[Board Games] Cardboard Action at a Distance

18586889091100

Posts

  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited March 4
    Woah, man ...
    To the first thing, sure, I guess? I'm involved in numerous sub-communities on BGG that are far more liberal and self-policing. I wouldn't fault BGG for "being a place where humans exist." and would personally feel there are more people with reasonable views than the inverse.
    To the second claim, "They have a separate forum to keep the women in" sure is a way of saying "there's a dedicated forum for women in the hobby." It's also boggling to me that a designated safe space / community hub is indicative of a problem with the site. :|

    It's not a safe space. Like, not even close. And, even if it was , the fact they had to make a separate forum for them TO be safe in would only prove my point.

    I'm not faulting it for a place where humans exist. The shit parts of people are far far more on display there; even to the extent where people are surprised when they get called pout for it. They are literally amazed it's not the overall opinion.

    Happily that stuff is getting deleted now but that only started last year.

    However, yes, it's certainly not everyone over there. There's quite a few nice people and subgroups but I do have to stress the place has changed a LOT in the last 15+ years. There was a time when even mentioning that you were homosexual would get the post deleted. The "Coming Out Day" celebratory geeklist is STILL hidden from anyone being able to see it.

    Magic Pink on
    antheremBloodySloth
  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    sullijo wrote: »
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    Sterica wrote: »
    I got to pick up Life Siphon this weekend at PAX East, as well as talk to the artist and one of the creators for the game.

    There's something special about playing the game, having a rules dispute, and realizing you can just ask the people who made the game.

    For all of its numerous faults, this is occasionally also one of BGG's most useful features.

    What do you see are some of BGG's faults? (This is a serious question from someone who, 15 years after creating an account, is starting to do more than just catalog games on the site.)

    The same faults as most online social media, especially gaming-related ones.
    This is such a non-answer that I'm actively annoyed.

    TBF I was certain that someone with more specific knowledge would chime in before long. My personal involvement with BGG is kept to a surface level and has dwindled to near zero in recent years.

    ArcticLancer
  • antheremantherem Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Woah, man ...
    To the first thing, sure, I guess? I'm involved in numerous sub-communities on BGG that are far more liberal and self-policing. I wouldn't fault BGG for "being a place where humans exist." and would personally feel there are more people with reasonable views than the inverse.
    To the second claim, "They have a separate forum to keep the women in" sure is a way of saying "there's a dedicated forum for women in the hobby." It's also boggling to me that a designated safe space / community hub is indicative of a problem with the site. :|

    It's not a safe space. Like, not even close. And, even if it was , the fact they had to make a separate forum for them TO be safe in would only prove my point.

    I'm not faulting it for a place where humans exist. The shit parts of people are far far more on display there; even to the extent where people are surprised when they get called pout for it. They are literally amazed it's not the overall opinion.

    Happily that stuff is getting deleted now but that only started last year.

    I always feel bad for Octavian, who has to read all of the reports. And yeah I'm definitely on board with the particularly noxious nonsense getting just straight deleted now (with a reason attached), as well as any post that quoted it.

    Magic PinkArcticLancer
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    sullijo wrote: »
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    Sterica wrote: »
    I got to pick up Life Siphon this weekend at PAX East, as well as talk to the artist and one of the creators for the game.

    There's something special about playing the game, having a rules dispute, and realizing you can just ask the people who made the game.

    For all of its numerous faults, this is occasionally also one of BGG's most useful features.

    What do you see are some of BGG's faults? (This is a serious question from someone who, 15 years after creating an account, is starting to do more than just catalog games on the site.)

    The same faults as most online social media, especially gaming-related ones.
    This is such a non-answer that I'm actively annoyed.

    TBF I was certain that someone with more specific knowledge would chime in before long. My personal involvement with BGG is kept to a surface level and has dwindled to near zero in recent years.
    This is such an honest post it is genuinely appreciated. ;)

  • JonBobJonBob Registered User regular
    This topic comes up again from time to time and it never fails to surprise me. I spend a lot of time on BGG and manage to avoid all this stuff. I'm by no means denying it exists, but I'm skeptical that it defines the site in the way people seem to think. Most of my engagement is with the database, with every post on every rules forum on every game that I own or play regularly, and with geeklists made by people I know personally. I never touch the "general chat" areas, which must be where the toxicity is concentrated.

    The "entitled" comment does ring true for me, though. I have seen a vocal minority up in arms over production issues, Kickstarter delays, and the like way more than is warranted.

    jswidget.php?username=JonBob&numitems=10&header=1&text=none&images=small&show=recentplays&imagesonly=1&imagepos=right&inline=1&domains%5B%5D=boardgame&imagewidget=1
    ArcticLancertyrantula22Raw Concrete
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited March 4
    A lot of online board game spaces have this weird sort of "conservative dad" atmosphere, where everyone is deeply encouraged to be polite and bad language is very frowned upon, but then people will also dogpile you for calling out bigotry or a lack of inclusiveness and folks get all tied up when you suggest that maybe the overt sexualization of female characters could be toned down a touch. I've definitely noticed that streak running through BGG, though yes, it does seem that it's getting better in that regard.

