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はじめまして!Let’s learn a new language!

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    TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    sarukun wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    as I said in the holiday forum, I sense a distinction between guides that are designed to teach the student how to speak or write in a language and one that teaches the student how to read.

    Tae Kim's work is better than most - stuff like 'attaching' particles helps a whole bunch - but, "Hopefully, you’ve managed to get a good grasp of how grammar works in Japanese and how to use [it] to communicate your thoughts in the Japanese way." (from the section Other Grammar) This kind of encapsulates my feelings: I'm not communicating. I'm in the audience.

    For writers, it's really important to use the right verb forms, to have the correct particles, to build the sentence in a particular way.

    For the reader, I'm looking at already-constructed sentences and have to apply those rules in reverse.

    so, yeah. Assuming that makes sense: if anyone's run across a grammar guide for the reader, something that might help with working backwards, I'd really appreciate it.

    I did want to ask a quick question while I was here:
    In this book, また is used to start two successive sentences. Should I treat that as "and again" each time? Or would some variation on "first ... second..." be more accurate?
    That is hard to answer out of context, can you include the sentences?

    sure!

    「アルミニウム」「カルシウム」などは見出し語としてのロマ字続りをそれぞれ aruminyūmu, karushūmu などとした。
    また「ギリシア」は Girisha とした。
    また waitress、vodka などは見出し語としてのロマ字続りをそれぞれ uētoresu, uokka などとし、 w音は用いなかった

    Tamin on
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    I would probably think if it as “next” or “in addition”, based on that context. They’re subsequent but unrelated additions in a list about different romaji transliterations.

    Edit: after looking at it again, I feel like “similarly” is a good translation, even though it’s kind of stretch.

    sarukun on
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    I gave Duolingo Chinese a go but since PUBG implemented ping based servers I don't meet as many Chinese players and so I stopped. But my brother has a Chinese girlfriend so maybe I oughta get back to it.

    Gvzbgul on
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Also, what is even the Duolingo "Chinese"? Mandarin?

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    Chinese from China. That is to say, simplified Mandarin Chinese.

    As opposed, largely to “Taiwanese” Mandarin, which uses traditional characters, although a few other places use them, I hear tell.

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    TaminTamin Registered User regular
    sarukun wrote: »
    I would probably think if it as “next” or “in addition”, based on that context. They’re subsequent but unrelated additions in a list about different romaji transliterations.

    Edit: after looking at it again, I feel like “similarly” is a good translation, even though it’s kind of stretch.

    Neat! Thank you.

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    ThisThis Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Okay, some app suggestions for Chinese:

    Character writing: Skritter (also exists for Japanese) - teaches you to write Chinese character stroke by stroke, and uses a spaced-repetition algorithm for reviews. You can study from pre-made vocabulary lists (I recommend starting with basic radicals/components) and you can also make and submit your own. It's not going to help you in terms of putting a sentence together, but it will help drill the strokes into your very bones so you can actually write things on your own. Because of its popularity, you can find vocab lists for just about any textbook out there. Particularly nice to use if you have a stylus-enabled device like a Surface or a Note. It's subscription-based, and it's not cheap, but you only need an active subscription to add new words to your pool. You can keep practicing the words you've already added as much as you want if you pause or cancel. Here is a referral link which I think extends the free trial by a week, and also gives you (and me) a bonus free week if you subscribe. Simplified and Traditional both supported.

    Reading & vocabulary: Du Chinese - this is the one I like best for short articles/dialogues. Has stuff for all levels, you can listen to native speakers reading the text, either from start to finish or selected sections. Words are highlighted in sync with the speech. Great built in dictionary so you can touch a word to see what it means. You can also add words to a personal dictionary with flash cards. This is subscription based, but they have a rotating selection of free lessons with new ones coming out frequently at different levels. So far this has been enough for me. Simplified and Traditional.

    Dictionary: Pleco - this thing is ridiculously good. It's almost never let me down. Supports both Chinese->English and English->Chinese. Includes multiple definitions, including slang and idioms. Free, with a lot of great built-in functions. Optional paid add-ons. I've paid for an etymology add-on that shows you ancient versions of some characters and explains how some have changed or become corrupted over time. This is THE must-have app for Chinese I think. Simplified and Traditional.

    Flash Cards: Anki - this is an extremely robust piece of software that can be customized in a million ways and used for a million things, not just language. Based on spaced repetition. To get the most out of it requires a fair amount of work and looking up how to do things, but there's nothing else like it in terms of power.

