[Board Games] Cardboard Action at a Distance

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  • Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    @Mojo_Jojo agreed. I'm not against apps as a concept i just haven't seen many app games that looked likee they justified the apps existence. Alchemists is the one that comes to mind.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    sullijo wrote: »
    This raises an interesting question: as apps and other tech becomes more integrated into tabletop games, how much "future-proofing" should we expect from companies? Will the Return to Dark Tower people keep the app up-to-date as phones update their operating systems? Should they be expected to? Personally I'm much less likely to buy into a game knowing that at some point a critical component will likely not be accessible anymore.

    They said they'd release the app source if they are no longer able to support it. Which is about as good as it gets.

    Generally though, I've yet to see an app in a boardgame that seemed like it added anything and produced some exciting mixed media. Generally it's "we are bad at boardgame design" or "this should have probably been all digital"

    *Clings to his Dropmix over in the corner*

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  • antheremantherem Registered User regular
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    @Mojo_Jojo agreed. I'm not against apps as a concept i just haven't seen many app games that looked likee they justified the apps existence. Alchemists is the one that comes to mind.

    The Unlock games are an example of how to do app integration well. That said, for my money, I'm OK with app-required games even if all it does is, say, set up/shuffle/deal/maintain a bunch of decks of cards for me (i.e. Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition)

    tyrantula22
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    After experiencing the Fireball Island reboot, I have no faith in Restoration Games for restoring classics. They completely missed the point of Fireball Island as a tense "take that" race and turned it into some meandering fetch quest.

    Who knows if the same will happen to Dark Tower, but I aint venturing $125 to find out.

    JustTee
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited January 16
    antherem wrote: »
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    @Mojo_Jojo agreed. I'm not against apps as a concept i just haven't seen many app games that looked likee they justified the apps existence. Alchemists is the one that comes to mind.

    The Unlock games are an example of how to do app integration well. That said, for my money, I'm OK with app-required games even if all it does is, say, set up/shuffle/deal/maintain a bunch of decks of cards for me (i.e. Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition)

    Am I the only one who wishes they had at least included the option for a human to play the dungeon master like in MoM 1? Some basic understanding of the underlying mechanics is needed. If for nothing else than to give players an idea of how much time they have.

    Or at the very least an option to tweak the difficulty a little. I'm convinced that game is 90% unwinnable with 1-2 players.

    MrBody on
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    it sounds like the enemies just pull from a randomized deck of abilities why not just have a deck of ability cards.

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  • crimsoncoyotecrimsoncoyote Registered User regular
    I do like how they did the companion app for Imperial Assault, though the app came much later than the game.
    It's fun to play a completely coop version, especially when you have just 2 players (rather than one on one) or you have players that don't like the competitive nature against another person (i.e. my wife). It also has a good tutorial scenario, and above all, not required!

    antherem
  • tyrantula22tyrantula22 Registered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    sullijo wrote: »
    This raises an interesting question: as apps and other tech becomes more integrated into tabletop games, how much "future-proofing" should we expect from companies? Will the Return to Dark Tower people keep the app up-to-date as phones update their operating systems? Should they be expected to? Personally I'm much less likely to buy into a game knowing that at some point a critical component will likely not be accessible anymore.

    They said they'd release the app source if they are no longer able to support it. Which is about as good as it gets.

    Generally though, I've yet to see an app in a boardgame that seemed like it added anything and produced some exciting mixed media. Generally it's "we are bad at boardgame design" or "this should have probably been all digital"

    I definitely understand the concern around app based stuff in games. I'm fairly wary of it myself. Like you mentioned though, what they've said is about the best possible outcome with it you can get. They also use the same app for a few of their other games and it's nice to have. It basically takes the old "electronic" parts of some of the old games and makes it an app which is just a better way to maintain it.

    If you watch the playthrough they did with Dice Tower, the app seems pretty nice to me for what it does. It allows the tower to do things dynamically (through the app) and it can more readily keep at least a general idea of board state. It doesn't necessarily know exactly where every piece is, but it does know what's out there. Sure you could argue that they could have tried to build some sort of interface into the tower that made it so the app wasn't necessary but that would actually be worse in my opinion. With the app, they can quickly and easily update or fix anything that is found. Without the app it would need wifi added in and who knows what else. Basically it would probably make it a lot more expensive than it already is.