    Edit: That being said I don't think that 'defines' BGG so much as it is just an aspect of the community around this hobby, and BGG is a big social webste dedicated to the hobby. I've definitely frequented places where the issue is more prominent. There's quite a helpless feeling, sometimes, in being the only person in a thread or comment chain going "really guys? really?"

    BloodySloth on
    antheremjakobaggerFishman
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Anywhere the conversation is dominated by cis white dudes, regardless of their political leanings, will trend towards that atmosphere unless it's actively counteracted by discussion and moderation.

    Magic PinkDarkPrimusCalica
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    The problem with the BBG community can be summed up as "it's just a game, dude".

    I wouldn't call it a conservative dad atmosphere so much as "that" IT guy at work atmosphere.

    Magic PinkantheremjakobaggerElvenshae
  • ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    *is an IT guy at work reading this*

    :eek:

    I know what you mean, the timing was funny though.

    mHn29NG.png
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Say what you will about Munchkin, but I'd wager it's one of the larger gateway games. Unlike something heavier, it's refusal to take itself seriously and emphasis on mocking powergamers makes it more welcoming than, say, Catan.

    YL9WnCY.png
    CalicaElvenshaeMadpoet
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 5
    Having said that, I am so tired of games that clearly spent the bulk of their time in development on a wacky theme or hi-larious premise to grab attention, and Munchkin absolutely opened the door for such tripe.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
    antherem
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Munchkin carries with it the cardinal sin of being designed around kingmaking.

    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    Ivellius
  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    ArcSyn wrote: »
    *is an IT guy at work reading this*

    :eek:

    I know what you mean, the timing was funny though.

    I've worked with a few IT teams over my years, and yea, there always is one. It's the office version of the shop guy wearing 3 different kind of camos at once.

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
    MrBody
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Munchkin carries with it the cardinal sin of being designed around kingmaking.

    As a game, it sucks. As a social activity with friends who like absurdist humor and general silliness it's pretty great. It does require everyone to understand that no one is taking it seriously, though.

    One of my most fondly-remembered RPG experiences was just a game of Munchkin where people started narrating their encounters for the hell of it, and from there it somehow spiralled into an actual story that we were making up as we went along :biggrin:

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
    WatcherVyolynceantheremChiselphaneElvenshaeFishmanIvellius
  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! Registered User regular
    Munchkin fell (stumbled?) into a "social game" slot for me.

    You don't play it to play a game. You play it to pass the time and bullshit with the other players. The game has many flaws, and people who are expecting any modicum of strategy or are playing with the intent to win won't enjoy it. I don't know if Steve Jackson knew it while he was was designing it, but people equate "this thing was present while I had a good time" with "this is a good thing" a lot.

    Pass the margs (no salt for me, thanks), gather 'round the table, and let's all have a laugh at how Steve's half-orc-half-cat-half-elf fell into a pit with three monsters and dropped his +2 chainsaw or whatever.

    GNU Terry Pratchett
    3DS FC: 0810-0331-1324 | PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
    ElvenshaeCalicaIvellius
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Having said that, I am so tired of games that clearly spent the bulk of their time in development on a wacky theme or hi-larious premise to grab attention, and Munchkin absolutely opened the door for such tripe.

    i.e. most Steve Jackson games

    VyolynceDarkPrimus
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Oh man, I actually did have a real life brush with BGG community.

    I joined a local group that advertised on BGG. There was this one guy, he always would be making "mistakes" in games. These mistakes would almost always be to his benefit. Counting out wrong amounts that gave him extra income, "forgetting" to pay the bank when buying stuff, making moves that his tableau didn't allow but you wouldn't catch it unless you were closely reading his tableau, etc. It happened so often that you were almost positive he was doing it on purpose, but juuuuuuust fell short of being sure enough to call him out.

    He was not a pleasant human being on top of that. He also could not be avoided because the group was too small to have more than one game played at once.

    One night he broke out some obscure Euro, flew right through the rules explanation, and I was totally lost. I had no clue what was going on, and it certainly didn't help that all the text was in French! I lasted about 3 turns of totally blind moves. I would appeal for some kind of clarification, and it would be brushed aside with a "you'll get it" reply. After one move he says, "You know you just fucked me with that move, right?"

    "Sorry?"
    "That doesn't help you at all. You're fucking me just for the sake of fucking me."
    "Dude. I'm totally lost. I have no clue what I'm doing."
    "You're not supposed to play like that, just fucking people over."

