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How the Hell Does [Asking People Out] Work, Actually?

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    The "enthusiastic" part of enthusiastic consent was added when it became clear that a lot of people, especially women, have a hard time clearly and consistently refusing consent due to fear and other factors, especially once someone tries to debate it.

    It's really, really messed up and dangerous, but that's what happens when you're dealing with a forever of sexism. Really sucks for people who are shy but also actually interested, as well, but the alternative is pretty horrible.

    Enthusiastic consent is absolutely needed before you do anything.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    To get away from the Ansari incident, I'll give a personal example where I failed to read signals that, in hindsight, are now incredibly obvious:

    It was probably the fourth or fifth date I'd ever been on. I was maybe 24. Me and my date had gotten back from seeing a movie and I had taken her to the parking lot in our hometown where she had left her car. After I parked she said, "It's pretty cold tonight." I took this at face value and said "well you could start up your car so it's warming up and get back in mine while you wait." She did as I suggested, starting her car and getting back in mine.

    We talked a bit, and soon she said again, verbatim, "It's pretty cold tonight." I assume, now that I have at least a bit more of a clue how dating is expected to work, that she must have been expecting me to say something cheesy like "well then allow me to warm you up", but instead I just thought it was weird she was repeating herself and replied "yep, it sure is".

    She got out soon after and didn't return my texts from then on, which bummed me out because I had thought things went super well and had no idea (at the time) what had went wrong.

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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    To get away from the Ansari incident, I'll give a personal example where I failed to read signals that, in hindsight, are now incredibly obvious:

    It was probably the fourth or fifth date I'd ever been on. I was maybe 24. Me and my date had gotten back from seeing a movie and I had taken her to the parking lot in our hometown where she had left her car. After I parked she said, "It's pretty cold tonight." I took this at face value and said "well you could start up your car so it's warming up and get back in mine while you wait." She did as I suggested, starting her car and getting back in mine.

    We talked a bit, and soon she said again, verbatim, "It's pretty cold tonight." I assume, now that I have at least a bit more of a clue how dating is expected to work, that she must have been expecting me to say something cheesy like "well then allow me to warm you up", but instead I just thought it was weird she was repeating herself and replied "yep, it sure is".

    She got out soon after and didn't return my texts from then on, which bummed me out because I had thought things went super well and had no idea (at the time) what had went wrong.

    This is why, as adults, we need to be clear about our intentions and wording. For her, that might have been "I would like to cuddle" for another person, if you acted on that with the assumption of how this person wanted it, it might have been sexual assault or at best a really embarrassing situation for you for misreading it.

    The whole "I can't be forthcoming about what I want" for women is a byproduct of society's dumb patriarchal views on gender roles (a woman is slutty if she does that) because some guys use it as an excuse to ignore consent when it does go past their comfort zone. Guys as a whole need to be better at stopping when asked, but girls as a whole need to be better about verbally consenting too. In my experience this is a two way street and there's a lot of misleading garbage stuff from both men and women. The reason we put more emphasis on men is because men are much more violent on average with sexual assault.

    You did exactly what you should've done. Perhaps, though, maybe you should've asked "would you like me to help keep you warm?" so that she could respond without going straight for the jugular with "allow me to warm you up." Give her an out.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    bowen wrote: »
    Perhaps, though, maybe you should've asked "would you like me to help keep you warm?" so that she could respond without going straight for the jugular with "allow me to warm you up." Give her an out.

    It's easy to think of such things after the fact, but harder to be so precise in the moment.

    I will say one thing that hangs me up is the thought of always asking "is it okay if I do this", "can I do this", "may I do this", etc. Framing it instead as "would you like me to do this", "do you want me to do this", etc sounds a bit more natural and less awkward. Then again, that's also assuming they're the type that expects this and not the type that wants a man to be more proactive.

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I've known plenty of women who have said things like, "I hate when a guy asks, I want them to be confident and just go for it" and plenty of people in general who can't figure out if something is a date or just two friends hanging out.

