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[Overwatch] Storm Rising

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Posts

  • McMoogleMcMoogle Registered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    Also
    -check a wiki any time you're curious
    -watch pros
    -listen to wise folks like Brutal, Kana and surreality.

    Or just ask Chance.

    steam_sig.png
    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Cleave/No Cleave isn't super relevant to my concerns, which is mostly "How long can I stand near X without heals before I die" and "Is that time longer than it takes to freeze them".

    Ah well for the answers to these and other mysteries we shall have to (sunglasses)... crunch some numbers.

    The short version is yes, no matter which melee-centric enemy you're facing, time to freeze is always seconds less than they need to kill you, even if they're doing optimum combos.

    Works like this. While Mei's freeze can benefit from damage boosts, the damage done has no impact on the time-to-freeze. What impacts time-to-freeze is simply how many "tics" you've landed on the enemy. It requires 30 tics to freeze an enemy and the blaster does 20 tics per second, thus you need 1.5 seconds of perfect spraying to freeze any enemy. Any enemy. Armor has no impact on time-to-freeze.

    As for the matchups:


    Reinhardt
    4 swings (4 secs) (75 x 4) 300 damage or or 3 swings and a firestrike. Firestrike cancels the swing animation so about 3 seconds with combo.

    Edit: waaait a minute firestrike does 100, so he only needs 2 swings. 75x2 + 100 = 250. Rein can theoretically do it in 2 seconds.

    You freeze Rein 0.5 seconds before he could kill you. /end edit.



    Brigitte
    Let us presume Brig will use her stun combo to deal the last 100 damage on you - her fastest ttk outside of booping you off a ledge. She still needs to land 5 swings before launching into that combo. 2 swings per sec at 35 damage per swing = 2.5 seconds for 5 swings or 175 damage + flash+flail+boop or 1 second = 3.5 seconds total ttk you.

    You freeze Brig 2.0 seconds before she could kill you.

    And so on.

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    McMoogle wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Also
    -check a wiki any time you're curious
    -watch pros
    -listen to wise folks like Brutal, Kana and surreality.

    Or just ask Chance.

    I'm always here! ^.^

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Monkey Ball Warrior
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Fair enough. But I'm not perfect. I'm not going to get every bit of the stream to land where it should (are ticks a thing? The freeze visuals do not imply any kind of discrete mechanism). If I was perfect, I'd win every mei duel, which is always won by the mei that could either track better or feint better with cryofreeze.

    So what got me down this path was "Yeh, sure, that wasn't my best performance, but Rein literally did nothing but melee me and I know you can't melee anyone to death that quickly, wtf is going on?". And what was going on is Rein melee is just super buffed relative to other heroes. Which is very useful information.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Fair enough. But I'm not perfect. I'm not going to get every bit of the stream to land where it should (are ticks a thing? The freeze visuals do not imply any kind of discrete mechanism). If I was perfect, I'd win every mei duel, which is always won by the mei that could either track better or feint better with cryofreeze.

    So what got me down this path was "Yeh, sure, that wasn't my best performance, but Rein literally did nothing but melee me and I know you can't melee anyone to death that quickly, wtf is going on?". And what was going on is Rein melee is just super buffed relative to other heroes. Which is very useful information.

    Oh God yea melee is Rein's primary fire.

    Edit: also it's less about being perfect than just kind of feeling those numbers as you play. Don't make me find the clip of The One-Clipped Sentry Mode Bastion, 'cause that is some theoretically possible shit.

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited February 16
    Chance wrote: »
    Fair enough. But I'm not perfect. I'm not going to get every bit of the stream to land where it should (are ticks a thing? The freeze visuals do not imply any kind of discrete mechanism). If I was perfect, I'd win every mei duel, which is always won by the mei that could either track better or feint better with cryofreeze.

    So what got me down this path was "Yeh, sure, that wasn't my best performance, but Rein literally did nothing but melee me and I know you can't melee anyone to death that quickly, wtf is going on?". And what was going on is Rein melee is just super buffed relative to other heroes. Which is very useful information.

