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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] My Better Brexit Deal Goes To Another School

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Posts

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Hopefully we'll get a repeat of Gove planning to back Boris until oh wait he's not backing Boris and Boris isn't running, because that was hilarious last time.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • BogartBogart Because I hate you Registered User, Moderator mod
    Possibly Gove has actually realised no one likes him enough to make winning a genuine possibility. Then again, coming to terms with his limitations has never been his strong suit, so.

    I missed the Brexit debate on Channel 4, but from what I can gather from reports Barry Gardiner essentially continued Labour's policy of dismissing the ludicrous unicorn promised by the arch Tory Brexiteers and instead counselled people to bet on their definitely real and totally different unicorn.

    H3Knuckles
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    This is unfair, everyone knows that the tory unicorn can't exist. Labour are promising a pegasus, which is clearly different and much better

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  • pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    It's being reported in a lot of places that tomorrow's meaningful vote might be cancelled, despite Number 10's repeated insistence that it's 100% happening.

    If the vote doesn't happen, that's got to be Labour's cue for a no-confidence motion, surely? There's even time in the diary tomorrow...

  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    There are reports (from the BBC's Laura K) that May's pulling the vote tomorrow.

    This week is going to be crazy.

  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Oh, is May going to kick the Brexit can down the road again?

    Fucking quelle surprise.

    Meanwhile..


    (Sky News)

    Bad-Beat on
    Youtube
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
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  • BogartBogart Because I hate you Registered User, Moderator mod
    Vote delayed to one minute to midnight on March 29th.

    monikerVerdigristynicLiiyaFencingsaxLoisLaneShadowenH3KnucklesTNTrooper
  • pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    We leave at 11pm, so that's probably accurate.

    Mojo_Jojo[Expletive deleted]JazzSnicketysnickBurnageRhesus PositiveAldoForarmonikershrykeDark Raven XSleeptynicFencingsaxElldrenLoisLaneShadowenH3KnucklesSkeithNiryaMoridin889
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    You can quite easily make the case that we don't have a functioning Government at the moment.

    When a Government can't win the backing of Parliament for their primary piece of legislation (which is what this vote is) then they simply don't command the house.

    Look at last week, three crucial votes lost, including being found in Contempt (unprecedented). And now this, postponing a vote that looked set to be the biggest defeat for a Government in decades, if not ever.

    Unless they promised May something over the weekend, the EU has been clear they would not re-negotiate the Agreement. So why delay? The vote must happen at some point and better sooner than later to give time for any potential alternatives. Too often this Government have opted for the easy path, instead of the correct path. All to simply preserve the integrity of the Party. But that tactic cannot last forever. Time will run out.

    How the Conservatives aren't facing a generation in opposition is perhaps the most staggering question amongst all this chaos.

    JazzSolaraltidjaziekCasualmonikershrykeCommander ZoomSleepFencingsaxElldrenH3KnucklesSporkAndrew
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    There has to be a vote to pull the meaningful vote

    Which, in the present circumstances, the government might lose, meaning the vote could go ahead anyway, barring procedural nonsense like talking it out

    SolarElldrenH3Knuckles
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    You can quite easily make the case that we don't have a functioning Government at the moment.

    When a Government can't win the backing of Parliament for their primary piece of legislation (which is what this vote is) then they simply don't command the house.

    Look at last week, three crucial votes lost, including being found in Contempt (unprecedented). And now this, postponing a vote that looked set to be the biggest defeat for a Government in decades, if not ever.

    Unless they promised May something over the weekend, the EU has been clear they would not re-negotiate the Agreement. So why delay? The vote must happen at some point and better sooner than later to give time for any potential alternatives. Too often this Government have opted for the easy path, instead of the correct path. All to simply preserve the integrity of the Party. But that tactic cannot last forever. Time will run out.

    How the Conservatives aren't facing a generation in opposition is perhaps the most staggering question amongst all this chaos.

    All it would take is for someone, anyone, vaguely competent to take the reins of the opposition.

    Steam ||| SC2 - Jaziek.377 on EU & NA. ||| Twitch Stream
    altidCommander ZoomFencingsaxYoutubeGnome-Interruptus
  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    You can quite easily make the case that we don't have a functioning Government at the moment.

