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はじめまして!Let’s learn a new language!

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    SolventSolvent Econ-artist กรุงเทพมหานครRegistered User regular
    Related to the Maori thing above, I was stoked when I learnt that in Vietnamese there is a 'we' that includes the listener and a 'we' that excludes the listener. Makes a lot of sense, and it's not available in English.

    I think in spoken French there's sort of the same distinction, right? You'd use 'nous' where you mean 'we' including the listener but probably 'on' otherwise. I don't think this is a formal rule but I've picked it up through use.

    I don't know where he got the scorpions, or how he got them into my mattress.

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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    It's annoying trying to translate into English, because you end up either losing information or making the sentence seem mean.

    "We, not you, are going to the movies"

    It feels like you're implying an insult when it's translated so directly. But it's just the language being more specific than English usually is.

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Solvent wrote: »
    Related to the Maori thing above, I was stoked when I learnt that in Vietnamese there is a 'we' that includes the listener and a 'we' that excludes the listener. Makes a lot of sense, and it's not available in English.

    I think in spoken French there's sort of the same distinction, right? You'd use 'nous' where you mean 'we' including the listener but probably 'on' otherwise. I don't think this is a formal rule but I've picked it up through use.

    Chinese has something similar too, there's a "we" that is specifically yourself and the listener(s), and a "we" that is... more generic, I guess. One of those things that you don't really think about growing up learning English, but pretty useful!

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    JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Language

    Is hard

    I'm sort of getting better at parsing out words I hear in sentences and I got Le Monde on my phone what for the reading of French news in French but daggum if it isn't super in French.

    There was some kind of podcast or website or something that read out news blurbs in simple French with the intention of new learners listening. I need to see if I can find that.

    Edit: found it. It is not facile. It is not facile at all.

    Juggernut on
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    GeddoeGeddoe Registered User regular
    Missed a day of Wanikani and then logged in to 200 reviews. :?

    I really should use Hellotalk more, but I'm so shy(and also boring). I'll be be Ralph Wiggum. "そ、 あなた は ものがすきですか"

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    TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    I don't think I'm grokking ある and いる

    like, I get that the abstract concept that ある is for inanimate objects (a pen) and いる is for animate objects (a cat).

    Which raises my first silly question:
    1) given a sentence like, I dunno, "Alice sat in a chair surrounded by cats", would I see two いる and an ある? I plugged a few variations into google translate and it only returns one per sentence.

    2) which one is used, if there are both animate and inanimate objects in the sentence? I gave google

    are the chairs surrounded by cats?
    the cats are surrounded by chairs

    and it returns います for each.

    (variations adjust to いません and いませんでした as I'd expect)

    3) Is います google skewing more polite than is necessarily correct?

    Tamin on
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    GeddoeGeddoe Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Tamin wrote: »
    I don't think I'm grokking ある and いる

    like, I get that the abstract concept that ある is for inanimate objects (a pen) and いる is for animate objects (a cat).

    Which raises my first silly question:
    1) given a sentence like, I dunno, "Alice sat in a chair surrounded by cats", would I see two いる and an ある? I plugged a few variations into google translate and it only returns one per sentence.

    2) which one is used, if there are both animate and inanimate objects in the sentence? I gave google

    are the chairs surrounded by cats?
    the cats are surrounded by chairs

    and it returns います for each.

    (variations adjust to いません and いませんでした as I'd expect)

    3) Is います google skewing more polite than is necessarily correct?

    Why would there be いる or ある in "Alice sat in a chair surrounded by cats"? I wouldn't use either for that sentence. I'm not sure the verb for surrounded, but sat in a chair is like isunisuwatta.

    The sentence in Japanese would be Alice a surrounded by cats chair in sat. The chair is a surrounded by cats chair.

    Geddoe on
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    TaminTamin Registered User regular
    I mean, that's why I'm asking. I don't know. I noted it was a silly question for a reason.

