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Dinos and Druids, A Tasty Romp through Table Top Games

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Posts

  • GrogGrog My sword is only steel in a useful shape.Registered User regular
    Was thinking more just chuck it directly at your enemy's face, without having to feel bad about the cat getting hurt.

  • RingoRingo He/Him Bury me at Lone Tree DenRegistered User regular
    Grog wrote: »
    Was thinking more just chuck it directly at your enemy's face, without having to feel bad about the cat getting hurt.

    That's valid

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    I think a raven animal companion has a ton of potential. Mine is a giant dog who is roughly as good at combat as me (middling), essentially giving me an extra turn. He can also sniff things good, carry messages, dig a big hole and bury me in it...

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Useful thing about a big fucking dog is that they're scary in a way people sort of aren't

    Like yeah as a Vampire you can fuck someone up, but if you want to intimate someone without showing your weird nature? Having a big dog growling at them will absolutely do that. And if it's a dog you can direct with supernatural control, you can definitely scare people shitless with Rover.

    RingoStraightziNeoToma
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    one of Dogfood's plays is to act like she's being terrorised by a feral dog, and then when some brave soul gets between them put the chomp down on them.

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    I mean I feel like the muscle team is 89% likely to try and double-cross you and take the thing you're after too, but I assume you have a contingency for that.

  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Grog wrote: »
    Was thinking more just chuck it directly at your enemy's face, without having to feel bad about the cat getting hurt.

    back in a really early 3.5 campaign I played in my wizard had a housecat familiar

    one time I snuck into a barracks containing about 12 sleeping orcs and my housecat coup de graced every single one of them without waking the rest up, it was incredibly funny

    DarkPrimussee317TofystedethShadowenBahamutZERORhesus PositiveRingoGrogToxDuke 2.0Mahnmutnever die
  • Desert LeviathanDesert Leviathan Once I ate a pizza so big, they gave me a prize. Then I threw up and they took it back.Registered User regular
    Roll20 has had a security breach. No financial data appears to have been compromised, but change your passwords ASAP.

    https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/7209691/roll20-security-breach

    Formerly the Hanged Man
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Roll20 has had a security breach. No financial data appears to have been compromised, but change your passwords ASAP.

    https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/7209691/roll20-security-breach

    Well crap.

    steam_sig.png
  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    i have updated my password, thanks for the heads up.

    Bucketman
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Anybody know any good 5E monster creation apps? There was a fantastic one for 4E that I used often. I want to make monsters in 5E, but the rules in the DMG are much less intuitive than 4E's were.

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  • DrDinosaurDrDinosaur Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Anybody know any good 5E monster creation apps? There was a fantastic one for 4E that I used often. I want to make monsters in 5E, but the rules in the DMG are much less intuitive than 4E's were.

    I use the Improved Monster Stats table, fairly happy with the results

  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    GMs: do you have go-to voices to use for NPCs?

    I’m in an intrigue and talky part of my campaign and I need to keep the characters straight in my head

    I’ve mentally dubbed them:
    • Hyacinth Bucket from Keeping Up Appearances
    • Inspector Clouseau
    • Arthur from Cabin Pressure
    • Long John Silver
    • Generic Posh Guy
    • Generic Posh Lady
    • Mystic Meg
    • Douglas from Cabin Pressure
    • Matt Berry

    Plus a revolving cast of Me, Pitched Up or Down

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Anybody know any good 5E monster creation apps? There was a fantastic one for 4E that I used often. I want to make monsters in 5E, but the rules in the DMG are much less intuitive than 4E's were.

    Making monsters in 5e is a lot less precise and cookie cutter than 4e was. There's a bit less of a "this cr always means these numbers" type of scale. The biggest factor to consider is, how much damage it can do a round and how many rounds it should survive.

    It's definitely not as straightforward as 4e was, but you can also build the monster up front then walk through the steps to figure out what needs tweaking to get the numbers worked out to about the right cr.

    Like what are you actually trying to design for a monster? What do you want it to do? Is it any particular creature type already in existence?

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    I just finished reading this interesting article comparing the numbers in the DMG's guidelines to monsters in the Monster Manual, which reveals some wild discrepancies:

    Blog of Holding: The 5E Monster Creation Guidelines are Wrong

    I also read this article, which argues that the DMG's explanation of the monster creation rules is poorly executed and attempts to offer an alternative:

    The Angry GM: The D&D Monster Dissection Lab
    Sleep wrote: »
    Like what are you actually trying to design for a monster? What do you want it to do? Is it any particular creature type already in existence?

