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US Govt Shutdown 2018: It's a Trump Christmas Shutdown!

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Posts

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Declaring an emergency to do what you shut the government down for weeks trying to do is going to be hard to sell in court.
    Especially if he makes an effort to leave the government shut down.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Duke 2.0 wrote: »

    You know I actually kind of want him to do this, so that when the next natural disaster hits and they can't respond to it trump has to explain to people that their town being devestated is a small price to pay to ensure that there is slightly more fencing along the southern border that will kieep hypothetical hispanics from sneaking across. Mission accomplished!

    He already left Puerto Rico to suffer, and insulted and lied about them when they went "This is unacceptable! Help!"

    He definitely won't give two shits if getting his wall takes money away from people in need.

    I'd imagine it's a different kettle of fish when trump has to tell people in florida who got smashed by a hurricane that they get to live in squalor because his wall was more important then their homes and families.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Declaring an emergency to do what you shut the government down for weeks trying to do is going to be hard to sell in court.

    Especially if he makes an effort to leave the government shut down.

    For a President looking to flex emergency powers, a lengthy enough shutdown could generate additional emergencies to declare. Mildly concerning. Especially with a Republican Senate that, three weeks in, still largely looks ready to go down with the ship.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Declaring an emergency to do what you shut the government down for weeks trying to do is going to be hard to sell in court.

    Especially if he makes an effort to leave the government shut down.

    For a President looking to flex emergency powers, a lengthy enough shutdown could generate additional emergencies to declare. Mildly concerning. Especially with a Republican Senate that, three weeks in, still largely looks ready to go down with the ship.

    The new Congress has only been in existence for 7 days.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    7 days of not getting exactly what he wants after an election where his party lost control of the House to the tune of 40 seats.
    He's going to declare an emergency and steal money from the Army Corps of Engineers that was meant for projects all over the country.
    For walls on like 1/7th of the border.
    And his party is just going to along with it.

    I remember when President Obama signed an Executive Order, and these same people lost their shit screaming and yelling on the House and Senate floors about monarchy and tyranny.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Declaring an emergency to do what you shut the government down for weeks trying to do is going to be hard to sell in court.

    Especially if he makes an effort to leave the government shut down.

    For a President looking to flex emergency powers, a lengthy enough shutdown could generate additional emergencies to declare. Mildly concerning. Especially with a Republican Senate that, three weeks in, still largely looks ready to go down with the ship.

    The new Congress has only been in existence for 7 days.

    Of course. I made literally the same argument four days ago. Except I said three days.

    In the interim I’ve been unimpressed by response from the Senate, which gained (R) seats, has the same leadership, and puts largely the same faces on camera to fight the good fight as they did eight days ago.

    I honestly expected to see them cracking more by now. We see the White House starting to crack, but that’s only if you assume the “state of emergency” comes with a side of “and I’ll sign the CR.” If it doesn’t...

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    Okay, I've got to ask... is the ANY evidence that Trump or his admin even considering using emergency powers for the borderwall prior to that one reporter asking about it?

    Undead Scottsman on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Okay, I've got to ask... is the ANY evidence that Trump or his admin even considering using emergency powers for the borderwall prior to that one reporter asking about it?

    I believe Trump himself has blustered about how he could do it if he wants. Not cast iron proof, but the concept definitely exists in his head.

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Okay, I've got to ask... is the ANY evidence that Trump or his admin even considering using emergency powers for the borderwall prior to that one reporter asking about it?

    One of the big give aways, is that everyone in the admin and the repubs in congress have started uses the word "crisis" every other sentence. They are trying to lay the rhetorical ground work to argue this is an emergency.

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  • TuminTumin Registered User regular
    Saying that you'll declare an emergency if you don't get funding for an infrastructure project like this seems like exactly what someone suing you over the definition of "emergency" would want.

    It's unfortunate that Congress doesn't seem to have defined "emergency" in the relevant statutes but the absence of a definition doesn't mean the courts will decide it means whatever the POTUS wanrs, there must be limits. If the word "emergency" means something, every day that goes by where he punts the issue weakens his case for border crossings being an emergency.

    Though I am sure they can find a judge to rule just about whatever they want, I am hopeful that they're a bit stuck now.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    In 9 days the Judiciary runs out of money and will start having to furlough staff and work without paychecks.

    I doubt that will endear them to his arguments.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Wouldn't one of the main lawsuit arguments be, "If you felt there was an emergency why didn't you just declare it instead of wait on a quid pro quo arrangement?"

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    We thought it was a slam dunk on the Muslim ban getting knocked down because Trump outright called it a Muslim ban, kept calling it a ban, and Guilliani was out there going "We're looking for a way to make it legal" where "it" was making sure a lot less Muslims traveled to the country.

    And SCOTUS is even MORE conservative now.

    Dont put your faith in the courts preventing this travesty.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    We thought it was a slam dunk on the Muslim ban getting knocked down because Trump outright called it a Muslim ban, kept calling it a ban, and Guilliani was out there going "We're looking for a way to make it legal" where "it" was making sure a lot less Muslims traveled to the country.

    And SCOTUS is even MORE conservative now.

