US Government Shutdown 2018/2019 - read mod post on pg 23

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I can only imagine what the founding fathers would say about the current state of affairs (once they got past the technology, civil rights and womens suffrage of course) about the current situation and how one party was basically going through with what amounted to a suicide pact with the well being of the nation over a fucking wall that won't put a dent in illegal immigration.

    The founding fathers aren't worth the dirt they're buried in, they were by and large shitty people and we need to stop worshipping them

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  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Is there any way to elect new leadership to end the shutdown?

    Like, say four Republican senators decide that enough is enough.

    Do they have to change party affiliation to vote for the same person as the Democrats?

    Can they still call themselves Republicans, but caucus with the Democrats on a limited basis until the government is funded?

    When can such a vote be held?

    Are there any limitations on who it can be?

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Hirocon wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    I'm listening to CNN right now and they just the administration is preparing for the shutdown to last through February.

    There's no way this lasts through February right? Right!?!

    It could last for six more years.

    Not necessarily. The less the government works and the more it lacks staff to enforce anything, the less it can keep anything going, including shutting itself down. At some point of the old government not actually being relevant or tangible, somebody else will just decide to be the new king of Utah or whatever. Presumably people with state-based authority, in this case?

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Officially the Senate wouldn't see 47 dems and 4 pubs, just 51 senators voting for it. No rules against such "coalition" nominations, as the system wasn't designed with parties in mind.

    Question is whether you can persuade them.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Tarantio wrote: »
    Is there any way to elect new leadership to end the shutdown?

    Like, say four Republican senators decide that enough is enough.

    Do they have to change party affiliation to vote for the same person as the Democrats?

    Can they still call themselves Republicans, but caucus with the Democrats on a limited basis until the government is funded?

    When can such a vote be held?

    Are there any limitations on who it can be?

    Elected officials can vote either way on any topic.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    How can this possibly last through Febuary like news agencies are reporting that the WH is preparing for it to last? I honestly didn't think it'd last this long, and thought there was no way it would continue throughout the whole month of January. There's no way this things goes 2 months. 45 days even. 45 days is 3 paychecks I believe getting paid every 2 weeks.

    I'm now getting worried. If this lasts that long, what happens, really? The democracy can't end, do democrats have to cave to keep it afloat until things get even worse? I'm not trying to doomsay, but hearing these reports has me really worried for the first time.

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  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    Is there any way to elect new leadership to end the shutdown?

    Like, say four Republican senators decide that enough is enough.

    Do they have to change party affiliation to vote for the same person as the Democrats?

    Can they still call themselves Republicans, but caucus with the Democrats on a limited basis until the government is funded?

    When can such a vote be held?

    Are there any limitations on who it can be?

    Elected officials can vote either way on any topic.

    But the Senate Majority leader isn't in the constitution, or in any law I'm aware of. It's just in the senate rules.

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    The president has s counting on the Democrats capitulating to preserve the republic

    If the Dems give one dollar to his racist wall, they have failed

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  • DunderDunder Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    How can this possibly last through Febuary like news agencies are reporting that the WH is preparing for it to last? I honestly didn't think it'd last this long, and thought there was no way it would continue throughout the whole month of January. There's no way this things goes 2 months. 45 days even. 45 days is 3 paychecks I believe getting paid every 2 weeks.

    I'm now getting worried. If this lasts that long, what happens, really? The democracy can't end, do democrats have to cave to keep it afloat until things get even worse? I'm not trying to doomsay, but hearing these reports has me really worried for the first time.

    If the Dems cave democracy is essentially over as conservatives will shut down the gov every time they want their way.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Tarantio wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    Is there any way to elect new leadership to end the shutdown?

    Like, say four Republican senators decide that enough is enough.

    Do they have to change party affiliation to vote for the same person as the Democrats?

    Can they still call themselves Republicans, but caucus with the Democrats on a limited basis until the government is funded?

    When can such a vote be held?

    Are there any limitations on who it can be?

    Elected officials can vote either way on any topic.

    But the Senate Majority leader isn't in the constitution, or in any law I'm aware of. It's just in the senate rules.

    The so called nuclear option

    51 senators can essentially blow up the senate and force rule changes on a majority basis

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Hey guys lets not bother with your future history fiction about the break up of the US just yet.