    When a Government can't win the backing of Parliament for their primary piece of legislation (which is what this vote is) then they simply don't command the house.

    Look at last week, three crucial votes lost, including being found in Contempt (unprecedented). And now this, postponing a vote that looked set to be the biggest defeat for a Government in decades, if not ever.

    Unless they promised May something over the weekend, the EU has been clear they would not re-negotiate the Agreement. So why delay? The vote must happen at some point and better sooner than later to give time for any potential alternatives. Too often this Government have opted for the easy path, instead of the correct path. All to simply preserve the integrity of the Party. But that tactic cannot last forever. Time will run out.

    How the Conservatives aren't facing a generation in opposition is perhaps the most staggering question amongst all this chaos.

    All it would take is for someone, anyone, vaguely competent to take the reins of the opposition.

    yeah good luck with that

    Commander ZoomSleepFencingsaxH3KnucklesYoutube
  • JazzJazz UKRegistered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    You can quite easily make the case that we don't have a functioning Government at the moment.

    When a Government can't win the backing of Parliament for their primary piece of legislation (which is what this vote is) then they simply don't command the house.

    Look at last week, three crucial votes lost, including being found in Contempt (unprecedented). And now this, postponing a vote that looked set to be the biggest defeat for a Government in decades, if not ever.

    Unless they promised May something over the weekend, the EU has been clear they would not re-negotiate the Agreement. So why delay? The vote must happen at some point and better sooner than later to give time for any potential alternatives. Too often this Government have opted for the easy path, instead of the correct path. All to simply preserve the integrity of the Party. But that tactic cannot last forever. Time will run out.

    How the Conservatives aren't facing a generation in opposition is perhaps the most staggering question amongst all this chaos.

    All it would take is for someone, anyone, vaguely competent to take the reins of the opposition.

    Well, shit.

    shrykeCommander ZoomFencingsaxElldrenH3Knuckles
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Theresa May's clever politicking, December 2018, Colourised:

    JusticeforPlutoFencingsaxElldrenShadowenH3Knuckles
  • Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    steam_sig.png
    moniker
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Parliamentary Sovereignty feels pretty respected right now.

    H3Knuckles
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Possibly Gove has actually realised no one likes him enough to make winning a genuine possibility. Then again, coming to terms with his limitations has never been his strong suit, so.

    I missed the Brexit debate on Channel 4, but from what I can gather from reports Barry Gardiner essentially continued Labour's policy of dismissing the ludicrous unicorn promised by the arch Tory Brexiteers and instead counselled people to bet on their definitely real and totally different unicorn.

    You need to be liked to win? Why didn't anybody ever tell the previous people that!

    Fencingsax
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    So is she pushing it back to the literal eleventh hour, or will she try and just assert it as ratified somehow.

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Jazz wrote: »
    Press Association reporter:



    Just... what the hell.

    And perhaps just as bad as this guy is the guy standing next to him wearing an N7 coat. Makes me feel ashamed by association (I wear my N7 hoodie a lot). Do we even need to take N7 back from fascists now? What the hell is wrong with the world?

    (I know the guy may not be on the same side. But I hold out little hope.)

    It's about ethics in EU negotiations.

    No no ethnics not ethics

    11793-1.png
    day9gosu.png
    QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Nicola Sturgeon taking a turn at just saying things out loud today

    DevoutlyApatheticmrondeauJazzmonikershrykenever dieDark Raven XtynicFencingsaxElldrenShadowenH3KnucklesSkeithTNTrooperYoutubeFryGnome-Interruptus
  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    So I guess Labour's line is this is the worst of all world deal? (Corbyn is the leader if the Opposition)


    Are they really claiming May's deal is worse than no deal Brexit?

    And shouldn't he just call for no confidence if he wants control?

    PantsB on
    11793-1.png
    day9gosu.png
    QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Meanwhile across the pond: Dutch govt agency calculated that a No Deal Brexit will cost the Dutch government €2.3bn per year in additional taxes to the EU and investments in border checks. Total budget is €300bn. Dutch govt and businesses currently prepare for No Deal.

    On the one hand I am done with the British antics, on the other hand... Yo that's a lot of money.