    Personally I'd like to try converting several 4E monsters.

    Hexmage-PA on
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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I just finished reading this interesting article comparing the numbers in the DMG's guidelines to monsters in the Monster Manual, which reveals some wild discrepancies:

    Blog of Holding: The 5E Monster Creation Guidelines are Wrong

    I also read this article, which argues that the DMG's explanation of the monster creation rules is poorly executed and attempts to offer an alternative:

    The Angry GM: The D&D Monster Dissection Lab
    Sleep wrote: »
    Like what are you actually trying to design for a monster? What do you want it to do? Is it any particular creature type already in existence?

    Personally I'd like to try converting several 4E monsters.

    Yeah that blog of holding entry isn't doing you any favors. That it even tries to map CR directly to hit points belies a drastic misunderstanding of the guidelines.

    A cr 20 monster could have 40 hit points given its got a high enough AC and its main attack can guaranteedly do enough damage.

    For instance the reason a goblin is a cr 1/4, but only has 7 hit points is because its AC is 15 which puts its defensive cr at 1/4th instead of 1/8th, and its offensive cr is 1/4 (+4 to hit, 5 dmg average). Average the offensive and defensive cr and you have the final cr which is 1/4 even though it has 7hp. I could take this goblin and make it CR 1 simply by giving it two attacks a round, so it could be CR 1 with 7 HP.

    Basically, while there are definitely some outliers that stretch and break the monster building guidelines in the MM that's actually not the norm and a bunch of the entries actually match up once you actually do the work to pick apart the monster and consider all its aspects.

    Which is actually the real problem most folks have with the 5e building guidelines, they're alot less step by step building guidelines where you put in "I want CR X which means i get HP Y, AC Z, attack bonus A, and damage value B".

    It works a lot better to build first then run through the CR consideration and figure out where and what to tweak to get it where you want it.

    When I do conversion of old content I usually start with the stat array. I forget if the number explosion of 4e applied to ability scores, but you may need to do some mathematical conversion there to get the numbers to agree with the number scale of 5e. Once you're over that hurdle 4e is actually one of the easiest to convert because of how well the powers are broken down. You can essentially do the math conversion to get all the numbers to be more agreeable to the mechanics of 5e then run through the CR calculation as presented in the DMs workshop section of the DMG to figure out what the CR of the converted monster you just got a rough draft on is. Then tweak from there.

    Sleep on
  • MolotovCockatooMolotovCockatoo Registered User regular
    GMs: do you have go-to voices to use for NPCs?

    I’m in an intrigue and talky part of my campaign and I need to keep the characters straight in my head

    I’ve mentally dubbed them:
    • Hyacinth Bucket from Keeping Up Appearances
    • Inspector Clouseau
    • Arthur from Cabin Pressure
    • Long John Silver
    • Generic Posh Guy
    • Generic Posh Lady
    • Mystic Meg
    • Douglas from Cabin Pressure
    • Matt Berry

    Plus a revolving cast of Me, Pitched Up or Down

    Accents/Voices are tricky in general and downright unfeasible for many. One good trick I've heard (and used myself) is to think less about NPC accents per se and more verbal tics that signify them. For example calling everyone the same pet name like "Dude", or beginning or ending every utterance with the same word, or speaking in question form as much as possible. Similarly you can do a lot with a physical tic like smoking an imaginary cigarette all the time, or holding the brim of your imaginary cowboy hat, it helps you get into the character's headspace and helps the players know when that character is speaking and the focus of the interaction so to speak.

    But also like you mention here a great go-to if you have facility for it is to just copy a very distinct performance e.g. Hyacinth Bucket. I find that helps also create more interesting interactions because as a DM I feel like I know what that character might do and how they might respond which is different than how I the GM as a normal person might respond, thus making it seem like the players are having a unique interaction and not just arguing with [me but in a mask].

