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US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

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Posts

  • DisrupterDisrupter regular Registered User regular
    So see you all in 3 weeks?

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  • NotYouNotYou regular Registered User regular
    If Trump opts to try the shutdown again in 3 weeks, he will look extraordinarily pathetic. I wonder how he'll handle this coming month.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt regular Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Pelosi should tell Trump no to a SOTU because of his stupid fucking threat of another shutdown.

    Nope nope nope.

    The deal was no SOTU until the government opens. If the government opens, then he should get to do his SOTU, because that is how deal making works among grown ups with principles.

    It's only 3 weeks, but this is a huge win. Trump shut down the government, he got absolutely nothing he wanted, the dems had impeccable message control, and Trump reopened the government.

    He got fucking nothing from this but shitty polls and horrible narrative.

    The dems held fast, and they - particularly Pelosi - deserve an ungodly amount of accolades for this.

    And honestly, Trump trying to cram through his vanity speech in that small window given the last couple of months isn't exactly going to be doing him any favors in the optics department.

    (Especially since he tried to give it today.)

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  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday
    Voted no on what, the CR or wall funding?

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday
    Voted no on what, the CR or wall funding?

    no to the clean CR, she voted yes for the gop wall funding one

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    "Lemmings is my favorite video game!"

    Like seriously, these people do not do anything without Trump's directive. They're a hive mind.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman regular Registered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So see you all in 3 weeks?

    Hopefully trump goes dark and stews. Basically give us a 3 week vacation from his bullshit.

    Hirocon
  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    So I wonder what fucked the GOP more. Trump and his minions going the full Antoinette, or McConnell doing a stage vote that the general public did not understand and only pissed people off more?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • MorganVMorganV regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    That's the reason why it's going to be a voice vote. Because Senators don't want to be asked "Why were you against it yesterday, but for it today? Are you just a puppet of the President?".

    And there's no way that Trump can close down the government in 3 weeks without immediately being blamed. It's as simple as that. As long as Democrats stick to the message of "clean CR, open government is needed for any other negotiation", and don't try to put in any of their own policy, he's fucked.

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  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

  • XaquinXaquin regular Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    So I wonder what fucked the GOP more. Trump and his minions going the full Antoinette, or McConnell doing a stage vote that the general public did not understand and only pissed people off more?

    It was probably the loss of food stamps and tax returns honestly

    JaysonFour
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    So I wonder what fucked the GOP more. Trump and his minions going the full Antoinette, or McConnell doing a stage vote that the general public did not understand and only pissed people off more?

    a strike was starting to happen today too

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  • PreacherPreacher regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    Isn't that what you call whoever is running the senate during a session? Either that or he really just shit on trump and referred to Pelosi who's really in charge.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • see317see317 regular Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Pelosi should tell Trump no to a SOTU because of his stupid fucking threat of another shutdown.

    Nope nope nope.

    The deal was no SOTU until the government opens. If the government opens, then he should get to do his SOTU, because that is how deal making works among grown ups with principles.

    It's only 3 weeks, but this is a huge win. Trump shut down the government, he got absolutely nothing he wanted, the dems had impeccable message control, and Trump reopened the government.

    He got fucking nothing from this but shitty polls and horrible narrative.

    The dems held fast, and they - particularly Pelosi - deserve an ungodly amount of accolades for this.
    I'm a bit torn I suppose. Like calm rational me says this is all good as you've laid it out, but I'm pretty vengeful in my thinking and Trump already threatening another shutdown is infuriating. I guess it's better to cross that bridge when we get there. I don't like that it's in sight already.

    Yeah, part of me would love to see the response of "Your threat to close down the government again in three weeks is a pretty clear indication of The State of The Union, I don't think we'll need another. Your obligation on that front should be considered fulfilled.".

    But the rest of me knows that showing Trump how a responsible adult politician makes and keeps their word is probably more important than a cheap burn.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • AimAim regular Registered User regular
    The air travel issues may have been the remaining drop.
    For a party whose base believes government is largely useless, visible evidence to the contrary is problematic.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    Pelosi. It's the alt-right meme du jour now for that cuck Donald Trump ceding to a woman.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler regular Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    Isn't that what you call whoever is running the senate during a session? Either that or he really just shit on trump and referred to Pelosi who's really in charge.

