[Education] - Where Silicon Valley Is What's The Matter With Kansas

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    I imagine if this is successful it will create an even more biased system as grades from "bad" schools will just be treated as less than those from "good" schools, and it will be even more about having an in with someone.

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I imagine if this is successful it will create an even more biased system as grades from "bad" schools will just be treated as less than those from "good" schools, and it will be even more about having an in with someone.

    They already do.

    It'll just become more obvious and need to be addressed.

    There's already a really weird inflationary system for college applications where every applicant feels like they have to do n+1 activities and take a bunch of AP/college level courses.

    It's how you end out with 15 year olds being in school for 10 hours a day and joining a bunch of music clubs and programs instead of being human teenagers. It's beneficial because our society is set up in a way that encourages it, but I'm pretty sure that's not a good thing. Some people love it, most people I know did not. With the evaporation of trade schools and such though, the idea that the only success is college has been made true.


    Edit:

    I'm not against aptitude testing or even standardized testing, the results should be entirely confidential and only used to determine the effectiveness of the teaching - no student should be given a number that says they suck at a subject.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They mostly use grades up here. The better programs will also have maybe a test or the like. But it's mostly just grades.

    It ends up working ok. I would say the problem is mostly towards the top, where the variance between what grades you get because of what school you went to can mean you do or don't get big scholarships or the like.

    In general my experience is that a lot of people had grades that were inflated by going to a school that either taught less or gave grades easier.

    Also you can just get the school admin fudging grades to help it's students out. Not unknown afaik especially in the private high schools.

    See, I'm not sure that's the best idea either. With each state and each school district within each state having different rules on grading, there's no real consensus over what constitutes good grades or not. That doesn't even get into districts that have weighted grades vs those that don't. It's almost as if an independent testing body is needed to smooth the curves to get a good measure. Too bad we live in a gilded age of assholery.

    Canadian schools have essentially zero issues with this sort of thing. Standardized tests for postsecondary here tend to only (sometimes) be a thing in professional postgraduate programs - people take them if they're going to med school or are chasing an MBA or something, but your typical undergrad or graduate student doesn't see them.

    I'm not really convinced a college/university or network of same doesn't have the resources and knowledge necessary to get a decent idea of how individual states teach and evaluate their students.

    mrondeau
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They mostly use grades up here. The better programs will also have maybe a test or the like. But it's mostly just grades.

    It ends up working ok. I would say the problem is mostly towards the top, where the variance between what grades you get because of what school you went to can mean you do or don't get big scholarships or the like.

    In general my experience is that a lot of people had grades that were inflated by going to a school that either taught less or gave grades easier.

    Also you can just get the school admin fudging grades to help it's students out. Not unknown afaik especially in the private high schools.

    See, I'm not sure that's the best idea either. With each state and each school district within each state having different rules on grading, there's no real consensus over what constitutes good grades or not. That doesn't even get into districts that have weighted grades vs those that don't. It's almost as if an independent testing body is needed to smooth the curves to get a good measure. Too bad we live in a gilded age of assholery.

    Canadian schools have essentially zero issues with this sort of thing. Standardized tests for postsecondary here tend to only (sometimes) be a thing in professional postgraduate programs - people take them if they're going to med school or are chasing an MBA or something, but your typical undergrad or graduate student doesn't see them.

    I'm not really convinced a college/university or network of same doesn't have the resources and knowledge necessary to get a decent idea of how individual states teach and evaluate their students.

    That only shoves the problem down a level, it doesn't get rid of it. But here is where I feel we get into the greater politics of the situation. Especially in this time where states are loathed to increase taxes, especially for higher education and doubly so in states that already struggle with properly funding primary education. Such as the thread titled Kansas. It's taken us residents nearly a decade of fighting and multiple court cases to get the GOP dominated legislature to budge. Getting them to increase secondary funding to the level where the state could afford the effort needed to survey, compile, and statistically make sense of the 300+ districts in Kansas alone would take years. That's just one state. That's not the rest of the US. Networking that information together would require multiple states to pass additional laws to let that happen, which requires agreement in different state parties that are often at cross purposes. Why let another state have your student information if that helps them get more college students?