    At that point I just stood up, thanked the host the evening, walked out, and never came back.


    (I get that same feeling reading about one-third of BGG posts)

    Magic PinkMNC DoverGnizmoDarkPrimusFrywebguy20Dirk2112ElvenshaetzeentchlingCalicaIvelliusArmoroc
  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    Sterica wrote: »
    Having said that, I am so tired of games that clearly spent the bulk of their time in development on a wacky theme or hi-larious premise to grab attention, and Munchkin absolutely opened the door for such tripe.

    i.e. most Steve Jackson games

    And then he/they put out something like Revolution! and you have to convince people that "no, really, this is a great game."

    antheremDarkPrimus
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Nemesis looks fun.

    Magic PinkantheremFrederickDyversTimFijiIvellius
  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    It really is!

    MhCw7nZ.gif
    antheremMagic PinkTimFiji
  • antheremantherem Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Nemesis looks fun.

    It's fantastic. Does a great job of capturing a scenario where if everyone worked together, you'd all survive, but you don't and you don't. (Unless you're the android. That jerk.) You end up fighting the other players just as much as the aliens.

    Ivellius
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    antherem wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    Nemesis looks fun.

    It's fantastic. Does a great job of capturing a scenario where if everyone worked together, you'd all survive, but you don't and you don't. (Unless you're the android. That jerk.) You end up fighting the other players just as much as the aliens.

    You don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!

    antherem38thDoeDoctorArchElvenshaeBloodySlothironsizide
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited March 5
    Bogart wrote: »
    Nemesis looks fun.

    I've played it three times now and it's basically a successful execution of what "Ameritrash" tries to do: create an immersive, narrative experience with enough meat in the mechanics to be enjoyable and meaningful. Decisions are mostly made based on motivations that are narratively coherent, instead of mechanical minutiae, but you also do have access to strong plays that have significant effects (closing doors, opening airlocks, blasting aliens with fire suppression to force them to move, etc).

    Downside is it can run very long (3+ hours) and has a lot of randomness driving it. And there's a lot of fiddly bits. A lot.

    Your characters are fairly resilient against randomness, though, and you can survive a lot of bad things happening (and mitigate them if you do manage to work together). E.g., your chances of hitting aliens in combat are pretty low, especially the more dangerous ones, and your ammo is very limited, so travelling together is really valuable to make sure you can take multiple shots in one round. But everyone wants to rush for their objectives....

    Edit: even the most competitive, picky eurogame lovers in my group had a good time with it, though they wouldn't want to play it every weekend. Being forced to scan for infection at the end of the game is so powerfully hype that it wins everyone over.

    Evil Multifarious on
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
    BogartantheremCalicaIvellius
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Interesting juxtaposition of Munchkin and Nemesis, there. I haven't actually seen Nemesis, just what I've read about it here previously. Sounds like you can describe both of them as "very long, you probably won't win, hopefully people are too busy screwing each other to bother you, is more of a fun story generator than a serious game"

  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Interesting juxtaposition of Munchkin and Nemesis, there. I haven't actually seen Nemesis, just what I've read about it here previously. Sounds like you can describe both of them as "very long, you probably won't win, hopefully people are too busy screwing each other to bother you, is more of a fun story generator than a serious game"

    Shut Up & Sit Down had a good video about Nemesis that they just put up yesterday. It was my first introduction to the game.

    Switch Friend Code: SW-6732-9515-9697
    Evil Multifarious
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    I would not compare Munchkin to Nemesis

    There is really not much direct screwing over in Nemesis; you can't attack each other with anything but tasers (which are hard to find) and maybe grenades, if there's an alien in the room too?

    It's more about closing doors on people to trap them in a room with an angry alien and a fire

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
    AuralynxIvellius
  • Raw ConcreteRaw Concrete Registered User regular
    Although to be fair, the feeling of being trapped in a bad situation is very true to the experience of many people playing Munchkin.

    Oh, come and shake me 'till I'm dry
    Ah_PookElvenshaeEvil MultifariousA Half Eaten OreoFryadmanbwebguy20Magic PinkArcticLancerKetarChiselphaneA Dabble Of TheloniusIvelliusArmoroc
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    *blows Munchkin out the goddamn airlock*

    Magic PinkFryAh_PookRaw ConcreteArmoroc
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    *blows Munchkin out the goddamn airlock*
    Munchkin in Space probably has a card that cancels that action. >_>

    VyolynceElvenshaeIvellius
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    *blows Munchkin out the goddamn airlock*
    Munchkin in Space probably has a card that cancels that action. >_>

    The most Munchkin card I can imagine is one that says, "When someone tries to quit the game, play this card to prevent them from quitting."

