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[Freedom Of Speech]: More Than The First Amendment

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Posts

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    You're saying Tencent is "representative" of the issue, despite all these other companies taking direction from the Chinese government without Tencent investing in them. Why are they singled out as representative, because they're a Chinese-based company? If so... how are they representative of, say, Disney, or Apple, or American Airlines, etc., all of whom have taken direction from the Chinese government and/or taken action of their own initiative because they knew that it would appease the Chinese government, because they wanted access to the Chinese market, not because they were being invested in by a Chinese-based company.

    They're being singled out because they're the specific player involved here because they're pretty much the entry point to China if you're going the tech route. There are other firms that serve a similar purpose for other industries. The three companies you mentioned are big/prominent enough that they can deal directly with the Chinese government, but most firms are going to pair with a local partner - and in video games, that's most likely going to be Tencent.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    You're saying Tencent is "representative" of the issue, despite all these other companies taking direction from the Chinese government without Tencent investing in them. Why are they singled out as representative, because they're a Chinese-based company? If so... how are they representative of, say, Disney, or Apple, or American Airlines, etc., all of whom have taken direction from the Chinese government and/or taken action of their own initiative because they knew that it would appease the Chinese government, because they wanted access to the Chinese market, not because they were being invested in by a Chinese-based company.

    Tencent has less of a choice than those other companies and, as Huawei has shown, they're also involved with the Chinese government.

    Article from March 2019 -

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2019/03/28/commentary/world-commentary/worried-huawei-take-closer-look-tencent/
    During the last month alone, several events have illustrated the trend and Tencent’s close relationship with the Chinese authorities. On March 2, Dutch hacker Victor Gevers revealed that the content of millions of conversations on Tencent applications among users at internet cafes are being relayed, along with the users’ identities, to police stations across China. Just three days later, the company’s founder and chief executive, Pony Ma, took his seat among 3,000 delegates to the National People’s Congress, the country’s rubber-stamp parliament. Ma reportedly raised the issue of data privacy even as security agencies were using data from his company’s applications to root out unauthorized religious activity.

    They're representative because they're not the only Chinese company investing in foreign (to China) companies and an example of the cash those companies you named are interested in taking and the Chinese government requires partnership with a Chinese company to do business in China.

    Hence, representative.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    I agree that Tencent has less of a choice than foreign companies, and as such I feel that those companies who are voluntarily involved with the Chinese government should be given greater scrutiny and held in greater contempt.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Companies are not people, Tencent is also voluntarily involved with the chinese government.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    FANTOMAS wrote: »
    Companies are not people, Tencent is also voluntarily involved with the chinese government.

    Sure, just like I voluntarily participate in a capitalist society.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Battlenet wouldn't let me use Krieghund, as it violated their terms and conditions. So, that really doesn't surprise me.

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Honestly, there really should be a push back against China here. There is the ethical end of things obviously. I also suspect that if people push back, they'll find that CCP will eventually concede and possibly admit how fucking stupid this idea is. On one hand, China kind of needs it's economy to stay good enough that people are a distraction, so neither a trade war or a huge spat over speech outside of China is going to be conducive to that. The other issue, is the whole stance is just really fucking stupid if you look at things from a sane governing perspective.

    1) If dissent is discouraged and met with severe penalties. It doesn't disappear it goes underground. Worse, since now getting caught will be met with severe punishment, well people will decide might as well go big or go home. So ironically, the very move probably ups the ante that someone does launch an uprising.

    2) This setup encourage group think and group think will ultimately fuck you over. Either no one is capable of realizing when a bad idea is bad or they keep their heads down if they know because it's better to stay quiet and let it blow up than speak out.

    3) This also means you're not likely to hear about issues, that you might actually want to solve or is something you don't care enough about to rock boats on, until it blows up in your fucking face.

    4) Finally, this also makes easier for corrupt officials operating independently more likely to either get away with something completely or get away with it long enough for it to blow up in your face. After all if dissent is met with a iron fist from the government, it's really easy for corrupt officials to pull shit and discourage others from speaking out by claiming it's the official position and that dissent will be met with consequences.

