I'm pretty sure Mueller would indict regardless of whether or not he thought a pardon was coming. It's not really his job to navigate potential future abuses of the justice system.
I'm pretty sure Mueller would indict regardless of whether or not he thought a pardon was coming. It's not really his job to navigate potential future abuses of the justice system.
Yeah that’s a concise way to make the point I was trying to make. Mueller likely wouldn’t act in anticipation of a pardon. He’d act by the book and let the cards lay as they fall.
Which is still kind of silly, since we know virtually nothing.
I guess the one factoid is that the Trump kids are not going to be immediately eating indictments for anything related to Russia. But that's the only information we have now that we didn't basically know a day ago.
That is not a small thing.
Mueller could have recommended that the best approach is to remove Trump from office before prosecuting the fruit of his loins. We just have no idea.
He could also refer any criminal charges / findings to SDNY or another court no? One that prevents any chance of a pardon?
SDNY is federal, not state, so that wouldn't be a reason. He could not charge them because there's no evidence or not enough of a crime, or refer them to SDNY because it's not within the scope of his investigation. The pardon would never enter into it.
Every journalist that was skeptical of Russiagate since the beginning (and got fusilated by it on this forum, let's not forget that) is now feeling incredibly vindicated:
EDIT: Taibbi is particularly biting since it particularly focuses on the point that the Steele dossier (the center of all of this) was always a stupid bullshit fairytale pushed by the press:
For years, every hint the dossier might be true became a banner headline, while every time doubt was cast on Steele’s revelations, the press was quiet. Washington Post reporter Greg Miller went to Prague and led a team looking for evidence Cohen had been there. Post reporters, Miller said, “literally spent weeks and months trying to run down” the Cohen story.
“We sent reporters through every hotel in Prague, through all over the place, just to try to figure out if he was ever there,” he said, “and came away empty.”
This was heads-I-win, tails-you-lose reporting. One assumes if Miller found Cohen’s name in a hotel ledger, it would have been on page 1 of the Post. The converse didn’t get a mention in Miller’s own paper. He only told the story during a discussion aired by C-SPAN about a new book he’d published. Only The Daily Caller and a few conservative blogs picked it up.
Except their argument has changed monumentally from two years ago when it was "Russia didn't do anything." Now the standard is "Mueller didn't charge any Americans for collaborating, except the ones he did."
Fuck them and their assumptions.
EDIT: The Steele dossier was never the center of this. The ties between the Trump organization and Russian elements were clear far before that was leaked. The Greenwald/Tracey theory of this whole event is so mind bogglingly stupid that no one should even pretend to think they were rational about it. Their goal is the destruction of the Democratic Party, not anything resembling the truth.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
That Taibbi quote is dumb.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I imagine if they found an alibi for Cohen not being in Prague that the papers would have reported that.
But running down a dead end in any story is never going to be reported.
I imagine if they found an alibi for Cohen not being in Prague that the papers would have reported that.
But running down a dead end in any story is never going to be reported.
I don't think anyone is still trying to run with that Prague story as evidence of anything.
Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's former personal lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen said under oath Wednesday that he had never traveled to Prague to collude with Russian officials in 2016, denying a key claim of the infamous "dossier" that alleged a conspiracy between Trump and the Kremlin.
His comments during a marathon House Oversight Committee hearing were his first public denial under oath, meaning he could be prosecuted for perjury if he was not telling the truth.
"I've never been to Prague. ... I've never been to the Czech Republic," Cohen told lawmakers.
Cohen has denied the allegation from the very beginning. CNN did not publish the unverified intelligence memos compiled by a retired British spy but was first to report in January 2017 that the documents were being circulated among US intelligence agencies.
When I say we're not doing something, I'm not inviting you to edit your existing posts to expand them with more words because you think that's clever. When I say stop talking about something, I'm not inviting to playing stupid rule lawyery games with me.
It's a wellspring for 'kompromat' speculation. Like when Pelosi asked what Putin had on Trump earlier this year. That's the type of theorizing undercutting the case against Trump, and it allows him to label actual issues, like the DNC email hacking, as an extension of pee tape nonsense. The type of speculation that was rewarded with undue attention for everyone peddling it over the last 2+ years, and makes whatever Mueller finds seem like a letdown.
It's a wellspring for 'kompromat' speculation. Like when Pelosi asked what Putin had on Trump earlier this year. That's the type of theorizing undercutting the case against Trump, and it allows him to label actual issues, like the DNC email hacking, as an extension of pee tape nonsense. The type of speculation that was rewarded with undue attention for everyone peddling it over the last 2+ years, and makes whatever Mueller finds seem like a letdown.
I think that's more because he keeps acting like Putin has something on him. He's weirdly deferential.
