Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
+1
No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
I can't answer the first part but the last time they (as in the republicans) spent their time pointing at Hillary and the Steele dossier.
Just a side point: "The Ukraine" is defunct, and may be mildly insulting to Ukrainians, as the presence of "the" in the title kind of made it refer to a region of the USSR more than an independent country.
He allegedly leaned on the Ukrainian government to stop some investigation (I've never seen what this investigation was for) into his son. I don't know when this was, I assume after he left office.
I'm seeing that he, and other EU countries, wanted a prosecutor removed who was assigned a number of cases looking at Russian corruption in the Ukraine.
Why? Because the prosecutor hadn't touched the cases in two years. The suspicion was that he'd been compromised by Russia.
They are accusing Biden of improperly interfering to see that his son would be criminally investigated.
It is beyond stupid.
Meanwhile, in "Yes, of course it did" news
Didn't the previous Ukrainian government cancel an investigation to gain Trump's favor?
The State Department issued an export license for the missiles on Dec. 22, and on March 2 the Pentagon announced final approval for the sale of 210 Javelins and 35 launching units. The order to halt investigations into Mr. Manafort came in early April.
Volodymyr Ariev, a member of Parliament who is an ally of President Petro O. Poroshenko, readily acknowledged that the intention in Kiev was to put investigations into Mr. Manafort’s activities “in the long-term box.”
“In every possible way, we will avoid irritating the top American officials,” Mr. Ariev said in an interview. “We shouldn’t spoil relations with the administration.”
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
Campaign finance law:
1. A campaign donation (the investigation) from a foreign nation
2. Using federal aid money for his own campaign (as leverage for 1)
If Biden weren’t a political figure, he might also have civil standing for damages, but for good reason we’re allowed to say and write really awful things about politicians
Mostly this is the same shit he’s already done and not been held accountable for, so the country is already desensitized and their pivot to “I did it and it was awesome” signals we should expect far more of this very openly for the next many months
A news alert from the Wall Street Journal just popped up on my phone saying that Trump pressured the Ukrainian President eight times during that one phone call to work with Giuliani on investigating the Bidens.
+15
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
If there's a recording, that may actually have an impact because now Biden can call him weak and it will be very demonstrably true. If he plays it right, Biden could destroy him with this.
but it's Biden so the opportunity will likely be inadvertently squandered or flubbed
This is just fucking unreal to me. Like we have our president pressuring a foreign government to ratfuck for him against his political opponent. Like we find new lows as a country, but this one feels deeper than we've hit before.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
In addition the the campaign finance laws mentioned above, direct bribery of a foreign government or official is also just straight up illegal.
Its a fine line (we give countries money for international policy purposes all the time). However, I am pretty sure “We will give you xxx billion dollars in aid in exchange for opening a criminal investigation on a private US citizen” is way over it.
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
In addition the the campaign finance laws mentioned above, direct bribery of a foreign government or official is also just straight up illegal.
Its a fine line (we give countries money for international policy purposes all the time). However, I am pretty sure “We will give you xxx billion dollars in aid in exchange for opening a criminal investigation on a private US citizen” is way over it.
I can't find anything on is the FCPA can be applied to government officials Its a tough needle to thread.
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
In addition the the campaign finance laws mentioned above, direct bribery of a foreign government or official is also just straight up illegal.
Its a fine line (we give countries money for international policy purposes all the time). However, I am pretty sure “We will give you xxx billion dollars in aid in exchange for opening a criminal investigation on a private US citizen” is way over it.
I can't find anything on is the FCPA can be applied to government officials Its a tough needle to thread.
FCPA applies to all US citizens, not just businesses.
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
In addition the the campaign finance laws mentioned above, direct bribery of a foreign government or official is also just straight up illegal.
Its a fine line (we give countries money for international policy purposes all the time). However, I am pretty sure “We will give you xxx billion dollars in aid in exchange for opening a criminal investigation on a private US citizen” is way over it.
Hahahaha you think trump would offer money.
More likely he said something along the lines of "If you don't do it putin will destroy you."