    Dont put your faith in the courts preventing this travesty.

    They re-wrote that Executive Order 3 times in order to give it a fig leaf. I do not believe they can re-declare a disaster that has an injunction.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    I see Trump going for the emergency powers AND not ending the shutdown until Dems grovel.

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    Trump may have come up with a new plan to fund his wall: Steal the money from funds usually sent to help victims of natural disasters in the United States.


    Fox confirms WH directs Army Corps of Engineers to see if it can divert money to border wall from disaster funding bill to cover wildfires in California, hurricanes in Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico

    Chad Pergram covers Congress for FOX News.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Can the Army Corps of Engineers say no?

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Is it starting to look like at this point Trump's insistence of ALWAYS DOUBLE DOWN has got him into a trap he can't back out of?

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Is it starting to look like at this point Trump's insistence of ALWAYS DOUBLE DOWN has got him into a trap he can't back out of?

    He originally was gonna back down, but Fox news basically called him a coward over and over so he immediately went full lockdown

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited January 10
    While Fox had a big hand, I doubt this would be happening without the Freedom Caucus.

    Also don't forget Rush.

    rahkeesh2000 on
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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    While Fox had a big hand, I doubt this would be happening without the Freedom Caucus.

    Also don't forget Rush.

    If you drew a venn diagram these would just be a single circle in reality.

    Fox was created out of Rush. The Freedom Caucus comes from Fox.

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    While Fox had a big hand, I doubt this would be happening without the Freedom Caucus.

    Also don't forget Rush.

    If you drew a venn diagram these would just be a single circle in reality.

    Fox was created out of Rush. The Freedom Caucus comes from Fox.

    Granted but its worth pointing out that there were some actual elected politicians pushing Trump in this direction, not just talking heads.

    Even if whats inside their heads isn't all that different.

    rahkeesh2000 on
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Is it starting to look like at this point Trump's insistence of ALWAYS DOUBLE DOWN has got him into a trap he can't back out of?

    Until the Senate is willing to hold him accountable, this is not a trap of any kind. It's just another abuse of power/power grab.

    It's only a trap if he faces consequences for it.

    That said, I will not stop laughing until I die if a Fox news narrative that convinced him to shut down the government ends up being the thing that finally shatters the GOP lockstep behind him. (and presumably ends up shattering the GOP in general)

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Can the Army Corps of Engineers say no?

    I would think that depends on how the budget line items were written. Typical federal budget items are actually fairly specific about what the money is to be spent on. He can probably order them to build whatever in a "national emergency", but I would think it would be paid for like an unbudgeted expense, like what Bush did with the Iraq/Afganistan wars, rather than being able to repurpose the existing funds.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    We've been through this before.

    Trump does something unthinkable, the GOP pop their monocles out in shock until they come up with a flimsy justifucation that lets them do nothing to stop it, and Trump dies it and gets away with it.

    Except we're at the point where they're just dropping all pretense and advocating for Trump to just go ahead do the unthinkable. They've recognized the pattern and are just skipping to the end now.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think now might be the time for Pelosi and Schumer to bring up the fact that they have the votes to override a veto. McConnell is hiding behind a veto so he doesn't have to acknowledge responsibility for this mess, and I think it's time to shine some light on him.

    "You have 100 votes for this bill, Mitch. It only takes 67 to kill a veto. Why don't you want to end this shutdown and stop the unnecessary suffering of millions of people, Mitch?"

    You need two-thirds of both chambers. They don't have the votes to override a veto in the House

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    We've been through this before.

    Trump does something unthinkable, the GOP pop their monocles out in shock until they come up with a flimsy justifucation that lets them do nothing to stop it, and Trump dies it and gets away with it.

    Except we're at the point where they're just dropping all pretense and advocating for Trump to just go ahead do the unthinkable. They've recognized the pattern and are just skipping to the end now.

    Meanwhile Grover Norquist is off shopping for bathtubs.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think now might be the time for Pelosi and Schumer to bring up the fact that they have the votes to override a veto. McConnell is hiding behind a veto so he doesn't have to acknowledge responsibility for this mess, and I think it's time to shine some light on him.

    "You have 100 votes for this bill, Mitch. It only takes 67 to kill a veto. Why don't you want to end this shutdown and stop the unnecessary suffering of millions of people, Mitch?"

    You need two-thirds of both chambers. They don't have the votes to override a veto in the House

    Yet. There are already 10 public defections.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think now might be the time for Pelosi and Schumer to bring up the fact that they have the votes to override a veto. McConnell is hiding behind a veto so he doesn't have to acknowledge responsibility for this mess, and I think it's time to shine some light on him.

    "You have 100 votes for this bill, Mitch. It only takes 67 to kill a veto. Why don't you want to end this shutdown and stop the unnecessary suffering of millions of people, Mitch?"

    You need two-thirds of both chambers. They don't have the votes to override a veto in the House

    Yet. There are already 10 public defections.

    More to the point, it's easy for the GOP to "stand in solidarity" when there's nothing at stake. Put up an actual vote to reopen the government, where voting no could very well make you a walking political corpse come 2020, and...well, there's a reason Paul Ryan caved so hard in December.