    Oh God yea melee is Rein's primary fire.

    Yes I know that, but in my head that was a straight nerf, for balance because he's a tank.

    "Here is a hero with a giant health pool and an enourmous sheild with an even bigger health pool, and an extremely effective mobility button that will oneshot any non-tank in its path. In exchange, he has no damage move except the same weak melee everyone else has (but with better range and cleave) and one fireball on a long cooldown."

    That's what I get for trying to make sense of how balancing works in this game.

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • TexiKenTexiKen Registered User regular
    FFS Houston you're as bad as the Texans.

    wD7dhrj.png
  • CoinageCoinage I think I look handsome Registered User regular
    They're going to have to change this hilariously optimistic OWL schedule

    My baba said that I'm not living right
    I said I'm trying baba
  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    Holy shit, Sym yesterday, TORB TODAY.

    Dafran of course. The dream is real.

    ChanceCantidoKanaH3Knuckles
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Chance wrote: »
    Fair enough. But I'm not perfect. I'm not going to get every bit of the stream to land where it should (are ticks a thing? The freeze visuals do not imply any kind of discrete mechanism). If I was perfect, I'd win every mei duel, which is always won by the mei that could either track better or feint better with cryofreeze.

    So what got me down this path was "Yeh, sure, that wasn't my best performance, but Rein literally did nothing but melee me and I know you can't melee anyone to death that quickly, wtf is going on?". And what was going on is Rein melee is just super buffed relative to other heroes. Which is very useful information.

    Oh God yea melee is Rein's primary fire.

    Yes I know that, but in my head that was a straight nerf, for balance because he's a tank.

    "Here is a hero with a giant health pool and an enourmous sheild with an even bigger health pool, and an extremely effective mobility button that will oneshot any non-tank in its path. In exchange, he has no damage move except the same weak melee everyone else has (but with better range and cleave) and one fireball on a long cooldown."

    That's what I get for trying to make sense of how balancing works in this game.

    Well, I think you're right - a straight nerf, for balance, not because he's a tank, but because he's The Tank.

    Rein was the prototype barrier tank - the first one they tried, and toyed around with and it's kind of an insane ability. Like seriously - think about it. A giant shield your enemies can't shoot through but your allies can that you can cover a whole goddamned team with and block whole ults with and you can twist it around as quickly as you can look. Like seriously, if we imagine that ability in so many other games it's just bonkers.

    To illustrate - imagine Orisa walking around shooting people with a shield that shifts with her PoV. That shit is ridonkulous. We gotta' do something, Jeff!

    Well, let's make him not shoot at all. But once he's close, he's meaner than Winston.

    And thus Rein who can move with his shield can't shoot, and Orisa who can shoot, shoots shields that can't move.

    Did I just write a poem?

    rein
    who can move with his shield
    can't shoot,
    and orisa
    who can shoot, shoots shields
    that can't move
    in winter

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Monkey Ball Warrior
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Yes but also Orisa's shield has a tiny fraction of the health Rein's has. And then Winston's is a tiny fraction of that one... but is larger than Rein's.

    As an aside, to this day I don't understand how Winston isn't just really super bad. He's got about the same HP as real tanks, and yeh, he's got amazing mobility ... which can actually be a bad thing, given he's a tank and can just abandon his team at will. But so does DVA, and DVA also has defense matrix and rocket. All Winston has is that sad shield that is basically useless; it fails if the enemy even sneezes in its direction. And his primary fire... I don't even know if its good or not. I can't read it. It kinda looks like it barely tickles you, but then I've died to it often because I'm like "eh, it's just a winston, who cares, we need to kill the real tanks/healers", and then he just sits there and holds left click until I die because ???