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Highly illegal I'm sure. He basically tried to extort the ukraine to have a spurious investigation of a policial rival. But most likely nothing will come of it because we have no government body currently capable of doing anything.
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
In addition the the campaign finance laws mentioned above, direct bribery of a foreign government or official is also just straight up illegal.
Its a fine line (we give countries money for international policy purposes all the time). However, I am pretty sure “We will give you xxx billion dollars in aid in exchange for opening a criminal investigation on a private US citizen” is way over it.
Hahahaha you think trump would offer money.
More likely he said something along the lines of "If you don't do it putin will destroy you."
Supposedly he specifically offered them government aid in exchange for the investigation.
Assuming this his true he has two ways out:
1. As a federal official he can obtain an exemption from the FCPA for intelligence work provided he has submitted a report in writing about the reasoning behind the payment in question to the House and Senate intelligence committees.
2. He can prove that the Ukraine was going to do the investigation anyway as a routine governmental function and he was just paying to facilitate or speed it (this is supposed to apply for example to “rush fees” for construction permits an the like, it might fly but it would be totally different from the way that the exception is generally used).
This is highly illegal but Congress isn't gonna do anything about because Senate Republicans are dirtbags.
That's not entirely fair. It's also because the Democratic leadership are idiots.
Or cowards.
But you say tomato and I also say tomato because who in the hell says to-mah-to anyhow?
Anyhow, they’re either cowards, idiots, or both if they let Trump get away with this. They sit there, praying to the election dragon that Trump won’t get elected just so they can toss all this down the memory hole and “move on as a country” or some such bullshit. Then they’ll be totally shocked at why turnout for 2022 is down.
Fucking idiots.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
+9
I ZimbraWorst song, played on ugliest guitarRegistered Userregular
I feel like this is just another thing in a line of things that should matter but won't. This should be a big deal, but I'm reading it, and almost feel numb to it. It's just more of the same for this administration, normal operations, and I don't think anything will come of it.
+2
Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
The Pentagon will deploy U.S. forces to the Middle East on the heels of the Iranian attack on Saudi Arabian oil facilities, U.S. Secretary of Defense Mark Esper announced Friday.
“The president has approved the deployment of U.S. forces which will be defensive in nature and primarily focused on air and missile defense,” Esper said, adding that Saudi Arabia requested the support. “We will also work to accelerate the delivery of military equipment to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the UAE to enhance their ability to defend themselves,” he added.
Honestly fairly tame if not even uncommon if it just stops there.
Edit: Allow me to clarify. I mean the air and missile defense part. Deployment of those elements (along with their support) are not at all uncommon in a response like this and amounts to little more than saber rattling, if it stops there.
Air defense does jack shit by itself. The only way it’ll do anything is if Iran or some other actor does actually fly into the area.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Honestly fairly tame if not even uncommon if it just stops there.
Edit: Allow me to clarify. I mean the air and missile defense part. Deployment of those elements (along with their support) are not at all uncommon in a response like this and amounts to little more than saber rattling, if it stops there.
Air defense does jack shit by itself. The only way it’ll do anything is if Iran or some other actor does actually fly into the area.
The problem being that the US president is an unstable mess who very recently ordered an attack on Iran and then got cold feet at the last second, so now the Iranian government is trying to assess how much they can punish the US without provoking a significant response because they (mostly correctly) assume he's a pushover, so the risk of miscalculation leading to rapid escalation is about as high as it could possibly be.
Ed: which is to say that with a "normal" president and a "normal" NSC, I'd agree that this move alone isn't a huge risk. Although I'd be more worried about a deliberate provocation from US forces in that case, I'm 100x more worried about accidents in this one.
Going to war over a small sneak attack on an oil plant that killed no one, would certainly be something. It's not exactly 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.
America can be led around by the nose and used as a weapon by any tinpot dictator with a skill in flattery. I wonder how much all those conservative young men in the Armed Forces will enjoy dying for Prince Bin Salman's big money bags.
+11
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
Mainstream media has been centering all language on Iran proper, since around Tuesday afternoon. All mention of the Houthis or Yemen in general has been dropped by the wayside so they can bang the yellow journalism drum.
