[Programming] Page overflow to new thread

Cambiata

My solution for "what if you want a number other than zero" is this. And to make it easier on myself I gave things meaningful names, or at least names that are different from each other:

#!/bin/python3

def triplets(n, arr, sum): 
  
    for i in range(0, n-2): 
      
        for j in range(i+1, n-1): 
          
            for k in range(j+1, n): 
              
                if (arr[i] + arr[j] + arr[k] == sum): 
                    print(arr[i], arr[j], arr[k]) 
                    found = True

    if (found == False): 
        print("-1") 
  

if __name__ == "__main__" :
    arr = [1, -1, 5, 0, -4, 3]
    sum = 2
    n = len(arr) 
    triplets(n, arr, sum)

Now this actually presents me the numbers from the list that equal my sum. The test in fact just wanted me to count how many triplets would equal the sum, so working on that next before I get to the more complicated thing.
Edit: I think I can figure out the counting thing, I'll just make a variable called count and add to it every time my loop finds the appropriate count.

BlazeFire

Nevermind, I can't read.

Cambiata

ok, my edited triplets for counting:

#!/bin/python3

def triplets(n, arr, sum): 
    count = 0
  
    for i in range(0, n-2): 
      
        for j in range(i+1, n-1): 
          
            for k in range(j+1, n): 
              
                if (arr[i] + arr[j] + arr[k] == sum): 
                    count += 1
                    found = True

    if (found == False): 
        print("-1") 
    print(count)
  

if __name__ == "__main__" :
    arr = [1, -1, 5, 0, -4, 3]
    sum = 2
    n = len(arr) 
    triplets(n, arr, sum)

Now the part I suspect will take me a while: how to count if the numbers fit both the sum and a<b<c.

Edit: Could the answer really be this simple? I don't remember if position mattered in the list or not, I wish I had been allowed to copy/paste the instructions for later review.

if (arr[i] + arr[j] + arr[k] == sum) and (arr[i] < arr[j]) and (arr[j] < arr[k]): 
                    count += 1
                    found = True

Edit: Ok I'm going to work further to see if I can figure out how to do this where position makes a difference.

Carpy

So I know you're not working on their output program anymore but you had asked about assigning an empty list to d. The reason for that is the append() call, your variable has to exist and must be of type list before you can call append() on it. Assigning an empty list to d is a quick and dirty Python way to both instantiate d and set it's type to list in one line.

For your triplets program there's a small error that you can expose with an array that doesn't contain any triplets.

That answer looks good to me. What do you mean by position makes a difference?

Cambiata

Carpy wrote: »

That answer looks good to me. What do you mean by position makes a difference?

For example, if given a list like this:

arr = [1, 2, 5, 0, -4, 3]

If I want to say that position in the list matters in the a<b<c, then the only triplet that would count is 1, 2, 5, making the count 1. Or if I had a list like the original one in my code:

arr = [1, -1, 5, 0, -4, 3]

The answer is -1 because that was the test-requested answer for if there were no results.

For your triplets program there's a small error that you can expose with an array that doesn't contain any triplets.

OK, I'll try this.

Cambiata

Fixed?

def triplets(n, arr, sum): 
    count = 0
  
    for i in range(0, n-2): 
      
        for j in range(i+1, n-1): 
          
            for k in range(j+1, n): 
              
                if (arr[i] + arr[j] + arr[k] == sum) and (arr[i] < arr[j]) and (arr[j] < arr[k]): 
                    count += 1
                    
    if count > 0:            
        print(count)

    else:
        print(-1)
  

if __name__ == "__main__" :
    arr = [1, -1, 5, 0, 4, 7]
    sum = 2
    n = len(arr) 
    triplets(n, arr, sum) 

I'm just going to assume for now that position doesn't matter, and work on making this where it accepts multiple numbers from the user in place of the set variable arr.

thatassemblyguy

another way to think about position mattering is to ask the question: Can you modify the input list?

Carpy

That fix should work, you could have also set

found = False

at the start of your function and then the check at 16 is seeing if found changed.

