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US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

BogartBogart Because I hate youRegistered User, Moderator mod
edited January 16 in Debate and/or Discourse
Dear America,

Your government seems to have shutdown unexpectedly.

Would you like to restart?

Talk about it all here.

So It Goes on
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Posts

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    And here I hoped when the thread got shut down the shutdown would be over

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • OghulkOghulk biggest externality low-energy economistRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    And here I hoped when the thread got shut down the shutdown would be over

    But that probably would've involved Republicans deciding they wanted to compromise or something

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Great, now to go with a government shutdown, we have a thread shutdown, and to go with half assed proposals and bullshit, we have a...n appropriately concise thread OP leading us into the discussion.

    >.>

    It was asked in the last thread, but I may have missed the answer; is there a deadline we should be watching for at which point the next paycheque is also likely fucked (delayed for most, that is, but if people are already looking to sell stuff on Craigslist, I'm guessing a second cheque getting held back would be catastrophic for a bunch of them, and push even previously semi-comfortable folks into uncomfortable territory).

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    It's not even compromise. It's agreeing to what they already agreed to before.

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  • jgeisjgeis Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Bogart wrote: »
    Dear America,

    Your government seems to have shutdown unexpectedly.

    Would you like to restart?

    Talk about it all here.

    Can we just install a different operating system instead?


    So with Trump basically holding on to the idea of declaring a national emergency, when is that likely to happen? He's already done the performative "negotiation" with Schumer and Pelosi following his address, and Lindsey Graham is egging him on, so I kind of assumed it would come down today.

    jgeis on
    [
    A Kobold's KoboldJoolanderSiernan
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Dear America,

    Your government seems to have shutdown unexpectedly.

    Would you like to restart?

    Talk about it all here.

    I don't know if a restart will fix this. We're in reinstall territory at least.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Not even a poll? I know your country is committing ritual suicide at the moment, but if you're going to ask a question in the OP there should be a poll.

    Elvenshae
  • TaximesTaximes Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

    Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.


    Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

    Taximes on
    Dracomicron
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    Dear America,

    Your government seems to have shutdown unexpectedly.

    Would you like to restart?

    Talk about it all here.

    I don't know if a restart will fix this. We're in reinstall territory at least.

    What if we just replace the exe?

    DoodmannPolaritiemonikerFencingsaxRchanenBrodyKoopahTroopahSmrtnikGnome-InterruptusLeeksDoctor DetroitBullheadForarEvil MultifariousmRahmaniAridholkimeZilla360The SauceShadowhopeElvenshaeMartini_PhilosopherTetraNitroCubanejdarksunArbitraryDescriptorToxNobeardElJeffeSnicketysnickJaysonFourYoutubeSkeithJoolanderTicaldfjamMidniteCalicaGennenalyse RuebenElldrenDuke 2.0Kristmas KthulhuCommander ZoomRickRudeMan in the MistsRhesus PositiveFlying CouchHonkStabbity StyleShadowfireTofystedethelectricitylikesmeboogedybooBrutal JmiscellaneousinsanityArmorocFoolOnTheHillCommunistCowJazzmjn6172wandering
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Day 21

    Three weeks with half the Government unfunded and no end in sight. Maybe we should stop running the Government like a business and run it like a Government.

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    edited January 11
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    Like yes, it's a thing these people shouldn't have to worry about, but also, something that kind of exacerbates the whole shutdown problem while it looks like something that might get pulled out more and more frequently. So I'm torn, but would still probably vote for it.

    Ilpala on
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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    I'm not because he's complaining about us taking the gun out of his hand

    Psn:wazukki
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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    He does have a point that a move like this will likely make shutdowns more common.

    But it’s not the employees who should be punished if the government shuts down.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Never do what your enemy expects you to do! Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    He's not wrong. Putting safeguards in effect to mitigate damage from shutdowns just makes it easier to justify shutting down the government. This idea is a step towards normalizing the practice.

    Broken clocks being right twice a day and all that.

    Undead Scottsman on
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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    He does have a point that a move like this will likely make shutdowns more common.

    But it’s not the employees who should be punished if the government shuts down.