    (and actually google didn't return either verb; I misread the result. When I adjust the sentence to "Alice is in a chair surrounded by cats" I end up with います.)

    I might be conflating concepts or just misunderstanding what these verbs do. Maybe it's just that Tae Kim's guide calls them 'existence verbs' and I'm having trouble with that phrasing?

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    I mean, that's why I'm asking. I don't know. I noted it was a silly question for a reason.

    (and actually google didn't return either verb; I misread the result. When I adjust the sentence to "Alice is in a chair surrounded by cats" I end up with います.)

    I might be conflating concepts or just misunderstanding what these verbs do. Maybe it's just that Tae Kim's guide calls them 'existence verbs' and I'm having trouble with that phrasing?

    I mean, what about just "there are cats and chairs." Which verb would that use?

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    I’m very tired, but generally my knee jerk is “what is the subject of the sentence”?

    If it’s animate, then it gets いる.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Geddoe wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    I don't think I'm grokking ある and いる

    like, I get that the abstract concept that ある is for inanimate objects (a pen) and いる is for animate objects (a cat).

    Which raises my first silly question:
    1) given a sentence like, I dunno, "Alice sat in a chair surrounded by cats", would I see two いる and an ある? I plugged a few variations into google translate and it only returns one per sentence.

    2) which one is used, if there are both animate and inanimate objects in the sentence? I gave google

    are the chairs surrounded by cats?
    the cats are surrounded by chairs

    and it returns います for each.

    (variations adjust to いません and いませんでした as I'd expect)

    3) Is います google skewing more polite than is necessarily correct?

    Why would there be いる or ある in "Alice sat in a chair surrounded by cats"? I wouldn't use either for that sentence. I'm not sure the verb for surrounded, but sat in a chair is like isunisuwatta.

    The sentence in Japanese would be Alice a surrounded by cats chair in sat. The chair is a surrounded by cats chair.

    This just makes me want to make up an English word that means “a surrounded by cats chair”.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    I'm wondering if the actual confusion here stems from distinguishing between いる and ある as solitary verbs versus the ている-conjugation, i.e. "present progressive".

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    halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    So once upon a time I used to translate Japanese concerts...

    vMDRZyC.png

    One of the things I kind of prided myself on was they way I translated songs. Many translations are accurate, but you could never get a good feel for the pacing of the lyrics. Also, many times, the Japanese lyrics were never on the screen, so you really coudn't really follow along. One of my goals was that I wanted to match the lyrics line-for-line directly from the lyric sheet. This way, each line was parsed in the same meter the original lyricist intended.

    This is tough, as Japanese can be a bit flowery with euphemisms. This meant you had to be a bit poetic in English to align the concepts together. One of the tools that made this more easy was the absolute cacophony of vocabulary words English has in it's inventory. This is thanks to it's roots as a Germanic language, and yet over half of the dictionary consists of Romantic and Italic words (Big "R" and big "I" respectively). Armed with a good thesaurus and a penchant for flowery English, I had one tool in my toolbox ready.

    The other issue is that it's a real beast to get around the parts of speech. Japanese put verbs at the end of sentences after the object. In English they go in the middle after the subject. At first this isn't a big deal, as you just need to rearrange the word order to create a grammar framework. But, in Japanese lyrics, they very often break a phrase up into two lines and place the verb in the second line to create tension. When you are translating lyrics line-by-line, this leaves many of your phrases "action-less" because the verb is somewhere else.

    Let's look at the lyric of the screenshot above. It's not the worst example, but helps illustrate the problem.

    始めて 会った 日 を
    Hajimete atta hi o
    first met day (o)
    The day we first met...

    This is what I have to work with. First thing is that the subject of the sentence is completely missing. Japanese, remember, loves to drop the subject if it's understood. The only thing I have is an adjectival noun phrase and an object marker(o). Even though it looks like a verb is in there, "First met" is an adjective describing the noun (day). This is why it's called an adjectival noun. The object marker (o)-「を」just says the part of speech before it is the object of the sentence.