Granted Trump has a dictator fetish, so it could just be that.
It's a wellspring for 'kompromat' speculation. Like when Pelosi asked what Putin had on Trump earlier this year. That's the type of theorizing undercutting the case against Trump, and it allows him to label actual issues, like the DNC email hacking, as an extension of pee tape nonsense. The type of speculation that was rewarded with undue attention for everyone peddling it over the last 2+ years, and makes whatever Mueller finds seem like a letdown.
I think that's more because he keeps acting like Putin has something on him. He's weirdly deferential.
Granted Trump has a dictator fetish, so it could just be that.
He does not criticise anybody he feels is better than him.
Or maybe he does have a dictator fetish. Or any other number of things that make him weirdly deferential. And it's still also possible Putin has something on him. Frankly, Pelosi may not even have been serious when asking such a question. It's a common rhetorical question people may ask whenever somebody makes a choice or takes an action that seems either out of character or just out of place at the time. The President of the United States is weirdly deferential to the leader of a (several?) foreign nation. How could that not be a question to ask? Even if only to lighten the mood.
Trump’s “fortune” such as it is was built on Russian loans.
It would be more accurate to say trump's fortune is sustained by it; Between the time when he left home with a million dollars and the late 80's wherein his casinos went bankrupt and every major investment bank in the US black listed him there was a point where he was making money in the real estate market. Now granted: he had serious ethical issues involving discrimination, contract violation and leaving fellow investors holding the bill that helped, but he did in fact build and/or renovate a fair ammount of property that made him a model 80's playboy.
Trump’s “fortune” such as it is was built on Russian loans.
It would be more accurate to say trump's fortune is sustained by it; Between the time when he left home with a million dollars and the late 80's wherein his casinos went bankrupt and every major investment bank in the US black listed him there was a point where he was making money in the real estate market. Now granted: he had serious ethical issues involving discrimination, contract violation and leaving fellow investors holding the bill that helped, but he did in fact build and/or renovate a fair ammount of property that made him a model 80's playboy.
Fact is the Mueller investigation and case DOES NOT RELY ON THE DOSSIER. It never did. The FBI has a Co-intel operation on Russian influence going without it. Mueller got appointed because Trump's firing of Comey to protect Flynn made it obvious the usual channels wouldn't work
As we talk about the lack of indictments coming from the report, and people kowtowing to a DOJ memo from the 70's. I find it so hard to believe that an institution that pulls meaning from a 250 year old document and holds it in such reverence would give any credence to a "memo" written a mere 46 years ago. I mean since when do pieces of paper coming out of the DOJ = law in this country? That sure would give the secretary who types these things up for her boss a whole lot of power.
As we talk about the lack of indictments coming from the report, and people kowtowing to a DOJ memo from the 70's. I find it so hard to believe that an institution that pulls meaning from a 250 year old document and holds it in such reverence would give any credence to a "memo" written a mere 46 years ago. I mean since when do pieces of paper coming out of the DOJ = law in this country? That sure would give the secretary who types these things up for her boss a whole lot of power.
We follow 'norms' in absence of codified rules. The quicker we can agree on the 'rules', the quicker things can get done. And when somebody comes in and violates both codified rules and generally accepted norms, it takes a great deal of effort to maintain the higher ground.
Abandoning what was accepted just a few years ago in an effort to punish the person who abandoned it brings on more questions that will need to be answered. And history is full of people who abandoned principle in the pursuit of justice and then resisted giving up the power they gained in the process.
Emotional reactions require more a thoughtful consideration.
Rep. Schiff does say that other aspects of the investigation will be farmed out to other sections of the justice department.
Yeah, my hope is that Mueller saw "figure out what happened" as his primary objective and prosecution as a tool to achieve it. So, the lack of further indictments from the Special Counsel's Office just means that they feel their primary purpose has been fulfilled. With that done, the SCO is redundant for prosecution.
If anything, the as-yet-unindicted may yet take this as catastrophic news, as the release of the report means that no one will be interested in making a deal for what they know.
Trump’s “fortune” such as it is was built on Russian loans.
At least for a long time now it's been fairly obvious that the main hold the Russians have over Trump is that his business depends on dealings with them. Whether he wants something covered up or he just wants to keep making money laundering their money, it's all the same in terms of how compromised he is.
So in this time of uncertainty we can take solace in that there are some things that will never change. The sun still rises, the tides eb and flow, and Manafort continues to commit crimes.
Manafort or a close associate has, it appears, created a fake company to attempt to defraud the government out of 1 million dollars of forfeiture money.
Rep. Schiff does say that other aspects of the investigation will be farmed out to other sections of the justice department.
