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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] My Better Brexit Deal Goes To Another School

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Posts

  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie regular Registered User regular
    edited February 18
    Elldren wrote: »
    I’m not saying the Labour Party has become a cesspool of division and abuse, but this tweet from Guardian columnist and Labour pundit Owen Jones is from yesterday. He’d launched into full attack mode before anyone had even announced anything.


    Do you mind terribly if I say that?

    I think there’s an entire online community saying it by now, and they’re not all “centrists” either. Some of my die hard leftie pals are very, very unhappy today.

    Desktop Hippie on

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Calls for by-elections are plentiful. There's absolutely zero prospect of any of the 7 agreeing to one.

    SolarElldren
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat regular Registered User regular
    A lot of people seem to be very blinkered in today's developments and need to step outside themselves, if they can.

    Blaming the victim, i.e. Luciana Berger, rather than the proponents of the abuse is an incredibly awful stance to take but I'm not surprised by it.

    Elldren
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    angela smith and chris leslie are both brain-free zones, chuka at least has charisma and is a loss, but the real problem is berger; she makes it almost impossible to deny the party has problems. on the other hand this will last 1day before B A C K T O B R E X I T

    obF2Wuw.png
    Casual
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    I think the oh what losers comments from Owen Jones and the like will studiously avoid mentioning Berger and hope no one notices. I'm betting they'll steer of Mike Gapes as well, a 25 year backbench MP who's no one's idea of an opportunist or a careerist.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    yeah problem is nobody has heard of him either so while it is genuinely indicative from an objective point of view nobody cares

    obF2Wuw.png
    BogartDesktop HippieElldren
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII regular Registered User regular
    It's difficult, whilst I applaud them for doing something about the crap that's been going on it'll also split the non Tory vote (though most have big margins).

    It'll also mean a concentration of Corbyn nutters in the party.

  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    Will they even run in another election? Will the next election see them invited back into the party to run if there's a change of leadership which extends a hand after a massively crippling post-Brexit reconstitution of the party?

    I mean, Ed Milliband said it and it's absolutely true; the script isn't written. We don't know what will happen. We don't know what is coming. It's all looking very chaotic and who knows what the post Brexit world will be? If we no deal that could see consequences like major parties falling into nothing etc. Maybe they feel like they can do more outside of the party... and they're quite possibly right

  • SharpyVIISharpyVII regular Registered User regular
    Rumours abound that Honda will announce tomorrow that it's shutting it's Swindon plant in 2022:

    https://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    I think they wouldn't go back to Labour without a change of leadership and a wholesale expulsion of large numbers of anti-semitic members and some sort of proof that cases were being dealt with in such a way as to quash such behaviour, and not give it tacit approval. But yes, you're absolutely right that no one knows what's going to happen.

    Elldren
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat regular Registered User regular
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    Rumours abound that Honda will announce tomorrow that it's shutting it's Swindon plant in 2022:

    https://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

    This is how you frame your rationale for trying to get free of Labour and the Conservatives. Neither party is working in the best interests of the country and stories like this are a direct consequence of that.

    It requires MPs to step away from the tradition parties so that they can do what's best for the country, and the economy before it's too late.

    Elldren
  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    It feels like we're losing thousands of jobs a week (announced, the losses are in the future) and the government is completely lacking any kind of policy whatsoever

    And now the Opposition is tearing into itself

    Well this just fucking sucks

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Angela Smith already making friends for the new party by referring to people of colour by saying "it’s not just about being black or a funny tinge ... you know, a different... from the BAME community".

    Sterling work.

    shryketynicShadowenFry
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat regular Registered User regular
    Ah, so that lasted 4 hours. Terrific.

    Back to work everyone.

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Guardian media blog.
    George Galloway has written to the Labour party to ask to be readmitted as a member in light of the resignation of seven MPs this morning.

    I would imagine this would trigger another tranche of people leaving.

  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    It feels like we're losing thousands of jobs a week (announced, the losses are in the future) and the government is completely lacking any kind of policy whatsoever

    And now the Opposition is tearing into itself

    Well this just fucking sucks

    To be fair they might be Opposition in name but they certainly aren't opposition in practice

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
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  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat regular Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Guardian media blog.
    George Galloway has written to the Labour party to ask to be readmitted as a member in light of the resignation of seven MPs this morning.

    I would imagine this would trigger another tranche of people leaving.

    Everyone within the movement seems to want to bring Labour back to the 1980s, so this would fit the bill nicely.

    ElldrenH3Knuckles
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie regular Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »

    Sky News are also reporting that Swindon’s MP is blaming “global trends” and absolutely not the tragically mismanaged chaos of Brexit.


    Youtube
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Brexit is part of a global trend you knob.

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Hahaha yeah good luck with that one, mate. He was for Brexit, as I recall. Now he has to convince everyone who's losing their job that the thing he said to vote for isn't the reason it's happening.