    Maybe referring to Grassley the president pro tempore?

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    President of the Senate. Congressional etiquette is that you do not actually talk to the person you are addressing, but address your remarks to the chair

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum regular Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    Isn't that what you call whoever is running the senate during a session? Either that or he really just shit on trump and referred to Pelosi who's really in charge.

    Yes, Presumably a woman is the presiding officer today.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    Who ever is the current temporary president of the Senate. When the VP is not there this position kind of gets rotated through Senators. Last time I went to the chambers it was Susan Collins while others were in committee meetings.

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  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes regular Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    cursedking wrote: »
    I absolutely do not understand why democratic senators do not bring up, over and over, that they can overturn a veto with enough votes.

    Bernie Sanders is currently railing on Trump about what has gone on, and how he's threatening to shut down the government closed again.

    But Trump can't do that! He can veto the bill and then the GOP could vote overwhelmingly to overturn that veto. That absolutely has to be part of the conversation and be loud. They're not powerless.

    Trump's popularity is crashing. He can't do anything to them for it.

    I too think this is the perfect time to pass an actual bill to lay Trump out as I said in a previous post; but practically a CR is needed immediately.

    The CR they'll pass is one that is already written (presumably one of the ones already passed by the House) and can get the government open and people paid immediately.

    Afterward, if they could pull their heads out of their asses, they could push for an actual bill, and I think you'd find that they could negotiate more on partisan spending wants/concerns if they took their concern of Trump off the table (which they should!). It would, in any other time, be viewed as an incredibly questionable bill, for both sides, as I'm sure money would be spent where Dems don't want and vice versa for Republicans.

    But they'd show competence and strength against the White House and be the functional "finishing move" to completely remove Trump from the legislative picture. Both parties could do it without weakening their positions on presidential power even! Because it would be abundantly clear it wasn't a move to limit the executive; but to limit Trump specifically without actually doing anything to single him out on paper.

    Bonus points if they could put it on his desk prior to the new "deadline".

    So, in summary, this is how I'd do it, if this were a game where I was in control :lol:

    1) Pass the CR. Maybe tack in a bit that isn't outright denying Trump the ability to use emergency powers for wall funding, but would provide enough indirect means for congress to have additional authority to halt it. Or not, maybe just pass it.
    2) Open the government, get people paid and back to work.
    3) Get copious amounts of public support from every side but the far right. That's fine.
    4) Whip the living fuck out of enough Republicans to override a veto. This really shouldn't be hard, they can read the polling data as well as anyone else
    5) Pass a bipartisan (and likely far from ideal, but the act is more important than the details; they've been passing compromised CR's and budgets for years now, this doesn't have to be different, it just needs to happen) that denies Trump wall funding, but giving money to border security (like the Dems CR; again, focus on the bigger picture and not the unpalatable parts) to point to when Trump tries to throw a hissy fit.
    6a) Trump signs it: Celebrate a massive boost in public opinion about the functioning of Congress, nosedive in support for Trump and the bonus of having on record distance from trump for Republicans who are in more risky seats and will need cover in an impeachment trial
    6b) Trump vetos it: Override it and get an even bigger boost in public opinion, further restoring hope and faith in the system and making Trump look even more incompetent and ineffectual because the further they can get from him for, at the very least 2020, but likely ongoing investigations, the higher chance Republicans have of keeping their seats (They've got 22 seats up in 2020, it is their election to lose).

    Keep in mind I'm not supporting Republicans staying in power.

    However I am supporting the idea of a return to sanity even if it means providing Republicans a means to keep seats if it means a functional government and provides an out for anyone who really wasn't a Trumper but were forced into it by the political climate. I'm also not defending those people, because, grow a fucking spine.

    I'm just saying, Congress could turn this win into the the biggest touchdown spike in possibly all of US history; given that the reassurance of the system and visible functioning would do a whole hell of a lot, both domestically and abroad, for perceptions of the US right now and its viability.

    EDIT: McConnell, if you're reading this; you get a win here too. You're still the Senate Majority Leader, you show strength here, that just makes you all that much more powerful and influential. And if nothing else think of the sheer amount of fundraising you could get off this. You get all the money, you keep the power (if you can keep it in 2020, but this would make it easier), and for better or worse, you get public praise from moderates and some liberals for "doing the right thing". And you get to take back the power you've had to cede to Trump in all of this in order to not rile up the base.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

    It is possible in theory for the legislature to overturn a presidential veto, directly or by presidential inaction.