    FryAh_PookMNC DoverArcSynDarkPrimusKetarArcticLancerChiselphanetzeentchlingElvenshaeIvelliusArmoroc
  • Ah_PookAh_Pook Registered User regular
    Man Aeons End is
    admanb wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    *blows Munchkin out the goddamn airlock*
    Munchkin in Space probably has a card that cancels that action. >_>

    The most Munchkin card I can imagine is one that says, "When someone tries to quit the game, play this card to prevent them from quitting."

    "When someone wins, sit silently at the table for another hour and then roll a d6 to determine who actually wins."

    Pancho needs your prayers it's true
    But save a few for Lefty too
    Magic PinkIvellius
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Ah_Pook wrote: »
    Man Aeons End is
    admanb wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    *blows Munchkin out the goddamn airlock*
    Munchkin in Space probably has a card that cancels that action. >_>

    The most Munchkin card I can imagine is one that says, "When someone tries to quit the game, play this card to prevent them from quitting."

    "When someone wins, sit silently at the table for another hour and then roll a d6 to determine who actually wins."

    That doesn't work because it's actually more fun than how the endgame cards actually work.

  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Fry wrote: »
    Interesting juxtaposition of Munchkin and Nemesis, there. I haven't actually seen Nemesis, just what I've read about it here previously. Sounds like you can describe both of them as "very long, you probably won't win, hopefully people are too busy screwing each other to bother you, is more of a fun story generator than a serious game"

    Shut Up & Sit Down had a good video about Nemesis that they just put up yesterday. It was my first introduction to the game.

    "I can't really recommend it, but I can't stop recommending it."

    It's a perfect summation

    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
    FryRaw ConcreteElvenshaeIvellius
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Munchkin carries with it the cardinal sin of being designed around kingmaking.
    Any game where a player’s actions affect other 2+ players is going to have kingmaking. That’s just unavoidable unless you’re very good as obfuscating the board state, which is arguable a bandaid.

    Munchkin’s sin is that the win condition is a single, declared act that all action revolves around, and makes prior actions meaningless. Level 10 is all that matters, and since getting to levels 2-9 can be done so easily (cards, selling gear, etc.), there is little point to wasting resources on those levels. So, to win you have to either hope someone is dumb enough to try for 10, or hope you got enough gas to get ahead of the storm of crap coming your way. So you get the most boring standoff this side of an entrenched Australian player in Risk, and the game ends when a person gets bored enough to just go for it so something actually happens. Then they win by luck of the draw, or the next player wins because everyone exhausted their hands.

    That’s the issue with Munchkin: the game is far, far too heavily weighted towards the late game.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • DarricDarric Santa MonicaRegistered User regular
    Well, I'll be the contrarian voice on Nemesis. It's about the best Alien board game there is. It's also an overlong, fiddly, rules nightmare where you have to be okay with just getting a cool story out of it, rather than a game where you have any real agency. A lot of nonsense happens that is entirely out of your control, and can lead to you being eliminated one hour into a three hour game. Can't say I didn't have fun with it, but go in expecting "crazy thematic experience" rather than "competitive/co-operative board game".

    tyrantula22Auralynx
  • tyrantula22tyrantula22 Registered User regular
    Darric wrote: »
    Well, I'll be the contrarian voice on Nemesis. It's about the best Alien board game there is. It's also an overlong, fiddly, rules nightmare where you have to be okay with just getting a cool story out of it, rather than a game where you have any real agency. A lot of nonsense happens that is entirely out of your control, and can lead to you being eliminated one hour into a three hour game. Can't say I didn't have fun with it, but go in expecting "crazy thematic experience" rather than "competitive/co-operative board game".

    I enjoyed the game the one time I played it, but I agree with this completely. You have to treat it the same way people say to treat Betrayal at House on the Hill. It's an "experience" more than a "game". Although to be fair to Nemesis, the rules are better than Betrayal. However, like you said, my experience ended with one of the players basically getting killed 1/3 of the way through the game and there just wasn't really anything he could do about it just due to unfortunate luck, and to continue the "Betrayal" analogy, that's basically like the haunt being revealed and realizing it's going to swing hard towards heroes/villain right from the start and one side just can't do anything about it.

    Battletag: Tyrantula22#1623
    Steam ID
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    I've been thinking of trying to run a Nemesis forum game. Think the rules are a fit for that or would it just be a mess in that format?

  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    You’d need to be on it as GM with a lot of card/token drawing.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo Like a bad lobster in a dark cellar Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    I've been thinking of trying to run a Nemesis forum game. Think the rules are a fit for that or would it just be a mess in that format?

    I'd be down for that

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    You’d need to be on it as GM with a lot of card/token drawing.

    I'll have to look over the rules. There are games that aren't that complicated, but just wouldn't work on a message board due to a lot of action interrupts and reactions. The Arkham Horror Card Game was one of those I was considering then realized it just wouldn't be feasible.

Sign In or Register to comment.