Do your triplets need to have sequential indices? Your for loops suggest that that they don't which means your original array of

arr = [1, -1, 5, 0, -4, 3]

had a triplet of (-1,0,3) for sum=2

I'd suggest adding a print at line 9 to see what values you're checking on each iteration

print("{} {} {}". format(arr[I], arr[j],arr[k])

dporowski

If you're on Python 3 (and you should be if possible) then may I recommend the joy that is f-strings?

print(f"Val 1: {arr[i]}, Val 2: {arr[j]}, Val 3: {arr[k]})"

Echo

I've been wondering, does the "engineer" in software engineer actually imply an engineering degree in English? Here in Swedistan we have "civil engineer in X" that's an actual protected title with a degree.

thatassemblyguy

Echo wrote: »

I've been wondering, does the "engineer" in software engineer actually imply an engineering degree in English? Here in Swedistan we have "civil engineer in X" that's an actual protected title with a degree.

For the US, it’s protected in most states. You can’t open an engineering business without passing the Professional Engineering exam. That’s why a lot of companies classify software jobs and dance around the engineering title.

There are also accredited university degrees for engineering that are available that operate in more as electrical engineering degrees with some computer science in the mix.

Campy

Echo wrote: »

I've been wondering, does the "engineer" in software engineer actually imply an engineering degree in English? Here in Swedistan we have "civil engineer in X" that's an actual protected title with a degree.

My experience here in the UK is that the only determining factor in whether a company uses engineer is the age of the folks in charge of IT. Software Engineer is seemingly an "old school" term, replaced these days by Software Developer.

Honestly I think the whole world would be a better place if there was actually some sort of governing body and protected titling like you say. But then the world of programming is so varied, I don't know what would go in to an "official certification" or whatever you'd call it.

Certainly seems to me at the moment that most people come out with a programming degree with little idea of how to actually write code in the real world. So clearly it's not easy.

Cambiata

dporowski wrote: »

If you're on Python 3 (and you should be if possible) then may I recommend the joy that is f-strings?

print(f"Val 1: {arr[i]}, Val 2: {arr[j]}, Val 3: {arr[k]})"

Yes I'm in Python 3 and I know about f-strings, but I don't know why I'd want to print my results like this. I mean maybe if I was trying to write a program with human-readable outputs, but the test was asking specifically for number outputs and nothing else.

Spawnbroker

Spoit wrote: »

Spawnbroker wrote: »

There is no regulatory body like doctors and lawyers have that can tell a company if a person is a reasonably passable programmer. Anyone can walk in and declare that they can code. Add on the fact that programming is a very in-demand field that pays a lot of money with a relatively low barrier to entry, and you have a lot of people who try to "fake it til they make it" by applying to programming jobs. Even worse is that software is usually the thing that is easiest to break in your company and powers a lot of your core business, so a bad hire can literally ruin your company.

So the only way companies can protect themselves from making disastrous hires is by relying on current employees vouching for someone or by giving them a coding test to make sure they can actually solve problems. Some companies take it too far (I have some stories about my Google/Amazon/Facebook/Microsoft interviews over the years, hoo boy), but they do it because they have no other way of making sure that you aren't one of the people trying to cheat their way into a job that they have no business in.

Are there any other industries where they have developed a whole other sub industry for preparing for interviews? I guess test-prep for the Bar and the LSAT and the like, but that's not quite the same

I can't think of any!

Another thing a lot of people don't talk enough about is how this current interviewing practice favors hiring white men. Companies reach a certain size and realize holy shit, we have a diversity problem. My company is going through this right now and trying to figure out what about our process is causing women and minorities to make it through at way lower rates.

Soggybiscuit

You can't have "Engineer" or "Engineering" in the name. You can however do engineering work if it does not require a PE to provide a stamp. This is more common with electrical firms. I know this because the same question was asked by someone at my first job and they got that answer. An example: "Process and Electrical" a-ok; "Process and Electrical Engineering" better have a PE running the place or expect fines and a name change.

Practically though civil engineers are essentially excluded from working on their own unless they have a PE license. They always have to work for a firm as almost everything they do requires a license. Mechanical engineers are in the same boat if they work on infrastructure stuff like bridges. It's rare for more than one or two PEs to be at electrical firms as most states do not require a stamp for non-infrastructure stuff. Its a common way to cut costs by not stamping electrical drawings. Having properly licensed electricians is actually more important.

bowen

Soggybiscuit wrote: »

Spawnbroker wrote: »

My company has switched to a code debugging exercise, which I'm not sure is better. Nobody really knows how to interview correctly in this industry. Fizzbuzz was very successful at finding people who couldn't code at my old job, despite it being a very well-known problem. I even gave them the modulo operator for free, because if they knew how to write a loop, congratulations, you passed, here's some other questions

Like, I'm not even a programmer, I'm a scientist and I know about and use the modulo operator on a semi-regular basis. Usually I'll use it to debug something I have to loop over by printing out every 1000th result or similar.