    But most of all this almost calls for federal control of standardization across all states which isn't going to be happening any time soon. Since the GOP is of the opinion that the Department of Education shouldn't exist since there's no constitutional mandate that it should. Or a constitutional mandate for there to be public education.

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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    So to be a counselor you have to take one of those standardized tests as well. It is largely seen as a bit of a joke in the profession though for the reasons listed here. It just doesn't match with anything you do in the field. It is seen as a hurdle to move past as quickly as you can.

    The PE, physician, dental, counseling, and social work exams are all also not sole determining factors on anything. Each requires a level of experience and doing the work in a supervised setting before they let you become a full member of the profession. I suspect other professions have similar set-ups, but I can't confirm it off hand. None of this seems capable of being translated into the ACT or SAT.

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They mostly use grades up here. The better programs will also have maybe a test or the like. But it's mostly just grades.

    It ends up working ok. I would say the problem is mostly towards the top, where the variance between what grades you get because of what school you went to can mean you do or don't get big scholarships or the like.

    In general my experience is that a lot of people had grades that were inflated by going to a school that either taught less or gave grades easier.

    Also you can just get the school admin fudging grades to help it's students out. Not unknown afaik especially in the private high schools.

    See, I'm not sure that's the best idea either. With each state and each school district within each state having different rules on grading, there's no real consensus over what constitutes good grades or not. That doesn't even get into districts that have weighted grades vs those that don't. It's almost as if an independent testing body is needed to smooth the curves to get a good measure. Too bad we live in a gilded age of assholery.

    Canadian schools have essentially zero issues with this sort of thing. Standardized tests for postsecondary here tend to only (sometimes) be a thing in professional postgraduate programs - people take them if they're going to med school or are chasing an MBA or something, but your typical undergrad or graduate student doesn't see them.

    I'm not really convinced a college/university or network of same doesn't have the resources and knowledge necessary to get a decent idea of how individual states teach and evaluate their students.

    Sure. And their evaluation will be that all the students from states or cities or even school districts with poor schools can get bent because it's not worth the trouble, they get too many applicants as it is.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    I mean

    This is mostly only a problem because half the people in the country keep electing assholes who want education to be broken for various reasons (o be fair Dems can be really stupid about education too)

    It’s entirely possible to have good, widespread standards for primary education and accessible, affordable college

    It’s really fucking good for the country, too!

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    And the administration is going to combat antisemitism by implementing antisemitic policy:
    President Trump plans to sign an executive order on Wednesday targeting what he sees as anti-Semitism on college campuses by threatening to withhold federal money from educational institutions that fail to combat discrimination, three administration officials said on Tuesday.

    The order will effectively interpret Judaism as a nationality, not just a religion, to trigger a federal law penalizing colleges and universities deemed to be shirking their responsibility to foster an open climate for minority students, according to the officials, who insisted on anonymity to discuss the matter before the announcement.

    In signing the order, Mr. Trump will use his executive power to take action where Congress has not, essentially replicating bipartisan legislation that has stalled on Capitol Hill for years. Prominent Democrats have joined Republicans in promoting such a policy change at a time of rising tension on campuses over anti-Semitism as well as the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions or B.D.S. movement against Israel.

    But critics have complained that such a policy could be used to stifle free speech and legitimate opposition to Israel’s policies toward Palestinians in the name of fighting anti-Semitism. The definition of anti-Semitism to be used in the order, which matches the one used by the State Department, has been criticized as too open-ended and sweeping.

    Emphasis to point out where the problem is. As a law professor put it:

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    The Professional Engineer exam (PE) isn't standardized. It is administered at a state level and the difficulty varies by state. There's a reason why you see a lot of PEs certified in Texas even though the individual doesn't (and may never have) lived in Texas. And just like the SAT/ACT, you can spend $100s on exam prep books, practice problems, etc. And even more if you hire a tutor.

    I can't speak to the other tests, but the PE definitely suffers the same issues. You don't hear about it as much because it affects a great deal fewer individuals, and because to take the PE you've had to pass the Fundamentals of Engineering exam (FE) and worked under a PE for several years. Engineers investing that much time into obtaining their PE aren't going to risk throwing it all away.