    I think communication is simple but hard and if a date gets turned off by you asking for some clarification about contact that's their problem and you shouldn't feel embarrassed or uncool because you made the mistake of asking.

    Edit: I'm sure it's not something exclusive to straight women, I just haven't personally heard comments like that from other groups.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I've known plenty of women who have said things like, "I hate when a guy asks, I want them to be confident and just go for it" and plenty of people in general who can't figure out if something is a date or just two friends hanging out.

    I think communication is simple but hard and if a date gets turned off by you asking for some clarification about contact that's their problem and you shouldn't feel embarrassed or uncool because you made the mistake of asking.

    Edit: I'm sure it's not something exclusive to straight women, I just haven't personally heard comments like that from other groups.

    The idea that some women don't like men to ask for permission because it makes the man asking seem unconfident is an angle I'd never considered before, but I guess it makes sense. I'd assumed it was just viewed as unnecessary or annoying by those women.

    Then again, I've also heard dating advice along the lines of "never ask a woman if she's having a good time on a date because you'll come off as insecure", so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Between gender roles, the social contract, puritan sex values and insane misinformation on the internet, something that should be as simple as saying, "Hi, how's your day going? ...good to hear, wanna go out sometime?" becomes way more complicated than it ever needs to be. We've surrounded dating and communication with so much weird shame and language of intentionally ambiguous value that more than ever we need to teach kids how to talk to one another. I doubt we do, though.

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    The primary challenge in dating is that many women want all the illicit flirtation and workplace romances and men to take charge and know what they want and when they want it. All the stereotypes of a bad romcom are true. It's just that women only want those things from the men they want them from, and they absolutely don't want them from men they don't like.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    tbloxham wrote: »
    The primary challenge in dating is that many women want all the illicit flirtation and workplace romances and men to take charge and know what they want and when they want it. All the stereotypes of a bad romcom are true. It's just that women only want those things from the men they want them from, and they absolutely don't want them from men they don't like.

    Being inappropriately hit on is totally okay if the person is attractive. Otherwise it's all ew and eye rolls. It's true for everyone, but romcoms need to go away.

    Because I love this video - I submit the following.
    [url=

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    The primary challenge in dating is that many women want all the illicit flirtation and workplace romances and men to take charge and know what they want and when they want it. All the stereotypes of a bad romcom are true. It's just that women only want those things from the men they want them from, and they absolutely don't want them from men they don't like.

    Being inappropriately hit on is totally okay if the person is attractive. Otherwise it's all ew and eye rolls. It's true for everyone, but romcoms need to go away.

    Romcoms just describe a basic underlying human need to be wanted, and to engage in slightly risque and illicit activity which is at all times secretly within our control. Romcoms create the narrative that this is a real achievable thing, it's not why women want that.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Both sides need to be explicit in their communications. If you aren't comfortable being explicit, due to whatever reason, you should not agree to be alone with the other person or potentially not even dating.

    This is gooseshit. Women should not have to be afraid of being sexually assaulted because they don't make themselves clear. If you are receiving mixed signals, you don't go any further until things are clarified. The problem isn't that people aren't being explicit, it's that we teach men to look for the abscence of a no, rather than the presence of a yes. This is why I'm big on enthusiastic consent,and looking for people who are eager to be around you.

    Like I said, both sides are at fault. Men should not proceed without explicit consent, and women need to actually give explicit responses and not send mixed signals / act un-eager while actually being interested / etc.

    e:

    As an example, while walking through central park is fine, doing it at midnight is an obvious bad decision. While not my "fault" if I end up getting mugged, in the sense of deserving it to happen, I still put myself in that situation via my actions. The mugger should not have mugged me, and I should not have been there at midnight.

    http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

    See, there's a very real risk for women that if we say No, what happens to us will be much, much worse than if we just give in. And if a man has already ignored our Soft No, the risk is that much higher.

    The entire damn world is Central Park at midnight, for us.

    Tumblr is cleaning house, but hopefully that link should work for at least the next couple of weeks.