Are you telling me people are interview for jobs as programmer without knowing about it?

Programming is algebra heavy, not stats or mathematics heavy (well the lower level stuff can be).

If you know logic proofs and basic algebra, and linear math, you're 95% of the way there. It's amazing how many people don't understand logic though. Like... a shockingly high amount of people.

bowen

thatassemblyguy wrote: »

Echo wrote: »

I've been wondering, does the "engineer" in software engineer actually imply an engineering degree in English? Here in Swedistan we have "civil engineer in X" that's an actual protected title with a degree.

For the US, it’s protected in most states. You can’t open an engineering business without passing the Professional Engineering exam. That’s why a lot of companies classify software jobs and dance around the engineering title.

There are also accredited university degrees for engineering that are available that operate in more as electrical engineering degrees with some computer science in the mix.

Engineer in the terms of mechanical or structural engineer is protected, yes. You cannot offer those engineering services in the US or any of the commonwealth nations without being a certified engineer by some level of certifying body for your specialty. However in the US, software engineer is a bit of a different beast. Software engineer even has an exception in Canada because of the proximity to the US where it's a common term for a "Software Developer++".

Engineer in software has more to do with your skillset than anything in particular, engineers design systems from the ground up generally, whereas programmers write code and a software developer might handle slightly more in depth tasks than writing code (repository maintenance, build systems, etc). The engineer is the one who's handling the entire project design, meeting with clients and getting requirements, etc. This can apply to software developers too, but generally in the US they use software engineer in place for that.

Up until recently Canada didn't even like that, but they've softened their regulation on the word engineer because of immigrants coming across to work in Canada. It's actually one of the job choices on their little fast track thing @Infidel showed me recently.

Infidel

Yeah there is software engineer in CA and the US and it vexes me. It is such a poor use of the word anyways, it doesn't really relate.

BlazeFire

bowen wrote: »

thatassemblyguy wrote: »

Echo wrote: »

I've been wondering, does the "engineer" in software engineer actually imply an engineering degree in English? Here in Swedistan we have "civil engineer in X" that's an actual protected title with a degree.

For the US, it’s protected in most states. You can’t open an engineering business without passing the Professional Engineering exam. That’s why a lot of companies classify software jobs and dance around the engineering title.

There are also accredited university degrees for engineering that are available that operate in more as electrical engineering degrees with some computer science in the mix.

Engineer in the terms of mechanical or structural engineer is protected, yes. You cannot offer those engineering services in the US or any of the commonwealth nations without being a certified engineer by some level of certifying body for your specialty. However in the US, software engineer is a bit of a different beast. Software engineer even has an exception in Canada because of the proximity to the US where it's a common term for a "Software Developer++".

Engineer in software has more to do with your skillset than anything in particular, engineers design systems from the ground up generally, whereas programmers write code and a software developer might handle slightly more in depth tasks than writing code (repository maintenance, build systems, etc). The engineer is the one who's handling the entire project design, meeting with clients and getting requirements, etc. This can apply to software developers too, but generally in the US they use software engineer in place for that.

Up until recently Canada didn't even like that, but they've softened their regulation on the word engineer because of immigrants coming across to work in Canada. It's actually one of the job choices on their little fast track thing @Infidel showed me recently.

I do not think any province has softened or changed regulations surrounding the protected term "Engineer".

bowen

https://www.immigration.ca/fast-track-high-demand-occupations#Occupation

BlazeFire

bowen wrote: »

https://www.immigration.ca/fast-track-high-demand-occupations#Occupation

Ok. The regulations still have not been relaxed or changed.

Phyphor

For the most part they've stopped caring about internal job titles for big companies, since you won't be doing work for external clients or representing yourself as an engineer it's not worth the hassle

bowen

perhaps we should ask echo to move this thread to D&D so it fits in with the idiotic pedantry a bit better tho

BlazeFire

...