    Also, to work as an engineer, you don't have to have a PE. It's only required for some legal things. I've been an engineer for 13 years without having a PE.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They mostly use grades up here. The better programs will also have maybe a test or the like. But it's mostly just grades.

    It ends up working ok. I would say the problem is mostly towards the top, where the variance between what grades you get because of what school you went to can mean you do or don't get big scholarships or the like.

    In general my experience is that a lot of people had grades that were inflated by going to a school that either taught less or gave grades easier.

    Also you can just get the school admin fudging grades to help it's students out. Not unknown afaik especially in the private high schools.

    See, I'm not sure that's the best idea either. With each state and each school district within each state having different rules on grading, there's no real consensus over what constitutes good grades or not. That doesn't even get into districts that have weighted grades vs those that don't. It's almost as if an independent testing body is needed to smooth the curves to get a good measure. Too bad we live in a gilded age of assholery.

    Canadian schools have essentially zero issues with this sort of thing. Standardized tests for postsecondary here tend to only (sometimes) be a thing in professional postgraduate programs - people take them if they're going to med school or are chasing an MBA or something, but your typical undergrad or graduate student doesn't see them.

    I'm not really convinced a college/university or network of same doesn't have the resources and knowledge necessary to get a decent idea of how individual states teach and evaluate their students.

    Sure. And their evaluation will be that all the students from states or cities or even school districts with poor schools can get bent because it's not worth the trouble, they get too many applicants as it is.

    Yeah no, this is ridiculous. I don't buy for an instant that universities are suddenly going to start saying "welp, not accepting applicants from Mississippi anymore."

  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They mostly use grades up here. The better programs will also have maybe a test or the like. But it's mostly just grades.

    It ends up working ok. I would say the problem is mostly towards the top, where the variance between what grades you get because of what school you went to can mean you do or don't get big scholarships or the like.

    In general my experience is that a lot of people had grades that were inflated by going to a school that either taught less or gave grades easier.

    Also you can just get the school admin fudging grades to help it's students out. Not unknown afaik especially in the private high schools.

    See, I'm not sure that's the best idea either. With each state and each school district within each state having different rules on grading, there's no real consensus over what constitutes good grades or not. That doesn't even get into districts that have weighted grades vs those that don't. It's almost as if an independent testing body is needed to smooth the curves to get a good measure. Too bad we live in a gilded age of assholery.

    Canadian schools have essentially zero issues with this sort of thing. Standardized tests for postsecondary here tend to only (sometimes) be a thing in professional postgraduate programs - people take them if they're going to med school or are chasing an MBA or something, but your typical undergrad or graduate student doesn't see them.

    I'm not really convinced a college/university or network of same doesn't have the resources and knowledge necessary to get a decent idea of how individual states teach and evaluate their students.

    Sure. And their evaluation will be that all the students from states or cities or even school districts with poor schools can get bent because it's not worth the trouble, they get too many applicants as it is.

    Yeah no, this is ridiculous. I don't buy for an instant that universities are suddenly going to start saying "welp, not accepting applicants from Mississippi anymore."

    If Mississippi proves to have a shitty public education system? Yup, they would. What benefit would taking a student from such a place provide the University at the financial level? Miss. residency isn't a diversity requirement nor a financial aid recipient by citizenship, so why would a University take on the extra burden that such a student will place upon the system? Universities already exploit labor at all levels to maximize administrative gain (see all the labor exploitation from teachers to actual students), so what administrative gain exists by taking on such a burdensome student?

    Maybe to create state liaisons for incoming students from each respective state? I can see administration creating a department that houses several overpaid 'advisors' that act as points of contact for each state, so maybe that would be the financial incentive. But then where would they gather the money in order to pay these placeholder positions? Higher tuition? Require room and board? Create more academic hiring freezes throughout various departments that don't receive ample amounts of grant funding?

    So yeah, I can totally see Universities avoiding such students until some lucrative president with "business experience" comes in and creates even more administrative bloat (which then is filled with people who know the president, friends or friends of friends or favors) to justify the extra burden placed upon the Uni.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Professor demands black student change seats, calls cops when student refuses:
    Professor Shaheen Borna at Ball State University in Indiana called the cops on Sultan Benson, one of his students. Benson’s crime? Refusing to switch seats midway through class. Benson told NBC in a series of messages that when he arrived to class the seat he typically sits in was taken by another student so the professor told him to sit in the back of class, which he did. Midway through the lecture, a student left class. “Once she was gone he continued the lesson and about 5 minutes later he asked me to move to her seat in the front row,” said Benson. Benson asked why, and the professor wouldn’t give him an answer and eventually told him that either he would have to move or he would call the police. Judging by the headline of this article, I’m sure you know what happened next. Below is a video of the incident.