    Unless both chambers are in supermajority by the same party such a thing is extremely unlikely.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

    We don't actually know. They should, but we are in uncharted waters, and here be fucking dragons.

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    Matev
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

    Yes.

  • XaquinXaquin regular Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

    We don't actually know. They should, but we are in uncharted waters, and here be fucking dragons.

    no, they absolutely could

    but they won't because they're republicans

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  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    D Mark Warner says "I don't think we'll ever...fully know what was the straw the broke the camel's back..."

    dude it was the airlines, it took 5 hours of airlines shutting down for trump to back down.

    cursedking on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Oh, I thought the question was about vote counts.

    Yes, they absolutely have the constitutional authority to override veto

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  • RedTideRedTide regular Registered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So see you all in 3 weeks?

    Hopefully trump goes dark and stews. Basically give us a 3 week vacation from his bullshit.

    He's probably half way to Mar a Lago already considering how much golf he missed because of this

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

    Theoretically? Sure, and this is a great rhetorical cudgel since they helpfully passed it right before this shit show which looks horrible to a casual glance.

    I think it is a bit of self delusion to think that votes for something their party nominally supported is the same thing as votes for something the head of their party actively opposes. Yesterday was an example that they don't really have the votes to pass a real clean CR if Trump still opposed it. They certainly wouldn't have the votes to override a veto if that were the case.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    D Mark Warner says "I don't think we'll ever...fully know what was the straw the broke the camel's back..."

    dude it was the airlines, it took 5 hours of airlines shutting down for trump to back down.

    A rich person might have been inconvenienced and suddenly the camel's neck snapped.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    lamar alexander just addressed Madam President who is he....talking to

    Its complicated, but when the Vice President of the US(President of the Senate) isn't sitting in on a session of the Senate, the President Pro Tempore is considered the President of the Senate. Pro Tempore has been given to longest sitting majority member for a while now, but that post is largely ignored. Instead, they let junior members sit the post so that they can get a better feel for how the system is supposed to work.

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  • RhahRhah regular Registered User regular
    jgeis wrote: »
    Trump totally ad libbed the entire thing about human trafficking, literally all of it.

    Jordan Fabian is a correspondent for The Hill.


    I figured he had just seen the first Sicario recently.

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  • cursedkingcursedking regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    I absolutely do not understand why democratic senators do not bring up, over and over, that they can overturn a veto with enough votes.

    Bernie Sanders is currently railing on Trump about what has gone on, and how he's threatening to shut down the government closed again.

    But Trump can't do that! He can veto the bill and then the GOP could vote overwhelmingly to overturn that veto. That absolutely has to be part of the conversation and be loud. They're not powerless.

    Trump's popularity is crashing. He can't do anything to them for it.

    I too think this is the perfect time to pass an actual bill to lay Trump out as I said in a previous post; but practically a CR is needed immediately.

    The CR they'll pass is one that is already written (presumably one of the ones already passed by the House) and can get the government open and people paid immediately.

    Afterward, if they could pull their heads out of their asses, they could push for an actual bill, and I think you'd find that they could negotiate more on partisan spending wants/concerns if they took their concern of Trump off the table (which they should!). It would, in any other time, be viewed as an incredibly questionable bill, for both sides, as I'm sure money would be spent where Dems don't want and vice versa for Republicans.

    But they'd show competence and strength against the White House and be the functional "finishing move" to completely remove Trump from the legislative picture. Both parties could do it without weakening their positions on presidential power even! Because it would be abundantly clear it wasn't a move to limit the executive; but to limit Trump specifically without actually doing anything to single him out on paper.

    Bonus points if they could put it on his desk prior to the new "deadline".