Yes, that is exactly what we were talking about. It is 100% a discussion on a detail about what is legal use of a word.

bowen

The first time I looked into this, roughly six years ago, they made it pretty clear as to why they didn't use it and why you, as an immigrant should not use it.

And yet the official Canadian immigration website in 2020 now uses it, so they have obviously relaxed their regulations on the enforcement of the wording.

So which is it, completely protected no matter what, or did they relax it because of colloquial usage? You can't have both if it's protected legally. Maybe they didn't change the laws but relaxed the enforcement, which is tantamount to relaxing the regulation.

Words!

BlazeFire

It is protected legally. You have a very optimistic outlook on how well various governmental organizations talk to one another.

Here is an example specifically about software engineer from BC:
https://www.egbc.ca/Become-a-Member/How-to-Apply/Professional-Membership-and-Licence/Engineer-First-Time-Applying-in-Canada/Software-Engineering-Applicants

If an individual practises software engineering or calls themselves a “software engineer” (or a similar title that implies that they are a software engineer) in British Columbia, and is not registered with Engineers and Geoscientists BC, they are contravening section 22 of the Engineers and Geoscientists Act.

Violations of section 22 are actionable in court by Engineers and Geoscientists BC. An individual, corporation, partnership or other legal entity that contravenes section 22 can be made to pay damages of up to $25,000 pursuant to section 27 of the Act. In addition, Engineers and Geoscientists BC is entitled under section 23 of the Act to seek an injunction to restrain the individual from continuing to breach the Act.

Engineers and Geoscientists BC takes enforcement action where warranted, and has previously dealt with unauthorized practice and misuse of title complaints relating to unregistered individuals who have practised software engineering or used titles implying that they were software engineers.

bowen

Guess they should sue their government.

Phyphor

The PE associations and CCPE take the stance that all of "software engineering" falls under their jurisdiction. CIPS disagrees and the lawsuit between them remains essentially unresolved

Ear3nd1l

I guess I don't understand why people get so worked up about the term "software engineer." Would the same issue apply to "software architect?" As bowen stated, there is a difference in skill level between someone who designs the architecture of an application and someone who writes said application. Typically when I see this issue brought up, it is by mechanical/electrical/etc engineers who don't like software guys encroaching on their titles (no one in this thread, I mean no offense to anyone). Maybe "engineer" isn't the right term, but then we as an industry should come up with something more appropriate.

If it's the matter of the protected use of the word "engineer", I get that but the US is different. Most of the people I have had this discussion with are from the US so that hasn't been a factor. If it is a matter of education, I respectfully disagree because software developers can go through just as much schooling as other fields.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Hopefully I didn't just make this worse. Again, I mean no offense, I'm just trying to understand.

bowen

What about edge cases like nuclear engineers? They're not mechanical and you'd have to REALLY stretch to call them geoscientists.

bowen

Ear3nd1l wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why people get so worked up about the term "software engineer." Would the same issue apply to "software architect?" As bowen stated, there is a difference in skill level between someone who designs the architecture of an application and someone who writes said application. Typically when I see this issue brought up, it is by mechanical/electrical/etc engineers who don't like software guys encroaching on their titles (no one in this thread, I mean no offense to anyone). Maybe "engineer" isn't the right term, but then we as an industry should come up with something more appropriate.

If it's the matter of the protected use of the word "engineer", I get that but the US is different. Most of the people I have had this discussion with are from the US so that hasn't been a factor. If it is a matter of education, I respectfully disagree because software developers can go through just as much schooling as other fields.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Hopefully I didn't just make this worse. Again, I mean no offense, I'm just trying to understand.

Software Architect is the new term for engineer in response to those engineer guys having a hissy fit, yeah. I actually like that one a lot more, it's much more clear on what's being done.

I can't wait to hear how architects get on shitting on it though.

Ear3nd1l

bowen wrote: »

What about edge cases like nuclear engineers? They're not mechanical and you'd have to REALLY stretch to call them geoscientists.

What about Sanitation Engineers?

Orca

Ear3nd1l wrote: »

bowen wrote: »

What about edge cases like nuclear engineers? They're not mechanical and you'd have to REALLY stretch to call them geoscientists.

What about Sanitation Engineers?

I am now calling for all Software Engineers to call ourselves Sanitation Engineers. It's less misleading.

Echo

I sure shoveled a whole lot of crap a couple of sprints ago.