    It will make them less likely because they won't have leverage. There will be no reason to shut down the government because it won't provide them leverage

    Psn:wazukki
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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    At the end of the day, the fact that shutdowns like this are possible at all is the problem, so making them more likely by taking away a possible consequence (and thus lever for pressure to end it) isn't a concern if legislation can be crafted to prevent them in the first place.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    The logic in that is backwards. The law should make shutdowns less likely, not more likely, because a shutdown is only as useful as long as it hurts people in order to get the other side to blink. If people are less hurt by a shutdown (minor as this may be), then the incentive to do one decreases.

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  • SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    Taximes wrote: »
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

    Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.


    Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

    Wait, if they can do that, can they just pass something that says "in the event of budget disagreement, funding levels will continue an existing levels". Just do that, and this never happens again.

    Or does that fall into "binding future Congress" territory?

    TaximesArbitraryDescriptorDracomicronelectricitylikesme
  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    I don't think this shutdown can last much longer.

    Eventually the TSA people and the ATC people are going to have to quit. Just because they will get a future paycheck will not get them a current paycheck to put food in their stomachs and a roof over their head.

    And when the Airports either shut down or slow to a crawl, Republican Senators are going to get calls from very rich people who can legitimately say things like "You're afraid of Trump? You should be afraid of me!"

    shryke wrote: »
    The Democrats aren't crazy but they are still, you know, running the US and it's foreign policy. Which is in the "you don't have a global hegemony without bombing a few eggs" wheelhouse.
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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    It should not be possible to shut down the government. The two options would be to immediately hold elections, which is not really feesable in our system and for our size, or make it so a "shut down" doesn't actually mean anything.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Selner wrote: »
    Taximes wrote: »
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

    Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.


    Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

    Wait, if they can do that, can they just pass something that says "in the event of budget disagreement, funding levels will continue an existing levels". Just do that, and this never happens again.

    Or does that fall into "binding future Congress" territory?

    That falls into "Trump would have a tantrum" category.

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  • TuminTumin Registered User regular
    Under the bill, workers won't get paid until the "earliest pay date possible after the lapse in appropriations ends".

    It does not relieve any pressure during the shutdown or help employees make ends meet. Still dont like normalizing shutdowns but it doesnt relieve any pressure during them.

    Fencingsaxelectricitylikesme
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    WashPo continues putting stories of the effects of the shutdown on the front page. All of them pretty predictable.

    Federal Prison guards are not paid and like the TSA folks are calling out sick and they are using non-standard personnel to make up for it.

    FEMA put stop orders out on many preparedness contracts

    A good timeline of what is happening and will happen

    We are 7 days from the Judiciary shutting down.

    03x29di.png
  • TaximesTaximes Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    If people start quitting, do they forfeit the backpay they would have otherwise gotten? Can you even quit when the people you would give notice to aren't working either?

    Exciting new questions we've never had to face before because this bullshit has never lasted this long.

    Taximes on
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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Never do what your enemy expects you to do! Registered User regular
    wazilla wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    I'm not because he's complaining about us taking the gun out of his hand

    Taking away people's money for weeks or months is still a powerful and damaging move, even if they get paid at the end now.

    Gun is still there, they're just offering medical assistance after the bullets fly, now.

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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Selner wrote: »
    Taximes wrote: »
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

    Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.


    Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

    Wait, if they can do that, can they just pass something that says "in the event of budget disagreement, funding levels will continue an existing levels". Just do that, and this never happens again.

    Or does that fall into "binding future Congress" territory?

    It doesn't bind future Congress as they would likely throw a waiver condition in there that they could use to ignore it, but would have to take a vote to do so. Same as how PAYGO works

    Psn:wazukki
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    WashPo continues putting stories of the effects of the shutdown on the front page. All of them pretty predictable.

    Federal Prison guards are not paid and like the TSA folks are calling out sick and they are using non-standard personnel to make up for it.

    FEMA put stop orders out on many preparedness contracts

    A good timeline of what is happening and will happen

    We are 7 days from the Judiciary shutting down.

    oh, now I see their plan

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    WashPo continues putting stories of the effects of the shutdown on the front page. All of them pretty predictable.