    Essentially, China's play is the same old shit that always goes south because all it's doing is bottling up a ton of discontent and that discontent will eventually exceed their ability to contain it. A ton of governments have tried this shit in the past and even now and it always leads to massive social unrest. It might not frequently sweep out government, but I think it almost always ruins their day.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    North Korea is the proof that you don't need a good economy or even meet basic human needs to maintain a totalitarian state.

    }
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  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    I imagine this kind of shit is quite annoying, but from what I can tell China's stance has mostly been working out for them. If we're talking about how it relates to "sane governing", I think you have to come up with a more robust argument for why it is counterproductive. I don't know of any instances of massive social unrest caused by suppression of free speech, let alone any governments being toppled by it. like, these protests aren't about free speech, that's just an issue that has come up for us.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    The NBA is still losing:
    At least five NBA teams are having their salary cap personnel plan for a scenario in which the cap for the 2020-21 season could drop between 10 and 15 percent due to the current situation between the NBA and China, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

    This is part of the teams’ regular seasonal planning, but "it's like the cap spike, but opposite,” a league source told Yahoo Sports. “After all the money everyone spent last summer, this would have a major impact on all of us."

    This is embarrassing. Everyday is another humiliation, another pro-Honk Kong protester getting kicked out of the stadium in the US (and of course that protest was done by right-wingers, is not the point), another day of getting bodied by the likes of Trump and Tucker Carlson, another day of reporters getting expelled from press conferences while "woke" athletes dodge under the table....only so that the CCP gets to laugh at their face and not transmit the regular games either in a few weeks.

    And the NBA walked on this on their own. This looks bad especially compared to Kaepernick, that was willing to tough it up despite getting blacklisted.

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    I did say, that the inevitable shit storm that arises from these setups doesn't always lead to the government using them completely collapsing. North Korea is pretty fucking pathetic and a large chunk of that is likely the resources they are pissing away on maintaining a setup where no one can hurt the ego of dear leader, which tends to allow a ton of other issues to fester. Last I checked, China was having issues of there own. No dissent is a fucking terrible practice because at the end of the day, it just leaves you weaker, since it allows a for a shit ton of problems to fester and creates new ones. Sure the state might have the resources to keep it from being a full blown rebellion, but that's resources that could have been put towards more productive endeavors. Not just state resources, but also resources of the citizens that are also largely wasted.

    Again, China ain't doing anything novel, tons of shit government have done this. A fair number shambled along, despite the peasant uprisings, but they weren't exactly strong countries after they got hit with enough of those.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    FANTOMAS wrote: »
    Companies are not people, Tencent is also voluntarily involved with the chinese government.

    Sure, just like I voluntarily participate in a capitalist society.

    You are not a company.

  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    edited October 16
    Julius wrote: »
    I imagine this kind of shit is quite annoying, but from what I can tell China's stance has mostly been working out for them. If we're talking about how it relates to "sane governing", I think you have to come up with a more robust argument for why it is counterproductive. I don't know of any instances of massive social unrest caused by suppression of free speech, let alone any governments being toppled by it. like, these protests aren't about free speech, that's just an issue that has come up for us.

    Uh

    who-was-the-tank-man-of-tiananmen-squares-featured-photo.jpg

    Monwyn on
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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »

    This is embarrassing. Everyday is another humiliation, another pro-Honk Kong protester getting kicked out of the stadium in the US (and of course that protest was done by right-wingers, is not the point), another day of getting bodied by the likes of Trump and Tucker Carlson, another day of reporters getting expelled from press conferences while "woke" athletes dodge under the table....only so that the CCP gets to laugh at their face and not transmit the regular games either in a few weeks.

    And the NBA walked on this on their own. This looks bad especially compared to Kaepernick, that was willing to tough it up despite getting blacklisted.
    The infuriating part of all of it to me is ESPN's role in trying to brush it under the table.

    Something really needs to be done.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »

    This is embarrassing. Everyday is another humiliation, another pro-Honk Kong protester getting kicked out of the stadium in the US (and of course that protest was done by right-wingers, is not the point), another day of getting bodied by the likes of Trump and Tucker Carlson, another day of reporters getting expelled from press conferences while "woke" athletes dodge under the table....only so that the CCP gets to laugh at their face and not transmit the regular games either in a few weeks.