    Notice how it's missing the verb too? There is no "action" for this phrase, it's just describing the day.

    The whole lyric is this:

    始めて 会った 日 を
    Hajimete atta hi o
    first met day (o)
    The day we first met...

    今 も 覚えて いる?
    ima mo oboeteiru?
    now also remember are?
    Do you still remember it?

    There's the verb! It was tacked on to an adverbial noun 「今」-(now)

    I may sound like I'm complaining, but this aspect of Japanese music is really pretty. The lyrics "unfold" by setting a scene, and then adding action after the picture has been set. Reading English lyrics almost "give away the plot" because the verb is in the middle, before the setting has been set.

    It's just a massive pain to translate.

    Also, Japanese songs have some pretty cool stories you don't hear in western music. One of my favorites is called "Earth - The Ark Above the Treetops" 「EARTH~木の上の方舟」(Earth - Ki no Ue no Hakobune). The song is about a huge white Ark starship floating silently above the trees, and the embarking population who are set to journey to another star system. (You can hear the song here)

    Anyways, I was feeling nostalgic about when I used to translate all of this stuff hardcore. Sadly what killed it was two reasons. First, no one really cared for the concerts outside of the ravenous, demanding fan base of the artist I was currently translating "More Ayu! Why are you subbing Kumi Kouda? She's such a whore!"

    Also I used to upload all of these to my YouTube channel, and then it was nuked by a Japanese record label. It took 5 years to get my channel back. (Everything was backed up and deleted of course)



    halkun on
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    GeddoeGeddoe Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    I mean, that's why I'm asking. I don't know. I noted it was a silly question for a reason.

    (and actually google didn't return either verb; I misread the result. When I adjust the sentence to "Alice is in a chair surrounded by cats" I end up with います.)

    I might be conflating concepts or just misunderstanding what these verbs do. Maybe it's just that Tae Kim's guide calls them 'existence verbs' and I'm having trouble with that phrasing?

    "Alice is in a chair surrounded by cats" might end up with imasu because Alice is existing in the chair. The cats are descriptors of the chair and the chair is just a place that Alice is.

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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    But what would "cats and chairs are here" be?

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    GeddoeGeddoe Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    ネコといすはここ(です)

    Geddoe on
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    halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    "Iru" and "aru" are supposed to agree with the subject of the sentence. You would choose one or the other depending on your context. Much like you would use wa/ga to define the sentence object (and then the subject is no longer explicitly mentioned), you would use iru or aru based upon the subject you are going to talk about. If you use "aru" then you have given context that you are talking about the chair in the next few sentences with out having to explicitly say "isu wa" in the next sentience. Constantly defining the subject in Japanese conversation sounds silly.

    Example:
    「ここは猫と椅子がいる。かわいいですね!」
    Koko wa neko to isu ga iru. Kawaii desu ne!
    Here is a cat and chair. Isn't it cute?

    If you used "iru" you are saying the cat is cute.
    If you used "aru" you are saying the chair is cute.

    Notice here that I sprinkled in some wa/ga magic, defining the topic (wa) as here(koko), and the overrriding subjects (ga) as the cat and chair (neko to isu).
    So what verb do you choose? Well, what subject are you going to continue talking about? The cat or the chair? Conversations do not happen in a vacuum.

    When they say that Japanese is contextual, they are not joking. Sometimes it's better to parse the situation, and then figure out what to say.

    Last note; If you are talking about the location, you would probably want to say something like "koko ga..." to define that as the subject. You are going to need to use a combo of wa/ga as you are handling multiple subjects, just remember that ga (subject) conquers wa (topic) when it comes to subject definition. Also if "Here" is the subject, then it's aru :)

    ==EDIT==
    @Geddoe went the route of defining the cat and char as the topic (wa) and koko implicitly as the subject using "desu". That works too.



    halkun on
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    That's pretty much what I figured, good to know it's not all gone.

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    JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    Ever since I've really started trying to learn French I keep spelling random words with an 'e' at the end.