    Aldo on
    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
    Youtube
  • BogartBogart Because I hate you Registered User, Moderator mod
    A vote of no confidence needs some Tories to back it in order for it to pass. It also needs everyone on the Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, PC, etc benches to all back it and none of them to decide, as Kate Hoey might, that they're vote against or abstain.

    I think Corbyn's determination to not campaign for a second vote ensures that public support for one remains edgy, as no one in a major visible leadership role is prominently arguing for one. You're a leader now, you cretinous fossil. You're supposed to lead opinion, not timidly scuff your shoes and trail along behind it.

    altidJazzmonikerSolarshrykeSnicketysnickFencingsaxElldrenH3KnucklesSkeith
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    This is another of those instances where May, as torrid a time as she's having, is actually getting kind of an easy ride from Labour.

    Corbyn's proposals are impossible to take seriously, and nobody seems really sure if this is more "constructive ambiguity" or if they really don't have any idea what to propose as a credible alternative.

    I've a feeling that Sturgeon tweet is really just a prod to Labour to actually take a stance.

    danxFencingsaxH3KnucklesYoutube
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    corbyn in any case said yesterday he would probably try to no confidence as a response to the gov cancelling the vote

    but he wont trigger it until he thinks it will work

    obF2Wuw.png
  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    And shouldn't he just call for no confidence if he wants control?
    To take a super cynical viewpoint for a moment, he wants Brexit to go through, just under Tory control. He wants out of the EU, but he knows it's going to be awful either way, so it's better if he can pin its fallout on the Tories. No Confidence and a GE seeing Labour victorious right now means that he has to be the one to pull Brexit off, and that's still a unicorn. But as long as, once the country burns and there are ashes to rule, he can point at his record of telling the public, "her deal is crap and we could've done so much better if only you'd voted us in," he'll have the kudos of Being Right All Along (which is how his fanbase got him into power in Labour). This way, the post-Brexit breakdown shifts the polls from Tory to the only other option in our wonderful FPTP system (whereas at the moment, he probably wouldn't win in a GE, hilarious as that is, but after we've actually experienced Brexit the hatred for Theresa May will be ripe for harvest), and he gets to be the saviour.

    So he'll object right up to the point of No Confidence, but like a pub brawler yelling, "hold me back lads, I'm gonna bash his brains in," while his friends bemusedly stand back making no such effort as he impotently beats his chest, he's never actually going to do the deed, he just wants to look the part.

    mrondeauCommander ZoomFencingsaxShadowenH3KnucklesGnome-Interruptus
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular


    conservative mp

    procedural nonsense because gov has other ways to stop but if parliament really wants to do this they can be incredibly difficult. fuck it find the gov in contempt again. find the pm in contempt. find THEMSELVES in contempt. go for it parliament

    obF2Wuw.png
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  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    I've a feeling that Sturgeon tweet is really just a prod to Labour to actually take a stance.
    It could be any number of things, but the fact she chose to tweet it rather than (or possibly, at the same time as) organising a private meeting with Labour means the primary purpose is for it to be a public talking point.

    RMS OceanicJazzCaptain InertiaaltidmonikershrykeShadow Demonnever dietynicElldrenFencingsaxShadowenH3Knuckles
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    It really does feel like a breaking point. It would have been a career ending defeat from what the rumours suggest and she may not even be able to pull the vote! It isn't a sustainable position.

    The problem with a no confidence vote, as Bogart indicated, is that it needs the tories to vote for something other than saving their own skins and the chances of that are slim to none. If somebody competent was in charge of Labour then maybe you could convince enough of them that a spell of opposition and rebuilding would be best for them, but with Corbyn they'll avoid it at all costs. They'd much rather select another PM from their own ranks without the risk of the public chucking them out.

    Since May ought to go as a result of this (but likely won't), I'd like to highlight once again the single biggest fuckup made throughout this whole sorry affair - activating Article 50. It was clear at the time, and more so now, that there was no possible way to be even halfway prepared within the 2 year limit. Starting the clock removed any chance of proper preparation. It also removed political "wiggle room" - options to delay, stall for time, argue reasoned positions, make actual preparations and to allow for reasoned discussions on where the public actually wanted to go. The only purpose of activating A50 was to drive through as hard as possible a Brexit before public opinion could change. She hung this Albatross around her own neck.