    And the NBA walked on this on their own. This looks bad especially compared to Kaepernick, that was willing to tough it up despite getting blacklisted.
    The infuriating part of all of it to me is ESPN's role in trying to brush it under the table.

    Something really needs to be done.

    A large part of the problem is that normally, the US government would serve as the counterbalance to force US firms to push back and to press on China. But this time, well...

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Well, here's the source tweet from the university:



    Some people are arguing that they're trolling Stephens, but if they are, it's subtle.

    I have a follow up on this, and it is the most breathtakingly stupid thing ever:
    New York Times opinion columnist and man who thinks it’s deeply important to engage in open debate Bret Stephens has backed out of an upcoming scheduled event at George Washington University, where he was set to discuss civil discourse online with professor Dave Karpf. The discussion would have put a bow on a highly public back-and-forth Stephens instigated a month and a half ago, but at the last minute, Stephens insisted that the event be closed to the public. When Karpf disagreed, Stephens pulled out entirely.

    Yes, Stephens - the great advocate of open debate - demanded that hid debate at GWU should be closed to the public, and pulled out when the professor he was going to debate refused.

    I cannot make this shit up, on account of there not being enough drugs in the world to come up with this.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Well, here's the source tweet from the university:



    Some people are arguing that they're trolling Stephens, but if they are, it's subtle.

    I have a follow up on this, and it is the most breathtakingly stupid thing ever:
    New York Times opinion columnist and man who thinks it’s deeply important to engage in open debate Bret Stephens has backed out of an upcoming scheduled event at George Washington University, where he was set to discuss civil discourse online with professor Dave Karpf. The discussion would have put a bow on a highly public back-and-forth Stephens instigated a month and a half ago, but at the last minute, Stephens insisted that the event be closed to the public. When Karpf disagreed, Stephens pulled out entirely.

    Yes, Stephens - the great advocate of open debate - demanded that hid debate at GWU should be closed to the public, and pulled out when the professor he was going to debate refused.

    I cannot make this shit up, on account of there not being enough drugs in the world to come up with this.

    What this reveals is that, at the upper echelons of our society, polite notes that some underling transgressed against their betters and must be punished are normal and routine. Most people just aren’t lucky enough to have employers who resist.

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    Then is the offer to show up at his house and call him a bedbug in front of his family still on? Because that sounds way better than listening to him drone on about 'civility.'

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    And back to Blizzard, who seem determined to find that pony by jumping into yet another scandal:
    Ars Technica received word on Thursday that the "GAY BOYS" guild within the recent World of WarCraft Classic fork had its name changed late Wednesday to the machine-generated gibberish "Guild ZFXPK." An email, apparently sent by Blizzard Customer Service, indicated that the guild's name-change process began because "your fellow players reported your in-game name as inappropriate multiple times." From there, the email cites "a thorough investigation" that also led to the guild's creator receiving a temporary account suspension. The suspension was later overturned, but the guild's name remains "Guild ZFXPK."

    A cursory scan of existing WoW guilds shows another one named "GAY BOYS," which had a temporary name change in 2016, followed by a Blizzard forum thread asking why it had been changed. After acknowledging that general user forums weren't the place to properly dispute customer service issues, a WoW forum moderator offered some advice for choosing a new name: "Picking a name that you can identify with without also using words that would illicit [sic] a reaction from other players would be far more beneficial."

    A member of the guild affected this week says that he is not surprised about the new round of user complaints. In an emailed statement, "GAY BOYS" member Ahmil Jilani wrote:
    If you reviewed my chat logs, you would see multiple messages from individuals through my recruitment process of getting us to where we are today, with individuals messaging "Fuck the gays, reported," amongst other extremely hateful and discriminating comments... These are the individuals that find our name inappropriate. Giving in to their demands only means that you are siding with them as a company, which, after a decade of playing your games, is a surprise to me.

    I'd imagine the Blizzard PR is just shotgunning Pepto at this point.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    That article also has an update:
    Update, 12:58 p.m. ET: Blizzard still hasn't responded to Ars's questions, but the guild's original "GAY BOYS" name has since been reinstated, according to members of the guild. Jilani forwarded a screencap of Blizzard's latest customer service message to the guild, which begins, "I too would hate to lose my account if the account was caught up in something some [sic] thought was violating the TOS/EULA and got the guild renamed, and I'm bummed yours was."