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    sullijo wrote: »
    This raises an interesting question: as apps and other tech becomes more integrated into tabletop games, how much "future-proofing" should we expect from companies? Will the Return to Dark Tower people keep the app up-to-date as phones update their operating systems? Should they be expected to? Personally I'm much less likely to buy into a game knowing that at some point a critical component will likely not be accessible anymore.

    They said they'd release the app source if they are no longer able to support it. Which is about as good as it gets.

    Generally though, I've yet to see an app in a boardgame that seemed like it added anything and produced some exciting mixed media. Generally it's "we are bad at boardgame design" or "this should have probably been all digital"

    I haven't actually played Mansions of Madness 2E since buying it but I played the 1st edition a few times. What I've heard about the app for the 2nd edition seems like a good use of an app, though I'm uncertain whether it's the required method of setup now or an alternative to using a book like in the 1st edition. I already bought it so it's not like I'll be expressing my discontent with my wallet but I'll be happier if the app is supplementary.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    sullijo wrote: »
    This raises an interesting question: as apps and other tech becomes more integrated into tabletop games, how much "future-proofing" should we expect from companies? Will the Return to Dark Tower people keep the app up-to-date as phones update their operating systems? Should they be expected to? Personally I'm much less likely to buy into a game knowing that at some point a critical component will likely not be accessible anymore.

    They said they'd release the app source if they are no longer able to support it. Which is about as good as it gets.

    Generally though, I've yet to see an app in a boardgame that seemed like it added anything and produced some exciting mixed media. Generally it's "we are bad at boardgame design" or "this should have probably been all digital"

    I haven't actually played Mansions of Madness 2E since buying it but I played the 1st edition a few times. What I've heard about the app for the 2nd edition seems like a good use of an app, though I'm uncertain whether it's the required method of setup now or an alternative to using a book like in the 1st edition. I already bought it so it's not like I'll be expressing my discontent with my wallet but I'll be happier if the app is supplementary.

    It's required, and IMO presents a much more fun scenario for the investigators. While I enjoyed being the narrator/storyteller/whatever to try and be as harsh as possible to my players, it wasn't fun for them. And conversely, they could look at the board layout and go "oh yeah, our objective is probably there." There weren't surprises. With the app, everything is hidden, the clues and contexts are relevant to the map, and you don't have to deal with a ton of decks.

    2nd edition would be much better if they didn't offer backwards compatibility, as that would allow them to ditch the frankly silly giant bases. I also wonder if there's a place I can get stickers or something for my 1st edition tiles to know if they are indoors/outdoors at a glance. But that's minor nitpicks to have what is now an ungodly massive collection.

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  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    antherem wrote: »
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    @Mojo_Jojo agreed. I'm not against apps as a concept i just haven't seen many app games that looked likee they justified the apps existence. Alchemists is the one that comes to mind.

    The Unlock games are an example of how to do app integration well. That said, for my money, I'm OK with app-required games even if all it does is, say, set up/shuffle/deal/maintain a bunch of decks of cards for me (i.e. Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition)

    Am I the only one who wishes they had at least included the option for a human to play the dungeon master like in MoM 1?

    You don't need that option in MoM2. That's why it was made, to remove a DM requirement. If you want to play the haunted house, which is a blast, just play MoM1 again.

    antherem
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    edited January 16
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Generally though, I've yet to see an app in a boardgame that seemed like it added anything and produced some exciting mixed media. Generally it's "we are bad at boardgame design" or "this should have probably been all digital"

    I'm not concerned about the app stuff. If it's great, it'll stick around. If it sucks, it'll probably just end up on the game shelf as a curiosity, anyway. But I have great faith that somehow, some way people will find a way to keep things going in the event something catastrophic happens and the app stops officially be supported.

    I'll also admit I'm sort of a sucker for gimmicks. :biggrin:

    ironzerg on


  • Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    oh hell yes, Tabletop Simulator mod and PNP files for Oath will be releasing on the 28th

    it won't be the full game, primarily it won't have the entire 200+ cardlist, but it's enough to be able to play games

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    Elvenshae
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 17
    Mr. G wrote: »
    oh hell yes, Tabletop Simulator mod and PNP files for Oath will be releasing on the 28th

    it won't be the full game, primarily it won't have the entire 200+ cardlist, but it's enough to be able to play games

    They're streaming a game over on Leder Games' Twitch channel right now, if anyone wants to see how it plays.