    So, in summary, this is how I'd do it, if this were a game where I was in control :lol:

    1) Pass the CR. Maybe tack in a bit that isn't outright denying Trump the ability to use emergency powers for wall funding, but would provide enough indirect means for congress to have additional authority to halt it. Or not, maybe just pass it.
    2) Open the government, get people paid and back to work.
    3) Get copious amounts of public support from every side but the far right. That's fine.
    4) Whip the living fuck out of enough Republicans to override a veto. This really shouldn't be hard, they can read the polling data as well as anyone else
    5) Pass a bipartisan (and likely far from ideal, but the act is more important than the details; they've been passing compromised CR's and budgets for years now, this doesn't have to be different, it just needs to happen) that denies Trump wall funding, but giving money to border security (like the Dems CR; again, focus on the bigger picture and not the unpalatable parts) to point to when Trump tries to throw a hissy fit.
    6a) Trump signs it: Celebrate a massive boost in public opinion about the functioning of Congress, nosedive in support for Trump and the bonus of having on record distance from trump for Republicans who are in more risky seats and will need cover in an impeachment trial
    6b) Trump vetos it: Override it and get an even bigger boost in public opinion, further restoring hope and faith in the system and making Trump look even more incompetent and ineffectual because the further they can get from him for, at the very least 2020, but likely ongoing investigations, the higher chance Republicans have of keeping their seats (They've got 22 seats up in 2020, it is their election to lose).

    Keep in mind I'm not supporting Republicans staying in power.

    However I am supporting the idea of a return to sanity even if it means providing Republicans a means to keep seats if it means a functional government and provides an out for anyone who really wasn't a Trumper but were forced into it by the political climate. I'm also not defending those people, because, grow a fucking spine.

    I'm just saying, Congress could turn this win into the the biggest touchdown spike in possibly all of US history; given that the reassurance of the system and visible functioning would do a whole hell of a lot, both domestically and abroad, for perceptions of the US right now and its viability.

    EDIT: McConnell, if you're reading this; you get a win here too. You're still the Senate Majority Leader, you show strength here, that just makes you all that much more powerful and influential. And if nothing else think of the sheer amount of fundraising you could get off this. You get all the money, you keep the power (if you can keep it in 2020, but this would make it easier), and for better or worse, you get public praise from moderates and some liberals for "doing the right thing".

    Oh yeah, I agree that the CR should be passed today, I just mean that on like, day 14 of this shutdown the Senate could have conceivably just said you know what, fuck you, here's a 12 month bill fuck off. They just didn't.

    Which is why I feel like the Dems should make that a louder aspect of the press rounds. It's not just on Trump.

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Messaging from the Ds is coming out:


    The longest shutdown in American history will finally end. The president has agreed to our request to open the government then debate border security. This is great news for 800,000 federal workers & millions of Americans who depend on government services.

    Sen. Schumer is the honorable senator from New York and the minority leader of the Senate

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor regular Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Oh, I thought the question was about vote counts.

    Yes, they absolutely have the constitutional authority to override veto

    Hell, they have the constitutional authority to enact laws without the President's signature.

    As written, Congress just needs to give POTUS a 10-day courtesy window to object.

  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes regular Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    cursedking wrote: »
    R senator from WV speaking now, I'm interested to hear what she can even have to say about it, given that she voted no yesterday

    McConnell's messaging was "we won't vote for a bill POTUS won't sign"

    So, now that he will, that's an easy out for all of their spineless members.

    Ok and please, just to make sure I'm not crazy: They could override the veto, right? Isn't McConnell essentially ceding power to check the executive by not overturning a veto when he could?

    Theoretically? Sure, and this is a great rhetorical cudgel since they helpfully passed it right before this shit show which looks horrible to a casual glance.

    I think it is a bit of self delusion to think that votes for something their party nominally supported is the same thing as votes for something the head of their party actively opposes. Yesterday was an example that they don't really have the votes to pass a real clean CR if Trump still opposed it. They certainly wouldn't have the votes to override a veto if that were the case.

    My speculation is that yesterday Trump still had, at least theoretically, some leverage.

    Now it is clear he has none, and there's no reason for any Republican who isn't a true believer in the kool-aid that Trump is serving, to balk or sit on the fence.

    It'll be interesting to see what the vote is on the CR that Trump said he'll pass, because I think it might be more indicative of who wants off this train.

    On the other hand McConnell isn't stupid enough to risk that being made public, so I wouldn't be surprised if he pushed for a 100-0 vote, just to not have names named.

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  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    Simple message. But honestly it’s the right move. The Dems did good in not caving and they don’t need to take a victory lap. Try and peel off GOP for a proper budget vote and keep telling Trump to get fucked via legislative procedures.

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