US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Guys, if you want to disagree and explain why someone else is wrong, do it without first saying the other person is stupid or blind or a jerk.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    The obvious answer though is to break the GOP here and then end the current appropriations process

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Then nobody is hurting financially, and no additional money is paid to senators as a group. I think everyone can be happy with that.

    Not paying Members of Congress likely won't impact the possibility of a shutdown, or if it does will only harm Members who are not independently wealthy, but we should still do it in order to lower the likelihood of a shutdown that this won't impact?

    I'd rather have them pass amendments to the Antideficiency Act than feigned solidarity.

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    [
    Halting their pay would further enshrine government as a past time for the wealthy

    Government is already the pastime of the wealthy. We pay them thus that if they aren't wealthy when they get there they are decidedly wealthy shortly after. Like that's the reason they make $174,000 their first year.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    $174k a year is unlikely to be more than enough to make them more than middle class even if they are in Congress for a good period of time.

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    [
    Halting their pay would further enshrine government as a past time for the wealthy

    Government is already the pastime of the wealthy. We pay them thus that if they aren't wealthy when they get there they are decidedly wealthy shortly after. Like that's the reason they make $174,000 their first year.

    Outside paying them well is a good idea as it means they can do the job without a secondary income. Look at state houses where people make $30,000 a year and work 6 months. I makes for a lot of messy conflicts of interest.

    Congress's pay isn't really a good lever though. Now the fact flights home are a mess though will be. They tend to have to fly commercial and the TSA issues do effect them. You can see Senators and Representatives at Reagan and Dulles.

    Really the strongest lever will come when the Senators are less scared of Trump than their base. So the more the base hurts, and this hurts a bit. The closer you get to that.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    $174k a year is unlikely to be more than enough to make them more than middle class even if they are in Congress for a good period of time.

    It's literally double my salary and were i not leveraged to shit by student loans id be functionally rich. Like the only way a solo salary of 174k doesn't make you reliably rich is if you're so leveraged you never could have taken the time to campaign.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    [
    Halting their pay would further enshrine government as a past time for the wealthy

    Government is already the pastime of the wealthy. We pay them thus that if they aren't wealthy when they get there they are decidedly wealthy shortly after. Like that's the reason they make $174,000 their first year.

    First Year Associates at a Big Law firm (AmLaw ~50) earn $190k/year

    A kid just past the Bar outearns their Senator.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Sleep wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    $174k a year is unlikely to be more than enough to make them more than middle class even if they are in Congress for a good period of time.

    It's literally double my salary and were i not leveraged to shit by student loans id be functionally rich. Like the only way a solo salary of 174k doesn't make you reliably rich is if you're so leveraged you never could have taken the time to campaign.

    I don't think you have that great an understanding of what rich and wealthy actually mean, and how much money some people have.

    Mitch McConnell has a net worth of $27m.

    He earns $193.4k from his Senate pay.

    He literally could not care less about his pay.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    dont they have to spend a bunch of their own money in real terms on their staff

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    [
    Halting their pay would further enshrine government as a past time for the wealthy

    Government is already the pastime of the wealthy. We pay them thus that if they aren't wealthy when they get there they are decidedly wealthy shortly after. Like that's the reason they make $174,000 their first year.

    First Year Associates at a Big Law firm (AmLaw ~50) earn $190k/year

    A kid just past the Bar outearns their Senator.

    Which is hilarious, but doesn't change that a 174k salary makes you fairly wealthy unless you're so leveraged you need to burn like 3 quarters of it to debt. That other's are more wealthy doesn't make you not wealthy.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Which is hilarious, but doesn't change that a 174k salary makes you fairly wealthy unless you're so leveraged you need to burn like 3 quarters of it to debt. That other's are more wealthy doesn't make you not wealthy.

    However at that level of pay you will still be vulnerable to a shutdown if you do not have other finances.

    PLA
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    $174k a year is unlikely to be more than enough to make them more than middle class even if they are in Congress for a good period of time.

    It's literally double my salary and were i not leveraged to shit by student loans id be functionally rich. Like the only way a solo salary of 174k doesn't make you reliably rich is if you're so leveraged you never could have taken the time to campaign.

    As AOC herself has pointed out, she has to pay for two households with that salary (one in her district in NYC, one in DC), not to mention the professional costs of the job like clothing, maintenance of one's appearance, etc.

    A Member of Congress is a high level professional, and is paid as such - for what the job entails, $174k is right around "market price". And yes, that makes them "upper class", but not outlandishly so.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    dont they have to spend a bunch of their own money in real terms on their staff

    Members of Congress are granted a set allotment for personnel and office furniture/computers &c. for both the District and DC office. Anything over they pay out of pocket. It looks like it was ~$1.25m for 115th Congress for the House. The Senate is complicated because it takes population into account.

    Depending on where they live the biggest thing they pay out of pocket for is housing and travel. The Rep from Arlington isn't impacted by airport closures.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    The only ones of them that cares about their Senator are people like AOC and, ironically, Donald Trump.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    They are afforded an office but not a place to sleep. Just like you dont pay for your office when you work at any company.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    I think the general gist of "Congress shouldn't get paid during a shutdown" isn't "Man, being a congress person is so easy" or "Them Rich Bastards" or whatnot.