    Oath is definitely the most hyped I've been for a game since Pax Pamir 2e. An area-control+tableau game with a huge deck of cards designed by Cole Wehrle hits a lot of my buttons at the same time, and his approach to "Legacy" designs is way more interesting to me than the Risk/Pandemic model.

    admanb on
    Elvenshae
  • Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    Cole Wehrle just knows how to make designs that I actually want to just jump into the rulebook Pagemaster style and live in it

    I know the rules of Root like scripture at this point and I'm already so locked into the storytelling Oath is going for

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    edited January 17
    Ever been shown the mechanics for a board game and instantly realize you really, REALLY want it?

    Yeah. Our local demo guy did good and sold me on another game.

    Zb1vESIh.jpg
    Cities: Skylines.

    TL: DR - you have to develop tiles and manage meters in a fully co-op game. If at any time you can't take actions, you lose. But to progress, you have to complete milestones, completing the tiles and then scoring overall happiness and points. Things cost money, impact happiness, trash, employment, all sorts of things...

    And on top of that they added mini modules that make the scenarios even harder.

    Athenor on
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    So yesterday, I kind of snapped, and [REDACTED], and now I have Azul, Codenames Duet, Ghost Stories, and Operation Flashpoint

    No one can stop me

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  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited January 17
    Athenor wrote: »
    With the app, everything is hidden, the clues and contexts are relevant to the map, and you don't have to deal with a ton of decks.

    See what ultimately killed the game for me was that each scenario seemed to end up a random crapshoot of guessing the relevant clue. You had clue icons scattered all over the map, with 80% of them giving you a generic clue and the remaining being vital to solving the scenario. But most of the time you were given zero indication which was which until you went and investigated it. But you also didn't have enough time to go check out all of them (not that you would know that since the game keeps the time limit hidden), so it became a random guessing game and you won or lost through no action of your own.

    That, and the the fact that the other mechanics are paper thin to the point of being lighter than even Hero Quest. There's the "backstab your friends for no reason and lose the game" insanity deck that should be house ruled straight into the garbage.

    We realized after about 5 scenarios that we only liked the sense of discovery and the puzzles. We hated the rest.

    (I would have at least stick with it if there was a steady stream of DLC scenarios, but ffffuuuuuuuUCK their expansion model of $15 for each new scenario and a ton more plastic I don't want).

    MrBody on
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    I don't think the second scenario was a good one to go with. It's a huge map, that doesn't change a lot, you start locked in a room and may lose multiple turns trying to figure out how to escape, and then suddenly you lose your chance to win. I don't know if later scenarios improved things.

    And yes, the most egregious sin with Mansions of Madness is the lack of a custom creation workshop tool.

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  • jergarmarjergarmar hollow man crew goes pew pew pewRegistered User regular
    So yesterday, I kind of snapped, and [REDACTED], and now I have Azul, Codenames Duet, Ghost Stories, and Operation Flashpoint

    No one can stop me

    And now you're having a good time, having a good time.

    When I was a child, I had a fever...
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  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    I love On Mars so much!

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Tried a few rounds of Ghost Stories solo just to try it out and see how the rules flow

    The rulebook is an atrocity against the human mind, but the game seems really snappy and interesting as a nasty little puzzle. I can see why it's difficult.

    It's interesting that it came out around the same time as Pandemic (IIRC). Both seem prone to quarterbacking, but Ghost Stories at least presents a lot of potential decisions that involve weighing future outcomes, which means having more players is helpful to ease cognitive load.

    Pandemic Legacy was good at this, I recall, ramping up to an extremely complex and mechanically dense game. You could play it alone, sure, but delegating some decisions and planning to other brains is helpful.

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  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Ghost Stories has some room where you can debate different options every turn. Quarterbacking can still be an issue.

    Pandemic usually has one obvious optimal move. The quarterback will see this. Hand control over to them or you will probably lose.

