earlier how hard I think it is, and how many men only learn to overcome this fear because they have no choice. Some women may also buy into the idea that it's not lady like to pursue men, and that it's the male's job to go after them.

    Hexmage-PA on
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Yeah, women always being on the receiving end of courtship perpetuates a power imbalance. I used to think the seeming ubiquity of dating apps would help resolve this.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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