    Jedoc wrote: »
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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I've known plenty of women who have said things like, "I hate when a guy asks, I want them to be confident and just go for it" and plenty of people in general who can't figure out if something is a date or just two friends hanging out.

    I think communication is simple but hard and if a date gets turned off by you asking for some clarification about contact that's their problem and you shouldn't feel embarrassed or uncool because you made the mistake of asking.

    Edit: I'm sure it's not something exclusive to straight women, I just haven't personally heard comments like that from other groups.

    The idea that some women don't like men to ask for permission because it makes the man asking seem unconfident is an angle I'd never considered before, but I guess it makes sense. I'd assumed it was just viewed as unnecessary or annoying by those women.

    Then again, I've also heard dating advice along the lines of "never ask a woman if she's having a good time on a date because you'll come off as insecure", so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

    The "I like it when men take charge and don't ask for permission because he seems more confident and romantic" is a thing, however it leads to real shit situations so we all need to agree as a society that that shit needs to be killed off for the sake of everyone's sanity, health, and safety.

    Essentially: we need to rethink disney and rom-coms as how to base our romantic relationships in reality

    Ladies.
    Elvenshaedispatch.oCalicaCowSharkMr Ray
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Both sides need to be explicit in their communications. If you aren't comfortable being explicit, due to whatever reason, you should not agree to be alone with the other person or potentially not even dating.

    This is gooseshit. Women should not have to be afraid of being sexually assaulted because they don't make themselves clear. If you are receiving mixed signals, you don't go any further until things are clarified. The problem isn't that people aren't being explicit, it's that we teach men to look for the abscence of a no, rather than the presence of a yes. This is why I'm big on enthusiastic consent,and looking for people who are eager to be around you.

    Like I said, both sides are at fault. Men should not proceed without explicit consent, and women need to actually give explicit responses and not send mixed signals / act un-eager while actually being interested / etc.

    e:

    As an example, while walking through central park is fine, doing it at midnight is an obvious bad decision. While not my "fault" if I end up getting mugged, in the sense of deserving it to happen, I still put myself in that situation via my actions. The mugger should not have mugged me, and I should not have been there at midnight.

    http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

    See, there's a very real risk for women that if we say No, what happens to us will be much, much worse than if we just give in. And if a man has already ignored our Soft No, the risk is that much higher.

    The entire damn world is Central Park at midnight, for us.

    Tumblr is cleaning house, but hopefully that link should work for at least the next couple of weeks.

    It's a big enough problem that some women who have known me for a quarter of my life and who have a low-trauma background still have a hard time being treated by me because their instincts say that man+gift=expectations, and I am known to be a safe enough dude that it actually gets me flak from women who are frustrated at me.

    Throw in someone who is less safe or who is an unknown and to some women every request has an "or else" whispered at the end of it.

    I can't imagine how hard it must be to basically never feel entirely safe around anyone.

    Calica
  • RozRoz Boss of InternetRegistered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    Brainleech wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Yeah, a valentines day gift is pretty much publicly shouting "I AM DATING YOU" or "I WANT TO DATE YOU." It's not really something you do to ask somebody out unless you're a fan of mildly-grand gestures and the related risk of blowback.

    I had no idea how to ask her out that was a mental block in my mind I ran over and over I still have this problem as I just don't know how

    “Would you like to get a drink/coffee sometime?”

    I really like coffee and sometimes I just want to get coffee with people, especially colleagues. It's a good chance to talk privately outside of the workplace without worry of people overhearing you. That said, I'm always nervous doing this with my female coworkers because of the dating implication. Thankfully I'm married, so I think that diffuses the situation somewhat. But I always try to be mindful and phrase it as platonic as I can. Sometimes you just want to talk to people about work or even things outside of work, while not actually being in the workplace - with no desire for a date or any possible romantic context.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2018
    Progression of a date or relationship ideally (in terms of what makes both parties comfortable) works in implications and half steps. The great dating documentary Hitch illustrated it best - if you want to, say, kiss a girl for the first time, you lean in 90%, and let her go the final ten.

