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US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

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Posts

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    McConnell really is the problem here, again.

    If he lets a vote happen, Trump has to act one way or the other, and collapse the waveform of blame. McConnell is the key here, once he's moved the rest can shake itself out like government is supposed to function.


    Your Senator is the proper place to put pressure right now, if you're wondering how to do something.

    Both my senators are dems so....

    monikerElvenshaeMazzyxDracomicronRickRudeElJeffeemp123
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    McConnell really is the problem here, again.

    If he lets a vote happen, Trump has to act one way or the other, and collapse the waveform of blame. McConnell is the key here, once he's moved the rest can shake itself out like government is supposed to function.


    Your Senator is the proper place to put pressure right now, if you're wondering how to do something.

    Both my senators are dems so....

    Tell them you care anyway. They don't automatically know how public support is going.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    McConnell really is the problem here, again.

    If he lets a vote happen, Trump has to act one way or the other, and collapse the waveform of blame. McConnell is the key here, once he's moved the rest can shake itself out like government is supposed to function.


    Your Senator is the proper place to put pressure right now, if you're wondering how to do something.

    Both my senators are dems so....

    Tell them you care anyway. They don't automatically know how public support is going.

    Yeah, Dem Senators matter just as much. Stiffen their spines with yelling otherwise they might go soft reading all the DC insider bullshit op-eds.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited January 12
    Republican lawmakers and aides worry that Mr. Trump has misunderstood Democrats’ incentives to stand firm and that he has deputized the wrong aides to press his case. And they question who — if anyone other than the president — has the authority to resolve the impasse.

    THAT'S YOU! THAT'S YOU YOU FUCKING DUMBASSES! YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY!! YOU'RE THE CHECK ON THE EXECUTIVE!!! YOU SPENT 8 YEARS BEING OBSTINATE TWITS AGAINST OBAMA, DO NOT TELL ME YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!!!

    Undead Scottsman on
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  • CogCog Registered User regular
    The fact that we have informally kinda scribbled the veto-override out of the constitution in the case of the president and at least one house of congress being party aligned is a real fucking problem.

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  • FawstFawst The road to awe.Registered User regular
    I truly don’t know enough about our system of government (just enough to be dangerous, so to speak), but ... is it Mitch’s job—his actual, “I was elected to do X” job—to only bring votes up for bills that the president will absolutely sign? It’s not, is it?

    Why the FUCK isn’t there a never-ending dialogue about how this is all on Mitch not bringing up the vote that already passed? Fuck, why isn’t that vote already just accepted as having passed?? Argh, I am so fucking furious that Putin is pulling our country apart so easily by injecting this fucking worm into the Oval Office. I’m equally frustrated to find out just how barely held together out government really is, when all it takes to destroy it is a pair of jack holes in the right positions saying “let’s shut this down, eh?”

    Tube wrote:
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    I truly don’t know enough about our system of government (just enough to be dangerous, so to speak), but ... is it Mitch’s job—his actual, “I was elected to do X” job—to only bring votes up for bills that the president will absolutely sign? It’s not, is it?

    Why the FUCK isn’t there a never-ending dialogue about how this is all on Mitch not bringing up the vote that already passed? Fuck, why isn’t that vote already just accepted as having passed?? Argh, I am so fucking furious that Putin is pulling our country apart so easily by injecting this fucking worm into the Oval Office. I’m equally frustrated to find out just how barely held together out government really is, when all it takes to destroy it is a pair of jack holes in the right positions saying “let’s shut this down, eh?”

    McConnell’s job is to serve the American people.

    Instead, he is serving his party and himself.

    It really is that simple.

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    青!
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    I truly don’t know enough about our system of government (just enough to be dangerous, so to speak), but ... is it Mitch’s job—his actual, “I was elected to do X” job—to only bring votes up for bills that the president will absolutely sign? It’s not, is it?

    Why the FUCK isn’t there a never-ending dialogue about how this is all on Mitch not bringing up the vote that already passed? Fuck, why isn’t that vote already just accepted as having passed?? Argh, I am so fucking furious that Putin is pulling our country apart so easily by injecting this fucking worm into the Oval Office. I’m equally frustrated to find out just how barely held together out government really is, when all it takes to destroy it is a pair of jack holes in the right positions saying “let’s shut this down, eh?”