    ArcticLancerVyolynce
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo Like a bad lobster in a dark cellar Registered User regular
    Is that season one or two you mean, EM. I quite liked that Pandemic Legacy 1 didn't actually increase in complexity as I was concerned that it might just pile on mechanics to the point where game length got out of hand

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  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    It took me legit over a year to properly get Ghost Stories on the table because its rulebook is such a disaster my group just didn't want to bother. Also, the first time we tried to navigate the manual, all of us had been drinking. Oops!

    In grim news, I have finally had my "it'll never happen to me" moment with Kickstarter: my third printing of Dungeon Degenerates never showed up. Some backers never got shipping notices or tracking info, but got their games regardless, so I might never know if my stuff was never actually sent or if it was stolen or lost somewhere in transit. I've contacted Goblinko, but my fear is a worst case scenario where they're like "yeah it was the post office's fault, nothing we can do," and I just burned a bunch of money.

    BloodySloth on
  • ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    It took me legit over a year to properly get Ghost Stories on the table because its rulebook is such a disaster my group just didn't want to bother. Also, the first time we tried to navigate the manual, all of us had been drinking. Oops!

    In grim news, I have finally had my "it'll never happen to me" moment with Kickstarter: my third printing of Dungeon Degenerates never showed up. Some backers never got shipping notices or tracking info, but got their games regardless, so I might never know if my stuff was never actually sent or if it was stolen or lost somewhere in transit. I've contacted Goblinko, but my fear is a worst case scenario where they're like "yeah it was the post office's fault, nothing we can do," and I just burned a bunch of money.

    That would be very poor of them. Generally, until it's in your hands, they should replace or refund because they got some sort of shipping insurance. I'd hope for a timely replacement shipment.

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    I really don't remember the rulebook for Ghost Stories being that bad ... <_<

  • PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies Registered User regular
    Ghost stories is fully vulnerable to quarterbacking, i would say. It was a real problem for a friend of mine on Halloween. I don't mind quarterbacking problems too much, i suppose, as i was only sad he wasn't having a good time.

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    I have been given a wonderful gift/curse, in the form of 100 bucks in stonemaier gift certificates.

    Time to never spend it as I agonize over the best way to allocate these resources.

    My brain says Wingspan, because I love the mechanics and think it’s very pretty, but it already exists in our friend group, so maybe Tapestry or Scythe.


    Heard Tapestry had some pretty gnarly balance issues though.

    Any recs?

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Is that season one or two you mean, EM. I quite liked that Pandemic Legacy 1 didn't actually increase in complexity as I was concerned that it might just pile on mechanics to the point where game length got out of hand

    Season 1 added new mechanics every month, though, and often multiple mechanics. You always had growing numbers of novel problems, and an expanding suite of tools to address them. By the late game, people were forgetting about some of the options they had because there were so many.

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
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  • wonderpugwonderpug Registered User regular
    I have been given a wonderful gift/curse, in the form of 100 bucks in stonemaier gift certificates.

    Time to never spend it as I agonize over the best way to allocate these resources.

    My brain says Wingspan, because I love the mechanics and think it’s very pretty, but it already exists in our friend group, so maybe Tapestry or Scythe.


    Heard Tapestry had some pretty gnarly balance issues though.

    Any recs?

    If you don't want to double up on Wingspan, I'd very much go for Scythe over Tapestry. I've only given Tapestry one try so far but nobody in my group liked it much. It didn't really feel like we were building civilizations, and the gameplay in general just didn't seem that fun. We're likely to give it at least a second try though to see if maybe we were just off on our first round.

    I love Wingspan, and very much like Scythe. If you're investigating other Stonemaier games as well, I'm also a big fan of Viticulture, Euphoria, Between Two Cities (particularly if you find yourself trying to find games for 6+ players that don't bog down), and My Little Scythe (if there are kids in your life to play with).

    antheremTheBlackWind
  • A Half Eaten OreoA Half Eaten Oreo Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    It took me legit over a year to properly get Ghost Stories on the table because its rulebook is such a disaster my group just didn't want to bother. Also, the first time we tried to navigate the manual, all of us had been drinking. Oops!

    In grim news, I have finally had my "it'll never happen to me" moment with Kickstarter: my third printing of Dungeon Degenerates never showed up. Some backers never got shipping notices or tracking info, but got their games regardless, so I might never know if my stuff was never actually sent or if it was stolen or lost somewhere in transit. I've contacted Goblinko, but my fear is a worst case scenario where they're like "yeah it was the post office's fault, nothing we can do," and I just burned a bunch of money.