    As for what's going on specifically in my game, I have one NPC follower who is like a warrior-monk-philosopher type so naturally I'm doing a bit of Chirrut Imwe from Rogue One and various other classic kung fu pastiches. I also try to fold my arms inside an imaginary gi a la Toshiro Mifune. I also have a snooty wizard NPC who literally looks down his nose at people and always has his spellbook and is flipping through it constantly (or snapping it closed in impertinent people's faces). You'd be surprised how much this sort of thing helps, just tilting my head back and regarding the player like I would a pesky bug and they know they're talking to Rovilar the Red before I even utter a word.

    Killjoy wrote: »
    No jeez Orik why do you assume the worst about people?

    Because he moderates an internet forum

    http://lexiconmegatherium.tumblr.com/
    Rhesus PositiveTofystedethRingo
  • Desert LeviathanDesert Leviathan Once I ate a pizza so big, they gave me a prize. Then I threw up and they took it back.Registered User regular
    GMs: do you have go-to voices to use for NPCs?

    I’m in an intrigue and talky part of my campaign and I need to keep the characters straight in my head

    I’ve mentally dubbed them:
    • Hyacinth Bucket from Keeping Up Appearances
    • Inspector Clouseau
    • Arthur from Cabin Pressure
    • Long John Silver
    • Generic Posh Guy
    • Generic Posh Lady
    • Mystic Meg
    • Douglas from Cabin Pressure
    • Matt Berry

    Plus a revolving cast of Me, Pitched Up or Down

    I think most of my NPCs have a more developed voice inside my head than actually finds its way out through my mouth, but one that leaps to mind is that at some point I rejected the idea that All Dwarfs Are Scottish and decided instead that Dwarf Nobility Are Monty Python French.

    Formerly the Hanged Man
    Ringo
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Sleep wrote: »
    For instance the reason a goblin is a cr 1/4, but only has 7 hit points is because its AC is 15 which puts its defensive cr at 1/4th instead of 1/8th, and its offensive cr is 1/4 (+4 to hit, 5 dmg average). Average the offensive and defensive cr and you have the final cr which is 1/4 even though it has 7hp.

    I've only made one monster by using the DMG guidelines (well, attempting to use them) and about halfway through I just started looking at monsters of the same CR to copy what they had. The resulting monster seemed to be a lot more lethal than pretty much anything else I've used, with it knocking a PC to zero hp both times I've used it.

    I gave the creature, Elder Peryton, flight, a gore attack that also forced the target to save versus being knocked prone, the ability to automatically grapple with a talon attack, and a trait that allowed it to carry grappled creatures without its speed being affected. It would swoop-in, grab a PC, then carry it away to attack at its leisure. It couldn't last long under focused fire, though.

    EDIT: I will say I liked how both times I used the Elder Peryton it forced the party to save the PC it downed.

    Hexmage-PA on
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  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Pathfinder had a similar issue. If you built NPCs using the bestiary guidelines, you'd tend to get something that fit fairly well into the CR system. If you built an NPC using the GM Guide, you'd get a character that was massively underpowered.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    k3la1mg8n5c5.jpg

    Blog of Holding: 5E Monster Manual on a Business Card

    In the previous entries before this one the author goes pretty in-depth, comparing MM monsters to MToF's monsters and examining interviews with D&D designer Jeremy Crawford. Apparently the D&D production team has been using the same Excel spreadsheet to make monsters for five years, and the DMG guidelines were an attempt to simplify and explain what the internally-used spreadsheet does.

    Hexmage-PA on
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    BucketmanDarkPrimus
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    For instance the reason a goblin is a cr 1/4, but only has 7 hit points is because its AC is 15 which puts its defensive cr at 1/4th instead of 1/8th, and its offensive cr is 1/4 (+4 to hit, 5 dmg average). Average the offensive and defensive cr and you have the final cr which is 1/4 even though it has 7hp.

    I've only made one monster by using the DMG guidelines (well, attempting to use them) and about halfway through I just started looking at monsters of the same CR to copy what they had. The resulting monster seemed to be a lot more lethal than pretty much anything else I've used, with it knocking a PC to zero hp both times I've used it.

    I gave the creature, Elder Peryton, flight, a gore attack that also forced the target to save versus being knocked prone, the ability to automatically grapple with a talon attack, and a trait that allowed it to carry grappled creatures without its speed being affected. It would swoop-in, grab a PC, then carry it away to attack at its leisure.

    So that part where you just grabbed the numbers from a creature with the CR you are looking for is flawed.

