Really the only reason to have a timer is to discourage players from using strategies that are overly slow and safe, and to enforce gear progression. For instance D3's Greater Rifts use the timer as essentially a DPS check, it's impossible to progress further if your damage is inadequate. That's probably where the WoW team got the idea, however I'm not sure this game really has the same issues.
Welcome to World of Warcraft! We hope you enjoy the Diablo 3 mechanics we've inappropriately and less effectively tried to cut and paste here.
Honestly, I might be into mythic if it was a straight-up dps race, not tricks to skip pulls. Who am I kidding, I probably wouldn't. But still, the metric should be speed of pack/boss killing which is straight up a gear and "do you know how to maximize your class's dps" check. Skipping pulls involves neither a gear or dps check.
BUT, I do feel like I could have applied D3's loot tricks to WoW in a much smoother way. But I know a lot of people say that. I see a lot of implementation that just makes me shake my head though.
+1
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The timer is a necessity to avoid degenerate gameplay. And it's also more than generous enough to not need to rush.
Acting like it forces you into "gotta go fast" gameplay is disingenuous and false.
You could call skipping pulls "emergent gameplay" and that's probably true. I would say it probably makes sense given the design of both the dungeons and the mythic system, which is where I would really point the finger. But that's half the reason I avoid it. It's designed, consciously or not, to encourage behavior I find personally annoying.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
You could call skipping pulls "emergent gameplay" and that's probably true. I would say it probably makes sense given the design of both the dungeons and the mythic system, which is where I would really point the finger. But that's half the reason I avoid it. It's designed, consciously or not, to encourage behavior I find personally annoying.
The behaviour encouraged by the lack of a timer would be far worse.
I don't disagree on the timer. Personally I would structure it so there are no superfluous packs and they must all be killed on the way to the bosses, making it a straight up gear check/dps race. People might complain it's too linear, but they're already linear if there's exactly one way to do the pulls from here to there. I'm basically all for anything that gives people fewer ways to argue about "the right way to do it." Which is largely a design issue.
I do agree that the timer is a necessity, given that the difficulty of M+ isn't static, you have to be able to measure progress somehow.
(And you shouldn't be able to get better gear by just using all CDs on every pack)
About skips, being able to do skips reliably and finding the most efficient way to deal with the dungeon is skill at the game. That said, in the overwhelming majority of M+ runs, just keeping a steady pace and avoiding wipes will easily let you meet it, skips or not. Hell, for most groups, is probably safer to pull most packs instead of trying and failing to do a skip.
Well, I don't even really mean to argue about it. I've very slowly over time learned to pay attention to which game systems I actually find fun, and which feel like an unfun chore to do, and just stick to the former. It took me a while because I'm kind of OCD with games and will try to do all the things if I don't take a moment and assess what actually feels fun to me.
I cant even explain how insane the warmode exp buff is for ally. I full completed everything in stormsong and an 117. I did a couple island expeditions and 1 dungeon. I havent done any of the war campaign unlock things yet. That exp REALLY adds up. Probably helps that prot pally can pull a ton of stuff and aoe it down.
In other news it looks like theyre making some changes to the way the conquest cap works for some of the weeks and there will be options for different slots. Also the best change is after you get the pvp mount you can fill the bar up again for a saddle, which lets you get other pvp mounts. The only way to get them previously was the win 100 rated BGs in a season, which would cause me to unsub before that happens.
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Got into a random Bloodmaul Slag Mines and our tank immediately left so a 2 Shamans, a Monk, and myself on my Mage ran the entire dungeon except for the last 4 ogres before the final boss and the final boss. A tank finally came in.
Was a really smooth run, no slower than any other run I've done and we had enough CC to take each mob 1 at a time with no issue.
It was pretty great.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
You know, I wouldn’t mind it if there was some difficulty knobs you could twist on M+ for personal play styles.
Like, say, no timers but everything is like +3 or +4 difficulty levels higher. Or you had to do it with no deaths total. So if you want to do it more methodical (maybe even with using that mythical thing called “CC”), you can without being punished.
Or just crank the difficulty up to stupid levels (insert the face of Kirby on Soul Melter EX here).
Isn't the + number the difficulty slider in that a +5 is harder than a +4 but easier than a +6?
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Got my Priest to 110 and my Mage to 100. Hit 100 just in time to do the invasion with 30 minutes left. I almost did not finish though because something weird happened with the last one I was doing. A bunch of the mobs in the cave were 110 or ?? to me while I was 101 and then some were 101. I had a lot of trouble doing it and almost ran out of time but a group came in that I could tag mobs with so I ended up finishing just in time.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Mythic plus should have the timer but I’m definitely sympathetic to people who wanted a “dungeons but EVEN HARDER” mode but found the version they went with to not quite be the style that scratched their itch
+1
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Mythic plus should have the timer but I’m definitely sympathetic to people who wanted a “dungeons but EVEN HARDER” mode but found the version they went with to not quite be the style that scratched their itch
My opinion is that the timer functionally does not exist until you get to higher levels. If you play the dungeon in a safe way that focuses on avoiding risky skips and excessively large pulls, but still maintains a steady pace and avoids unnecessary CC for the sake of CC, you can time any key comfortably up to and substantially beyond +10.