    This has many benefits! First, it lessens the blow if you're rejected. It offers enough plausible deniability to sooth your ego. You know you wanted to kiss her, and you know she knows you wanted to kiss her, but you don't KNOW know, which gets into the mechanics of common knowledge* and is really cool from a logic standpoint, but the bottom line is that it hurts less than, say, "Would you like to kiss me?" "No."

    The other advantage is that it's a more graceful and romantic way of establishing consent but still pretty clear cut for most people. You're not pressing your face against hers, you're just moving in close in a way that makes clear she can reciprocate or not. In a way, it's not so much making a move as inducing HER to make a move, which means it only happen if she wants (yay, consent!) and also if it doesn't, it can be rationalized as less "she denied my move" and more "she didn't make a move off her own." It's subtle, but confidence is a game of subtleties.

    Of course, this is all contingent upon you being able to read body language and use nonverbal communication. It works for 95% of the population (I have shitty self esteem and am not exactly graceful in the romantic arts, but I still managed to acquire a few girlfriends in ways that were not hopelessly awkward), but if it doesn't, "DO YOU WANT TO KISS ME, CHECK THIS BOX" is a reliable and unambiguous standby.

    *Common knowledge is an incredibly fascinating topic, illustrated well by the old logic puzzle about the island full of blue eyed dudes, and I highly recommend reading about it to anyone interested. It really does explain a ton of social interactions, and the difference between, say, knowing they know that you know, and THEM knowing that you know that they know that you know, is surprisingly large.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge_(logic)

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    bowen wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I've known plenty of women who have said things like, "I hate when a guy asks, I want them to be confident and just go for it" and plenty of people in general who can't figure out if something is a date or just two friends hanging out.

    I think communication is simple but hard and if a date gets turned off by you asking for some clarification about contact that's their problem and you shouldn't feel embarrassed or uncool because you made the mistake of asking.

    Edit: I'm sure it's not something exclusive to straight women, I just haven't personally heard comments like that from other groups.

    The idea that some women don't like men to ask for permission because it makes the man asking seem unconfident is an angle I'd never considered before, but I guess it makes sense. I'd assumed it was just viewed as unnecessary or annoying by those women.

    Then again, I've also heard dating advice along the lines of "never ask a woman if she's having a good time on a date because you'll come off as insecure", so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

    The "I like it when men take charge and don't ask for permission because he seems more confident and romantic" is a thing, however it leads to real shit situations so we all need to agree as a society that that shit needs to be killed off for the sake of everyone's sanity, health, and safety.

    Essentially: we need to rethink disney and rom-coms as how to base our romantic relationships in reality

    That's easy to say as an ideal, but how does "killing it off" work in practice? Lots of women who otherwise aren't conservative or old-fashioned still follow these dating norms, or at least the ones they personally like.

    For example, one woman I was seeing despised Trump and called him sexist, but the first time we went to a store together she got to the door first but stepped aside. I was confused for a second and thought maybe she wanted to tell me something before we went in for some reason, but she asked "well, aren't you gonna get the door for me?"

    I mean, I wasn't about to say "it's 2017, women are allowed to open doors now". Similarly, if a woman wants the man to take charge what is the man supposed to do, mansplain to their partner about how that's a regressive and problematic societal norm and they need to change? Sure, maybe that could go over well, but I'm not sure.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I wouldn't want to date a woman that expects me to open doors for her because that ain't me, so I guess in that scenario I'd make a joke about it and if she was deadly serious well lady thanks but no thanks.

    Sometimes you'll date people who have incompatible romantic desires with yours and that's fine. You do not need this person, there are other people. That's why you're dating, to determine compatibility.

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to date a woman that expects me to open doors for her because that ain't me, so I guess in that scenario I'd make a joke about it and if she was deadly serious well lady thanks but no thanks.

    Sometimes you'll date people who have incompatible romantic desires with yours and that's fine. You do not need this person, there are other people. That's why you're dating, to determine compatibility.