    I had to go back and change "random" back from "randome" while typing this.

    Is this... learning?

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    JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    To be clear I still can't speak, write or understand anything in French I just spell words with an 'e' at the end now.

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    The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    I've spent about an hour learning the basic grammar of Swahili because I wanted to make make sure the two-word phrase I used for a throwaway side project wasn't an abomination.

    Swahili is a really cool language?

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
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    Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Duo is throwing katakana and kanji at me and I wanna go back to hiragana. D:

    Are all three of these syllabaries used interchangeably? What's the context for using katakana over hiragana, when they seem to be representative of all the same sounds. Also, kanji seems to be about shrinking down a bunch of consonants into a smaller symbol, but are there any tells to reading them or is it all memorisation? Like, should I be able to look at a kanji and know what katakana make it up?

    Oh brilliant
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    godmodegodmode Southeast JapanRegistered User regular
    Katakana is exclusively for non-Japanese words and names, Hiragana and Kanji are for Japanese words. You'll typically see a mix of all of them (maybe not Katakana), as demonstrated here, on this site where I had to purchase a train ticket package
    g09oo2qxu9o9.png

    Also Kanji have multiple meanings that vary with context, so it's a lot.

    As for a breakdown of individual kanji symbols, I haven't heard a single rule that applies to all of them. I think it comes down to memorization.

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Juggernut wrote: »
    To be clear I still can't speak, write or understand anything in French I just spell words with an 'e' at the end now.

    It is my understanding that all French words end in silent E, so I believe you're on the right track!
    I've spent about an hour learning the basic grammar of Swahili because I wanted to make make sure the two-word phrase I used for a throwaway side project wasn't an abomination.

    Swahili is a really cool language?

    They're all cool languages, Bront.

    sarukun on
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Duo is throwing katakana and kanji at me and I wanna go back to hiragana. D:

    Are all three of these syllabaries used interchangeably? What's the context for using katakana over hiragana, when they seem to be representative of all the same sounds. Also, kanji seems to be about shrinking down a bunch of consonants into a smaller symbol, but are there any tells to reading them or is it all memorisation? Like, should I be able to look at a kanji and know what katakana make it up?

    Kanji is not a syllabary, it's a set of ideograms, each of which is represented phonetically in spoken language by one, two, and sometimes three syllables in Japanese. As godmode indicated, katakana is primarily used for loan words, although there are rare/obscure instances where it is also used for native Japanese words, especially onomatopoeia.

    It is not a good idea to think of kanji as representing syllables, although you will spot things in them that look familiar, as katakana and hiragana are both based on the various shapes and symbols used to build the various characters. Kanji originated as images not unlike hieroglyphs, the so-called "oracle bone script" that shows up on ancient artifacts found in what is now China. The oldest and many of the most commonly used kanji are derived from these. They still retain a lot of this "thing/idea represented by a drawing" connotation, although there are many, many more modern complex kanji that were invented in a variety of ways, including some that provide pronunciation clues. The wikipedia article has a pretty good breakdown of the various types and how they came to be used in the modern Japanese language (and others).

    To start with, the only real way to go about learning is through memorization, which is usually tied to "stroke order". There is a recommended order of strokes for writing each kanji. But, as you may have noticed, many kanji are made of up several smaller kanji. These are called "radicals". Once you get past the simplest characters (typically nouns) you will start to see these radicals repeated in other, more complex characters. So memorizing is not as daunting as it may first appear, as what you are learning builds on itself: instead of memorizing 15 strokes, you memorize 2/3 radicals and then remember which radicals make up the character. It is highly recommended that you pay attention and follow the stroke orders for characters. This aids not only with memorization, but will reflect highly on your scholarship when writing in the presence of others who have a Japanese education. People will absolutely notice (and most likely compliment you!) on your writing if you do it "properly".