    People love to play Winston, so I'm probably just not seeing the appeal. Which is typical.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Winston has a ton of strengths, not the least of which is he's the best dive tank.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Rein is charging forward
    shields up, voice lines bound.
    He cannot know his doom, around the corner.
    Still, waiting, an omnic menace, a friendly voice,
    a spider waiting for her prey
    to appear in her sightline.
    Orisa moves for no man.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    a giggle
    and blade of blue
    light
    in my eyes
    stuck and struck down
    and a giggle

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Monkey Ball Warrior
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited February 16
    Chance wrote: »
    Winston has a ton of strengths, not the least of which is he's the best dive tank.

    Does that come down entirely to his mobility? Why doesn't say Dva hold that crown? Or hamster-guy-whose-name-i-can-never-remember?

    (dive tank: tank who does not protect directly, but instead excels at guerilla style tactics; ambush, harass, then disappear before they can retaliate)

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    Winston has a ton of strengths, not the least of which is he's the best dive tank.

    Does that come down entirely to his mobility? Why doesn't say Dva hold that crown? Or hamster-guy-whose-name-i-can-never-remember?

    (dive tank: tank who does not protect directly, but instead excels at guerilla style tactics; ambush, harass, then disappear before they can retaliate)

    His shield is strong enough that it gives him just enough time to isolate a desired enemy squishy and, if done right, kill them before they can get away/their team can get in to help them. Of course the classic dive also has D.Va going in with him, using her defense matrix to mitigate any possible damage long enough to let him do his job and jump back out if need be.

    ChanceMusicool
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Sprinkle a little Tracer or Genji on top and you got yourself good eatin'.

    Edit: also Tesla cannon goes through barriers. And D.Va's hot shit but she can't block a Doom or D.Va or Junk ult.

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    In addition to what's already stated, Winston's primary hits multiple people. This applies incredible pressure to the opposing team as they're trying to keep three people up simultaneously.

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
    ChanceKana
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    As if to punctuate this discussion, I just got my ass handed to me by a diamond Rein. He had 2 primary healers (well until the ana switched to Brig - I'd gotten some nice one and two clips on her), and we had none at all till someone went Zen after we took A.

    This Rein was amazing. So many times I thought I had him dead to rights and WHAM dead.

    Edit: Also as we can see - Winston's strengths are legion. Not to mention an ult that everyone thought was trash at first lol.

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    2 comp games - first 2 since placements.

    On lijiang I kinda semi carry we win 2 and 0.

    On Numbani of all places we're obliterated by a team that really supports their almost-diamond Hanzo. Zarya bubbles and Brig armor always slapped on, you don't kill him if it's not a one-shot.

    It was a trouncing.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Yes but also Orisa's shield has a tiny fraction of the health Rein's has. And then Winston's is a tiny fraction of that one... but is larger than Rein's.

    As an aside, to this day I don't understand how Winston isn't just really super bad. He's got about the same HP as real tanks, and yeh, he's got amazing mobility ... which can actually be a bad thing, given he's a tank and can just abandon his team at will. But so does DVA, and DVA also has defense matrix and rocket. All Winston has is that sad shield that is basically useless; it fails if the enemy even sneezes in its direction. And his primary fire... I don't even know if its good or not. I can't read it. It kinda looks like it barely tickles you, but then I've died to it often because I'm like "eh, it's just a winston, who cares, we need to kill the real tanks/healers", and then he just sits there and holds left click until I die because ???

    People love to play Winston, so I'm probably just not seeing the appeal. Which is typical.

    In a way, Winston really is kinda bad. He's got a winrate that gets more and more awful the lower you go in SR and he only really reaches a decent winrate as you approach the highest echelons of the game.

    BUT

    If we're talking how Winston works, well then!

    Winston 'tanks' because if you don't stop him he will kill someone or someones. Winston is really a timer: "I will kill a squishy in X seconds unless you stop me." And stopping him usually takes more attention and resources than Winston himself has used. And this is where bubble comes in. Bubble doesn't block damage really. Nine times out of ten, bubble id for blocking the line of sight and certain key projectiles that would stop Winston's timer-threat. That's really it.