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  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Tarantio wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    Is there any way to elect new leadership to end the shutdown?

    Like, say four Republican senators decide that enough is enough.

    Do they have to change party affiliation to vote for the same person as the Democrats?

    Can they still call themselves Republicans, but caucus with the Democrats on a limited basis until the government is funded?

    When can such a vote be held?

    Are there any limitations on who it can be?

    Elected officials can vote either way on any topic.

    But the Senate Majority leader isn't in the constitution, or in any law I'm aware of. It's just in the senate rules.

    The so called nuclear option

    51 senators can essentially blow up the senate and force rule changes on a majority basis

    What I'm curious about is if there's an option to change the leadership without changing the rules.

  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    I'm scared shitless about what'll happen to the worldwide economy come the last week of March, if the Shutdown is still happening and May's government can't get a Bexit deal in place.

    Moody's and Standard & Poors are already hinting about dropping the US government's credit rating if the shutdown lasts through February, plus the interest payments on our debt are kinda in limbo while we're gridlocked. The dollar/US treasury bond market would see a huge dip if that happens, combined with China and Germany facing monetary roadblocks and knowing the pound will tank on a dealess Brexit, the world markets will be turbofucked.

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Hirocon wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Yeah, if the fed is shut down that long the states will start having to pick up the slack.

    Hey, why don't we actually do this? Could a state pass a law saying, we'll pay federal employees that currently aren't getting paid because of the shutdown, with the caveat that the money has to be returned to the state if an when the government finally reopens and the federal government gives them back-pay?

    I imagine this might strain some states since states have to actually balance their budgets, but it's a nice idea.

    States can't pass laws that control the Federal budget. And no state is going to gamble on spending their money with only a vague hope of being repaid.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Heffling wrote: »
    Hirocon wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Yeah, if the fed is shut down that long the states will start having to pick up the slack.

    Hey, why don't we actually do this? Could a state pass a law saying, we'll pay federal employees that currently aren't getting paid because of the shutdown, with the caveat that the money has to be returned to the state if an when the government finally reopens and the federal government gives them back-pay?

    I imagine this might strain some states since states have to actually balance their budgets, but it's a nice idea.

    States can't pass laws that control the Federal budget. And no state is going to gamble on spending their money with only a vague hope of being repaid.

    States can (and some do) offer unemployment benefits to workers hit by the shutdown. That is very close to what Hirocon was describing.

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  • djmitchelladjmitchella Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    (canadian here so I honestly don't know) Which part(parts?) of the government runs voting? What would happen if that part was still shut down at election time? Or is it state/party level or something else?

    (edit: @ mods - sorry if this sounds like doomsaying, I wasn't trying to do that, I just saw a lot of posts saying '. . . whatever . . . until the next election' and it got me thinking)

    djmitchella on
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    (canadian here so I honestly don't know) Which part(parts?) of the government runs voting? What would happen if that part was still shut down at election time? Or is it state/party level or something else?

    Elections are managed by the states, so unaffected.

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  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    (canadian here so I honestly don't know) Which part(parts?) of the government runs voting? What would happen if that part was still shut down at election time? Or is it state/party level or something else?

    Elections are managed by the states, so unaffected.

    But regulated by the FEC, which is shut down...

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    (canadian here so I honestly don't know) Which part(parts?) of the government runs voting? What would happen if that part was still shut down at election time? Or is it state/party level or something else?

    Elections are managed by the states, so unaffected.

    But regulated by the FEC, which is shut down...

    ... so elections will still happen, they'll just be...

    ... interesting.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited January 2019
    Dunder wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    How can this possibly last through Febuary like news agencies are reporting that the WH is preparing for it to last? I honestly didn't think it'd last this long, and thought there was no way it would continue throughout the whole month of January. There's no way this things goes 2 months. 45 days even. 45 days is 3 paychecks I believe getting paid every 2 weeks.

    I'm now getting worried. If this lasts that long, what happens, really? The democracy can't end, do democrats have to cave to keep it afloat until things get even worse? I'm not trying to doomsay, but hearing these reports has me really worried for the first time.

    If the Dems cave democracy is essentially over as conservatives will shut down the gov every time they want their way.