Spoit

So in Canada is a PE more equivalent to a EIT/FE? Here you need a few hundred hours working under a PE before you can even sit for the test (along with some other educational requirements I'm not remembering at the moment), so it's more that the company needs a few PEs to sign off on stuff. You could still do engineering work before it. Otherwise you wouldn't really have engineer 1 and 2s

Spawnbroker

bowen wrote: »

Ear3nd1l wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why people get so worked up about the term "software engineer." Would the same issue apply to "software architect?" As bowen stated, there is a difference in skill level between someone who designs the architecture of an application and someone who writes said application. Typically when I see this issue brought up, it is by mechanical/electrical/etc engineers who don't like software guys encroaching on their titles (no one in this thread, I mean no offense to anyone). Maybe "engineer" isn't the right term, but then we as an industry should come up with something more appropriate.

If it's the matter of the protected use of the word "engineer", I get that but the US is different. Most of the people I have had this discussion with are from the US so that hasn't been a factor. If it is a matter of education, I respectfully disagree because software developers can go through just as much schooling as other fields.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Hopefully I didn't just make this worse. Again, I mean no offense, I'm just trying to understand.

Software Architect is the new term for engineer in response to those engineer guys having a hissy fit, yeah. I actually like that one a lot more, it's much more clear on what's being done.

I can't wait to hear how architects get on shitting on it though.

In my area of the U.S., every other job listing says software engineer for normal software developers. Software architect is used for a more advanced role of someone who thinks of how all the moving pieces of a large application fit and work together. Usually more years of experience and less hands-on coding.

Orca

Spawnbroker wrote: »

bowen wrote: »

Ear3nd1l wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why people get so worked up about the term "software engineer." Would the same issue apply to "software architect?" As bowen stated, there is a difference in skill level between someone who designs the architecture of an application and someone who writes said application. Typically when I see this issue brought up, it is by mechanical/electrical/etc engineers who don't like software guys encroaching on their titles (no one in this thread, I mean no offense to anyone). Maybe "engineer" isn't the right term, but then we as an industry should come up with something more appropriate.

If it's the matter of the protected use of the word "engineer", I get that but the US is different. Most of the people I have had this discussion with are from the US so that hasn't been a factor. If it is a matter of education, I respectfully disagree because software developers can go through just as much schooling as other fields.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Hopefully I didn't just make this worse. Again, I mean no offense, I'm just trying to understand.

Software Architect is the new term for engineer in response to those engineer guys having a hissy fit, yeah. I actually like that one a lot more, it's much more clear on what's being done.

I can't wait to hear how architects get on shitting on it though.

In my area of the U.S., every other job listing says software engineer for normal software developers. Software architect is used for a more advanced role of someone who thinks of how all the moving pieces of a large application fit and work together. Usually more years of experience and less hands-on coding.

Also infamous for coming up with architectures that have only a passing familiarity with the solution space.

When done right, they can be great! I've seen it done pretty wrong before.

Phyphor

Spoit wrote: »

So in Canada is a PE more equivalent to a EIT/FE? Here you need a few hundred hours working under a PE before you can even sit for the test (along with some other educational requirements I'm not remembering at the moment), so it's more that the company needs a few PEs to sign off on stuff. You could still do engineering work before it. Otherwise you wouldn't really have engineer 1 and 2s

No here there is no formal sub step. You go from engineering graduate which is basically everyone who holds a b.eng to p.eng after the exam

BlazeFire

Phyphor wrote: »

Spoit wrote: »

So in Canada is a PE more equivalent to a EIT/FE? Here you need a few hundred hours working under a PE before you can even sit for the test (along with some other educational requirements I'm not remembering at the moment), so it's more that the company needs a few PEs to sign off on stuff. You could still do engineering work before it. Otherwise you wouldn't really have engineer 1 and 2s

No here there is no formal sub step. You go from engineering graduate which is basically everyone who holds a b.eng to p.eng after the exam

Where is here? I thought every province had Engineer- or Geoscientist-in-Training?

BlazeFire

bowen wrote: »

What about edge cases like nuclear engineers? They're not mechanical and you'd have to REALLY stretch to call them geoscientists.

I found a intermediate nuclear engineer posting in Ontario that requires a mechanical engineering degree or equivalent. Why is it an edge case?