    You actually have to answer the questions for your monster on your own and can't just pull from similarly CR'd creatures cause 2 creatures with the same CR can have wildly different numbers.

    By increasing the lethality of the monster you've increased the CR even if none of the HP, AC, or attack bonus values have changed.

    Like I said I can take the CR on a goblin from 1/4 to 1 simply by giving it a second attack with its scimitar or shortbow. Same exact AC, HP, Attack Bonus, and damage per hit as the CR 1/4 but able to put out more damage via the second attack so it is considered a higher CR.

    If you give me the exact values for your monster (AC, HP, attack bonuses, and damage values on its attacks) I can help target the CR on it.

    You're also doing a thing that complicates your process. Because the damage is going to vary turn to turn, you can't just base the creatures CR on its strongest attack you have to take its attack progression for the first three rounds: gore, talon, talon (assuming one attack a round) average that, and use that average value to search the damage by round column.

    As well in practice the threat of the actual encounter is different from the CR of the monster depending on the circumstances of the encounter, but that's a whole different thing that doesn't totally affect its monster building CR calculation.

    Sleep on
  • ElddrikElddrik Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Sleep wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I just finished reading this interesting article comparing the numbers in the DMG's guidelines to monsters in the Monster Manual, which reveals some wild discrepancies:

    Blog of Holding: The 5E Monster Creation Guidelines are Wrong

    I also read this article, which argues that the DMG's explanation of the monster creation rules is poorly executed and attempts to offer an alternative:

    The Angry GM: The D&D Monster Dissection Lab
    Sleep wrote: »
    Like what are you actually trying to design for a monster? What do you want it to do? Is it any particular creature type already in existence?

    Personally I'd like to try converting several 4E monsters.

    Yeah that blog of holding entry isn't doing you any favors. That it even tries to map CR directly to hit points belies a drastic misunderstanding of the guidelines.

    A cr 20 monster could have 40 hit points given its got a high enough AC and its main attack can guaranteedly do enough damage.

    For instance the reason a goblin is a cr 1/4, but only has 7 hit points is because its AC is 15 which puts its defensive cr at 1/4th instead of 1/8th, and its offensive cr is 1/4 (+4 to hit, 5 dmg average). Average the offensive and defensive cr and you have the final cr which is 1/4 even though it has 7hp. I could take this goblin and make it CR 1 simply by giving it two attacks a round, so it could be CR 1 with 7 HP.

    Basically, while there are definitely some outliers that stretch and break the monster building guidelines in the MM that's actually not the norm and a bunch of the entries actually match up once you actually do the work to pick apart the monster and consider all its aspects.

    Which is actually the real problem most folks have with the 5e building guidelines, they're alot less step by step building guidelines where you put in "I want CR X which means i get HP Y, AC Z, attack bonus A, and damage value B".

    It works a lot better to build first then run through the CR consideration and figure out where and what to tweak to get it where you want it.

    When I do conversion of old content I usually start with the stat array. I forget if the number explosion of 4e applied to ability scores, but you may need to do some mathematical conversion there to get the numbers to agree with the number scale of 5e. Once you're over that hurdle 4e is actually one of the easiest to convert because of how well the powers are broken down. You can essentially do the math conversion to get all the numbers to be more agreeable to the mechanics of 5e then run through the CR calculation as presented in the DMs workshop section of the DMG to figure out what the CR of the converted monster you just got a rough draft on is. Then tweak from there.

    The problem with this is that it doesn't really.....work.

    If you try to assume that AC and HP are the same thing, you get wildly unpredictable results. A CR 20 monster with 40 HP and infinite AC is going to die the first time a spellcaster takes a turn. It really is important to keep both the AC and HP within a reasonable expected range if you want to get a reasonable expected result, and the concepts of 'defensive CR' and 'offensive CR' really don't do much but muddy the waters. The 5E designers wanted to have a more old-school feel where monsters of the same HD might have very different overall capabilities, but they didn't really succeed in that goal I feel.

    Additionally, it's not just a few outliers in the MM. Very few monsters in the MM have the CR that they should have according to the DMG guidelines. This is because the MM monsters were not built with the DMG guidelines, or at least, they only used them as a base. The CR and stats of MM monsters was determined by playstesting primarily, while the DMG guidelines were not updated for playtest results in the same way. As a result they are totally out of whack. (I have a spreadsheet with the MM monster stats, and they are pretty much nowhere near the DMG guidelines the majority of the time.)