    McConnell’s job is to serve the American people.

    Instead, he is serving his party and himself.

    It really is that simple.

    As Senate majority leader, he is also supposed to serve the interests of the Republican senators. He isn't doing a great job at that either.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited January 12
    It wasn't until this presidency that I learned the Senate Majority Leader was able to unilaterally decide if things get voted on at all or not. That amount of power is fucking stunning.

    Henroid on
    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 12
    Henroid wrote: »
    It wasn't until this presidency that I learned the Senate Majority Leader was able to unilaterally decide if things get voted on at all or not. That amount of power is fucking stunning.

    It's less explicit than that. Whoever is presiding over the Senate sets the agenda, per the Senate rules.

    Pence could roll up and take over (VP constitutionally is president of the Senate). Absent that, it falls to ePresident Pro Tempore. Or majority leader, as is more often the case

    e: so yes, either of Pence or Grassley could overrule McConnell and say "no we're voting on this" but neither will.

    Tox on
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  • RozRoz Boss of InternetRegistered User regular
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    It wasn't until this presidency that I learned the Senate Majority Leader was able to unilaterally decide if things get voted on at all or not. That amount of power is fucking stunning.

    It isnt that unilateral and Mitch is doing exactly what the other Rep senators want him to.

    At any point 51 people can vote for leadership positions and toss mitch out. But no republican wants to be the one that crosses the line and votes for schumer because that would end their political career.

    Such they hide behind mitch. They get to say both that they are against the shutdown and also not break ranks and alienate the base and also lets them attack someone who isnt Trump. “If only mitch would let us vote” they say weakly while giving him the thumbs up behind their back.

    Its the same kind of thing that goes on in whip counts. “We need x votes but the thing is kind of unpopular we have to decide who gets to vote no and look like theyre taking a principled stand while making sure the thing still passes.”

    wbBv3fj.png
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  • CogCog Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    It wasn't until this presidency that I learned the Senate Majority Leader was able to unilaterally decide if things get voted on at all or not. That amount of power is fucking stunning.

    It isnt that unilateral and Mitch is doing exactly what the other Rep senators want him to.

    Given the CR previously passed 100-0 this is highly fucking debatable.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    It wasn't until this presidency that I learned the Senate Majority Leader was able to unilaterally decide if things get voted on at all or not. That amount of power is fucking stunning.

    It isnt that unilateral and Mitch is doing exactly what the other Rep senators want him to.

    Given the CR previously passed 100-0 this is highly fucking debatable.

    It was passed with unanimous consent when the President said he supported it at the time. After his most recent renege literally in between that vote and the House vote it changed their incentives.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Cog wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    It wasn't until this presidency that I learned the Senate Majority Leader was able to unilaterally decide if things get voted on at all or not. That amount of power is fucking stunning.

    It isnt that unilateral and Mitch is doing exactly what the other Rep senators want him to.

    Given the CR previously passed 100-0 this is highly fucking debatable.

    It was passed with unanimous consent when the President said he supported it at the time. After his most recent renege literally in between that vote and the House vote it changed their incentives.

    Yup. Their priorities are:
    1) Getting reelected
    2) having a functioning government
    in that order.

    When Trump was gonna sign the CR, they voted for it because 2. Once he came out against it, they won't because 1.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    The fact that we have informally kinda scribbled the veto-override out of the constitution in the case of the president and at least one house of congress being party aligned is a real fucking problem.

    As always, the electorate is the ultimate problem here. Hence my "look left, look right, one of those people 100% supports this" from two pages ago. The outsize power some geographic areas have in the Senate is another matter, but even in Seattle I've noticed an uptick in open Trump support over the last couple years. Mitch does what he does because the voters...both his own and the voters for every Republican Senator who is not overriding him as we speak...support this. This strategy has enough popular support that he can do this, if that support gets low enough it no longer works.

    That even more "balanced" news outlets like the AP have normalized this strategy doesn't help.