    BethrynElldrenFencingsaxH3Knuckles
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    So I guess Labour's line is this is the worst of all world deal? (Corbyn is the leader if the Opposition)


    Are they really claiming May's deal is worse than no deal Brexit?

    And shouldn't he just call for no confidence if he wants control?

    It's pretty clear that he's not claiming that May's deal is worse than no-deal. I'd say May's deal is probably the worst of both worlds in the sense that it sets the UK up about as far away from the EU as possible without utterly breaking various things, while not exactly getting a whole lot that I'd consider important in return. Norway would be better, and not leaving the EU would be the best, but that's just me. OTOH by those same criteria it's also the best Brexit deal that could be negotiated that won't burn everything down, assuming you're the brexiting type.

    Of course what Corbyn is really saying is that May's deal is worse than the super magic deal that Labour would be able to negotiate somehow.

    JuliusElldrenFencingsax
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    mays deal is basically the least damaging of medium-hard brexit future settlement and gov decisions depending (could be arbitrarily hard once norn ireland border sorted), but because the hard brexiters know they will not have policy control and think it is impossible to deal with northern ireland border in a way the eu will be happy with they think it is a trick and want a no deal instead

    which is cosmically funny in a sense.

    obF2Wuw.png
    BethrynElldren
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    So May absolutely ruled out delaying the vote, and now she's delaying the vote.
    May has absolutely ruled out having another people's vote, so when should we schedule that for?

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    FencingsaxShadowenH3Knuckles
  • PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    So I guess Labour's line is this is the worst of all world deal? (Corbyn is the leader if the Opposition)


    Are they really claiming May's deal is worse than no deal Brexit?

    And shouldn't he just call for no confidence if he wants control?

    It's Worst of All Worldss. By staying in the EU, the UK enjoys the current special privileges it currently has but doesn't gain any Sovereignty (TM). No Deal Brexit means you lose those special privileges but gain Sovereignty (TM). May's deal means you both lose those special privileges and you don't really gain any Sovereignty (TM). Sure, you might not destroy the economy with May's deal, but that's strictly worse than staying in the EU.

    Unfortunately Corbyn is still pretending that there is some theoretical deal that the EU will negotiate that isn't strictly worse than the current one (without breaching the GFA). There is no Norway+, there is no Canada+. You can stay in the EU, you can break the economy, or you can give up those advantages to say that you Did Something.

    JuliusElldrenFencingsax
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Sovereignty and an empty sack is worth the sack.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    RMS OceanicCommander ZoomSolarRhesus PositivetynicdanxElldrenFencingsaxShadowenH3KnucklesArdol
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Aldo wrote: »
    Meanwhile across the pond: Dutch govt agency calculated that a No Deal Brexit will cost the Dutch government €2.3bn per year in additional taxes to the EU and investments in border checks. Total budget is €300bn. Dutch govt and businesses currently prepare for No Deal.

    On the one hand I am done with the British antics, on the other hand... Yo that's a lot of money.

    That's not what across the pond means!
    :P

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    It really does feel like a breaking point. It would have been a career ending defeat from what the rumours suggest and she may not even be able to pull the vote! It isn't a sustainable position.

    The problem with a no confidence vote, as Bogart indicated, is that it needs the tories to vote for something other than saving their own skins and the chances of that are slim to none. If somebody competent was in charge of Labour then maybe you could convince enough of them that a spell of opposition and rebuilding would be best for them, but with Corbyn they'll avoid it at all costs. They'd much rather select another PM from their own ranks without the risk of the public chucking them out.

    Since May ought to go as a result of this (but likely won't), I'd like to highlight once again the single biggest fuckup made throughout this whole sorry affair - activating Article 50. It was clear at the time, and more so now, that there was no possible way to be even halfway prepared within the 2 year limit. Starting the clock removed any chance of proper preparation. It also removed political "wiggle room" - options to delay, stall for time, argue reasoned positions, make actual preparations and to allow for reasoned discussions on where the public actually wanted to go. The only purpose of activating A50 was to drive through as hard as possible a Brexit before public opinion could change. She hung this Albatross around her own neck.

    Didn't Corbyn 3-line-whip that vote?

    ElldrenH3KnucklesYoutube
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This discussion has been closed.