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  • SharpyVIISharpyVII regular Registered User regular
    edited February 18
    People genuinely arguing in the comments that this isn't to do with Brexit but with Japan being able to build cars tarriff free in Japan due to the new FTA signed with the EU.

    THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO MOVE OUT OF THE UK IF WE WEREN'T LEAVING THE EU!?!!1



    Faisal is a Sky correspondent and has a good timeline of all the comments made by Japanese car makers over the last year and their concerns re Brexit.

    SharpyVII on
  • kaidkaid regular Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »

    Telling foreigners to get out and then the foreigners take their stuff with them is totally unexpected.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva regular Registered User regular
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    People genuinely arguing in the comments that this isn't to do with Brexit but with Japan being able to build cars tarriff free in Japan due to the new FTA signed with the EU.

    THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO MOVE OUT OF THE UK IF WE WEREN'T LEAVING THE EU!?!!1



    Faisal is a Sky correspondent and has a good timeline of all the comments made by Japanese car makers over the last year and their concerns re Brexit.

    Right? Its like if only there were some way to make cars to sell to the EU in the UK tarriff free... Some sort of common market.. maybe someone could look into that.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    It feels like we're losing thousands of jobs a week (announced, the losses are in the future) and the government is completely lacking any kind of policy whatsoever

    And now the Opposition is tearing into itself

    Well this just fucking sucks

    It's not like the Opposition was doing anything before now. Might as well tear themselves apart if they aren't gonna do anything else useful.

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular


    you see when we put tariffs on the eu they pay them but then they put tariffs on us they pay them too, so really no deal is the best because we get to not only have our cake and eat it but theirs too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and nobody will impose tariffs on us anyway because thats economic self harm, and

    obF2Wuw.png
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat regular Registered User regular
    I don't agree with Justin Tomlinson in that tweet but I do believe there is more to this news than just Brexit (although Brexit plays a huge part in what's happening).

    Japanese cars produced in the EU (predominantly small/mid sized cars) are in a very competitive market in the EU. This puts a lot of pressure on Japanese car makers, especially Honda and Nissan because they have direct competition with the likes of Volkswagen, Renault, Peugeot etc. Not to mention stricter controls on CO2 emissions, diesel controls etc. It's therefore no surprise that it is Honda and Nissan who have had to reduce their operations in Britain recently. The market is getting harder and harder to grow within, and it is requiring substantial investment in new technologies (electric vehicles, for example) to secure continued growth.

    With the EU/Japan trade deal secured, the need for Japanese firms to have a large manufacturing base in the EU may begin to diminish as the tariff reductions take effect in the coming years. When you then introduce the added complication of your previous EU base coming out of the EU (Britain), the case for continuing your operations in the EU directly shrinks further. Why would you manufacture your cars in a country which may have import tariffs imposed on it, when you could manufacture them in Japan wholesale, which will eventually have zero tariffs? Brexit does nothing to alleviate any concerns Japanese car manufacturers may have about continuing their operations in Britain or the EU. All Britain can do is offer some kind of incentive to companies to try and bribe them to stay, relocate here. e.g. subsidised manufacturing costs, tax breaks etc. Which is probably what was in those confidential letters to specific companies back in 2016. But the political ramifications of that kind of activity must be poisonous. "We need to bribe companies otherwise they won't stay because Brexit is bad for the economy".

    Against the Brexit backdrop, the trade deal will almost certainly alleviate a lot of the pressure on Japanese car makers, who previously had to secure Operations in the EU in order to benefit from the market. Without that pressure, they have the option to consolidate their manufacturing capabilities, most likely back in Japan and keep operating costs lower as a price per unit, allowing them to invest in the technologies that will secure their growth in years to come.

    The Japanese car industry is such a perfect microcosm of why the EU works, and how Britain benefits. Although it isn't the full story, to pretend that Brexit will have no direct effect on our economy is dangerous at best.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    yes car industry in general is eating dirt right now

    uk specifically has a particular problem tho - we have about 3/4 of us productivity per worker and they arent very good relative to eu, the uk is remarkably low productivity. key to being favoured by foreign manufacturers was 1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    obF2Wuw.png
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat regular Registered User regular
    1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    Which it's why it's so fucking delusional that Brexiteers are saying to Ireland: "Hey, you need to leave the EU otherwise you'll suffer without us". And Ireland are just sitting there, patiently ready to fill the anglo-void that Britain are leaving behind.

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  • pezgenpezgen regular Registered User regular
    It's like the Flybmi news the other day - yes, the company has been in trouble for a while, so citing Brexit as the only issue is inaccurate. But the additional difficulties and uncertainty around Brexit mean that decisions might be taken that could have gone another way. The more of these we see, the harder it is to say "look at all the many and varied non-Brexit reasons people aren't investing in Britain".