    That sucks. I've enjoyed the game a good bit. Tho honestly I bought it 100% because of the art. I've been lucky so far and the worse a company did was make me wait about a month before re-sending a game that was obviously lost.
    wonderpug wrote: »
    I have been given a wonderful gift/curse, in the form of 100 bucks in stonemaier gift certificates.

    Time to never spend it as I agonize over the best way to allocate these resources.

    My brain says Wingspan, because I love the mechanics and think it’s very pretty, but it already exists in our friend group, so maybe Tapestry or Scythe.


    Heard Tapestry had some pretty gnarly balance issues though.

    Any recs?

    If you don't want to double up on Wingspan, I'd very much go for Scythe over Tapestry. I've only given Tapestry one try so far but nobody in my group liked it much. It didn't really feel like we were building civilizations, and the gameplay in general just didn't seem that fun. We're likely to give it at least a second try though to see if maybe we were just off on our first round.

    I love Wingspan, and very much like Scythe. If you're investigating other Stonemaier games as well, I'm also a big fan of Viticulture, Euphoria, Between Two Cities (particularly if you find yourself trying to find games for 6+ players that don't bog down), and My Little Scythe (if there are kids in your life to play with).

    IME Wingspan is by far the easiest of their bunch to get to the table. Viticulture is my favorite game, but I've had a harder time selling it to people who've never played it.

    Did Stonemaier make Between two Castles of Mad King Ludwig? I though it was fine, but a few in my group really really liked it.

    A Half Eaten Oreo on
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  • A Half Eaten OreoA Half Eaten Oreo Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Double post.

    A Half Eaten Oreo on
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    Viticulture is one of my favorite worker placement games almost entirely on the back of the sumo worker mechanic letting you force your way into an already claimed space but it kicks the worker on that space back to the owners hand letting them reuse it.

    Tapestry almost requires you to use the errata but the game with it is significantly better with them. It's the "civ building but not" version to scythes "this looks like an area control wargame but isn't" and I'm generically into that

    Scythe is one of those games I've never had a problem getting people to play. I'm currently doing the rise of fenris campaign expansion with a mix of newbie and veteran players and it's been a blast.

    You could also just use it for all the random upgrade things they have. The metal coins for scythe are a thing I've considered buying again for other games

    initiatefailure on
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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Yeah, I was going to suggest Between Two Castles - they did a very good job with it IMO, in terms of setup and teardown and making it easy(ish) to teach.

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  • Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    edited January 19
    If you get viticulture get the expansion too, I don't think it's worth playing without it. And free money is a good way to buy that stuff so it doesn't seem like you're getting totally gouged to get a playable light worker placement game when the base game is expensive and then you have to buy the required expansion too.

    Ah_Pook on
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  • ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    Got Tokaido to the table for the first time. Everyone liked it! We played without character specific starts/abilities, but eager to try that next time.
    It's so much more cutthroat than any of us expected, as there aren't enough stops for everyone, as we played with 4.
    Part of me wants to go all in and get the nice upgrade pack and expansion. The other part of me says I should probably play a game more than once before I drop a ton more money into it. Heh.

    mHn29NG.png
    tzeentchling
  • A Half Eaten OreoA Half Eaten Oreo Registered User regular
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    If you get viticulture get the expansion too, I don't think it's worth playing without it. And free money is a good way to buy that stuff so it doesn't seem like you're getting totally gouged to get a playable light worker placement game when the base game is expensive and then you have to buy the required expansion too.

    Yeah, even teach the game with the expansion. It's much better. I also like the alternate deck, not necessary but IMO better than default.

  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo Like a bad lobster in a dark cellar Registered User regular
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    If you get viticulture get the expansion too, I don't think it's worth playing without it. And free money is a good way to buy that stuff so it doesn't seem like you're getting totally gouged to get a playable light worker placement game when the base game is expensive and then you have to buy the required expansion too.

    Didn't Viticulture Essential solve this by including the necessary bits of Tuscany?

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  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    More Villainous coming in March:
    pic5172286.png

    pic5172287.png

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