    Its the fact that, ostensibly, they are effectively immune from the financial costs of a shutdown unlike other federal workers and thus for many it triggers a sense of unfairness that they have the power to essentially cause their fellow government workers to go without pay without having to shoulder that burden themselves.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Congressmembers make a bit more than, like, an upper tier store manager at Target after bonuses. They also make less than my current household income, which in fairness is a dual income household. It’s a decent salary to be sure, but for the 500 people who hold substantial power in government it’s pretty low.

    Further, this idea that they shouldn’t be paid in a shutdown sounds a lot to me like the liberal version of “Trump is hurting the wrong people.” Only it doesn’t even make sense given our value system, which is that people should be paid for work and that shutdowns shouldn’t be a thing anyway.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Lanz wrote: »
    I think the general gist of "Congress shouldn't get paid during a shutdown" isn't "Man, being a congress person is so easy" or "Them Rich Bastards" or whatnot.

    Its the fact that, ostensibly, they are effectively immune from the financial costs of a shutdown unlike other federal workers and thus for many it triggers a sense of unfairness that they have the power to essentially cause their fellow government workers to go without pay without having to shoulder that burden themselves.

    The key point being missed by most who are expressing the unfairness is that most of them (but not all) are immune from the financial costs of a shutdown whether they are being paid or not.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    There's like four members of Congress who would be financially affected by not paying them.

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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    .... to be perfectly honest part of mine is a little bit "them rich bastards." not all of it! but part of it, certainly.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    There's like four members of Congress who would be financially affected by not paying them.

    We want that number to go up, not down.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    This isn't really on topic.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Congressmembers make a bit more than, like, an upper tier store manager at Target after bonuses. They also make less than my current household income, which in fairness is a dual income household. It’s a decent salary to be sure, but for the 500 people who hold substantial power in government it’s pretty low.

    Further, this idea that they shouldn’t be paid in a shutdown sounds a lot to me like the liberal version of “Trump is hurting the wrong people.” Only it doesn’t even make sense given our value system, which is that people should be paid for work and that shutdowns shouldn’t be a thing anyway.

    I think you could make the argument that, as long as Shutdowns are allowed to be a thing that Congressional pay for Reps and Senators should be the same as that of other Essential personnel: show up to work and when the shutdown ends you get your backpay.

    That said, as Dhalphir and others noted, that doesn't take into account the issue of independent wealth for an important number of Congresscritters, which breaks down any sense of solidarity with their fellow federal workers and still shields them from the pressure that losing their federal paycheck would induce to end a shutdown.

    EDIT: Sorry SiG

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Is this on-topic? Laura Loomer trespassed onto Nancy Pelosi's property by jumping the fence (this is about to become relevant, wait for it) to do a sort of protest / advocacy moment for having a border wall. She bypassed a wall to promote the need of walls like the stupid border thing. Also she tried to open the doors around the house itself, finding none that were unlocked, but shouldn't that be some sort of attempted home invasion crime? Because she's being let off with a warning only.

    I dunno why this article says "allegedly" because Loomer wasn't shy about having the damn thing filmed / photographed.
    https://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-nancy-pelosi-house-1291083

    Edit - Also she failed to provide ID to the police when asked. Also she had two guys with her that she claimed were illegal immigrants, but there wasn't anyway to confirm that since they weren't handing over ID as well. One of the cops remarked that if it were true, she was about to get them into a world of fucking trouble and they don't deserve it.

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  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Henroid wrote: »
    Is this on-topic? Laura Loomer trespassed onto Nancy Pelosi's property by jumping the fence (this is about to become relevant, wait for it) to do a sort of protest / advocacy moment for having a border wall. She bypassed a wall to promote the need of walls like the stupid border thing. Also she tried to open the doors around the house itself, finding none that were unlocked, but shouldn't that be some sort of attempted home invasion crime? Because she's being let off with a warning only.

    I dunno why this article says "allegedly" because Loomer wasn't shy about having the damn thing filmed / photographed.
    https://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-nancy-pelosi-house-1291083

    I’m going to jump over your wall and trespass to prove to you we need a wall to stop people trespassing.

    Delicious.

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  • President RexPresident Rex Registered User regular
    In relation to discussions from a few days ago, the senate and house have both passed the Government Employee Fair Treatment Act, which guarantees furloughed employees pay and lets excepted/essential employees take leave (before they basically couldn't and would have an awkward furlough situation).

    As for the judiciary, it's supposed focus on constitutional issues and will still address civil and criminal cases. Reuters has an article.https://reuters.com/article/us-usa-fiscal-courts/u-s-federal-courts-to-remain-open-if-government-shuts-down-idUSBRE98T1AB20130930. Available money runs out on the 18th, so they're marginally better off than other departments that have already furloughed a bunch of people.

    For those interested, Mueller's investigation is financed by appropriations that are unaffected by the shutdown.

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    If the government can't pass a budget, every elected official in Congress is instantly up for election

    You would have to change campaign finance laws, I think, because it would definitely be abused,

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Careful Mr President, your projection is showing.