    So this is utterly unacceptable, and compounded by the school taking no serious action against the professor.

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  • FeriluceFeriluce Adrift on the morning star. Aberdeen, WARegistered User regular
    A Republican WA State rep who is local to my town/county is introducing a backwards ass bill.

    https://www.thedailyworld.com/news/rep-walsh-introduces-bill-to-reduce-classroom-disruptions/

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Feriluce wrote: »
    A Republican WA State rep who is local to my town/county is introducing a backwards ass bill.

    https://www.thedailyworld.com/news/rep-walsh-introduces-bill-to-reduce-classroom-disruptions/
    HB 2930 defines isolation as “restricting the student alone within a room or any other form or enclosure” and restraint as “physical intervention or force used to control a student, including the use of a restraint device.” Restraint devices include but are not limited to “metal handcuffs, plastic ties, ankle restraints, leather cuffs, other hospital type restraints, pepper spray, tasers, or batons.”

    What.

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Feriluce wrote: »
    A Republican WA State rep who is local to my town/county is introducing a backwards ass bill.

    https://www.thedailyworld.com/news/rep-walsh-introduces-bill-to-reduce-classroom-disruptions/
    HB 2930 defines isolation as “restricting the student alone within a room or any other form or enclosure” and restraint as “physical intervention or force used to control a student, including the use of a restraint device.” Restraint devices include but are not limited to “metal handcuffs, plastic ties, ankle restraints, leather cuffs, other hospital type restraints, pepper spray, tasers, or batons.”

    What.
    “I cannot emphasize enough: this proposed policy change was brought to me from teachers. From professionals, working in the classroom. Allowing carefully monitored restraint or seclusion gives them better options for dealing effectively with disruptive events—without disturbing an entire class’s learning,” he said.

    Sure dude, I bet lots of teachers want to tase and pepper spray their students. Also "without disturbing the entire class"? When you kick everybody out of the room to assault a teenager?

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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    Feriluce wrote: »
    A Republican WA State rep who is local to my town/county is introducing a backwards ass bill.

    https://www.thedailyworld.com/news/rep-walsh-introduces-bill-to-reduce-classroom-disruptions/
    HB 2930 defines isolation as “restricting the student alone within a room or any other form or enclosure” and restraint as “physical intervention or force used to control a student, including the use of a restraint device.” Restraint devices include but are not limited to “metal handcuffs, plastic ties, ankle restraints, leather cuffs, other hospital type restraints, pepper spray, tasers, or batons.”

    What.
    “I cannot emphasize enough: this proposed policy change was brought to me from teachers. From professionals, working in the classroom. Allowing carefully monitored restraint or seclusion gives them better options for dealing effectively with disruptive events—without disturbing an entire class’s learning,” he said.

    Sure dude, I bet lots of teachers want to tase and pepper spray their students. Also "without disturbing the entire class"? When you kick everybody out of the room to assault a teenager?

    He should let us know who those teachers were.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    I'm going to take a stab and guess "parents."

    Also, for the Bar Exam it's because it's done at the ACT/SAT step, as pretty much every state requires you to have a law degree before you can take the Bar.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    If you don't think this sort of thing exists outside of the US then you have not been paying attention. (For example, "cram schools" are so much A Thing in Japan that they're basically treated like a cliche at this point.)

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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    Essentially everything in Japan from middle school on is 'teaching to the test.' Compulsory education ends in the 9th grade, and then there's an entrance exam for high school*, then one for college. The relationship between schools can mean getting into the right high school gets you into the right college.

    Cram school is the private school you go to after regular school for additional education, sometimes up to an extra days worth, because competition for making the cut for the right school, or making sure a kid can get into a good one, is intense.

