[Anthem] Death from Above ! and Sideways ! sometimes even from Below !

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  • PapaganderPapagander Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nah, limited jet pack was one of the few good decisions they made with this game.

    is this like a joke post?

    The feeling of the flying was always super enjoyable in Athem, one of the things they nailed. but making it limited, what in the world, why take something fun and then make you stop having fun.

    like, i get both sides of the argument. The big difference is I don't need pointless game mechanics to tell me to skim lakes, divebomb out of the seemingly open and empty sky, or kiss waterfalls. Just without the stupid mechanics, I'd be doing it because it's fun!

    edit: also, i'd be doing it because who know where they hid that last lore bit or sigil, etc. but mostly fun!

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  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    I actively like the limiter. Out of combat, it's effectively irrelevant, as the amount of times one needs to land are... Maybe once, twice, bouncing between missions waypoints? It feels better, and again, I am engaging with the world in a way I wouldn't if I could just fly everywhere.

    Edit: Some things are more fun if you can't do them constantly. Cookies are better if you don't eat nothing but cookies. If you ate nothing but salty delicious chips, they'd stop tasting as delicious. Ice cream forever is boring and brain freezy.

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    dporowski wrote: »
    I actively like the limiter. Out of combat, it's effectively irrelevant, as the amount of times one needs to land are... Maybe once, twice, bouncing between missions waypoints? It feels better, and again, I am engaging with the world in a way I wouldn't if I could just fly everywhere.

    Edit: Some things are more fun if you can't do them constantly. Cookies are better if you don't eat nothing but cookies. If you ate nothing but salty delicious chips, they'd stop tasting as delicious. Ice cream forever is boring and brain freezy.

    you're comparing consumption of sugary sweets to a dumb mechanic where to fly anywhere far you have to take breaks to recharge and then fly again, interrupting the flow, and making the game less fun.

    OK!

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  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    I actively like the limiter. Out of combat, it's effectively irrelevant, as the amount of times one needs to land are... Maybe once, twice, bouncing between missions waypoints? It feels better, and again, I am engaging with the world in a way I wouldn't if I could just fly everywhere.

    Edit: Some things are more fun if you can't do them constantly. Cookies are better if you don't eat nothing but cookies. If you ate nothing but salty delicious chips, they'd stop tasting as delicious. Ice cream forever is boring and brain freezy.

    you're comparing consumption of sugary sweets to a dumb mechanic where to fly anywhere far you have to take breaks to recharge and then fly again, interrupting the flow, and making the game less fun.

    OK!

    I honestly take breaks from flying normally. But, then again, I'm afflicted by Ooo-a-piece-of-candy-itis: If I see something that I can harvest or interact with, I'll beeline for it...almost regardless of what it is.

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I dunno, it's a good question. Is reloading fun in a shooting game? It depends on how it's done. It's great in Gears of War where it's a skill mechanic that you can master. It's great in Devil May Cry with Nero when you rev your sword (call that prep rather than reload per se). It can be fun in certain games when you can reload cancel to get more out of certain gear. Doom shows another path where you just... don't do that. And that's fun too.

    I think in concept managing your engine could be fun. It's like how Spider-Man games that have some play around physics are much more fun than ones where you have no limits at all and can web onto open sky. Did they nail the execution? Eh... I tend to say no for Anthem in almost every case.

  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    I actively like the limiter. Out of combat, it's effectively irrelevant, as the amount of times one needs to land are... Maybe once, twice, bouncing between missions waypoints? It feels better, and again, I am engaging with the world in a way I wouldn't if I could just fly everywhere.

    Edit: Some things are more fun if you can't do them constantly. Cookies are better if you don't eat nothing but cookies. If you ate nothing but salty delicious chips, they'd stop tasting as delicious. Ice cream forever is boring and brain freezy.

    you're comparing consumption of sugary sweets to a dumb mechanic where to fly anywhere far you have to take breaks to recharge and then fly again, interrupting the flow, and making the game less fun.

    OK!

    It's an analogy! :p Come on!

    Spiderman is a better one I think, with the web swinging and physics and all. I will agree that there could be more opportunity for managing heat and how that goes (geysers? clouds?), but I will stand by my position, just like I'd stand by webbing onto things, not just like, sky.

  • PapaganderPapagander Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    Everyone wants different levels of immersion, I'm not gonna tell anyone how to have their fun. Some people like to pick apart physics, and some just want to swing.

    For me, the mechanic is stupid outside of combat, but maybe that's because ever since wow i just love flying in any games. I'd love just flying on auto way above, looking down at things and making the choice to interact with the world when I see something interesting.