    Federal Prison guards are not paid and like the TSA folks are calling out sick and they are using non-standard personnel to make up for it.

    FEMA put stop orders out on many preparedness contracts

    A good timeline of what is happening and will happen

    We are 7 days from the Judiciary shutting down.

    oh, now I see their plan

    Nah, more like criminal courts. The Supreme Court and the main appellate courts will still be working. This would probably hurt what they want more than help. Also though judges are suppose to be non-partisan this probably won't make the Judiciary look at them and their arguments with a kind eye.

    03x29di.png
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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited January 11
    Taximes wrote: »
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.


    I kind of figured there was some backroom pressure going on, because the classic Trump tell on if he's actually not going to do a thing is if he drops a word salad of "might, maybe, definitely will's when talking about that thing. I'm sure what's left of his white house staff is saying this would go badly, the DoD is grumbling to the right people about not paying for this boondoggle, and the political move of pulling funds from disaster relief for states has got to be politically DOA.


    Dark_Side on
  • TuminTumin Registered User regular
    I thought only civil case work ceased under a shutdown. Are criminal cases not covered by the Article III anti-deficiency clause?

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Democrats would never pull an emergency act to push funding for a pet project. Like even if Trump did it, that Trump did it would make the idea DOA to any one sane ever.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    wazilla wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    I'm not because he's complaining about us taking the gun out of his hand

    Taking away people's money for weeks or months is still a powerful and damaging move, even if they get paid at the end now.

    Gun is still there, they're just offering medical assistance after the bullets fly, now.

    It is still damaging but a step in the right direction. Having a law on the books would probably help them secure financial assistance during shutdowns though

    Psn:wazukki
    Gnome-InterruptusDracomicron
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    wazilla wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    I'm not because he's complaining about us taking the gun out of his hand

    Taking away people's money for weeks or months is still a powerful and damaging move, even if they get paid at the end now.

    Gun is still there, they're just offering medical assistance after the bullets fly, now.

    It is still damaging but a step in the right direction. Having a law on the books would probably help them secure financial assistance during shutdowns though

    On the other hand it might guarantee they can't get unemployment benefits in the here and now.

    wazillaMoridin889
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    What does the judiciary shutting down mean exactly?



    steam_sig.png
  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    yea but he's a freedom caucus member. trusting a word he's saying is risky.

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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    wazilla wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

    I'm not because he's complaining about us taking the gun out of his hand

    Taking away people's money for weeks or months is still a powerful and damaging move, even if they get paid at the end now.

    Gun is still there, they're just offering medical assistance after the bullets fly, now.

    It is still damaging but a step in the right direction. Having a law on the books would probably help them secure financial assistance during shutdowns though

    On the other hand it might guarantee they can't get unemployment benefits in the here and now.

    I had not considered that, but I believe the states could handle this by asking for reimbursement when the check came

    Psn:wazukki
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    It should not be possible to shut down the government. The two options would be to immediately hold elections, which is not really feesable in our system and for our size, or make it so a "shut down" doesn't actually mean anything.

    Or if it is "shut down" have everything already appropriated keep getting funded as normal. So all a shut down should do is stop new stuff from going into effect not throwing people out of their homes or depriving poor people of food.

    Doodmann
  • Carson VendettaCarson Vendetta Registered User regular
    The bill to protect government workers from shut downs should be the one that says that "in the event the legislature can not pass a budget the previous budget's spending levels are maintained".

    so that the United States doesn't have to put up with the conservatives deciding that they're happy to see the republic crumble

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  • A Kobold's KoboldA Kobold's Kobold He/Him MississippiRegistered User regular
    Taximes wrote: »
    From the previous thread, the Freedom Caucus is urging Trump to avoid the Emergency Powers route, probably because they're all imagining a world where a Democrat does the same thing.
    Politico wrote:
    Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

    Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.


    Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

    I mean, we can make it so that Government Shutdowns don't happen and this sort of hostage-taking showmanship can't be attempted again

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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Ok my initial reading of the Amash quote was wrong and I thought he was implying they would be paid during the shutdown not only after it ended

    Psn:wazukki
    Xaquin
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