    Which I feel is really what most of these discussions come down to - it's actually a fairly big ocean and insomuch as dating is about establishing compatibility, if you have a real hard time communicating by whatever means then the relationship is probably going to have problems.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Off topic indeed

    Is this thread still serving the OPs discussion purpose, this mod wonders

    It seems to me that this thread has nothing to do with dating and is actually about the "pitfalls of consent in the #metoo era", wich is a shame, because exploring the details of dating in the digital era sounded fun, but a thread to make veiled complaints about consent seems horrible to me.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Solar wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to date a woman that expects me to open doors for her because that ain't me, so I guess in that scenario I'd make a joke about it and if she was deadly serious well lady thanks but no thanks.

    Honestly I default to opening doors for a date but would be fine if she said she didn't want that. I don't have a very long dating history, but I've yet to encounter a woman who didn't like that I opened a door for her. Most seem to either enjoy it or be indifferent.

    I'm curious; has anyone here ever opened a door for a woman who responded negatively to it? Or is that just something people act like is more common than it is?

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  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to date a woman that expects me to open doors for her because that ain't me, so I guess in that scenario I'd make a joke about it and if she was deadly serious well lady thanks but no thanks.

    Honestly I default to opening doors for a date but would be fine if she said she didn't want that. I don't have a very long dating history, but I've yet to encounter a woman who didn't like that I opened a door for her. Most seem to either enjoy it or be indifferent.

    I'm curious; has anyone here ever opened a door for a woman who responded negatively to it? Or is that just something people act like is more common than it is?

    Yeah, I'll raise my hand to that one.

    This was back in my undergrad days, and I still don't know if it was a date or not...but I once opened a door for a woman I was spending some time with and she just flat out told me "I have arms too, y'know."

    She also made it keenly known the patriarchal nature (edit: origins) of allowing women to go through doors first.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    FANTOMAS wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Off topic indeed

    Is this thread still serving the OPs discussion purpose, this mod wonders

    It seems to me that this thread has nothing to do with dating and is actually about the "pitfalls of consent in the #metoo era", wich is a shame, because exploring the details of dating in the digital era sounded fun, but a thread to make veiled complaints about consent seems horrible to me.

    Too be fair, #MeToo's impact on the dating world should be acknowledged. It's important for communication between the sexes, as it's been highlighted that that has been a serious problem which needs to be addressed and this effects everyone. Consent is vital for dating, and discussing the signals would go a long way to defining boundaries, as not everyone is good in picking up on them. Nor is shutting down the male side's perspective on dating, whether it's legit or not. If it's not this thread can provide insight into how to avoid these pitfalls so women they date won't be put in similar situations.

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    There's plenty of room between 'enthusiastic consent' and 'Maxed out Windows Vista UAC, but for dating'.

    Will you run into people that berate you for touching a boob when you only received consent for intercourse?

    Of course, cuz people. But don't get all wound up like that's the new normal come to ruin relationships.

    If you don't want to date people who require fresh consent for every single act of physical intimacy in perpetuity, it's not like you're not going to have trouble with your dating pool.

    On the other hand, rolling the dice on sexual assault because verbal consent in the early stages of a physical relationship is a mood killer for you is going to be an actual problem you're going to have to work out, unless you just wanna wait for the sexbots.

    FANTOMASelectricitylikesmeCowSharkdispatch.oGnome-InterruptusMr Ray
  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    There's plenty of room between 'enthusiastic consent' and 'Maxed out Windows Vista UAC, but for dating'.

    Will you run into people that berate you for touching a boob when you only received consent for intercourse?

    Of course, cuz people. But don't get all wound up like that's the new normal come to ruin relationships.

    If you don't want to date people who require fresh consent for every single act of physical intimacy in perpetuity, it's not like you're not going to have trouble with your dating pool.

    On the other hand, rolling the dice on sexual assault because verbal consent in the early stages of a physical relationship is a mood killer for you is going to be an actual problem you're going to have to work out, unless you just wanna wait for the sexbots.