    Everything the Senate does or does not do is with the consent of the electorate. The President has not been removed because there is insufficient popular support or sufficient popular opposition for that action. The government is shut down for the exact same reason.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    I feel like any Republican, even Murkowski, who participated in a coup with the Democrats to remove the current Republican Leadership in the Senate and bypass the President would never get relected again.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited January 12
    There are elements of the Republican financial backers, like the Libertarian billionaires, who would like to see a government shutdown go on for as long as possible. They would see it as a chance to prove that their ideology is correct, since if it is shutting down the government should result in a new golden age of freedom and prosperity.

    Jephery on
    }
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  • PellaeonPellaeon Registered User regular
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    With great power comes great repsonsibiity, and no one else wants the responsibility, so they'll settle for moderate power and avoiding the blame.

    ElvenshaeTicaldfjam
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Pellaeon wrote: »
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    With great power comes great repsonsibiity, and no one else wants the responsibility, so they'll settle for moderate power and avoiding the blame.

    What power? The Dems are blocking their ability to do anything substantial until this shit is sorted.

    discrider
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Pellaeon wrote: »
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    With great power comes great repsonsibiity, and no one else wants the responsibility, so they'll settle for moderate power and avoiding the blame.

    What power? The Dems are blocking their ability to do anything substantial until this shit is sorted.

    you forgot the /s tag there

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    I feel like any Republican, even Murkowski, who participated in a coup with the Democrats to remove the current Republican Leadership in the Senate and bypass the President would never get relected again.

    If they can find a retiring senator who doesn’t need to be afraid of Trump then they could go for it.

    Elvenshae
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Every Republican agrees with all the shit he's doing, at their core.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited January 12
    Marathon wrote: »
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    I feel like any Republican, even Murkowski, who participated in a coup with the Democrats to remove the current Republican Leadership in the Senate and bypass the President would never get relected again.

    If they can find a retiring senator who doesn’t need to be afraid of Trump then they could go for it.

    The 11 just seated don't need to be afraid of him, neither, really, do the 22 seated two years ago.

    The party only works because libertarians agree to back the shitty ideas of social conservatives and vice versa. They [wisely?] fear breaking ranks, period.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Every Republican agrees with all the shit he's doing, at their core.

    Republicans didn't oppose Trump because they didn't like his policies, they opposed him because they didn't think he would win against Clinton.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Every Republican agrees with all the shit he's doing, at their core.

    Republicans didn't oppose Trump because they didn't like his policies, they opposed him because they didn't think he would win against Clinton.

    He's not so different from most of the Republicans, he just has bad manners

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  • PellaeonPellaeon Registered User regular
    Pellaeon wrote: »
    Roz wrote: »
    Spool has it 100% correct. The problem is Mitch McConnell. It's always been Mitch McConnell. The goal right now should be to lean on the 7 vulnerable Senators to start supporting a new Senator Majority Leader who will bring this to the floor. It takes only four R Senators to vote with every Democrat to put Murkowski or Gardner or someone else in control.

    With great power comes great repsonsibiity, and no one else wants the responsibility, so they'll settle for moderate power and avoiding the blame.

    What power? The Dems are blocking their ability to do anything substantial until this shit is sorted.

    Was specifically talking about taking Senate majority leader, and why no one else wants it. Much like Ryan as house speaker, much easier to claim you would do something than be responsible for making it happen.

    moniker
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    Republican lawmakers and aides worry that Mr. Trump has misunderstood Democrats’ incentives to stand firm and that he has deputized the wrong aides to press his case. And they question who — if anyone other than the president — has the authority to resolve the impasse.

    THAT'S YOU! THAT'S YOU YOU FUCKING DUMBASSES! YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY!! YOU'RE THE CHECK ON THE EXECUTIVE!!! YOU SPENT 8 YEARS BEING OBSTINATE TWITS AGAINST OBAMA, DO NOT TELL ME YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!!!

    I think I've said this before somewhere here, but I don't think the Republican Party actually understands or believes that anymore.

    Constitutionally? Yeah, sure, Congress is an equal branch (Legislative) that serves as a check on the Executive and the Judiciary.

    But their party dynamic is a lot stronger in their professional lives than their roles as lawmakers. And under the current set up, Donald Trump is effectively head of the Republican Party.