    Blog of Holding's "MM on a business card" is the one I'd use if I were making monsters.

    http://blogofholding.com/?p=7338

    Elddrik on
    Newest DTRPG:
    Starlight Express
  • DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    unless it's a specific fight I'm building, like, a boss or a gimmick battle, I just kinda wing it with NPCs/monsters

    they have Enough HP and AC

    Starfinder, though, has a pretty good creation system, so I'll handcraft with that

    ZonugalSleepDesert Leviathan
  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    I'm currently revising almost every monster/creature stat-block in 5E for my campaign setting and I currently don't even care about CR.

    I'm focused on what just feels right within the world.

    For example, these are the stats for Dopplegangers currently:
    Doppleganger
    Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), neutral
    AC: 14; HP: 52 (8d8+16); Speed: 30 ft.; Saving Throws: --
    Str 11 (+0), Dex 18 (+4), Con 14 (+2), Int 11 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 14 (+2)
    Skills/Feats: Deception +6 & Insight +3
    Proficiencies: Light & medium armor; simple & martial weapons
    Condition Immunities: Charmed
    Senses: passive Perception 11, darkvision 60 ft.; Languages: Common
    Special Abilities
    Shapechanger. The doppelganger can use its action to polymorph into a Small or Medium humanoid it has seen, or back into its true form. Its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
    Ambusher. The doppelganger has advantage on attack rolls against any creature it has surprised. Surprise Attack. If the doppelganger surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 10 (3d6) damage from the attack.
    Actions
    Multiattack. The doppelganger makes two melee attacks.
    Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
    Read Thoughts. The doppelganger magically reads the surface thoughts of one creature within 60 feet of it. The effect can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of wood or dirt, 2 feet of stone, 2 inches of metal, or a thin sheet of lead blocks it. While the target is in range, the doppelganger can continue reading its thoughts, as long as the doppelganger's concentration isn't broken (as if concentrating on a spell). While reading the target's mind, the doppelganger has advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion) checks against the target.

    I don't like these because I believe they are too focused on combat, which I think should be the least important element for a Doppleganger. I also believe that, with those stats, they are actually pretty shitty at their role of subsuming people's identities.

    So I rebuilt them like this:
    Doppleganger
    Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), chaotic neutral
    AC: 11; HP: 33 (5d8+5); Speed: 30 ft.; Saving Throws: Constitution +4 & Charisma +7
    Str 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 18 (+4)
    Skills/Feats: Deception +10, Insight +7, Intimidation +7, Perception +4, Persuasion +7, & Thieves’ Tools +3
    Proficiencies: Light & medium armor; simple & martial weapons
    Condition Immunities: Charmed
    Senses: passive Perception 14, darkvision 60 ft.; Languages: Common
    Special Abilities
    Shapechanger. The doppelganger can use its action to polymorph into a Small or Medium humanoid it has seen, or back into its true form. Its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
    Adaptive Disguise. Once per long rest a Doppleganger may reorient it’s mind to adapt to a new persona. In doing so it gains proficiency in one skill, one tool, and a new language. The Doppleganger maintains proficiency in these till it chooses to adopt a new persona, performed after a long rest.
    Innate Spellcasting. The Doppleganger's spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 20). The Doppleganger can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
    -- At will: Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, & Enlarge/Reduce
    -- 1/day each: Enhance Ability
    Actions
    Dagger. Melee weapon attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft./60 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4+1) slashing damage; finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)
    ---
    Equipment: a belt pouch (15 gp), a set of common clothes, a dagger, a Cloak of Many Fashions, & thieves’ tools

    They aren't that crazy in combat but they shouldn't be. These guys should excel in the social pillar of the game.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    We robbed the train. We got the artefact.
    My contact was a traitor.

    My dog got stabbed.

    I received a mysterious note.

    It was pretty harrowing

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    (the dog is fine, Bubba is a fucking unit)

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

    Rhesus PositiveTynnanSleepcaptainkLaOsDuke 2.0milskiBahamutZEROBlake TToxDonovan Puppyfuckernever dieEtchwartstzeentchlingMatevBucketmanironsizide
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Zonugal wrote: »
    I'm currently revising almost every monster/creature stat-block in 5E for my campaign setting and I currently don't even care about CR.