    This on
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    #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Peas wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    I was gonna learn a new language, but then I remembered I don't really even like conversing with people in English.

    I am not going to talk to someone i think, i just want to use it to read stuff and understand song lyrics

    Well my wife is basically fluent in Japanese and cannot understand song lyrics at all unless they're written down so

    #pipe on
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    PeasPeas Registered User regular
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    Lost SalientLost Salient blink twice if you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered User regular
    My Korean is still okay but suffers from lack of ability to practice.

    I popped into the Duolingo app for it a while ago and it turns out my Korean is... apparently at least more 'normal' than the app, because some of the sentence and word choices are bizarre. Like what? No one says that.

    Also, I'm going to Spain this year, so instead of practicing Spanish I'm doing French in my nonexistent free time.

    RUVCwyu.jpg
    "Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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    #pipe#pipe Cocky Stride, Musky odours Pope of Chili TownRegistered User regular
    She says Japanese is not a very intuitive language to write lyrics in, that a lot of lyrics have stylized pronunciation or are weird made up nonsense words or portmanteaus and you have to really really work hard to pick up even a little of what they're saying.

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    FlarneFlarne Registered User regular
    Bizarre phrases on Duolingo seems pretty common, at least in the beginning of most languages. Both Swedish and Portuguese focus a lot on how much people and animals like drinking oil.

    It also taught me incredibly valuable phrases like "Eu bebo quando eu quero" (I drink when I want) and "Eu te amo, mas nao muito" (I love you, but not a lot).

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    Lost SalientLost Salient blink twice if you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered User regular
    I guess that's part of it, but it's more like 'awkward' but technically correct word choices? At least for Korean? It's very confusing when you're good enough at a language to be like "but no one would SAY it that way."

    Like if you were studying English and it asked you to select "On each weekend day, I wake up tired," instead of "I wake up tired every weekend." It doesn't give you the option for the natural sentence in Duolingo but it's HARD to choose the first sentence when it sounds so objectively dumb and weird.

    RUVCwyu.jpg
    "Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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    FlarneFlarne Registered User regular
    Ah alright, yeah that's a different issue. I don't think it does that in Swedish, at least not very much from the parts I've heard.

    I gotta figure out a good way to continue my Portuguese. I finished the Duolingo course almost a year ago and haven't really kept it up outside of Brazil trips. I wanted to find some simple books for Kindle since just pushing to look up unknown words is real convenient, but Amazon doesn't differentiate between Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese Portuguese in the store so it's hard to find the right books.

    The obvious option is to start having Portuguese nights at home of course, but we've been talking about doing that for Swedish as well for years and never seem to get around to it.

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    Lost SalientLost Salient blink twice if you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Related: just did some French while I was waiting for a timed thing to finish in the office and it dings you for translating "Bonjour" as "Hello" which is horseshit

    E: I realize you can also say 'salut' but come on now

    Lost Salient on
    RUVCwyu.jpg
    "Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    #pipe wrote: »
    Peas wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    I was gonna learn a new language, but then I remembered I don't really even like conversing with people in English.

    I am not going to talk to someone i think, i just want to use it to read stuff and understand song lyrics

    Well my wife is basically fluent in Japanese and cannot understand song lyrics at all unless they're written down so

    I remember listening to Japanese music with a coworker in the car, and he was like "So you can understand everything they're saying?"

    And I was like "Weeeelllllll, I mean, the way they say things in music is like, suuuuper weird and hard to parse because the syllables fit the music, and it's just way harder than regular talking"

    And he was like "Bullshit, you just don't know"

    and I was just like, "'Scuse me while I kiss this guy".

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    ThisThis Registered User regular
    Related: just did some French while I was waiting for a timed thing to finish in the office and it dings you for translating "Bonjour" as "Hello" which is horseshit

    E: I realize you can also say 'salut' but come on now

    What the hello? What does it want, "good day"?

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    tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Fuck new languages, I'm learning Sumerian

    Real talk though, I can feel my German slipping away the farther I get from living there. I should probably find someone local to tandem with, but it's not really a language I enjoy speaking?

    I should have moved to France instead.

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    Lost SalientLost Salient blink twice if you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered User regular
    It wanted "good morning."

    Then two questions later it has you translate it as "hello."

    RUVCwyu.jpg
    "Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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    ThisThis Registered User regular
    That's absolutely brutal. How do you fuck up "Hello"...