    And the Republican Party is, at its core, an authoritarian hierarchical organization. You may get rumblings, and at the start of this whole nightmare there was probably talk about how they'd make Trump work for the party, etc. etc.

    But in the end: He's the top of their hierarchy, and even if they could get past that they're scared stupid of him directing the base against defectors and detractors within the party.

    So they fall in line, because they're believers or scared of reprisal from a man whose mantra has for years been how much he loves reprisals

    Lanz on
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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    Honestly, our Constitution needs the be rewritten. And all the racists and bigots need to be exiled.

    That’s the only thing that’s going to fix this country.

    - Thoughts of a “recalcitrant leftist”

    Drez on
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  • zipidideezipididee Registered User regular
    Since I don't want to necro the "disrespects the military threat", but I'm so mad about this whole thing. I have a handful of Coast Guard folks working for me at a joint base. So far they're being awesome, have some cash set aside so they're not freaking out yet, but that won't last.

    *ching ching* Just my two cents
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I don’t understand how anyone thought that public opinion would swing towards Trump after his speech. Especially since he just repeated the same things he had already been saying when public support had been turning against him.

    Because the script says the hero wins. How that comes about surely doesn't matter. It will all just work out with winner-genes.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    I don’t understand how anyone thought that public opinion would swing towards Trump after his speech. Especially since he just repeated the same things he had already been saying when public support had been turning against him.

    Because the script says the hero wins. How that comes about surely doesn't matter. It will all just work out with winner-genes.

    I don't think Trump has ever spoken in front of an audience that openly dislikes him. (Aside from the occasional protester). As far as he's aware, people go apeshit when he speaks.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    I don’t understand how anyone thought that public opinion would swing towards Trump after his speech. Especially since he just repeated the same things he had already been saying when public support had been turning against him.

    Because the script says the hero wins. How that comes about surely doesn't matter. It will all just work out with winner-genes.

    Their script says the winner is the hero. Slight difference. It's a variant on the prosperity gospel.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    What happens if mitch doesn't do his job and Trump doesnt budge? Do we let this drag on or at some point do democrats have to be the adults in the room just so the country can function ? I want to say no we cannot let the country trand government be used as a hostage and negotiation tactic. But at the same time, canthis really be allowed to drag on?

  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    What happens if mitch doesn't do his job and Trump doesnt budge? Do we let this drag on or at some point do democrats have to be the adults in the room just so the country can function ? I want to say no we cannot let the country trand government be used as a hostage and negotiation tactic. But at the same time, canthis really be allowed to drag on?

    The people being hurt will be hurt more if the GOP can just shut down the government over any toddler temper tantrum

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    I don’t understand how anyone thought that public opinion would swing towards Trump after his speech. Especially since he just repeated the same things he had already been saying when public support had been turning against him.

    Because the script says the hero wins. How that comes about surely doesn't matter. It will all just work out with winner-genes.

    Their script says the winner is the hero. Slight difference. It's a variant on the prosperity gospel.

    No, no, they assumed that public opinion would be on their side before the fact, even though the plan was to throw some estranging idiot in front of the cameras to make croaking noises.

  • HiroconHirocon Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    What happens if mitch doesn't do his job and Trump doesnt budge? Do we let this drag on or at some point do democrats have to be the adults in the room just so the country can function ? I want to say no we cannot let the country trand government be used as a hostage and negotiation tactic. But at the same time, canthis really be allowed to drag on?

    We keep the government shut down until Trump is out of office, however that comes about, even if it takes six years.

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  • A Kobold's KoboldA Kobold's Kobold He/Him MississippiRegistered User regular
    I thin shit is going to hit the fan once the planes stop flying. Because once the planes stop flying, most Senators go on red fucking alert because they need to fly back and forth from their states for their jobs. Once the government shutdown starts hitting where it hurts, the Senate is going to be a lot more motivated to re-open the government.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    There is no way the country can survive having the government be shut down for 6 years, like 6 months would be pushing it

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    A shutdown ended by concession will start right back up again the next time Donald doesn't get his Happy Meal. It will drag on for the rest of his term.

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