    Beautiful, you said all that I wanted to say, but without earning infractions.

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    The opening doors things absolutely fascinates me, because I feel there's a substantial cultural issue involved.

    Living in Atlantic Canada, the general practice is that as you go through a door, you look behind you. If a person is within a few steps of the door you hold the door until they arrive, at which point you release and the door becomes their responsibility for the next person. If the person is more than a few steps away, you release the door, and stop letting the cold air in. Whether either person is male or female in this exchange is utterly irrelevant. You also hold doors if you see someone coming up with their hands full in such a way that they look like they could appreciate someone holding the door.

    But the whole bit where a woman waits in the car for a guy to come around and open the door? The guys who see a woman coming from across the parking lot and hold a door open expectantly? That's just absolutely weird and bizarre and creepy.

    Dinosaurs were made up by the CIA to discourage time travel.
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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    I hold the door for anyone near me when I reach it and move on if no one is close. Letting a door close in someone's face is fucking weird. So is standing around like hur hur I'm gonna hold this door for a girl.

    It'd be a red flag for me if someone berated me for it. Mostly because 'holding doors for anyone if it makes sense' is at least as common as 'holding doors for girls'.

    I'm not going to be a jerk to random people just in case someone takes my polite actions in the worst light possible.

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to date a woman that expects me to open doors for her because that ain't me, so I guess in that scenario I'd make a joke about it and if she was deadly serious well lady thanks but no thanks.

    Honestly I default to opening doors for a date but would be fine if she said she didn't want that. I don't have a very long dating history, but I've yet to encounter a woman who didn't like that I opened a door for her. Most seem to either enjoy it or be indifferent.

    I'm curious; has anyone here ever opened a door for a woman who responded negatively to it? Or is that just something people act like is more common than it is?

    I hold doors open for everybody. Most of the people I know do the same thing. It doesn't matter if I'm dating you or have never met you - if I see you coming and I get there first I'll HODOR on down.

    I dated someone for a while who not only objected vocally to having the door held open but would actually refuse to walk through it until I let go of it so they could open it themselves. I had to start trying to get to the door second on purpose just so that I wouldn't have to awkwardly go through and let the door shut so that there was no possibility of my appearing to have held it open for them. It was weird.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to date a woman that expects me to open doors for her because that ain't me, so I guess in that scenario I'd make a joke about it and if she was deadly serious well lady thanks but no thanks.

    Honestly I default to opening doors for a date but would be fine if she said she didn't want that. I don't have a very long dating history, but I've yet to encounter a woman who didn't like that I opened a door for her. Most seem to either enjoy it or be indifferent.

    I'm curious; has anyone here ever opened a door for a woman who responded negatively to it? Or is that just something people act like is more common than it is?


    I dated someone for a while who not only objected vocally to having the door held open but would actually refuse to walk through it until I let go of it so they could open it themselves. I had to start trying to get to the door second on purpose just so that I wouldn't have to awkwardly go through and let the door shut so that there was no possibility of my appearing to have held it open for them. It was weird.

    Men holding doors open for other men is so common on top of the more stereotypical women, children, elderly, etc. that this is hard for me to fathom.
    I hold doors open for everybody. Most of the people I know do the same thing. It doesn't matter if I'm dating you or have never met you - if I see you coming and I get there first I'll HODOR on down.

    Still too soon! :(

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • BogartBogart I Will Cure You Registered User, Moderator mod
    This thread doesn't really seem to be about the topic in the OP any more and is kind of bouncing around from one aspect of men/women interactions to another like an extremely off topic pinball.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    I dated someone for a while who not only objected vocally to having the door held open but would actually refuse to walk through it until I let go of it so they could open it themselves. I had to start trying to get to the door second on purpose just so that I wouldn't have to awkwardly go through and let the door shut so that there was no possibility of my appearing to have held it open for them. It was weird.