Yeah, my hope is that Mueller saw "figure out what happened" as his primary objective and prosecution as a tool to achieve it. So, the lack of further indictments from the Special Counsel's Office just means that they feel their primary purpose has been fulfilled. With that done, the SCO is redundant for prosecution.
If anything, the as-yet-unindicted may yet take this as catastrophic news, as the release of the report means that no one will be interested in making a deal for what they know.
I always thought the "Mueller as fact-finder" scenario made significantly more sense than the idea that he was going to just slowly roll up the ladder for years. The *pace* of it just didn't make sense.
I fully expect a damning report that portrays that President as corrupt and directly involved with numerous crimes and cover-ups. I'm not sure how much it will actually matter given that everyone already knows the President is corrupt and criminal, but every little bit helps I guess.
Trump broke his Twitter silence with his campaign slogan and then saying he’s having a great day. There’s something weird going on.
My guess is that they were tired of the proliferation of "It Has Been [Surprisingly Large Number] Hours Since Trump's Last Tweet" articles since a lot of them ask uncomfortable questions about what might have changed recently.
A couple especially content-free tweets and nothing else should really only exacerbate those concerns but at least it complicates the "radio silence" narrative.
I say this all as if it isn't glaringly obvious that the President is waiting for the report same as everyone else and unsure of how to spin it. He can go with his usual Mueller is a conflicted witchslayer routine but the lack of new indictments means he thinks it might exonerate him. Also, the fact that he's not saying it exonerates him (for once) means that, yup, he's definitely got some crimes he's worried about.
So in this time of uncertainty we can take solace in that there are some things that will never change. The sun still rises, the tides eb and flow, and Manafort continues to commit crimes.
Manafort or a close associate has, it appears, created a fake company to attempt to defraud the government out of 1 million dollars of forfeiture money.
I don't think the report will say anything good about Trump (or more specifically won't massage his ego and won't say "actions are not criminal", but might say "unable to prosecute / convict"). Trump will focus on anything negative, tweeting out "witch hunt!" and personal attacks against Mueller, Sessions, Clinton, and anyone else who he can remember
After a period of time - hours or days, his narrative will switch to "Totally exonerated" by the Mueller probe.
So in this time of uncertainty we can take solace in that there are some things that will never change. The sun still rises, the tides eb and flow, and Manafort continues to commit crimes.
Manafort or a close associate has, it appears, created a fake company to attempt to defraud the government out of 1 million dollars of forfeiture money.
Does this affect his sentencing/time in prison?
If they feel they can prove it rigorously enough to prosecute it would presumably be a new charge unrelated to existing ones. More likely they just say “haha nice try” and ban the “company” from enforcing leins on Manafort’s property.
Even if Mueller's report doesn't have enough to impeach or indict Trump (it probably does, just not enough for Republicans to give a shit about it), it will still be a massive political problem for Republicans. There's no way that report paints Trump and his team in a good light, even if it's not actionable. The Dem candidates will have a field day reading from Mueller's report if it's made public.
Republicans are absolutely terrified of the report.
Posts
Yeah that’s a concise way to make the point I was trying to make. Mueller likely wouldn’t act in anticipation of a pardon. He’d act by the book and let the cards lay as they fall.
SDNY is federal, not state, so that wouldn't be a reason. He could not charge them because there's no evidence or not enough of a crime, or refer them to SDNY because it's not within the scope of his investigation. The pardon would never enter into it.
EDIT: Taibbi is particularly biting since it particularly focuses on the point that the Steele dossier (the center of all of this) was always a stupid bullshit fairytale pushed by the press:
Fuck them and their assumptions.
EDIT: The Steele dossier was never the center of this. The ties between the Trump organization and Russian elements were clear far before that was leaked. The Greenwald/Tracey theory of this whole event is so mind bogglingly stupid that no one should even pretend to think they were rational about it. Their goal is the destruction of the Democratic Party, not anything resembling the truth.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I imagine if they found an alibi for Cohen not being in Prague that the papers would have reported that.
But running down a dead end in any story is never going to be reported.
I don't think anyone is still trying to run with that Prague story as evidence of anything.
Anyone who tells you it was is a liar
It's a wellspring for 'kompromat' speculation. Like when Pelosi asked what Putin had on Trump earlier this year. That's the type of theorizing undercutting the case against Trump, and it allows him to label actual issues, like the DNC email hacking, as an extension of pee tape nonsense. The type of speculation that was rewarded with undue attention for everyone peddling it over the last 2+ years, and makes whatever Mueller finds seem like a letdown.
I think that's more because he keeps acting like Putin has something on him. He's weirdly deferential.
Granted Trump has a dictator fetish, so it could just be that.
He does not criticise anybody he feels is better than him.