    As far as "interchangeability" goes, no. As you continue to learn, you will notice that kanji is used primarily for nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, hiragana is used to clarify pronunciations and indicate grammar through the use of "particles", which are conceptually kind of a mindfuck and not all that easy to learn. Katakana shows up disproportionately in advertising because it looks... cool... I guess...? But beyond that, it really isn't a huge part of daily life outside of loan words.

    sarukun on
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    GeddoeGeddoe Registered User regular
    One of my friends passed his JLPT N2 test in December. He feels the biggest contribution to passing JLPT's is knowing kanji.

    The best part about studying kanji for me is that as I learn more and more kanji, I start to recognize them at work. Documents, student names on their uniforms, and even the vocab in the student textbooks. Seeing more and more words as, "Hey, I know those words." is fun.

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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    Next month, new post. Sorry. Not much to report atm. I'm trying to focus on learning words. But I've run out of card to make little flash cards.

    Is there a website/program for making virtual flashcards? The pile of cards on my desk is a little ungainly. (Although it is pleasing to see it grow as I add more words to the pile.)

    I have two piles. Every time I get a word right it moves into the done pile. And once all the cards are in the done pile I start over. Normally I find repetition a bit tedious (see: duolingo) but since I'm always adding new cards to the pile it stays fresh.

    Tātua. Belt. Hāmua. Elder sibling. This one always gets me. They aren't too similar but they rhyme. Most of the elder/eldest/older/firstborn words are also confusing because they have similar meanings. I can get close to the correct answer but not hit the bullseye.

    Pāreti. Porridge. Parehe. Pizza.

    Edit- I've downloaded the first free flashcard app to my phone. This is pretty cool. It seems to track my stats on if i get the answers right. But I don't see how to mark an answer as wrong? So I've got 100% correct so far.

    Gvzbgul on
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    anki app is a flashcard app for your phone.
    https://www.ankiapp.com/

    It tracks all kinds of metrics and really helps you get a sense of how well you know words, and if you organize your flashcards into batches, you can get a sense of how you're developing on concepts and ideas/subjects.

    It is the best of the free apps by a country mile and is super, super easy to use.

    Edit: It also has card decks made by others easily and readily downloadable, although how useful those actually are is extremely hit and miss and there are a LOT of them.

    sarukun on
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Hey, that one's real good! Thanks. And it even has a few Maori decks. Which saves me time as I was beginning to find manually entering cards into the app I was using tedious.

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    I assure you, making new cards is tedious as fuuuuuuuck but once you get past a certain level, you will find there really is no substitute for it.

    sarukun on
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    halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    I was contemplating making a YouTube video translating a J-pop song into English along with a break down of grammar and why I chose the words I do. The issue is that Japanese is super nutty about copyright strikes, so I can't actually play the music. My first pick was the Evangelion opening theme, simply because it's so well known. I've recently watch some silly dance from a show called "Love is War". The song is called "Chikatto Chika Chika💗" 「チカっとチカ千花っ💗」but the lyrics are a little more...umm odd than I'm used to. (I also don't watch the show. I haven't really watched anime since around 2000). I don't really like doing humor or inside jokes, which this songs seems to be full of.

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    ZandraconZandracon Registered User regular
    i wonder how much the rise of smartphones and using the keyboard for writing has affected people's retention of stuff like stroke order

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    PeasPeas Registered User regular
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    halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    Dude, I crutch on IME so hard nowadays. Keep in mind that IME and autocompete are pretty much the same input system, so my English spelling has probably suffered as well. I haven't had to write a physical Japanese letter in over 20 years anyway. Keep in mind I still have to be able to count stokes and do radical selects for Kanji look-ups, so there are still things you have to manually. Jisho beats the heck out of going through a Nelson's.

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    TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    IME talk reminds me of a minor issue I've been experiencing.

    A month or so ago I enabled the Japanese language pack in windows 10. The 'key sequence' options (under Advanced keyboard settings, several layers deep) are extremely limited; and either I'm accidentally hitting the sequence or some combination of normal use triggers the switch.