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    LoisLaneLoisLane Registered User regular
    Does anyone use HelloTalk?

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    I have started to supplement my Duolingo lessons with writing the shit down

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Also, what is even the Duolingo "Chinese"? Mandarin?
    sarukun wrote: »
    Chinese from China. That is to say, simplified Mandarin Chinese.

    As opposed, largely to “Taiwanese” Mandarin, which uses traditional characters, although a few other places use them, I hear tell.

    There's more than one "Chinese from China," FYI, the other biggest being Cantonese. Nearly every app/website will mean very standardized Mandarin with simplified characters though, you're right. Just didn't want people to think "Chinese = Mandarin" always :) .

    kime on
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    kime wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Also, what is even the Duolingo "Chinese"? Mandarin?
    sarukun wrote: »
    Chinese from China. That is to say, simplified Mandarin Chinese.

    As opposed, largely to “Taiwanese” Mandarin, which uses traditional characters, although a few other places use them, I hear tell.

    There's more than one "Chinese from China," FYI, the other biggest being Cantonese. Nearly every app/website will mean very standardized Mandarin with simplified characters though, you're right. Just didn't want people to think "Chinese = Mandarin" always :) .

    Cantonese is not Chinese in my estimation. Similar writing systems, but unintelligible between most native speakers, I don’t like thinking of it as “more different Chinese”.

    There are enough actual dialects of Mandarin without lumping other languages in there with it.

    sarukun on
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    OK. But "Cantonese is not Chinese" is definitely not a common opinion. As in, I don't think anyone else agrees :P

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    DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    Further evidence that I am broken

    I probably know more Drow than I do any real language.

    Though I could argue that Drow is distinct and complex enough to be considered A Language

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Oh hey.

    I can sometimes read こんにちわ now.

    Sometimes.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    OK. But "Cantonese is not Chinese" is definitely not a common opinion. As in, I don't think anyone else agrees :P

    I didn’t invent that opinion on my own.

    Most of the people that espouse it are from Hong Kong.

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    godmodegodmode Southeast JapanRegistered User regular
    Oh hey.

    I can sometimes read こんにちわ now.

    Sometimes.

    すごい!

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    Lost SalientLost Salient blink twice if you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered User regular
    I would actually rather learn Cantonese than Mandarin

    Which would continue my trend of studying languages that are of very limited utility

    RUVCwyu.jpg
    "Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    I knocked out all the most useful ones early, the list going forward:
    Taiwanese
    Italian
    Hawai’ian
    Korean

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    ThisThis Registered User regular
    sarukun wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Also, what is even the Duolingo "Chinese"? Mandarin?
    sarukun wrote: »
    Chinese from China. That is to say, simplified Mandarin Chinese.

    As opposed, largely to “Taiwanese” Mandarin, which uses traditional characters, although a few other places use them, I hear tell.

    There's more than one "Chinese from China," FYI, the other biggest being Cantonese. Nearly every app/website will mean very standardized Mandarin with simplified characters though, you're right. Just didn't want people to think "Chinese = Mandarin" always :) .

    Cantonese is not Chinese in my estimation. Similar writing systems, but unintelligible between most native speakers, I don’t like thinking of it as “more different Chinese”.

    There are enough actual dialects of Mandarin without lumping other languages in there with it.

    Whoa, what? There are loads of different Chinese languages. Chinese is not a synonym for Mandarin other than as a shorthand. Cantonese and Mandarin are different languages, but they are both Chinese languages. "Unintelligible between most native speakers" describes lots of if not most local languages in China - people from like two towns over often can't understand each other's local languages. The word "dialect" is often used to describe these rather than "language" but I think the choice is more political than linguistic. Spanish and French are more similar to each other than many of the "dialects" in China.

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    This wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Also, what is even the Duolingo "Chinese"? Mandarin?
    sarukun wrote: »
    Chinese from China. That is to say, simplified Mandarin Chinese.

    As opposed, largely to “Taiwanese” Mandarin, which uses traditional characters, although a few other places use them, I hear tell.

    There's more than one "Chinese from China," FYI, the other biggest being Cantonese. Nearly every app/website will mean very standardized Mandarin with simplified characters though, you're right. Just didn't want people to think "Chinese = Mandarin" always :) .

    Cantonese is not Chinese in my estimation. Similar writing systems, but unintelligible between most native speakers, I don’t like thinking of it as “more different Chinese”.