    After confirming that the guild name should be back to normal and citing a "careful investigation of your account warning," the unnamed moderator made clear that this kind of automatic takedown may very well happen again: "There isn't a way to stop people from reporting this name, as some find the way the term is used offensive. If you get actioned again, you can appeal like this, and we can look at it once more. For now, though, you have your guild name back!"

    Is almost like automated moderation is terrible or something.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    That article also has an update:
    Update, 12:58 p.m. ET: Blizzard still hasn't responded to Ars's questions, but the guild's original "GAY BOYS" name has since been reinstated, according to members of the guild. Jilani forwarded a screencap of Blizzard's latest customer service message to the guild, which begins, "I too would hate to lose my account if the account was caught up in something some [sic] thought was violating the TOS/EULA and got the guild renamed, and I'm bummed yours was."

    After confirming that the guild name should be back to normal and citing a "careful investigation of your account warning," the unnamed moderator made clear that this kind of automatic takedown may very well happen again: "There isn't a way to stop people from reporting this name, as some find the way the term is used offensive. If you get actioned again, you can appeal like this, and we can look at it once more. For now, though, you have your guild name back!"

    That's a sign of bad management - if Blizzard PR was smart, they'd put a note on the guild record saying "Any person not associated with the PR team who alters this guild's name will be subject to disciplinary action up to and including termination."

    Also, fuck that moderator.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/11/20910127/riot-games-hong-kong-protests-statement
    Riot asks League of Legends players and casters to keep politics away from broadcasts

    League of Legends broadcasts aren’t the right venue for personal feelings about politics, according to Riot
    Riot Games says that pro players and casters participating in the 2019 League of Legends World Championships are not allowed to discuss “personal views on sensitive issues” during broadcasts, according to the company’s global head of esports.

    The global head of League of Legends esports, John Needham, said that casters and players have been told not to share “sensitive topics,” such as politics or religion, in a message posted to the LoL Esports Twitter account.

    “Our decision also reflects that we have Riot employees and fans in regions where there has been (or there is risk of) political and/or social unrest, including places like Hong Kong,” Needham says. “We believe we have a responsibility to do our best to ensure that statements or actions on our official platforms (intended or not) do not escalate potentially sensitive situations.”
    They could at least just admit they are scared of China rather than talking about "responsibility."

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/11/20910127/riot-games-hong-kong-protests-statement
    Riot asks League of Legends players and casters to keep politics away from broadcasts

    League of Legends broadcasts aren’t the right venue for personal feelings about politics, according to Riot
    Riot Games says that pro players and casters participating in the 2019 League of Legends World Championships are not allowed to discuss “personal views on sensitive issues” during broadcasts, according to the company’s global head of esports.

    The global head of League of Legends esports, John Needham, said that casters and players have been told not to share “sensitive topics,” such as politics or religion, in a message posted to the LoL Esports Twitter account.

    “Our decision also reflects that we have Riot employees and fans in regions where there has been (or there is risk of) political and/or social unrest, including places like Hong Kong,” Needham says. “We believe we have a responsibility to do our best to ensure that statements or actions on our official platforms (intended or not) do not escalate potentially sensitive situations.”
    They could at least just admit they are scared of China rather than talking about "responsibility."

    It's not just that they are scared - China literally owns their asses, as Riot is fully owned by Tencent.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    BTW, I remember a lot of "but the free market", "globalization is the future" and "you will lose your jobs to robots anyways, quit whining and learn to code" bullshit getting spewed when people first pointed out that Apple did iPhones using serf labor years ago.

    Hope that everybody that said that is fucking happy.

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  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    I imagine this kind of shit is quite annoying, but from what I can tell China's stance has mostly been working out for them. If we're talking about how it relates to "sane governing", I think you have to come up with a more robust argument for why it is counterproductive. I don't know of any instances of massive social unrest caused by suppression of free speech, let alone any governments being toppled by it. like, these protests aren't about free speech, that's just an issue that has come up for us.