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Yeah, I could definitely see Trump finding some quasi-legal way to get wall money and then keeping the government closed until he actually gets the money.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Yeah, I could definitely see Trump finding some quasi-legal way to get wall money and then keeping the government closed until he actually gets the money.

    Well the thing is that worries me about these wall headlines is this is something he's doing to get the wall, it mentions not at all reopening government. So he's looking for a way to push his racist monument, and yet still not fund the government.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I'm think Trump might declare an emergency, then keep the government closed until ground breaks on his wall. Tell Congress that they can either pass funding for his wall and reopen the government immediately, or wait until it works its way through the courts. But either way he's getting his wall, so they may as well avert needless suffering.

    I'm thinking he will probably try to make it sound less like "I'm going to keep inflicting pain on people until I get my way." I'm also thinking he'll probably fail at making it sound better.

    Jesus, this guy is a fucking monster.

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yeah, I could definitely see Trump finding some quasi-legal way to get wall money and then keeping the government closed until he actually gets the money.

    Well the thing is that worries me about these wall headlines is this is something he's doing to get the wall, it mentions not at all reopening government. So he's looking for a way to push his racist monument, and yet still not fund the government.

    Well, sure. If the government won’t fund his wall, he won’t fund the government.

    I doubt it’s any more complex than that.

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    $13 billion for 300 miles of wall means the full wall would be about $100 billion

    Also if you put together his rhetoric on this, it appears to be that the emergency is that brown people are coming across the border and raping women, which, like

    Good luck in court with that shit

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm think Trump might declare an emergency, then keep the government closed until ground breaks on his wall. Tell Congress that they can either pass funding for his wall and reopen the government immediately, or wait until it works its way through the courts. But either way he's getting his wall, so they may as well avert needless suffering.

    I'm thinking he will probably try to make it sound less like "I'm going to keep inflicting pain on people until I get my way." I'm also thinking he'll probably fail at making it sound better.

    Jesus, this guy is a fucking monster.

    Except if it takes too long, doesn't the country just sort of... crack in half?

    Like, if critical services aren't happening, things are gonna eventually get nasty.

    MuddBudd on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Speaking of fucking monsters, any reopening of the government has to run through McConnell, right? Like, to the extent there is a single individual most responsible for the government closure, it's McConnell, right?

    Hypothetically, if Trump just flat out said "I got my wall, but I'm never reopening government, I'll veto any spending bill, lolz," it would still fall on McConnell to bring a spending bill up for vote, correct?

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  • TaximesTaximes Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    The Senate passed a bill today for backpay to supposedly ease federal worker anxiety. Not that it helps anyone who is suffering right now due to missed paychecks.
    Politico wrote:
    Later Thursday, the Senate passed a bill to provide backpay to federal workers impacted by the shutdown. McConnell said the president told him he would sign the bill.

    IMO that doesn't bode well for reopening the government anytime soon. Seems more like an attempt at signalling federal workers to tough it out. If they were going to cut a deal and/or declare a national emergency to open the government tomorrow, they could ease anxiety much better by just doing that.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Okay, I've got to ask... is the ANY evidence that Trump or his admin even considering using emergency powers for the borderwall prior to that one reporter asking about it?

    One of the big give aways, is that everyone in the admin and the repubs in congress have started uses the word "crisis" every other sentence. They are trying to lay the rhetorical ground work to argue this is an emergency.

    The administration mouthpiece on NPR this morning tried to get the interviewer to say it. I was briefly concerned, but then she wadded it up and shoved it down their throat.

    "Will you at least admit there is a crisis on our southern border?"

    "It's not my job to decide that; [and now I'm done being nice to you, you conniving, disingenuous dirtbag]"

  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular


    MuddBudd wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I'm think Trump might declare an emergency, then keep the government closed until ground breaks on his wall. Tell Congress that they can either pass funding for his wall and reopen the government immediately, or wait until it works its way through the courts. But either way he's getting his wall, so they may as well avert needless suffering.

    I'm thinking he will probably try to make it sound less like "I'm going to keep inflicting pain on people until I get my way." I'm also thinking he'll probably fail at making it sound better.

    Jesus, this guy is a fucking monster.

    Except if it takes too long, doesn't the country just sort of... crack in half?

    Like, if critical services aren't happening, things are gonna eventually get nasty.

    This shutdown doesn’t survive something like the ATC walking off the job, or a major airport closing indefinitely due to lack of TSA agents.

    Basically something that cripples airtravel hard is my guess at the ultimate breaking point for most of the country. Affects nearly everyone, everywhere, even most of the rich (have fun flying in your private jet when there is no coordination for takeoffs/landings).

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Trump may have come up with a new plan to fund his wall: Steal the money from funds usually sent to help victims of natural disasters in the United States.


    Fox confirms WH directs Army Corps of Engineers to see if it can divert money to border wall from disaster funding bill to cover wildfires in California, hurricanes in Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico

    Chad Pergram covers Congress for FOX News.

    This is the national emergency plan. They’d only be able to build on the DoD land.

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This discussion has been closed.