    That sounds terrible.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    However, and I feel like this should establish my own interest in the topic at hand, I have no such personal experience to add to this thread. I am a 27 year old man who has never had a long or short term romantic relationship, never been on a date of any kind, never asked anyone out, never flirted or been flirted with (to my knowledge) and no idea how any of that sort of thing is supposed to work in the meatspace, and only a vague understanding of how to go about it in the cyberrealm. I would describe myself as being an otherwise fairly well adjusted and sociable individual.

    Your situation seems unusual enough that you might want to get a therapist to give you feedback on your social skills. Flirting is often presented as this magical thing where you fling out smart lines like a '50s movie star, but it's more a little light teasing. You've most likely done it without noticing. It doesn't matter if you never do it, because people mainly do it for their own amusement rather than to get laid.

    If you want to ask someone out, it's best to start with something low-commitment, like getting coffee at a nice cafe, or a drink after work. Always a public place, for safety reasons. You use the time to figure out whether you have interests in common and get on well. If you find that both of you are talking in an animated fashion, you have made a connection, and can suggest another date based on the topic of conversation that you are enjoying. For instance, if you find you both love comics, arrange to visit the local comic con together, or if you love dancing, invite her to an event.

    If the conversation is stilted or you aren't really interested in her, don't feel that there's some sort of failure, it's a natural way of establishing that you have nothing in common before you have 3 kids and a mortgage. So count it as a blessing.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I'd like to address the self-pitying delusion that in past times, a man would have been handed a woman by his parents in an arranged marriage. In Western culture this simply did not happen, unless you were rich or titled.

    In fact, in a lot of places, young folks were even more sex-starved than they are now, because they were expected to have enough saved up to set up a household before they got married, which could easily be their late '20s. And without contraception there wasn't much room for casual sex, because a woman who fell pregnant and couldn't get the guy to marry her was literally "ruined" as in she could expect her life to go very badly from then on.

    Even if you were rich and titled, getting an arranged marriage was probably not all that fun, since young rich men probably had an idea of who they wanted to marry, and it wasn't necessarily their rich cousin who they had nothing in common with.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    However, and I feel like this should establish my own interest in the topic at hand, I have no such personal experience to add to this thread. I am a 27 year old man who has never had a long or short term romantic relationship, never been on a date of any kind, never asked anyone out, never flirted or been flirted with (to my knowledge) and no idea how any of that sort of thing is supposed to work in the meatspace, and only a vague understanding of how to go about it in the cyberrealm. I would describe myself as being an otherwise fairly well adjusted and sociable individual.

    Your situation seems unusual enough that you might want to get a therapist to give you feedback on your social skills. Flirting is often presented as this magical thing where you fling out smart lines like a '50s movie star, but it's more a little light teasing. You've most likely done it without noticing. It doesn't matter if you never do it, because people mainly do it for their own amusement rather than to get laid.

    All of this is key. A lot of flirting is body language that people do without realizing it. And related to the last point, the body language can be a more important one to read as it's not the type of flirting people throw out just because they think both parties involved would find it amusing.
    If the conversation is stilted or you aren't really interested in her, don't feel that there's some sort of failure, it's a natural way of establishing that you have nothing in common before you have 3 kids and a mortgage. So count it as a blessing.

    I think this can be a tougher aspect as a lot of people just aren't as conversational as others. That's another reason why the body language aspect is good to be learn to read. But sometimes one just isn't around others they're really compatible with and therefore haven't experienced one of the ways things ideally feel. I know I've pursued women that in retrospect I had no real chemistry with just because they were cute and we had things in common and there was even less compatibility with anyone else i'd met that year. Knowing what I do now I'm fine with things never going anywhere with those women because this really is a matter of quality over quantity.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    In fact, in a lot of places, young folks were even more sex-starved than they are now, because they were expected to have enough saved up to set up a household before they got married, which could easily be their late '20s.
    That expectation hasn't entirely gone away. For all of the millennial men living with their parents, it may be fiscally responsible given the size of their paychecks, but it's also a massive damper on their dating lives. As I touched on in the Incel thread, there's not a lot of positive representation of that behavior out there. A guy living with his parents in any movie or TV show or book is going to be the butt of many jokes for having that arrangement.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    In fact, in a lot of places, young folks were even more sex-starved than they are now, because they were expected to have enough saved up to set up a household before they got married, which could easily be their late '20s.
    That expectation hasn't entirely gone away. For all of the millennial men living with their parents, it may be fiscally responsible given the size of their paychecks, but it's also a massive damper on their dating lives. As I touched on in the Incel thread, there's not a lot of positive representation of that behavior out there. A guy living with his parents in any movie or TV show or book is going to be the butt of many jokes for having that arrangement.