    (That's what the sane people will say, obvs. The Brexiteers will be doing their best ostrich impressions.)

    ElldrenH3KnucklesGnome-Interruptus
  • MayabirdMayabird regular Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    Which it's why it's so fucking delusional that Brexiteers are saying to Ireland: "Hey, you need to leave the EU otherwise you'll suffer without us". And Ireland are just sitting there, patiently ready to fill the anglo-void that Britain are leaving behind.

    Also the Irish know that what the Brexiteers are actually saying is, "We demand you peasants become our colony again to make our English lives easier!"

    Commander ZoomH3Knuckles
  • TubeTube admin Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Chuka Umana has always been a dope so seeing him at the head of a dopey scheme is never a surprise.

    Hobnail wrote: »
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    This hurts but I deserve it

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  • Dis'Dis' regular Registered User regular
    yes car industry in general is eating dirt right now

    uk specifically has a particular problem tho - we have about 3/4 of us productivity per worker and they arent very good relative to eu, the uk is remarkably low productivity. key to being favoured by foreign manufacturers was 1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    I mean its pretty easy to spot where we feel off the productivity wagon:

    FT graph
    57zuzk4p1dud.png

    *Something* happened in 2008 and we dealt with it in the stupid and shambolic manner we will now be famous for.

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Chuka Umana has always been a dope so seeing him at the head of a dopey scheme is never a surprise.

    I dunno, in recent years he was one of the only sane voices in the room?

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  • BurnageBurnage irregular Registered User regular
    Dis' wrote: »
    yes car industry in general is eating dirt right now

    uk specifically has a particular problem tho - we have about 3/4 of us productivity per worker and they arent very good relative to eu, the uk is remarkably low productivity. key to being favoured by foreign manufacturers was 1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    I mean its pretty easy to spot where we feel off the productivity wagon:

    FT graph
    57zuzk4p1dud.png

    *Something* happened in 2008 and we dealt with it in the stupid and shambolic manner we will now be famous for.

    We never really recovered from the financial crisis, did we? I mean, for a while it sure felt like we did. Things picked up again. Maybe not entirely, but they definitely seemed like they were improving from my comfortable approximately middle class vantage point.

    But Brexit is basically a direct consequence of 2008, and it's going to fuck us for a generation.

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited February 18
    Dis' wrote: »
    yes car industry in general is eating dirt right now

    uk specifically has a particular problem tho - we have about 3/4 of us productivity per worker and they arent very good relative to eu, the uk is remarkably low productivity. key to being favoured by foreign manufacturers was 1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    I mean its pretty easy to spot where we feel off the productivity wagon:

    FT graph
    57zuzk4p1dud.png

    *Something* happened in 2008 and we dealt with it in the stupid and shambolic manner we will now be famous for.

    we were low globally even before fin crisis

    weve been a low productivity economy for a while (although yes the trend worsens in 2008)

    md3mmy0inxph.png

    EDIT: and the picture gets worse if u just look at manufacturing productivity

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    Dis' wrote: »
    yes car industry in general is eating dirt right now

    uk specifically has a particular problem tho - we have about 3/4 of us productivity per worker and they arent very good relative to eu, the uk is remarkably low productivity. key to being favoured by foreign manufacturers was 1) english language with access to eu and 2) incredibly stable gov and regulatory regime, and 2 is now out the window...

    I mean its pretty easy to spot where we feel off the productivity wagon:

    FT graph
    57zuzk4p1dud.png

    *Something* happened in 2008 and we dealt with it in the stupid and shambolic manner we will now be famous for.

    We never really recovered from the financial crisis, did we? I mean, for a while it sure felt like we did. Things picked up again. Maybe not entirely, but they definitely seemed like they were improving from my comfortable approximately middle class vantage point.

    But Brexit is basically a direct consequence of 2008, and it's going to fuck us for a generation.

    Laurie Penny wrote an excellent piece tying together austerity and Brexit:
    The Tories sold out the British people and then made the mistake of giving them one real chance to make their feelings known – and, well, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like David Cameron’s face.

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  • SolarSolar regular Registered User regular
    It's really, really hard not to feel a sense of grim vindictiveness about these industry closures in places that overwhelmingly voted to leave, I have to say.

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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited February 18
    Prohass wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »


    The official account of Labour's youth wing there. They're taking it well, and certainly reflecting on why this happened with thoughtful maturity.

    Jesus Christ where do they think they are? The jungles of Columbia?

    How can this be the alternative to the Right?

    It's the lyrics to the Red Flag which is sung at the end of every Labour Conferance since time immemorial.

    Alistair Hutton on
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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    It's really, really hard not to feel a sense of grim vindictiveness about these industry closures in places that overwhelmingly voted to leave, I have to say.

    Its also perfectly possibly most the people who are going to lose their jobs were part of the 45% of the constituency that voted to stay.

    Nothings cut and dry in Brexit.

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