    So say I'm playing Winston and I want to do that nebulous "create space" thing. I peek and spot their Ana. I jumip on their Ana. I block the sleep dart with my bubble, the anti-heal grenade splashes on the edge of my bubble, granting Ana an extra second or two against my lightning. But the timer is still ticking, thanks to my bubble blocking the sleep dart, which would have ended my threat to Ana.

    In reaction to this, Roadhog turns to stop me. But he can't stop me too easily, because of my bubble. No, he has to lumber over for the next 3 to 5 seconds to gain LoS with me. In that time I might have already killed Ana. Moira sees this and tries to help. But again, she needs LoS and she needs it fast. So she fades through the bubble to begin spraying Ana with healing juice. At this point, I recognise that I can't kill anyone: Ana and Moira will heal each other about as fast as I try zappity zap them.

    But what an almighty mess I just made! Sleep dart down, biotic grenade down, fade, and maybe Hog's hook. And all for my own leap and bubble cooldowns. In terms of resources lost, what I've done is the equivalent of taking a bishop in exchange for a pawn.

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
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    BionicPenguinChancejoshofalltradesKlatuH3Knuckles
  • RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Or just "Ron" Registered User regular
    That's a very compelling narrative but in a real game a hanzo kills you with storm arrows and then your team is down 5v6

  • BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    Or a reaper or DVA breathes in your direction

  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Waitwaitwait I know how this goes!

    Then a Sombra appears out of nowhere and hacks you, and Zen throws discord on you, and Torbjorn had a turret set up riiiiiight where you jumped and you never saw it, and now he's firing his turret gun - a gun that shoots more turrets - at your face and now you can't see anything but turrets because your face is covered in turrets, but that's probably for the best because all you'd see if you could see at all is a seventh player on the enemy team somehow and he's also shooting at you with his Anti-Winston-Only Gun and miraculously none of this was blocked by your bubble and your team is nowhere to be found - not helping you at all and not even achieving anything valuable in the meantime.

    That's how The Ballad of the Main Tank goes, no? :P

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
    Chancejoshofalltrades
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular

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    emnmnmeCantidoPailryder
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    ^^^^
    I heart Jojoverwatch

    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
    Pailryder
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    When to jump in with Winston:

    1) An enemy is isolated and won’t win a 1v1 with you

    2) An enemy is low on health and you can kill them before your jump cooldown comes back

    3) Your Zarya will bubble you just as you land, so you can save your shield until that exhausts, allowing you to disrupt the enemy team en masse before you jump back out

    4) Your teammate is losing a 1v1 and needs backup that won’t get you both killed

    5) You can reach their backline and Mercy is damage boosting you (questionable, though)

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
    Chance
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Winston, same as any diver, relies on a certain level of distraction being created by the rest of his team in coordination with his dive. He can't endure the focused attention of the entire team, but if they all turn to fight him then your team should be sweeping in to clean them up. If you can't rely on them to do that then Winston isn't much good.

    Chance
  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited February 16
    I pick winston when I am sick of a genji or a widow and want to harass them until they switch. Or against a team of squishies who have been killing us, but clearly aren't equipped to handle a winston. Not 100% successful, but more often than not a good thing, as the rest of my team just seems to be in denial about how they are picking our team apart. If they pull out a reaper or bastion I'll just switch off again.

    soylenth on
    McMoogleChance
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    One big thing to remember is that you don't have to always initiate with your dive, especially if the rest of your team isn't following you in. Stageup on high ground and drop down onto the enemy, or just walk in. Once you get low use your mobility to escape, heal, and go back in.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    MusicooljoshofalltradesNobodyChance
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited February 17
    Kana wrote: »
    One big thing to remember is that you don't have to always initiate with your dive, especially if the rest of your team isn't following you in. Stageup on high ground and drop down onto the enemy, or just walk in. Once you get low use your mobility to escape, heal, and go back in.

    For sure. If there's a nice safe high ground or corner just leap to that, maybe tickle the enemy from max range while you wait, whispering "lookatmelookatmelookatme".