    There's a certain amount of financial relationship sorting, where a woman with her own apartment and a surging career might not want to date a guy without two pennies to rub together, but the economically equivalent woman would not care so much. And because the genders are more equal these days, a young male executive is probably not going to want to seriously date a woman who lives in her childhood bedroom and knits for Etsy, either.

    As for dumb Hollywood jokes, they are dumb, and you can't live your life by hackneyed cliches written by some 65-year-old writer for the 17th time.

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    In fact, in a lot of places, young folks were even more sex-starved than they are now, because they were expected to have enough saved up to set up a household before they got married, which could easily be their late '20s.
    That expectation hasn't entirely gone away. For all of the millennial men living with their parents, it may be fiscally responsible given the size of their paychecks, but it's also a massive damper on their dating lives. As I touched on in the Incel thread, there's not a lot of positive representation of that behavior out there. A guy living with his parents in any movie or TV show or book is going to be the butt of many jokes for having that arrangement.

    I find how quickly the idea that this arrangement started getting mined for humor interesting if depressing considering how recent the idea of a young unmarried man living apart from family is in the context of history.

    I'll also say that a lot of it comes down more to the logistical and operational issues more so than the stigma. My grandmother lived with me for a good number of years after I finished college because I was the only family in the area after my mother died. And while I avoided any social stigma because it was my property she was living in and I was providing for her, it was still a pain in the butt for dating and that will still be around even if we stop treating young adults living with their parents as less than adults. Japan has tried to work around this kind of situation with the love hotel industry and the like which we don't have a good equivalent for in the West (the closest we have tend to be both cheap feeling and skeevy feeling instead of just skeevy feeling). I imagine adults older than me that get thrust back into the dating pool can have similar experiences if their parents are of advanced enough age to need to move back in their their middle aged children.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    As for dumb Hollywood jokes, they are dumb, and you can't live your life by hackneyed cliches written by some 65-year-old writer for the 17th time.

    They may be dumb, but narratives matter and having positive/neutral representation matters. When every narrative equates living at home to being a failure, that has a societal consequence.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Half of my family has done the "moving back in with your parents" thing, and no joke, it does feel like a failure and does alter dating dynamics. Nobody is thrilled about it, and there is societal expectations and judgement around what it means when you are living with your parents.

    Speaking personally, I pretty well shut down while I was living with the 'rents, so the question of how the hell to [ask someone out] didn't even come up (edit: because I didn't feel confident to do so). Culture matters; upbringing matters; expectations matter, regardless of how healthy or unhealthy they are.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Perhaps Hollywood should do more heroes who live at home when young. Spiderman comes to mind. He's portrayed as not just broke, but a dutiful nephew, by living with his aunt (parental figure.)

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    In fact, in a lot of places, young folks were even more sex-starved than they are now, because they were expected to have enough saved up to set up a household before they got married, which could easily be their late '20s.
    That expectation hasn't entirely gone away. For all of the millennial men living with their parents, it may be fiscally responsible given the size of their paychecks, but it's also a massive damper on their dating lives. As I touched on in the Incel thread, there's not a lot of positive representation of that behavior out there. A guy living with his parents in any movie or TV show or book is going to be the butt of many jokes for having that arrangement.

    Living at home puts a damper on your dating just because it makes the question of "So where are we gonna fuck?" a lot harder to answer.

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