    *The drop out rate after middle school is extremely low, like < 3%, but one rural school I worked with, desperate for students, had it's exam after every other school in the prefecture, and the bar for passing was the student put their name on the test, and got 1 answer right.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Good Idea: Teacher corrects student's usage of language.

    Bad Idea: Teacher corrects student's usage of a racial slur:
    A parent is asking for more to be done at Garrard County Middle School after a teacher corrected a student on the "proper" way to use a racial slur.

    The student was in an argument with others, when the word was used.

    "There was some form of an altercation that was verbal," said Patrick Alcorn, parent. "One child called my child the N-word and, from my understanding, the teacher heard it and then she proceeded to correct the child who said it, and said that you're saying it incorrectly, this is how you say it."

    It was hours before school officials called Alcorn, then his child came home to tell him what happened.

    I'd say what the fuck, but I don't think that goes far enough.

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  • ZiggymonZiggymon Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    If you don't think this sort of thing exists outside of the US then you have not been paying attention. (For example, "cram schools" are so much A Thing in Japan that they're basically treated like a cliche at this point.)

    It gets worse though, in the UK for example think tanks look at Scandinavian countries and the changes in education along with places like Japan and South Korea wit the aim of replicating the success.

    However, they literally take the stupidest aspect from it and try to shoehorn it into the current system. This is why schools over here had new builds with open plan work areas instead of classrooms (try teaching a maths test while in the same room music or PE practicals are going on). Or how about academy chains trying to rewrite contracts for existing teachers to force them to run weekend schools and night schools without pay.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 20
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    Quarterly terms is how Australia and New Zealand run a school year and it works fine.

    Average class size in Australia is 22-24, from a quick Googling. I'm lucky to have less than 32.

    Coincidentally, my fifth hour had 24 (I have NO idea how this happened and my colleagues were super jealous), and I could have taught that group for another year without much vacation.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    Quarterly terms is how Australia and New Zealand run a school year and it works fine.

    Average class size in Australia is 22-24, from a quick Googling. I'm lucky to have less than 32.

    Coincidentally, my fifth hour had 24, and I could have taught that group for another year without much vacation.

    I mean, our problems with how we deal with education are Marianas deep. My point wasn't that this would solve the education system, and I apologize if that's how it came across. I suppose the implied "and also we should give our education system the support and funding it deserves" was an implication when it needed to be explicit.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Harris' proposal (which Bernie ended up borrowing, and hopefully Biden will too) to make the minimum salary for a teacher nationwide 65k would be a start.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Harris' proposal (which Bernie ended up borrowing, and hopefully Biden will too) to make the minimum salary for a teacher nationwide 65k would be a start.

    Not really federal jurisdiction..that would probably end up going the same way as the Medicaid expansion.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Harris' proposal (which Bernie ended up borrowing, and hopefully Biden will too) to make the minimum salary for a teacher nationwide 65k would be a start.

    Not really federal jurisdiction..that would probably end up going the same way as the Medicaid expansion.

    You could pretty easily coerce the state governments if you wanted to, like they did with the drinking age.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Harris' proposal (which Bernie ended up borrowing, and hopefully Biden will too) to make the minimum salary for a teacher nationwide 65k would be a start.

    Not really federal jurisdiction..that would probably end up going the same way as the Medicaid expansion.

    You could pretty easily coerce the state governments if you wanted to, like they did with the drinking age.

    Could, but you'd also need to do a major overhaul of how school districts are funded. Or just have the federal government pony up the cash.

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Ziggymon wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    I actually did really well on SAT/ACTs. I was just good at those kind of tests. Because yeah, it's so far removed from a measurement of an ability to succeed that they should have been removed a while ago.

    I have no idea what is a good replacement. I wouldn't have thought GPA was honest/standard enough, but apparently according to y'all it works well? That's good then.

    I tested into orgo at Michigan without taking chemistry in high school. ^BAD^ Standardized tests measure your ability to take a test and literally nothing else.

    Therein lies the problem. That whole teaching to a test mentality that the US has. Other countries, hell, most of Europe has standardized tests to help with college placements and they don't seem to have the same trouble with assholes trying to rig up a rent-seeking situation the way that has happened here.