    If they charge at you, great! You're demanding attention. Bubble juke then leap away and start again. If not, then consider dropping or walking into battle, so that if the enemy team is a team of wildlife poachers after your pelt you just jump away immediately.

    Or jump on the Hanzo who alone of his team has taken (and even CAN take) high ground. By standing there on a team of ground pounders he's basically alone. Use your bubble to block most of his storm bow. If he drops onto low ground great! Their sniper now has a shitty angle and only sonic arrow left in his kit, and he needs Mada Mada. And you can now sit on the high ground safely controllig that space, waiting your next cds and then doing the above.

    Or jump PAST their whole team and behind their Ana, increasing the time for reinforcements to arrive, and with a handily safe corner to back away to if this seven man team of Winston counter picks kills your bubble and keeps chasing for 6 seconds.

    There are solutions.

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure "mada mada" means "it's nothing" or "don't worry about it." (Checks.) It means "not yet" or "not good enough yet (to defeat me)."

    So neither of us knew lol
    Musicool wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    One big thing to remember is that you don't have to always initiate with your dive, especially if the rest of your team isn't following you in. Stageup on high ground and drop down onto the enemy, or just walk in. Once you get low use your mobility to escape, heal, and go back in.

    For sure. If there's a nice safe high ground or corner just leap to that, maybe tickle the enemy from max range while you wait, whispering "lookatmelookatmelookatme".

    We talked a lot earlier about how a tank can only do their job when they're being supported. This is precisely right - and what a Winston is doing when he taps an Ana on the shoulder like this and says hi, is denying the enemy's team the support their tank is relying on at the frontline.

    Even if he doesn't kill her, Ana will turn around and do somethin' - and if it takes four seconds or eight to get that Winston to screw off, that's four or eight seconds her tank wasn't seeing the benefit of her healing. That's a dead tank, but the Winston's outie headin' for a health pack or his own healer.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Musicool
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    Mada Mada is under "Not good enough" on the voiceline wheel.



    Also, apparently there are reports that unless you are watching the OWL games on Twitch, you aren't getting tokens. Allegedly it's being looked into but something to keep in mind while watching.

  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited February 17
    A friend of mine told me it means "More More" so I just mixed it in with Genji's "I need healing" meme in my head. It's really just a personal in-joke for the heal hungry weeb dpses.

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • TDawgTDawg Registered User regular
    Quick question- are medals for both teams, or just your team? I've noticed I'm starting to rack up a few here and there during games (last night I had 5 in one game! I just finished with Gold Objective Time!), and although I've definitely gotten better I don't think I'm doing that well.

    NNID: ohnoTom || 3DS: 1762-3198-2019 || Steam || Take My Good Pokemon
    Let's Plays of Japanese Games
  • McMoogleMcMoogle Registered User regular
    TDawg wrote: »
    Quick question- are medals for both teams, or just your team? I've noticed I'm starting to rack up a few here and there during games (last night I had 5 in one game! I just finished with Gold Objective Time!), and although I've definitely gotten better I don't think I'm doing that well.

    Just yours.

    steam_sig.png
    TDawgChanceH3Knuckles
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    McMoogle wrote: »
    TDawg wrote: »
    Quick question- are medals for both teams, or just your team? I've noticed I'm starting to rack up a few here and there during games (last night I had 5 in one game! I just finished with Gold Objective Time!), and although I've definitely gotten better I don't think I'm doing that well.

    Just yours.

    Correct. Cards after PotG are the top numbers across both teams.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    H3Knuckles
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Just bought some Lucio-Ohs for my daughter under the condition that the loot boost is going under my account :3

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
    TDawgdavidsdurionsH3Knuckles
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    I have yet to see those in the wild despite going to multiple grocery stores.

    9MpLNPA.jpg
    Steam: MightyPotatoKing/King of the Impossible - Battle.net: PotatoKing#1893
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Wal Mart had it locally, maybe check and see if they have it online?

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
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