    This is not a huge problem, except that certain symbols aren't generated in quite the same way. I've bound an extra key to switch back whenever I notice the problem (mostly when I go to open a parenthetical, type a colon and get a plus, or an underscore and get an equals).

    have you run across any way to extend those options? I'd prefer something much more unusual that I can then bind to a g-key and forget about.

    Tamin on
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    halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    I'm just using the default bindings and they work just fine. I have no need to bind a phyiscal a kanji key, kana lock, or the change/unchange key pair.
    Windows+Space flips between EN and JP and Shift-Capslock is the kana lock. I don't need the change keys as IME remembers your writing style and then you can use tab/up/down/space to select.

    I'm not following how you are having a problem. Are you trying to do something different then going in and out of IME (EN<->JP) or setting your kana lock? (A<->あ)?

    Basically, what are you trying to do your way, and I'll show how I do it my way.

    halkun on
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    TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    So, there are three different states in my setup. I'm not sure how they map. I don't see a shift+caps-lock setting anywhere, for example, and tapping that doesn't seem to do anything on this end.

    For the first, I see "ENG" on the taskbar. In this state the keyboard operates the way I'd expect. shift+9 opens a parentheses; shift+; puts in a colon, when I type 'a' I get 'a', and so on.


    I switch to the second state by tapping ctrl+shift; the taskbar shows jyAzBoS.jpg. In this state, I can type romaji sequences and the system automatically converts them to kana with predictive text and kanji options. Very helpful.


    The third state shows oXGRUcX.jpg and it's the issue. I go to open a parentheses or I need a colon and the output is something unexpected. I can intentionally switch between two and three with the ` character.


    And I don't know if it's a bug in windows, an issue with my hardware, some weird combination of the dozen keyboard shortcuts I use - or something else entirely - but suddenly I'll be in state two or three.

    My understanding is that there are a number of ways to toggle between ENG and あ (i.e., states one and two), some documented (win+space, ctrl+shift) and others not. In the same way, I can toggle between states two and three with documented (`) and undocumented (caps-lock) keypresses.



    My preference would be to reduce the number of ways to switch between state one and state two to 1, and then assign that to something ridiculous: the first four function keys, maybe. I can then assign this combination to a G-key and not have to worry about inserting kana at random moments。

    Tamin on
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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    Peas wrote: »
    I don't know when the last time I wrote a chinese word was

    I do, it was my name for a craft card swipe.

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    halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    In Windows 10, when you are in "ENG", you can flip back and forth between Japanese IME and ENG by using [Win+Space]
    While in Japanese IME, shift-capslock (Or alt-`) should switch between alphanumeric "A" mode and kana "あ" mode.

    Now, here is something to remember. The mode you are in IS NOT GLOBAL! Windows will remember what "mode" you are in based on the application that has focus. For example, if you are in IME, and are using notepad in "あ" mode, and then click on Chrome, IME will switch to "A" mode unless you put it into "あ" mode while in that application. Clicking back into notepad will reset it back into "あ" mode (It was the last mode you were in when you clicked off that application)
    Switching out of IME and back into ENG will globally put everything into ENG.

    To change the keybindings that flip between "A" or "あ" mode, go into Japanese IME (win+space), right click on the "A" or "あ" in the taskbar, and select "properties" and then "Advanced" at the bottom of the window that popped up.
    In the advanced settings, make sure you are in the "General" tab, and then under "Editing operation and behavior" section, find "Key template:" and click "Advanced" on the way right.

    The default template should be "Microsoft IME" if it's not, select that from the drop down to reset you keybindings
    In the "No Input/Converted..." column select the row with the key you want to bind and hit "modify"
    To bind the key to flip between "A" or "あ" mode, you select the "IME ON/OFF" function (I know, it's strange)
    The template should now be "Custom". To reset your changes go back to the "Microsoft IME" template.

    halkun on
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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I know but at times I forget to switch it back from Japanese or Korean to English

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