    Technically, shutdowns only occur when we get to a lapse in funding. The rest of the government is funded until (I believe) September, so it can't just be arbitrarily shut down before that. If, hypothetically, we introduced a funding bill that carried us through November 2020, nobody would be able to shut down the government again until after the next election.

    Frequent shutdowns have been made possible by the fact that we keep introducing CRs that fund the government a few months at a time. Like, the bill the Senate signed in December would only have gotten us to February.

    But it's not like Trump could, at any time, just say "I DIDN'T GET MARSHMALLOWS ON MY YAMS LAST NIGHT, I'M TURNING OFF THE GOVERNMENT NOW."

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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    Not to cross the streams but I'm hoping the Russia investigation takes Trump down long before the shutdown goes past the point of no return for the union.

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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    I think we have maybe one more paycheck cycle before things start getting really bad. I've seen a stat saying the average American has about 3 paychecks worth of savings, so two fully missed paychecks would put a lot of people in the position of, 'okay, I have about two weeks to either find a new job, or I might not be covering rent this month'. And I do agree that the airports are probably the weak link in a chain. We're still a few months away from IRS refunds starting to be noticeably delayed, and most people probably don't directly interact with the other departments that often. Of course, rural dudes who never leave their hometowns might not notice anything about the airports either, but the rich definitely will, and if anyone can reach McConnell it's probably his donors.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    The report that the WH is preparing for the shutdown to last thru February is a leaked lie to try and make Dems panic

    Even before identifying this as a shitty bullying tactic, remember that there is no planning at the WH (Trump said it himself with the NO CHAOS tweet, there’s nobody there to even plan lunch)

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Not to cross the streams but I'm hoping the Russia investigation takes Trump down long before the shutdown goes past the point of no return for the union.

    To get ahead of the usual 'let it sink in, it won't take him down' pessimism realism, I do hope that the Russia investigation puts enough of a dent into Trump and the GOP as a whole (in terms of being shaken, if not actual repercussions) that it gets enough of them willing to work on some shit at least.

    I would LOVE for there to be actual consequences for this bullshit, and maybe some day, some how, there will be, but in the short term I'd also accept having enough concrete evidence that some people stop acting like idiots and assholes. We've kind of seen it already, with that Judge who everyone was afraid was just going to be a Trumpian stooge getting to read some of the unredacted details and coming back extremely unhappy about what he saw (or so we interpreted, at least, maybe he just had a shitty breakfast...).

    Anyways, I do hope your larger point, that some manner of government and law enforcement is able to break some of the gridlock. It's all fun and games until the House Intelligence Committee actually starts getting their hands on the good stuff.

    It has been long joked here (and I hold it to be true) that plenty of Trump sycophants will abruptly have never heard of the guy the moment the winds turn. Right now people are kowtowing to him out of fear of being primaried from the Right, but if public sentiment goes sour enough that his influence starts becoming toxic even to fringe elements of his base, maybe it has an impact. Maybe actuarial tables kick in (yes, people have been saying that the GOP is going old enough that this will happen any day now, and I'm aware there is no shortage of young Republicans or Conservatives), maybe enough staunch defenders suffer substantial enough consequences of this intransigence to back away from the lever, even for a moment.

    Look, before the usual names go for the usual hot take reaction farms, I get that there are a lot of If's here. I get that life isn't a movie (lol reality's script writers are hacks, there I saved someone a moment), that there is no guarantee of a happy ending. I just retain a shred of hope that it's possible for a better outcome than 'millions starving in the streets, massive social upheaval, the military stepping in, civil war 2 electric boogaloo'.

    I could be wrong, but the absolute darkest timeline involves so much suffering for so many people I have to hope it can be avoided until it isn't. We can't save everyone, damage has already been done to the lives of innocent people, some of those lives have been lost unnecessarily, but I hope this stupid shutdown ends sooner rather than later, and that the longer it goes on the more of an impact it has. House Republicans are already starting to break ranks, and whatever McConnell might say about being immune to pressure, I don't think the entire political system is. Even if it's not them, but their wealthy donors seeing repercussions that does it.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Okay I think we can take a break today until legislators come back tomorrow

    Geth, close the thread

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  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative So It Goes. Closing thread...

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Geth, open the thread.

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  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative So It Goes. Opening thread...

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Undead Scottsman on
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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Hey chaps and chapesses, here from the UK, our government and country is fucked haha, you guys doing alr- oh. Oh dear.