Remember the Maine!
BlackDragon480 on
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Treason. Biden is his expected opponent in an election. He is trying to use American power and assets to interfere in the next election.
I know this probably doesn't fit the textbook definition of treason. If so, let's change the definition to include this.
How can we go to war without a vote in Congress? This can’t fall under any terrorist bs cause it wasn’t even an attack on us.
I am not even saying they wouldn’t get the votes cause I heard at least one Dem say they were allowed to view the evidence whether it was Iran in secure viewing room and the Dem said it was pretty conclusive.
0
MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
Is this gonna be another one of those things that’s technically legal for the executive to do, but in an extremely unethical manner that no one will do anything about?
Or is this gonna be a highly illegal thing that no one will be do anything about?
Treason. Biden is his expected opponent in an election. He is trying to use American power and assets to interfere in the next election.
I know this probably doesn't fit the textbook definition of treason. If so, let's change the definition to include this.
Defining treason narrowly in the constitution is one of the few things I think they did right.
Treason is usually a "political" crime, in the sense that treason had been mostly defined throughout history as "anything that the king abhors". I'm not interested in giving a hand to anyone who would abuse treason statutes. We have election laws and anti corruption statutes. To the extent they are insufficient we should strengthen them, not abandon them in favor of expanding the definition of Treason.
House Intel, Oversight, and Foreign Affairs chairs send a joint letter to the White House requesting all records going back to January 2017 on: Rudy, Ukraine investigations, Ukraine defense aid, the July 25 phone call, and a transcript of that phone call; after laying out the funny story they'd heard about [all of this stuff we're hearing about now].
I think the relative timing of this has already been mentioned, but what struck me were the dates.
You can't return the cash the same day you get accused of taking it. Too obvious. You wait until everyone is supposed to be at the big event and slip it under the door. Except when it's 250 million dollars and a dozen people were going to see you renting the forklift.
Posts
I’m not defending Trump or play devil’s advocate by a long shot. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.
But how is it illegal. In the technical sense, is there a law saying the president can’t do this?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the executive can use foreign funds in order to get nations to comply in certain ways and has some discretion.
So even though Trump’s goal of withholding funds from Ukraine to be antagonistic towards Biden is definitely unethical, doesn’t Trump have the authority to withhold funds from Ukraine for any reason he want?
Or would this fall under general election interference laws, regardless of Trump requesting a third party?
I’m curious as to how they are going to try to spin this.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I can't answer the first part but the last time they (as in the republicans) spent their time pointing at Hillary and the Steele dossier.
The country's name is just "Ukraine."
Meanwhile, in "Yes, of course it did" news
Didn't the previous Ukrainian government cancel an investigation to gain Trump's favor?
Yes, of course it did
Campaign finance law:
1. A campaign donation (the investigation) from a foreign nation
2. Using federal aid money for his own campaign (as leverage for 1)
If Biden weren’t a political figure, he might also have civil standing for damages, but for good reason we’re allowed to say and write really awful things about politicians
Mostly this is the same shit he’s already done and not been held accountable for, so the country is already desensitized and their pivot to “I did it and it was awesome” signals we should expect far more of this very openly for the next many months
but it's Biden so the opportunity will likely be inadvertently squandered or flubbed
pleasepaypreacher.net
In addition the the campaign finance laws mentioned above, direct bribery of a foreign government or official is also just straight up illegal.
Its a fine line (we give countries money for international policy purposes all the time). However, I am pretty sure “We will give you xxx billion dollars in aid in exchange for opening a criminal investigation on a private US citizen” is way over it.
I can't find anything on is the FCPA can be applied to government officials Its a tough needle to thread.
FCPA applies to all US citizens, not just businesses.
Hahahaha you think trump would offer money.
More likely he said something along the lines of "If you don't do it putin will destroy you."
Supposedly he specifically offered them government aid in exchange for the investigation.