    The mechanics of Flight in Anthem were actually occasionally distracting to me. It was less about analyzing the world around me and more about fast-scanning because I knew I wasn't allowed to make it where I wanted in one go. It's probably an even toss if I found more things from accidental landings then I missed things because I was pushing for that waterfall and not checking out my surroundings. It did get more fun as I memorized the world around me, but then it felt a bit less like true flying freedom and more like flying lanes.

    I can see both sides of the cookie and Spiderman analogies too. I guess I just come down on the side of: if I want cookies/swinging, I go to a cookie/spiderman game. Why limit my cookies/swinging if I'm coming to this game for it?

    Edit: Like, juxtapositions and limitations can make great points. Those five minutes of Spiderman:Homecoming with the park where he's forced to run after the van are hilarious. But it's a Spider-man movie. If there was more than five minutes of it, it would've been counter-productive and boring. give me a level in the Spiderman game where I lose swinging for a good reason like an open park with limited trees. Don't make half my game about it.

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  • PapaganderPapagander Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    Sorry for double post, but this thread has got me all excited about Anthem again lol.

    Speaking about 'flying lanes', i'd have been real happy if they'd implemented between x and y elevation you fly freely due to colder air or some horseturds. Go higher and freeze up, requiring a button matching minigame to re-ignite boosters or crash land and stun for Z amount of time. Fly lower then free lane and deal with the heating issues.

    Edit: see, i wish-wash between free and limited, but with options. Mix of reasonable immersion and wanting flight freedom.

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  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Papagander wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nah, limited jet pack was one of the few good decisions they made with this game.

    is this like a joke post?

    The feeling of the flying was always super enjoyable in Athem, one of the things they nailed. but making it limited, what in the world, why take something fun and then make you stop having fun.

    like, i get both sides of the argument. The big difference is I don't need pointless game mechanics to tell me to skim lakes, divebomb out of the seemingly open and empty sky, or kiss waterfalls. Just without the stupid mechanics, I'd be doing it because it's fun!

    edit: also, i'd be doing it because who know where they hid that last lore bit or sigil, etc. but mostly fun!

    Maybe, but I would bet money people would eventually start skipping all that stuff just to uneventfully fly A to B. People say they want unlimited X thing, but then when it's given to them it becomes mundane and a chore (why do I have to fly everywhere!? just give me a fast travel!).

    The flying mechanic felt like something you could master, can't really say that about the rest of the ho-hum experience, which is why it feels good to me.

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  • ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    Regarding the announcement, it's nice to see that they're still committed to it. But I have to admit, the wording and size of the team has me decently concerned about how they're going to exit this "incubation" period they're referring to. From the way they're couching the language, they're talking about some major, fundamental changes to how Anthem plays and how quests, loot, etc. will be handled. That speaks to a major amount of work for a system that was already unwieldy and giving them problems to begin with. (And dice is probably not going to help them with Frostbite given that they're neck deep in the next battlefield game)

    That then leads to needing a sizeable team to get this done if they want it done in any reasonable amount of time. Is ea/bioware going to bankroll something like that? I mean from ea's perspective, it's potentially another liveservice cash stream now that they've axed Battlefield and Battlefront until at least the next gen and FIFA is running on thin ice with the loot boxes, but somehow I can't help but feel this game is going to be monetized to hell and back if they ever do actually get it off the ground to recoup the development costs. With Bioware after this and Andromeda's flops I can't help but imagine they're bunkering down hard on Dragon Age 4's development given the total restart of its development and desperation to score a "hit" both critically and financially. I just don't see how they can manage the resources necessary for both of these projects without either spooling up huge amounts of hires, or outsourcing it to a 3rd party studio, which brings its own sorts of problems.

    And either way, will anyone even care enough to go back to it if they do manage to bring it back? I'd imagine nothing short of a FF14 revival would be enough to get people to start heavily playing again given the overall backlash this game developed.

  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    Regarding the announcement, it's nice to see that they're still committed to it. But I have to admit, the wording and size of the team has me decently concerned about how they're going to exit this "incubation" period they're referring to. From the way they're couching the language, they're talking about some major, fundamental changes to how Anthem plays and how quests, loot, etc. will be handled. That speaks to a major amount of work for a system that was already unwieldy and giving them problems to begin with. (And dice is probably not going to help them with Frostbite given that they're neck deep in the next battlefield game)

    That then leads to needing a sizeable team to get this done if they want it done in any reasonable amount of time. Is ea/bioware going to bankroll something like that? I mean from ea's perspective, it's potentially another liveservice cash stream now that they've axed Battlefield and Battlefront until at least the next gen and FIFA is running on thin ice with the loot boxes, but somehow I can't help but feel this game is going to be monetized to hell and back if they ever do actually get it off the ground to recoup the development costs. With Bioware after this and Andromeda's flops I can't help but imagine they're bunkering down hard on Dragon Age 4's development given the total restart of its development and desperation to score a "hit" both critically and financially. I just don't see how they can manage the resources necessary for both of these projects without either spooling up huge amounts of hires, or outsourcing it to a 3rd party studio, which brings its own sorts of problems.