Or maybe he does have a dictator fetish. Or any other number of things that make him weirdly deferential. And it's still also possible Putin has something on him. Frankly, Pelosi may not even have been serious when asking such a question. It's a common rhetorical question people may ask whenever somebody makes a choice or takes an action that seems either out of character or just out of place at the time. The President of the United States is weirdly deferential to the leader of a (several?) foreign nation. How could that not be a question to ask? Even if only to lighten the mood.
It would be more accurate to say trump's fortune is sustained by it; Between the time when he left home with a million dollars and the late 80's wherein his casinos went bankrupt and every major investment bank in the US black listed him there was a point where he was making money in the real estate market. Now granted: he had serious ethical issues involving discrimination, contract violation and leaving fellow investors holding the bill that helped, but he did in fact build and/or renovate a fair ammount of property that made him a model 80's playboy.
... and let him **** 80's Playboy models.
Fact is the Mueller investigation and case DOES NOT RELY ON THE DOSSIER. It never did. The FBI has a Co-intel operation on Russian influence going without it. Mueller got appointed because Trump's firing of Comey to protect Flynn made it obvious the usual channels wouldn't work
Every time some bit of news could be said to back up the dossier a lot of ink and bytes were spent noting it.
This is obviously imo, but a lot of people lost their minds on this story.
Rep. Schiff does say that other aspects of the investigation will be farmed out to other sections of the justice department.
Like Manafort's other trial, presumably. Though how he'd know of anything else at this point..?
We follow 'norms' in absence of codified rules. The quicker we can agree on the 'rules', the quicker things can get done. And when somebody comes in and violates both codified rules and generally accepted norms, it takes a great deal of effort to maintain the higher ground.
Abandoning what was accepted just a few years ago in an effort to punish the person who abandoned it brings on more questions that will need to be answered. And history is full of people who abandoned principle in the pursuit of justice and then resisted giving up the power they gained in the process.
Emotional reactions require more a thoughtful consideration.
Yeah, my hope is that Mueller saw "figure out what happened" as his primary objective and prosecution as a tool to achieve it. So, the lack of further indictments from the Special Counsel's Office just means that they feel their primary purpose has been fulfilled. With that done, the SCO is redundant for prosecution.
If anything, the as-yet-unindicted may yet take this as catastrophic news, as the release of the report means that no one will be interested in making a deal for what they know.
At least for a long time now it's been fairly obvious that the main hold the Russians have over Trump is that his business depends on dealings with them. Whether he wants something covered up or he just wants to keep making money laundering their money, it's all the same in terms of how compromised he is.
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/23/politics/paul-manafort-million-dollars-forfeiture/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/
Manafort or a close associate has, it appears, created a fake company to attempt to defraud the government out of 1 million dollars of forfeiture money.
I always thought the "Mueller as fact-finder" scenario made significantly more sense than the idea that he was going to just slowly roll up the ladder for years. The *pace* of it just didn't make sense.
I fully expect a damning report that portrays that President as corrupt and directly involved with numerous crimes and cover-ups. I'm not sure how much it will actually matter given that everyone already knows the President is corrupt and criminal, but every little bit helps I guess.
someone stole his phone
My guess is that they were tired of the proliferation of "It Has Been [Surprisingly Large Number] Hours Since Trump's Last Tweet" articles since a lot of them ask uncomfortable questions about what might have changed recently.
A couple especially content-free tweets and nothing else should really only exacerbate those concerns but at least it complicates the "radio silence" narrative.
I say this all as if it isn't glaringly obvious that the President is waiting for the report same as everyone else and unsure of how to spin it. He can go with his usual Mueller is a conflicted witchslayer routine but the lack of new indictments means he thinks it might exonerate him. Also, the fact that he's not saying it exonerates him (for once) means that, yup, he's definitely got some crimes he's worried about.
Trump's underlying brand is "All politicians are corrupt, so let's be on a team and I'll be the best at being corrupt so our team wins."\
Being proven to be extremely corrupt but dodging the legal consequences *is* winning.
If Trump thought he won, he’d be gloating about it incessantly.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Does this affect his sentencing/time in prison?
Trump lies. There is no reason for him not to just proclaim victory like he does when Manafort isn't convicted for collusion.
Nunes does not want this thing to see the light of day. Again, anyone assuming they know what's in it is being dishonest or panicky for no reason.
After a period of time - hours or days, his narrative will switch to "Totally exonerated" by the Mueller probe.
If they feel they can prove it rigorously enough to prosecute it would presumably be a new charge unrelated to existing ones. More likely they just say “haha nice try” and ban the “company” from enforcing leins on Manafort’s property.
Republicans are absolutely terrified of the report.