Welcome to World of Warcraft! We hope you enjoy the Diablo 3 mechanics we've inappropriately and less effectively tried to cut and paste here.
Honestly, I might be into mythic if it was a straight-up dps race, not tricks to skip pulls. Who am I kidding, I probably wouldn't. But still, the metric should be speed of pack/boss killing which is straight up a gear and "do you know how to maximize your class's dps" check. Skipping pulls involves neither a gear or dps check.
BUT, I do feel like I could have applied D3's loot tricks to WoW in a much smoother way. But I know a lot of people say that. I see a lot of implementation that just makes me shake my head though.
The difference with D3's gameplay is it actually feels kind of fun because you can smash the shit out of trash by yourself no problems. Dungeons and game decisions in wow have deemed that not a thing. We can't pull hundreds of enemies and not really feel like we're getting shit on. And if we are it's fairly easy to disengage if we overextended in D3. For some reason "feeling like a badass" was removed in lich king.
The few attempts at Mythic+ for me in legion were "holy shit we only have 17 minutes to get through this fucking dungeon? It takes 34 minutes on heroic what the fuck?" and it completely turned me off to the entire fucking idea because I absolutely hate that go-go-go-go skip-the-trash-but-whoops-hunter-pulled-everything mindset.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'd rather them redesign Mythic+ to have like, normal non-elite trash (but a lot of them) scattered into slightly fewer elites that are slightly stronger than how they are in the dungeon outside of M+. Then give the boss those extra abilities and pull from diablo instead and maybe some of them require a change to tactic to fight.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+2
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
I enjoy m+ as it's currently implemented. I agree with Dhalphir that everything up through +10 need not have the gotta-go-fast mentality, rather that it's more about simply not wasting time and executing well. There are lots of ways to gain time on a trash clear that don't require rigorous memorization of routes - interrupting mobs' pro-survival casts and managing spawns of ghuun properly just require basic game sense.
If routing is proving to be annoying, try downloading Method Dungeon Tools. It's a lightweight add-on that lets you preview the path you might take through any particular dungeon and affix combination, and it goes a long way to cut down on the route anxiety that the timer can impose.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I figure I could try one more time. Is there anyone here alliance side who would like to do some arenas tonight? I figure I will throw myself at them one more time. If not just to get some CP for the 370 weapon.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I figure I could try one more time. Is there anyone here alliance side who would like to do some arenas tonight? I figure I will throw myself at them one more time. If not just to get some CP for the 370 weapon.
I might be on tonight. Depends if my wife wants to go out or something. Should be on at various points during the weekend as well.
I enjoy m+ as it's currently implemented. I agree with Dhalphir that everything up through +10 need not have the gotta-go-fast mentality, rather that it's more about simply not wasting time and executing well. There are lots of ways to gain time on a trash clear that don't require rigorous memorization of routes - interrupting mobs' pro-survival casts and managing spawns of ghuun properly just require basic game sense.
If routing is proving to be annoying, try downloading Method Dungeon Tools. It's a lightweight add-on that lets you preview the path you might take through any particular dungeon and affix combination, and it goes a long way to cut down on the route anxiety that the timer can impose.
Why the shit do you need a mod to "plot a course" ??
That whole idea is frustrating to me.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+1
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
I enjoy m+ as it's currently implemented. I agree with Dhalphir that everything up through +10 need not have the gotta-go-fast mentality, rather that it's more about simply not wasting time and executing well. There are lots of ways to gain time on a trash clear that don't require rigorous memorization of routes - interrupting mobs' pro-survival casts and managing spawns of ghuun properly just require basic game sense.
If routing is proving to be annoying, try downloading Method Dungeon Tools. It's a lightweight add-on that lets you preview the path you might take through any particular dungeon and affix combination, and it goes a long way to cut down on the route anxiety that the timer can impose.
Why the shit do you need a mod to "plot a course" ??
That whole idea is frustrating to me.
You don't need it. It just saves you time in routing - you can either spend time running dungeons and paying attention to what works and what doesn't work and so forth, or you can download a map that lets you figure that out before you start the timer.
I figure I could try one more time. Is there anyone here alliance side who would like to do some arenas tonight? I figure I will throw myself at them one more time. If not just to get some CP for the 370 weapon.
If you were Horde I'd totally take you up on this. I have an Arena quest to do and I'm intimidated to try pubbing it.