    Uh

    B4JxjdCQ2qZc4pTS6

    I didn't mean it has never played a significant role, I'm just saying that it is never just about that. The Tianmen Square protests were also about lack of accountability for leaders, lack of democracy and intellectual oppression. Freedom of speech is needed to bring up these issues, and crucially there also a part of the liberal values that the protesters were advocating for, but that is not the same as being the cause.

    Suppression of speech is a catalyst for protests.

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    North Korea is the proof that you don't need a good economy or even meet basic human needs to maintain a totalitarian state.

    North Korea has an advantage over China, their poor have been poor for generations. China has a rising class, revolutions and political unrest comes when a rising class stops rising or worse, the dominant class tries to rein them in making them worse off on purpose.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited October 12
    From the WoW thread, Blizzard put an statement on Friday night and is basically the Adam Silver pro play.
    1. 6 month suspension for blitzchung and the casters instead of a year and fired respectively.
    2. blitzchung gets backs his money since Kotick got told by Legal how a lawsuit would go.

    We will see what happens, since this is the NBA play and it was disastrous for them, and Blizzcon is still less than a month away. Also:
    The specific views expressed by blitzchung were NOT a factor in the decision we made. I want to be clear: our relationships in China had no influence on our decision.

    Come on man, that's insulting people's intelligence.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    At this point, barring any major developments, BlizzCon is going to be a glorious dumpster fire, and I cannot wait to watch.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    At this point, barring any major developments, BlizzCon is going to be a glorious dumpster fire, and I cannot wait to watch.

    The past few years haven't been that great. I wouldn't be surprised if they pull the Q&A events to avoid further embarrassment.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    At this point, barring any major developments, BlizzCon is going to be a glorious dumpster fire, and I cannot wait to watch.

    The past few years haven't been that great. I wouldn't be surprised if they pull the Q&A events to avoid further embarrassment.

    As mistakes go, that would be up there. They need to take their lumps.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    As one of the comedians of my country said: "What pisses me off is not that they believe that we are suckers, is that they are fully convinced".

    That statement is dated Oct. 12. Gee, I wonder where it was written. The American players didn't got a 6 month suspension, so get the fuck out of here with that "no influence on our decision". Also, this comes Friday night to try to bury the scandal and then drop something positive early next week.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited October 12
    And now some people are questioning whether China helped write Blizzard's statement.



    e: There's a thread with comments. Not sure how valid, but just throwing this out there. Twitter is some rando.

    Jragghen on
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited October 12
    It's not a good look, but doesn't show quite what the poster concludes. It's pretty much the norm in entertainment to have a PRC native on the PR team tasked with keeping statements and products China-friendly. The intended result is that they don't need to have China write their statements for them, but for it to sound like they did anyway.

    Hevach on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 12
    So it either is official propaganda the word of the State, or someone deliberately imitating it as closely as possible.
    "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    And now some people are questioning whether China helped write Blizzard's statement.



    e: There's a thread with comments. Not sure how valid, but just throwing this out there. Twitter is some rando.

    There's also the fact that the statement was dated October 12th when it was still October 11th where Blizzard is based... but October 12th in mainland China.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited October 13
    That's something that comes up in conspiracy theories a lot: it's timestamped in GMT and displayed based on your local timezone setting. When not logged in its always in GMT.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Perhaps this was already posted, but the South Park episode "Made in China" was screened on Hong Kong's streets as part of the protest:
    As political tensions between Hong Kong protesters and the Chinese government grow, the animated comedy South Park once again finds itself at the heart of the conflict.

    In the wake of reports that China has outright banned all South Park content from the Internet, protesters have found other ways of disseminating the episode "Band in China." As spotted by The Hollywood Reporter, protesters in Hong Kong's Sham Shui Po district screened the episode to an impromptu but very appreciative crowd.

    While it's unknown who exactly organized the screening, THR writes, "the screening inspired considerable discussion on the online forums favored by the protest movement though. Many praised South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone as 'prophets,' and rare Western media figures willing to show 'strong backbone' in response to the Chinese government's efforts to stifle international free speech."

    And, as the South Park promotional account Tegridy Farms puts it:


    Those other guys? The NBA, Blizzard, etc? They ain't got no Tegridy.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular


    Clip is apparently the church scene from Kingsmen, which..."violent" is probably an understatement.

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