    And either way, will anyone even care enough to go back to it if they do manage to bring it back? I'd imagine nothing short of a FF14 revival would be enough to get people to start heavily playing again given the overall backlash this game developed.

    Me. I'll totally go back and give it a whirl. I already liked the gameplay flow and how my Interceptor plays out, so if they give the game more meat on there to chew through, I'll be happy as a clam.

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    If they make the new version free to owners of the previous version, they won't earn any money from their most dedicated players. So that would be terrible for them. But if they charge for it, their most loyal fans could feel betrayed enough to not want to be fans anymore and they could splinter that group. This would be why it is a good idea to not screw up your first swing at a new IP...

  • Trajan45Trajan45 Registered User regular
    It's far too soon to really say one way or another. It's entirely possible that EA pulls the plug after 6 months. I'd imagine the 30 person incubation team is going to come up with a list of requirements for how to "relaunch" Anthem. Part of that is going to be technical, part of it will probably be content, and part laying the foundation for the on going live service. If EA like the direction, I'm sure the team will expand to do the work.

    For cost, if they're smart, they'll do what Blizzard did and lead with a large DLC or expansion at the same time as this re-work. That way the folks currently playing who have to pay again, would feel like they are getting something new other than tweaks and upgrades.

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  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    Papagander wrote: »
    Everyone wants different levels of immersion, I'm not gonna tell anyone how to have their fun. Some people like to pick apart physics, and some just want to swing.

    For me, the mechanic is stupid outside of combat, but maybe that's because ever since wow i just love flying in any games. I'd love just flying on auto way above, looking down at things and making the choice to interact with the world when I see something interesting.

    The mechanics of Flight in Anthem were actually occasionally distracting to me. It was less about analyzing the world around me and more about fast-scanning because I knew I wasn't allowed to make it where I wanted in one go. It's probably an even toss if I found more things from accidental landings then I missed things because I was pushing for that waterfall and not checking out my surroundings. It did get more fun as I memorized the world around me, but then it felt a bit less like true flying freedom and more like flying lanes.

    I can see both sides of the cookie and Spiderman analogies too. I guess I just come down on the side of: if I want cookies/swinging, I go to a cookie/spiderman game. Why limit my cookies/swinging if I'm coming to this game for it?

    Edit: Like, juxtapositions and limitations can make great points. Those five minutes of Spiderman:Homecoming with the park where he's forced to run after the van are hilarious. But it's a Spider-man movie. If there was more than five minutes of it, it would've been counter-productive and boring. give me a level in the Spiderman game where I lose swinging for a good reason like an open park with limited trees. Don't make half my game about it.

    WoW is actually what soured me on that type of flying. It's just fly to one icon on the map, kill something, mount up and fly to the next. It was somewhat interesting in BC due to the novelty and the fact that the fast ground mount was faster than basic flying so depending on where you were going it was a choice on which mount to use.

    Anthem could use more interactive mechanics to help you manage, maybe also drastically reduce heat generated when not boosting, but I still really like interacting with the system.

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    limiting the jetpack is good because it makes you think about how you use it and thinking is fun

    I think they coulda maybe been more artful about how they limited it; like maybe it should share resource/cooldown with your active abilities somehow, or maybe their coulda been like, an infinite flight mode that disabled attacks or something

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  • MassenaMassena Registered User regular
    The toughest part about Anthem to me was that the story/characters were such a joke. I remember the gameplay (until the higher levels) was fun if slightly buggy. In fact, I kind of bogged down somewhere along the line, this is probably worth circling back to.

  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    Massena wrote: »
    The toughest part about Anthem to me was that the story/characters were such a joke. I remember the gameplay (until the higher levels) was fun if slightly buggy. In fact, I kind of bogged down somewhere along the line, this is probably worth circling back to.

    I actually enjoyed a lot of the world building in Anthem, especially outside of the main storyline; there were some really interesting/tragic stories to be told if you talked to everyone in town periodically.

    The limited flight discussion reminds me a lot of debates over inventory management systems; some people find managing constraints to be interesting gameplay, others find it incredibly annoying. Opinions, right? :)

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I have literally never heard of someone in favor of carrying capacity or smaller vault space. I've heard of "there should be less trash items cluttering my inventory" but NEVER "it's good that I can only carry 9 items like this." Never.

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  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    I have literally never heard of someone in favor of carrying capacity or smaller vault space. I've heard of "there should be less trash items cluttering my inventory" but NEVER "it's good that I can only carry 9 items like this." Never.