Also while I enjoy warfronts, I do wish they were a bit harder. In one game we didn't even have catapults yet and the rest of the team had gotten through the treants.
Also while I enjoy warfronts, I do wish they were a bit harder. In one game we didn't even have catapults yet and the rest of the team had gotten through the treants.
They claim to be working on Heroic versions of the Warfronts that will require a bit more coordination and effort to win. I believe the current planned implementation is that you can queue with up to 10 into the new difficulty.
I do not, however, recall when the higher difficulty is due out or what the recommended item level will be for it.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
As someone with very limited time, it hits all the things I loved about Alterac Valley way back when but allows it to be something I can do in a half hour and be on my way for work/kids/etc.
I kind of think the m+ timers ought to be a little longer and the dungeons a little harder, but that might just make people even more likely to try strange tactics to get through them or skip specific things (and would also make the upper + limit lower)
like most things in this game, m+ has the broad problem of high-end tactics being adopted from streams/guides/etc and applied to lower levels of content where they really aren't necessary, but hey that's the game for you
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
For the Frost Mage hidden artifact skin, do I need to be in Frost spec to have a chance for the portal to take me to the place for it? Can it only happen once a day or can I just sit there and keep using the portals over and over?
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
you don't need to be in the appropriate spec for the hidden appearances; it looks like for that one it's just a low random daily chance to get the right portal
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
+3
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Grab a team of five players and prove it! All you and your team need to do is complete five level 14 Mythic Keystone Dungeons in time between February 26 and March 12. (Note: Keystone level is subject to change, and will be determined sometime after the start of Season 2, on Jan. 22.) If successful, you and your team will be granted access to the Tournament Realm, where you will be able to create max-level characters, equip them with the items you feel are most optimal, and build out talents as you please. You and your team will have access to the Tournament Realm for the duration of the season.
Each week will alternate between East and West, beginning with the Time Trial in ending in the week’s Cup, a double-elimination bracket featuring the top eight teams for that week’s region. All teams on the Tournament Realm will be able to run in their region’s Time Trials every alternating week, which means more opportunities to participate in Cups.
Each Cup for MDI East and MDI West will be broadcast live on Twitch each weekend across six weeks. There is a USD $12,000 prize pool per Cup, as well as MDI points.
For the Frost Mage hidden artifact skin, do I need to be in Frost spec to have a chance for the portal to take me to the place for it? Can it only happen once a day or can I just sit there and keep using the portals over and over?
As long as you have unlocked your frost spec legendary it can occur for you. Basically just portal to the mage order hall once per day and check if the frost portal is up there is an announce when you zone in letting you it happened. Its random but reasonably common so just keep checking every day and you will get it before long.
It's a message like "crackling comes from the portals below" and IIRC it can randomly trigger from walking up the stairs from the mission table to the main landing.
It is a once per day chance and will not always trigger. Basically just head the the class hall, walk up and down the stairs, if it crackles go down and hit the portal, if not, try again tomorrow.
Anyone have a clear idea on how cross-faction achievement unlocks work? If I do Legion pathfinder on Horde, does that work for my Alliance characters? If I do exalted Pandaria reps on Horde to get the kite, do my Alliance characters get the corresponding kite?
Thanks for your knowledge
Newman: So if players are by nature going to want to do one dungeon over another given the affixes, which is part of the fun as you said earlier, then what keeps it from being a punishing mechanic? Let's say you have a regular group, you've run all of the keys through, and now you have four Shrines and a Waycrest and it's a Fortified, Teeming, fill in some horrible affix, week. You may feel like you're now being required to run a couple hours' worth of content that nobody in the group wants to do, on a week when even you as a designer might feel like, "Yeah, okay. These dungeons are going to be less attractive this week because of the affixes."
Day: That's a great question. So one of the things that you mentioned there was your group was running them together, right? And that's one of the fun parts of Mythic Plus is you all have a new weekly keystone and you're communicating together, "Which dungeon do we want to run? Which ones do we have?" Part of the interest there is working together and coming up with which dungeons to run.
Maybe you all get stuck with the same keystones, there's the option to look outside your group. If they're judging it so far out of band that it feels unfair, then yeah, that's something that I would want to look at on the dungeon level, not necessarily on the keystone itself. That might affect other people as well. If the dungeon feels just overly difficult then it's likely overly difficult on not-Mystic Plus difficulties as well. I think there was a hotfix maybe a month ago or so now that looked to retuning a lot of abilities in King's Rest in particular, and some other dungeons as well.
You can say "there shouldn't be bad dungeons and we are working on it" and "you should have to run all dungeons", but saying "yeah fuck you" is completely out of touch.