    More constructively: I really hope that we don't no deal out while your government is still turned off. That would be, er, pretty awful. Has there been any break in the deadlock at all yet?

    Legacy
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Hey chaps and chapesses, here from the UK, our government and country is fucked haha, you guys doing alr- oh. Oh dear.

    More constructively: I really hope that we don't no deal out while your government is still turned off. That would be, er, pretty awful. Has there been any break in the deadlock at all yet?

    No. Trump is tweeting angrily but no one cares.

    Fundamentally Trump knows he's backed into a corner with no plan and he's flailing trying to change the situation but it's not doing anything.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Solar wrote: »
    Hey chaps and chapesses, here from the UK, our government and country is fucked haha, you guys doing alr- oh. Oh dear.

    More constructively: I really hope that we don't no deal out while your government is still turned off. That would be, er, pretty awful. Has there been any break in the deadlock at all yet?

    Nope. McConnel is still a ghost (or maybe a wraith bound to Trump's will) and Trump is too stupid and narcissistic to be fully cognizant of the damage he's causing, so he's not likely to be swayed despite polling being against him.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    Trump isn’t folding or compromising

    It’s going to be Dems caving or Rs overriding him

    Senate Rs (and House Rs for the override) are where we need to see pressure

    Captain Inertia on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Trump folds all the time. And he clearly knows he's in a bad situation right now. It's just a question of how he decides to escape the trap he's built for himself.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Trump isn’t folding or compromising

    It’s going to be Dems caving or Rs overriding him

    Senate Rs (and House Rs for the override) are where we need to see pressure

    Also D’s in both chambers, because lord knows we’re in uncharted territory at this point and their spines almost certainly need stiffening.

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  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Trump isn’t folding or compromising

    It’s going to be Dems caving or Rs vetoing him

    Senate Rs (and House Rs for the override) are where we need to see pressure

    I don't see how anyone can say with confidence that Trump will make any particular decision. Almost everything he has done has been in a fit of pique caused by some unpredictable force. Like maybe a magazine cover rubs him the wrong way, or someone's tweet does better than his, or the Times does an article about how McConnell is actually way more powerful than him and he just lashes out.

    The one thing Trump has consistently been is inconsistent, as cliche as that sounds.

    Or he really is compromised by Putin and this is the endgame. Just shut the government down for as long as republicans allow it and see how much damage you can do.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    An unintended consequence of the government shutdown: My local mass transit (bus system) has given notice that it will need to dip into local reserves, because it isn't getting any federal aid or grants. That will last them, at best, a month or two. After that they'll need to look into revolving credit and other loans... and likely will need to drastically shut down mass transit support.

    I don't live in a major metro area. Total population around is 30-40k. The bus routes are very much a thing employed by the poor more than anything else, despite efforts to increase overall ridership. So to lose bus service would massively hurt our community.

    Just goes to show, the government's reach is a lot further than most would expect.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited January 2019
    As a reminder, the Judiciary runs out of money on Friday.

    This is going to get so much more stupid before it gets better.

    moniker on
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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    US Customs Officers aren't being paid also, right?? I am wondering how much longer they will be able to put up with that until they either decide to just straight up close the border or to only staff to bare minimum levels that will effectively close it anyways. It's going to be fun when me and my wife won't be able to cross the border to go to work in a reasonable amount of time.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    wazilla wrote: »
    Trump isn’t folding or compromising

    It’s going to be Dems caving or Rs vetoing him

    Senate Rs (and House Rs for the override) are where we need to see pressure

    I don't see how anyone can say with confidence that Trump will make any particular decision. Almost everything he has done has been in a fit of pique caused by some unpredictable force. Like maybe a magazine cover rubs him the wrong way, or someone's tweet does better than his, or the Times does an article about how McConnell is actually way more powerful than him and he just lashes out.

    The one thing Trump has consistently been is inconsistent, as cliche as that sounds.

    Or he really is compromised by Putin and this is the endgame. Just shut the government down for as long as republicans allow it and see how much damage you can do.

    Nah, this isn't an endgame for Putin. Putin supports Trump because Trump is taking a jackhammer to american international power and because he's supposed to be getting rid of the sanctions on Russians and because he's not Hillary Clinton, who Putin really really hates.

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