Assuming this his true he has two ways out:
1. As a federal official he can obtain an exemption from the FCPA for intelligence work provided he has submitted a report in writing about the reasoning behind the payment in question to the House and Senate intelligence committees.
2. He can prove that the Ukraine was going to do the investigation anyway as a routine governmental function and he was just paying to facilitate or speed it (this is supposed to apply for example to “rush fees” for construction permits an the like, it might fly but it would be totally different from the way that the exception is generally used).
That's not entirely fair. It's also because the Democratic leadership are idiots.
Or cowards.
But you say tomato and I also say tomato because who in the hell says to-mah-to anyhow?
Anyhow, they’re either cowards, idiots, or both if they let Trump get away with this. They sit there, praying to the election dragon that Trump won’t get elected just so they can toss all this down the memory hole and “move on as a country” or some such bullshit. Then they’ll be totally shocked at why turnout for 2022 is down.
Fucking idiots.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Vox Reporter
And by 'this' I of course mean laundering GOP ratfucking into the respectable press.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Edit: Allow me to clarify. I mean the air and missile defense part. Deployment of those elements (along with their support) are not at all uncommon in a response like this and amounts to little more than saber rattling, if it stops there.
Air defense does jack shit by itself. The only way it’ll do anything is if Iran or some other actor does actually fly into the area.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Shouldn’t we be defending against the people that actually blew them up tho
See: 2001
lol, Never Forget.
The problem being that the US president is an unstable mess who very recently ordered an attack on Iran and then got cold feet at the last second, so now the Iranian government is trying to assess how much they can punish the US without provoking a significant response because they (mostly correctly) assume he's a pushover, so the risk of miscalculation leading to rapid escalation is about as high as it could possibly be.
Ed: which is to say that with a "normal" president and a "normal" NSC, I'd agree that this move alone isn't a huge risk. Although I'd be more worried about a deliberate provocation from US forces in that case, I'm 100x more worried about accidents in this one.
America can be led around by the nose and used as a weapon by any tinpot dictator with a skill in flattery. I wonder how much all those conservative young men in the Armed Forces will enjoy dying for Prince Bin Salman's big money bags.
Mainstream media has been centering all language on Iran proper, since around Tuesday afternoon. All mention of the Houthis or Yemen in general has been dropped by the wayside so they can bang the yellow journalism drum.
Remember the Maine!
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Treason. Biden is his expected opponent in an election. He is trying to use American power and assets to interfere in the next election.
I know this probably doesn't fit the textbook definition of treason. If so, let's change the definition to include this.
I am not even saying they wouldn’t get the votes cause I heard at least one Dem say they were allowed to view the evidence whether it was Iran in secure viewing room and the Dem said it was pretty conclusive.
Defining treason narrowly in the constitution is one of the few things I think they did right.
Treason is usually a "political" crime, in the sense that treason had been mostly defined throughout history as "anything that the king abhors". I'm not interested in giving a hand to anyone who would abuse treason statutes. We have election laws and anti corruption statutes. To the extent they are insufficient we should strengthen them, not abandon them in favor of expanding the definition of Treason.
House Intel, Oversight, and Foreign Affairs chairs send a joint letter to the White House requesting all records going back to January 2017 on: Rudy, Ukraine investigations, Ukraine defense aid, the July 25 phone call, and a transcript of that phone call; after laying out the funny story they'd heard about [all of this stuff we're hearing about now].
(Edit: Text version https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/2019/9/three-house-committees-launch-wide-ranging-investigation-into-trump-giuliani-ukraine-scheme )
(Worth a read; it's a little comforting to know how much they already know despite the DNI's best efforts)
Wednesday, Sept 11th:
The White House stands down and allows aid to go to Ukraine.
https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/09/12/white-house-releases-250-million-in-ukraine-military-aid/
I think the relative timing of this has already been mentioned, but what struck me were the dates.
You can't return the cash the same day you get accused of taking it. Too obvious. You wait until everyone is supposed to be at the big event and slip it under the door. Except when it's 250 million dollars and a dozen people were going to see you renting the forklift.
Smells like panic.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Nah. That's just winning.
Do not engage the Watermelons.