    I'm focused on what just feels right within the world.

    For example, these are the stats for Dopplegangers currently:
    Doppleganger
    Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), neutral
    AC: 14; HP: 52 (8d8+16); Speed: 30 ft.; Saving Throws: --
    Str 11 (+0), Dex 18 (+4), Con 14 (+2), Int 11 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 14 (+2)
    Skills/Feats: Deception +6 & Insight +3
    Proficiencies: Light & medium armor; simple & martial weapons
    Condition Immunities: Charmed
    Senses: passive Perception 11, darkvision 60 ft.; Languages: Common
    Special Abilities
    Shapechanger. The doppelganger can use its action to polymorph into a Small or Medium humanoid it has seen, or back into its true form. Its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
    Ambusher. The doppelganger has advantage on attack rolls against any creature it has surprised. Surprise Attack. If the doppelganger surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 10 (3d6) damage from the attack.
    Actions
    Multiattack. The doppelganger makes two melee attacks.
    Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
    Read Thoughts. The doppelganger magically reads the surface thoughts of one creature within 60 feet of it. The effect can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of wood or dirt, 2 feet of stone, 2 inches of metal, or a thin sheet of lead blocks it. While the target is in range, the doppelganger can continue reading its thoughts, as long as the doppelganger's concentration isn't broken (as if concentrating on a spell). While reading the target's mind, the doppelganger has advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion) checks against the target.

    I don't like these because I believe they are too focused on combat, which I think should be the least important element for a Doppleganger. I also believe that, with those stats, they are actually pretty shitty at their role of subsuming people's identities.

    So I rebuilt them like this:
    Doppleganger
    Medium monstrosity (shapechanger), chaotic neutral
    AC: 11; HP: 33 (5d8+5); Speed: 30 ft.; Saving Throws: Constitution +4 & Charisma +7
    Str 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 18 (+4)
    Skills/Feats: Deception +10, Insight +7, Intimidation +7, Perception +4, Persuasion +7, & Thieves’ Tools +3
    Proficiencies: Light & medium armor; simple & martial weapons
    Condition Immunities: Charmed
    Senses: passive Perception 14, darkvision 60 ft.; Languages: Common
    Special Abilities
    Shapechanger. The doppelganger can use its action to polymorph into a Small or Medium humanoid it has seen, or back into its true form. Its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
    Adaptive Disguise. Once per long rest a Doppleganger may reorient it’s mind to adapt to a new persona. In doing so it gains proficiency in one skill, one tool, and a new language. The Doppleganger maintains proficiency in these till it chooses to adopt a new persona, performed after a long rest.
    Innate Spellcasting. The Doppleganger's spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 20). The Doppleganger can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
    -- At will: Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, & Enlarge/Reduce
    -- 1/day each: Enhance Ability
    Actions
    Dagger. Melee weapon attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft./60 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4+1) slashing damage; finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)
    ---
    Equipment: a belt pouch (15 gp), a set of common clothes, a dagger, a Cloak of Many Fashions, & thieves’ tools

    They aren't that crazy in combat but they shouldn't be. These guys should excel in the social pillar of the game.

    So if we CR these out the MM version comes out to the average CR of 2.25. 52 HP and an AC of 14 puts its defensive CR at 1/2.

    Its offensive CR assumes you're gonna get the drop with them. Its first 3 rounds of combat are:
    Round 1: 2 attacks with advantage that do about 17 damage each (34 damage)
    Round 2: 2 attacks that do about 7 damage each (14 damage)
    Round 3: 14 damage again

    This results in 62 damage which we average to get 20.5 damage which they round to 21. We also have a to hit of +6 which bounces us from offensive CR 3 to offensive CR 4

    So that gives us a total CR of (4+0.5)/2=2.25 which they rounded up to 3.

    Your doppleganger is sitting at a very strange place because it's got a high proficiency but garbage combat stats.

    It's essentially a CR 0. The spell save is the only thing that's actually off though, that should be 15 if you're actually sticking with the math (8+mod+prof bonus)

    Sleep on
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I don't think I could bring myself to kill my players' animals

    Although the Big Bad killed our Druid's animal companion in the first game of D&D I played in, and it gave us some added motivation to hunt him down

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Sleep wrote: »
    It's essentially a CR 0.
    I hold the opinion that not all monsters should be threats in the domain of combat.