    He's talked about it on a couple podcasts too, but he makes (I think) a pretty compelling case for limitations forcing decision making in ways that some people find engaging (and obviously others really don't). He talks about it with respect to Dragon's Dogma a lot in how weight limits make you think a lot more critically about what you need to take with you. Inventory limitations in ARPGs force you to make decisions about what you pick up and what you leave on the ground. It's not something everyone enjoys but there are definitely people who appreciate it from a design perspective.

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    People's natural tendency in ARPGs is loot all. When inventory limits are pressed hard, many people's response is to just mod it out. Speaking personally, menuing in ARPGs to pick over trash loot is one of the worst parts of the game, which makes this guy my natural enemy.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Massena wrote: »
    The toughest part about Anthem to me was that the story/characters were such a joke. I remember the gameplay (until the higher levels) was fun if slightly buggy. In fact, I kind of bogged down somewhere along the line, this is probably worth circling back to.

    I actually enjoyed a lot of the world building in Anthem, especially outside of the main storyline; there were some really interesting/tragic stories to be told if you talked to everyone in town periodically.

    The limited flight discussion reminds me a lot of debates over inventory management systems; some people find managing constraints to be interesting gameplay, others find it incredibly annoying. Opinions, right? :)

    The problem was that all characters were 17 year old teenagers, something that plagued Andromeda also

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    if a game is going to have an inventory at all it should be used to introduce tradeoffs (i.e. limited space); if you're not going to use it that way there's little reason to even have an 'inventory' in the traditional sense

    of course, by the same token any item you can pick up should have some potential use. There are (still, somehow) lots of games that masquerade systems that should properly be automated as 'inventory management'

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  • ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    People's natural tendency in ARPGs is loot all. When inventory limits are pressed hard, many people's response is to just mod it out. Speaking personally, menuing in ARPGs to pick over trash loot is one of the worst parts of the game, which makes this guy my natural enemy.

    100% this. Especially if the game has a Junk-to-Something Useful crafting mechanic like fallout games. Inventory management in games like those with the weight limits absolutely infuriate me and if there's an option to mod out the weight limit, i'm going to do it in a heartbeat.

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Personally, I *can* appreciate limitations.

    Example, an RPG with carrying capacity limits. I'm about to journey off to an unexplored area, I need to bring supplies with me (healing, mana potions, scrolls, rations, arrows or other ammunition, etc), but I also want to travel light, in case I find something of value and wish to bring it back with me (or throw it into the inventory and either craft with it or sell it later).

    There are absolutely games that go too far with this, where 'greys' or 'vendor trash' or whatever drown out the good for all of the shit you have to wade through.

    I'm not saying it should be in every game, or even necessarily in Anthem. Just I have played games (table top RPGs and computer/console games alike) where the limitations were something I didn't mind, or even appreciated, under the right circumstances.

    Like playing a table top skirmish game. If it's for 100 points, everyone puts their whole collection on the table at once! If it's for 20 points, yikes, okay, going to have to focus and prioritize and weigh out what I really feel is necessary to best utilize the terrain and what I know of the opposing forces. Both sizes of game (and those in between) can all be fun, and will appeal to different players in different ways. I don't feel it's an objectively better or worse thing (unless we only have 2 hours to play in which case hold off on the army level Theater of Conflict and start picking your 20 points worth of troops...)

    Just trying to say, working within limitations isn't inherently bad, but I respect that others don't feel this way. I'm not trying to tell them otherwise, simply presenting a viewpoint they don't seem to understand.

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    A good limitation: You can only use this ability a few times before it has to recharge. Your best weapon runs off limited ammo, so don't fire it at the weakest enemies.
    An annoying limitation: The game is dropping both good loot and trash loot that you're intended to sell for spending money and also crafting materials that you'll never know which ones you'll need for the next thing. You can carry... some of it. You have no idea what's coming up next and it will disappear when you leave so... have fun picking which to grab! How is this fun? Which part of it is the fun part? Is it breaking up the flow of the dungeon to go through the stats of loot mid-mission so that you don't accidentally miss a super good drop in a hurry to... play the game you're trying to play? Is it doing that latter thing in a co-op setting where your team has already left you in the dust and you're missing combat RIGHT NOW while you're thinking about this?

  • BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    I respect the idea that limiting the in-transit flight breaks the pace for those who aren't able to sustain their flight (even though in most practical instances I've played missions it might happen like... once or twice between encounters) or places undue stress, but I felt this was presented to the thread in this conversation as "game makes fun thing less frequent, game should make fun thing always happen" which to me seemed like a bit of a lizard-brain take

    I do think making it longer in-between non-combat or enemy proximity-based would ease that stress though, but again modifiers already exist in the game (both environmentally and javelin customization) that will alleviate all of this. I'd like to see fine-tuning rather than fundamental change.

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