    In case you can’t stand his voice, relevant quote:
    We have a very big crisis, a humanitarian crisis on the border. Everybody knows it, [congressional Democrats] know it. And many of them are saying, 'We agree with you.' Many of them are calling and many of them are breaking. The Republicans are rock-solid.

    Yeah, suuuuuure it’s the Dems that are breaking and telling cameras how “rock-solid” they are.

    He’s gonna fold like a cheap lawn chair.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Per Quinnipac polling:



    About what I expected really

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Haven't heard enough was 3%?!

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Athenor wrote: »
    Haven't heard enough was 3%?!

    You could get three percent of a poll to read out yes on if the respondent would like to fornicate with a school of piranhas

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  • JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Is this on-topic? Laura Loomer trespassed onto Nancy Pelosi's property by jumping the fence (this is about to become relevant, wait for it) to do a sort of protest / advocacy moment for having a border wall. She bypassed a wall to promote the need of walls like the stupid border thing. Also she tried to open the doors around the house itself, finding none that were unlocked, but shouldn't that be some sort of attempted home invasion crime? Because she's being let off with a warning only.

    I dunno why this article says "allegedly" because Loomer wasn't shy about having the damn thing filmed / photographed.
    https://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-nancy-pelosi-house-1291083

    Edit - Also she failed to provide ID to the police when asked. Also she had two guys with her that she claimed were illegal immigrants, but there wasn't anyway to confirm that since they weren't handing over ID as well. One of the cops remarked that if it were true, she was about to get them into a world of fucking trouble and they don't deserve it.

    I don't really know who Laura Loomer is or why she's relevant but

    *chefs kiss*

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Haven't heard enough was 3%?!

    You could get three percent of a poll to read out yes on if the respondent would like to fornicate with a school of piranhas

    ...

    Are they hot?

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Per Quinnipac polling:



    About what I expected really
    Was that "Changed mind in favor of" or "changed mind against" or unclear? Because there have to be people who heard his bullshit and thought, "Nope, this was a bad idea."

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Per Quinnipac polling:



    About what I expected really
    Was that "Changed mind in favor of" or "changed mind against" or unclear? Because there have to be people who heard his bullshit and thought, "Nope, this was a bad idea."

    Its unspecified but given the total share is 3% I don't think there's much to go on either way.

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  • TNTrooperTNTrooper Registered User regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Is this on-topic? Laura Loomer trespassed onto Nancy Pelosi's property by jumping the fence (this is about to become relevant, wait for it) to do a sort of protest / advocacy moment for having a border wall. She bypassed a wall to promote the need of walls like the stupid border thing. Also she tried to open the doors around the house itself, finding none that were unlocked, but shouldn't that be some sort of attempted home invasion crime? Because she's being let off with a warning only.

    I dunno why this article says "allegedly" because Loomer wasn't shy about having the damn thing filmed / photographed.
    https://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-nancy-pelosi-house-1291083

    Edit - Also she failed to provide ID to the police when asked. Also she had two guys with her that she claimed were illegal immigrants, but there wasn't anyway to confirm that since they weren't handing over ID as well. One of the cops remarked that if it were true, she was about to get them into a world of fucking trouble and they don't deserve it.

    I don't really know who Laura Loomer is or why she's relevant but

    *chefs kiss*

    Right wing loon. Her last publicity stunt was handcuffing herself to Twitter's front door to get unbanned. It didn't work cause their front door was a double door so people could still walk in and out.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Because of the furlough and the lack if workwrs at the WH, trump paid for Clemson to have food from Wendy's McDonald's BK, and domino's .

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    TNTrooper wrote: »
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Is this on-topic? Laura Loomer trespassed onto Nancy Pelosi's property by jumping the fence (this is about to become relevant, wait for it) to do a sort of protest / advocacy moment for having a border wall. She bypassed a wall to promote the need of walls like the stupid border thing. Also she tried to open the doors around the house itself, finding none that were unlocked, but shouldn't that be some sort of attempted home invasion crime? Because she's being let off with a warning only.

    I dunno why this article says "allegedly" because Loomer wasn't shy about having the damn thing filmed / photographed.
    https://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-nancy-pelosi-house-1291083

    Edit - Also she failed to provide ID to the police when asked. Also she had two guys with her that she claimed were illegal immigrants, but there wasn't anyway to confirm that since they weren't handing over ID as well. One of the cops remarked that if it were true, she was about to get them into a world of fucking trouble and they don't deserve it.

    I don't really know who Laura Loomer is or why she's relevant but

    *chefs kiss*

    Right wing loon. Her last publicity stunt was handcuffing herself to Twitter's front door to get unbanned. It didn't work cause their front door was a double door so people could still walk in and out.

    Are we sure it's not just performance art?

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    Because of the furlough and the lack if workwrs at the WH, trump paid for Clemson to have food from Wendy's McDonald's BK, and domino's .
    I've been DYING to bring that up somewhere on this forum but can you confirm it's because of the furlough? Because this stupid fuck would do that even if the government were operational.

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