    Which apparently is an opinion that goes against the very nature of the CR system.

    Zonugal on
    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
    Straightzi
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    It's essentially a CR 0.
    I hold the opinion that not all monsters should be threats in the domain of combat.

    Which apparently is an opinion that goes against the very nature of the CR system.

    DnD kind of only has rules for interfacing with monsters via combat so CR makes sense to me.

    I love monsters being threats in other ways, just DnD isn’t mechanically set up for it.

    StraightziZonugalSleepBahamutZEROwebguy20gtrmpAlbino BunnyMatev
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    It's essentially a CR 0.
    I hold the opinion that not all monsters should be threats in the domain of combat.

    Which apparently is an opinion that goes against the very nature of the CR system.

    DnD kind of only has rules for interfacing with monsters via combat so CR makes sense to me.

    I love monsters being threats in other ways, just DnD isn’t mechanically set up for it.

    Mainly because as soon as someone figures out thats a doppleganger... they're gonna try to either kill it or knock it out. Unless you've rigged up some external reason they aren't allowed to take that action.

  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    edited February 2019
    Sleep wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    It's essentially a CR 0.
    I hold the opinion that not all monsters should be threats in the domain of combat.

    Which apparently is an opinion that goes against the very nature of the CR system.

    DnD kind of only has rules for interfacing with monsters via combat so CR makes sense to me.

    I love monsters being threats in other ways, just DnD isn’t mechanically set up for it.

    Mainly because as soon as someone figures out thats a doppleganger... they're gonna try to either kill it or knock it out. Unless you've rigged up some external reason they aren't allowed to take that action.

    But then we may not get the situation of the Doppleganger knocking over the only lantern in the room, in the temporary darkness it quickly disguising itself as a member of the party, and the party having to figure out which is which.

    Zonugal on
    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    It's essentially a CR 0.
    I hold the opinion that not all monsters should be threats in the domain of combat.

    Which apparently is an opinion that goes against the very nature of the CR system.

    DnD kind of only has rules for interfacing with monsters via combat so CR makes sense to me.

    I love monsters being threats in other ways, just DnD isn’t mechanically set up for it.

    Mainly because as soon as someone figures out thats a doppleganger... they're gonna try to either kill it or knock it out. Unless you've rigged up some external reason they aren't allowed to take that action.

    But then we may not get the situation of the Doppleganger knocking over the only lantern in the room, in the temporary darkness it quickly disguising itself as a member of the party, and the party having to figure out which is which.

    Knock em both to 0 hp the doppleganger will revert heal the party member.

  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Good to see all situations can be solved by violence.

    Cool, good stuff.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
    Duke 2.0Tox
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    It's essentially a CR 0.
    I hold the opinion that not all monsters should be threats in the domain of combat.

    Which apparently is an opinion that goes against the very nature of the CR system.

    DnD kind of only has rules for interfacing with monsters via combat so CR makes sense to me.

    I love monsters being threats in other ways, just DnD isn’t mechanically set up for it.

    Mainly because as soon as someone figures out thats a doppleganger... they're gonna try to either kill it or knock it out. Unless you've rigged up some external reason they aren't allowed to take that action.

    Why do you think that's the case?

    A doppelganger is just a thousand different friends you haven't met yet

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Good to see all situations can be solved by violence.

    Cool, good stuff.

    It's a question posed by stargate if you can't tell which of your teammates is goauld and which is tokra zat em both and sort it later.

    Donovan Puppyfucker
  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    "Alright, here's the plan: we're going to stab you both and the--"
    "What?"
    "Well, upon death one of you will revert to the Doppleganger's true form."
    "But we don't have a healer within our adventuring party."
    "Sounds like something a Doppelganger would say! Stab them!"

    I'm seeing some issues in this plan.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
    RingoBucketman
  • Duke 2.0Duke 2.0 Time Trash Cat Registered User regular
    The twins fight eachother. If they cannot take on a doppelgänger in single combat they were not going to pull their murderhobo weight.

    VRXwDW7.png
    ZonugalRingotzeentchling
  • ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Duke 2.0 wrote: »
    The twins fight eachother. If they cannot take on a doppelgänger in single combat they were not going to pull their murderhobo weight.

    This is a perfect solution.

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
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