    There's also the PE, the Bar Exam, dental and physician boards, and accountants which administer standardized tests to determine worthiness to get into those professions that don't seem to suffer the same problem. So it's possible. The question is why the ACT/SAT seem to have allowed themselves to get drawn into these fights where lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors haven't.

    If you don't think this sort of thing exists outside of the US then you have not been paying attention. (For example, "cram schools" are so much A Thing in Japan that they're basically treated like a cliche at this point.)

    It gets worse though, in the UK for example think tanks look at Scandinavian countries and the changes in education along with places like Japan and South Korea wit the aim of replicating the success.

    However, they literally take the stupidest aspect from it and try to shoehorn it into the current system. This is why schools over here had new builds with open plan work areas instead of classrooms (try teaching a maths test while in the same room music or PE practicals are going on). Or how about academy chains trying to rewrite contracts for existing teachers to force them to run weekend schools and night schools without pay.

    That sounds like trying to find the "One Neat Trick" to solve education, instead of looking at it as a complicated interconnected system.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And speaking of testing, the University of California system has announced that they are going to stop using the SAT and ACT in admissions:
    The University of California on Thursday voted to phase out the SAT and ACT as requirements to apply to its system of 10 schools, which include some of the nation’s most popular campuses, in a decision with major implications for the use of standardized tests in college admissions.

    Given the size and influence of the California system, whose marquee schools include the University of California, Los Angeles, and the University of California, Berkeley, the move is expected to accelerate the momentum of American colleges away from the tests, amid charges that they are unfair to poor, black and Hispanic students.

    The school system’s action, which follows many small liberal arts colleges, comes as the ACT and the College Board, a nonprofit organization that administers the SAT, are suffering financially from the cancellation of test dates during the coronavirus pandemic. One critic of the industry estimated that the College Board had lost $45 million in revenue this spring.

    This is a sea change and a massive blow to the standardized testing industry.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    And speaking of testing, the University of California system has announced that they are going to stop using the SAT and ACT in admissions:
    The University of California on Thursday voted to phase out the SAT and ACT as requirements to apply to its system of 10 schools, which include some of the nation’s most popular campuses, in a decision with major implications for the use of standardized tests in college admissions.

    Given the size and influence of the California system, whose marquee schools include the University of California, Los Angeles, and the University of California, Berkeley, the move is expected to accelerate the momentum of American colleges away from the tests, amid charges that they are unfair to poor, black and Hispanic students.

    The school system’s action, which follows many small liberal arts colleges, comes as the ACT and the College Board, a nonprofit organization that administers the SAT, are suffering financially from the cancellation of test dates during the coronavirus pandemic. One critic of the industry estimated that the College Board had lost $45 million in revenue this spring.

    This is a sea change and a massive blow to the standardized testing industry.

    Instinctively, I can't help but think this is a good thing.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    And speaking of testing, the University of California system has announced that they are going to stop using the SAT and ACT in admissions:
    The University of California on Thursday voted to phase out the SAT and ACT as requirements to apply to its system of 10 schools, which include some of the nation’s most popular campuses, in a decision with major implications for the use of standardized tests in college admissions.

    Given the size and influence of the California system, whose marquee schools include the University of California, Los Angeles, and the University of California, Berkeley, the move is expected to accelerate the momentum of American colleges away from the tests, amid charges that they are unfair to poor, black and Hispanic students.

    The school system’s action, which follows many small liberal arts colleges, comes as the ACT and the College Board, a nonprofit organization that administers the SAT, are suffering financially from the cancellation of test dates during the coronavirus pandemic. One critic of the industry estimated that the College Board had lost $45 million in revenue this spring.

    This is a sea change and a massive blow to the standardized testing industry.

    Instinctively, I can't help but think this is a good thing.

    Oh, it is. Standardized testing has always been a biased mess that's blocked good students from higher education. Many smaller liberal arts schools ditched standardized testing years ago. But the UC is one of the largest and most prestigious college systems in the US - their move here is going to make other schools rethink standardized tests.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    SAT is a shit predictor of successful completion. When I worked in admissions we usually noted it on the form and ignored it in decision making over things like GPA, success in taking advanced coursework, and volunteer hours (all of which had stronger indicators historically).