Like does he not understand how shit of an idea that is? I don't run M+ and even I know that's not going to work. I don't even like to pug normal dungeons while I'm fucking leveling and they're not even remotely challenging because most people can solo the content.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
Honestly, I might be into mythic if it was a straight-up dps race, not tricks to skip pulls. Who am I kidding, I probably wouldn't. But still, the metric should be speed of pack/boss killing which is straight up a gear and "do you know how to maximize your class's dps" check. Skipping pulls involves neither a gear or dps check.
BUT, I do feel like I could have applied D3's loot tricks to WoW in a much smoother way. But I know a lot of people say that. I see a lot of implementation that just makes me shake my head though.
Acting like it forces you into "gotta go fast" gameplay is disingenuous and false.
The behaviour encouraged by the lack of a timer would be far worse.
(And you shouldn't be able to get better gear by just using all CDs on every pack)
About skips, being able to do skips reliably and finding the most efficient way to deal with the dungeon is skill at the game. That said, in the overwhelming majority of M+ runs, just keeping a steady pace and avoiding wipes will easily let you meet it, skips or not. Hell, for most groups, is probably safer to pull most packs instead of trying and failing to do a skip.
In other news it looks like theyre making some changes to the way the conquest cap works for some of the weeks and there will be options for different slots. Also the best change is after you get the pvp mount you can fill the bar up again for a saddle, which lets you get other pvp mounts. The only way to get them previously was the win 100 rated BGs in a season, which would cause me to unsub before that happens.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Was a really smooth run, no slower than any other run I've done and we had enough CC to take each mob 1 at a time with no issue.
It was pretty great.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Isn't the + number the difficulty slider in that a +5 is harder than a +4 but easier than a +6?
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My opinion is that the timer functionally does not exist until you get to higher levels. If you play the dungeon in a safe way that focuses on avoiding risky skips and excessively large pulls, but still maintains a steady pace and avoids unnecessary CC for the sake of CC, you can time any key comfortably up to and substantially beyond +10.
The difference with D3's gameplay is it actually feels kind of fun because you can smash the shit out of trash by yourself no problems. Dungeons and game decisions in wow have deemed that not a thing. We can't pull hundreds of enemies and not really feel like we're getting shit on. And if we are it's fairly easy to disengage if we overextended in D3. For some reason "feeling like a badass" was removed in lich king.
The few attempts at Mythic+ for me in legion were "holy shit we only have 17 minutes to get through this fucking dungeon? It takes 34 minutes on heroic what the fuck?" and it completely turned me off to the entire fucking idea because I absolutely hate that go-go-go-go skip-the-trash-but-whoops-hunter-pulled-everything mindset.
If routing is proving to be annoying, try downloading Method Dungeon Tools. It's a lightweight add-on that lets you preview the path you might take through any particular dungeon and affix combination, and it goes a long way to cut down on the route anxiety that the timer can impose.
I might be on tonight. Depends if my wife wants to go out or something. Should be on at various points during the weekend as well.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
I will supply my bnet tag when I get home. At work right now.
Why the shit do you need a mod to "plot a course" ??
That whole idea is frustrating to me.
You don't need it. It just saves you time in routing - you can either spend time running dungeons and paying attention to what works and what doesn't work and so forth, or you can download a map that lets you figure that out before you start the timer.
If you were Horde I'd totally take you up on this. I have an Arena quest to do and I'm intimidated to try pubbing it.
They claim to be working on Heroic versions of the Warfronts that will require a bit more coordination and effort to win. I believe the current planned implementation is that you can queue with up to 10 into the new difficulty.
I do not, however, recall when the higher difficulty is due out or what the recommended item level will be for it.
like most things in this game, m+ has the broad problem of high-end tactics being adopted from streams/guides/etc and applied to lower levels of content where they really aren't necessary, but hey that's the game for you
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
https://www.wowhead.com/news=289786/wow-esports-in-2019-arena-world-championship-and-mythic-dungeon-international
relevant sections
As long as you have unlocked your frost spec legendary it can occur for you. Basically just portal to the mage order hall once per day and check if the frost portal is up there is an announce when you zone in letting you it happened. Its random but reasonably common so just keep checking every day and you will get it before long.
It is a once per day chance and will not always trigger. Basically just head the the class hall, walk up and down the stairs, if it crackles go down and hit the portal, if not, try again tomorrow.
Thanks for your knowledge
You can say "there shouldn't be bad dungeons and we are working on it" and "you should have to run all dungeons", but saying "yeah fuck you" is completely out of touch.
Like does he not understand how shit of an idea that is? I don't run M+ and even I know that's not going to work. I don't even like to pug normal dungeons while I'm fucking leveling and they're not even remotely challenging because most people can solo the content.
Sorry Bob, you gotta sit this one out because your key sucks and we need Randy Rando's key.
Oh they already know that, they are told almost daily. That would just be confirming it.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595