    There are enough actual dialects of Mandarin without lumping other languages in there with it.

    Whoa, what? There are loads of different Chinese languages. Chinese is not a synonym for Mandarin other than as a shorthand. Cantonese and Mandarin are different languages, but they are both Chinese languages. "Unintelligible between most native speakers" describes lots of if not most local languages in China - people from like two towns over often can't understand each other's local languages. The word "dialect" is often used to describe these rather than "language" but I think the choice is more political than linguistic. Spanish and French are more similar to each other than many of the "dialects" in China.

    That is precisely why some people are uncomfortable classifying them as “Chinese” languages. “Chinese” in common usage is thought of as a language rather than a language family, although it can reasonably be used as either. Being specific about which you’re using it as is important.

    In general when I say “Chinese”, I mean 國語,Mandarin, in part because in everyday conversation I don’t have cause to be describing a language family. As such, it is distinct from related languages in that family, such as Taiwanese or Cantonese. I prefer Sinitic as a descriptor if the language family, which is less recognizable but also less likely to overlap.

    The whole issue’s a little hot at the moment, China’s been flexing it’s muscles on the Taiwan question recently, so I’m a little sensitive to this type of “oh, it’s all Chinese” umbrella shit, it reads a little to close to the CPC’s playbook for my taste.

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I feel like when I was a child, Chinese meant Mandarin. But for the past 10+ years, people always specify what they mean. I'm not sure if that's people that changed, or just me not paying attention when I was littler.

    I get you may have some political reasons for wanting to say it the way you do, which, you know, fine. But when you try to say that "Chinese = Mandarin" to people here that honestly don't know and are asking, and you phrase that like it's just the way it is, that's pretty disingenuous.


    In other topics...
    Oh hey.

    I can sometimes read こんにちわ now.

    Sometimes.

    The first thing I forget when I slack off on keeping my hiragana memorized is ち vs さ :(. Like it's obvious in context there what you said, but if you picked me at a random time and asked which was which, not sure I'd know.... Any good mnemonic for that :P ?

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    I mean, I think i’ve gone ahead and articulated pretty clearly what I mean and why I say it that way, but if we want to have a standard for the thread whereby Mandarin is the term we use for the language and Chinese for the family, I don’t mind that, provided we’re all on the same page.

    I just want to be clear that your preferred distinction isn’t somehow “the default” and I’m throwing a wrench in things with my own invention. This is the mode of description I’ve developed through study and interaction with both language scholars and lay persons, and both means of expression are arbitrary, not the least reason being that describing these languages in an unrelated language has its own baggage associated with it.

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2019
    kime wrote: »
    I feel like when I was a child, Chinese meant Mandarin. But for the past 10+ years, people always specify what they mean. I'm not sure if that's people that changed, or just me not paying attention when I was littler.

    I get you may have some political reasons for wanting to say it the way you do, which, you know, fine. But when you try to say that "Chinese = Mandarin" to people here that honestly don't know and are asking, and you phrase that like it's just the way it is, that's pretty disingenuous.


    In other topics...
    Oh hey.

    I can sometimes read こんにちわ now.

    Sometimes.

    The first thing I forget when I slack off on keeping my hiragana memorized is ち vs さ :(. Like it's obvious in context there what you said, but if you picked me at a random time and asked which was which, not sure I'd know.... Any good mnemonic for that :P ?

    I remember chi because the c in the hiragana is backwards.

    EDIT: It also works for Sa since the bottom of さ is like the bottom of a backwards s

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    ThisThis Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    I think I get where you're coming from, but... yeah I think it's pretty fair to say the idea that Cantonese is a kind of Chinese is very much "the default".

    In a lot of places it's the dominant Chinese. It's what Chinese people I grew up with speak. I would be pretty curious to see their reaction if they were to be told they don't speak Chinese.

    It's true though that using English to talk about it adds confusion. I think a big part of the reason why the word "Chinese" is used to mean "Mandarin" in China and Taiwan is just that a lot of people haven't learned the word "Mandarin".

    This on
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    Vann DirasVann Diras Registered User regular
    My wife has pretty comfortably made learning Spanish via Duolingo a part of her daily routine now, while I’ve fallen sooooooo far behind

    So I guess thanks to this thread for giving me a kick in the butt, gotta play some catch up

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    I also just randomly found this:

    https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Memorizing_the_Hiragana

    so it might help me remember some things?

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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