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    SAT is a shit predictor of successful completion. When I worked in admissions we usually noted it on the form and ignored it in decision making over things like GPA, success in taking advanced coursework, and volunteer hours (all of which had stronger indicators historically).

    The fact that colleges look so favorably on volunteer hours but not work history is another one of those fun little bits of classism that plague admissions.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    SAT is a shit predictor of successful completion. When I worked in admissions we usually noted it on the form and ignored it in decision making over things like GPA, success in taking advanced coursework, and volunteer hours (all of which had stronger indicators historically).

    The fact that colleges look so favorably on volunteer hours but not work history is another one of those fun little bits of classism that plague admissions.

    I’m sure that volunteer work is a great indicator of success in college because it shows that the student’s family is rich enough that the student will not need to have a job to support themselves and will be able to devote all their time to study.

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    SAT is a shit predictor of successful completion. When I worked in admissions we usually noted it on the form and ignored it in decision making over things like GPA, success in taking advanced coursework, and volunteer hours (all of which had stronger indicators historically).

    The fact that colleges look so favorably on volunteer hours but not work history is another one of those fun little bits of classism that plague admissions.

    I’m sure that volunteer work is a great indicator of success in college because it shows that the student’s family is rich enough that the student will not need to have a job to support themselves and will be able to devote all their time to study.
    Or atleast willing to donate to the college, in a manner that in no way will affect their graduation.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    I've taken neither and have finished my associate's, bachelor's, and probably start my master's soon.

    It's a really weird concept to me.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    SAT is a shit predictor of successful completion. When I worked in admissions we usually noted it on the form and ignored it in decision making over things like GPA, success in taking advanced coursework, and volunteer hours (all of which had stronger indicators historically).

    The fact that colleges look so favorably on volunteer hours but not work history is another one of those fun little bits of classism that plague admissions.

    Not gonna lie, there is certainly a correlation between classism and college success for sure. There is a huge advantage for being second generation college student and that, typically, also comes with a higher income level.

    That said, the university I work at has mandatory acceptance from our 2-year 4-year bride from community colleges so anyone who wants to go to our school can simply by completing their AS or AA degree at our attached and neighboring community college, which offers the same classes, typically with the same professors, for half of our already low state tuition fees. On the side of admissions, there are two schools of thought. There are the business people who run first year admissions and are absolute monsters who look at predictive success in terms of funding. Those are how most places in the Ivy League and such start and stop, just if you have family or have money. No other factors are really looked at.

    Then you have developmental admissions, where admissions looks at determining where the student is going to have the best path to degree completion. My wing was responsible for readmission and low performance students, usually folks that did real bad in high school or college on their first try and now wanted to give it a second go. When we looked at files, we determined who would succeed by tried and true predictive factors, volunteer hours being one. But, honestly, the best thing we looked for was someone taking a single successful course at a community college at some point in their career. Fucked over your high school and barely got a GED? If you then took a semester at a community college and actually got As and Bs you would usually be looked at favorably. If you didn't do that, doing volunteer hours, holding down a job for 2+ years, or a number of other factors also could add up to success. Where the correlation comes isn't usually in income here. It's in persistence. If you are able to fight your way through doing volunteer hours, holding up a job to try to get funds to pay for college, or take community college courses and do well in them that usually means you'll keep that same attitude to make it through your degree. Otherwise we would recommend folks complete their AA or AS at a community college, where it costs less, because if the odds are low they will complete its usually more cruel to let them in, bilk them out of four grand a term, and then disqualify them due to low grades.

    I got ten million perspectives on how to improve the broken university system in the US, and admissions certainly is a piece here, but suggesting that classism is part of the volunteer hours thing is a bit off the mark, especially as its usually part of a wholistic metric. For direct from high-school, first time in college folks, direct employment often counts the same as volunteer hours at most public institutions these days. We are focused on employment as our primary goal.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Also: re classism. The SAT and all of the College Board's products are over-expensive, money-driven operations. The GRE for example is nothing more than a way to require additional funds beyond the already extortionate graduate school costs at no real predictive success compared to things like student performance in undergrad or samples of completed work.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Also, and last thought, if you think the tests are bad the parasitic "beat the test" industry that has grown up around it is disgusting and insane. People pay more money on test prep than they typically spend their freshman year in college in some circles. It's insane.

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